Oblivion Controversy

It seems that of late oblivion has been taking alot of crap. just in that last couple of days i've seen it accused of being shallow, not being an rpg, being generic, etc. at first i thought it was just me who like it, but look at the user score! 9.3 is not somthing to laugh at. very, very few games have acheived such high user AND critic scores. it's like another world, this game, and it is most certainly a rpg. it cound't really be much rpgier. there is as many hours of voice acting in this game as there is gameplay in most. there are so many quests that you can play this game for hundreds of hours and not complete them all. there were even a ton of books written for in game use.

now explain to me how this game is shallow, generic, and not an rpg?

Oblivion is not as deep as Morrowind in some departments, and you must first to understand how the game mechanics works or the auto-levelling will crush you, but besides this once you micro your character building the game is outstandindg.

Also, the Dark Brotherhood Guild quests are 10 times better than all Assassin's Creed; not only because the better screenplay but because the huge amount of options, different tactics and variety of missions and the way in that you can complete it.

Taking in account the nice graphics, the gameplay, the secondary quests -the main quest is weak- and the amount of things that you can do in the game, mixed with his great difussion (PC, 360, PS3) is not a surprise his success.

Excuse my english :p

The criticism that Oblivion gets is mostly nonsense. Oblivion is an outstanding RPG, maybe the best ever!Timberwolf5578

Damn straight! i'm glad i'm not the only one....

anyways, i thought the combat is what truly made oblivion so great. why would you want to play a rpg that has point and click combat? morrowind was fantastic, just slightly lower in my list of top 10 games, but the combat was just awful, and i felt that to much of the map was taken up by the central area, which was pretty much devoid of all life. i find that wandering around the forests in oblivion never really seemed all that great until i could crank the settings up. now that i can, i just love wandering around in the forests which seem utterly organic, the long waving grass, the nice green trees, it just seems so alive. i agree about the characters, but i spend most of my time in this game out in the wilderness, hunting, and collecting, as long as i stay out of the cities, this game just really does it for me.

The criticism that Oblivion gets is mostly nonsense. Oblivion is an outstanding RPG, maybe the best ever!Timberwolf5578

Oh my...

It seems that of late oblivion has been taking alot of crap. just in that last couple of days i've seen it accused of being shallow, not being an rpg, being generic, etc. at first i thought it was just me who like it, but look at the user score! 9.3 is not somthing to laugh at. very, very few games have acheived such high user AND critic scores. it's like another world, this game, and it is most certainly a rpg. it cound't really be much rpgier. there is as many hours of voice acting in this game as there is gameplay in most. there are so many quests that you can play this game for hundreds of hours and not complete them all. there were even a ton of books written for in game use.

now explain to me how this game is shallow, generic, and not an rpg?

with_teeth26

Actually, it couldn't be less RPGier. Roleplaying games, first and foremost, are about choice. You build a character and then you play that character the way you want to play it.

Take Fallout as an example. There's an early quest where you have to rescue a girl (if you choose to), and you can:

Go in fighting, kill her captors and rescue her

Go in peacably and trade for her

Go in stealthily, lockpick her cage and sneak out

Challenge their leader to a one on one bareknuckle fight

Trick them into thinking that you're the returned father of their leader (I've never actually done this but my friend says you can do it if you have 10 luck)

That's roleplaying. That's choice. THere's a wide variety of ways to approach any quest based on your character's skills and actions, while in Oblivion your only real choices are how you fight - not if you fight.

Oblivion also has very, very generic dialogue. None of the characters have personalities that set them apart, none have distinct mannerisms that make them feel like real people, and the voice acting was bad. If Troika can hire 51 voice actors for a game with about one fifth as many NPCs as Oblivion, why did Bethesda only hire about 11?

And the character development is completely broken. No matter what class you choose, you will end up with the same heavy-wearing-sword-wielding-magic-using battletank by level 35. My first character was a Conjuration/Archer, who ended up as a battletank. My second character was a freaking Illusion/Destruction/Assassin and he ended up as a battletank. Fundamentally broken character development. Bland NPC personality. Little to no player choice.

[QUOTE="with_teeth26"]

It seems that of late oblivion has been taking alot of crap. just in that last couple of days i've seen it accused of being shallow, not being an rpg, being generic, etc. at first i thought it was just me who like it, but look at the user score! 9.3 is not somthing to laugh at. very, very few games have acheived such high user AND critic scores. it's like another world, this game, and it is most certainly a rpg. it cound't really be much rpgier. there is as many hours of voice acting in this game as there is gameplay in most. there are so many quests that you can play this game for hundreds of hours and not complete them all. there were even a ton of books written for in game use.

now explain to me how this game is shallow, generic, and not an rpg?

mfsa

Actually, it couldn't be less RPGier. Roleplaying games, first and foremost, are about choice. You build a character and then you play that character the way you want to play it.

Take Fallout as an example. There's an early quest where you have to - if you choose to - rescue her, and you can:

Go in fighting, killer her captors and rescue her

Go in peacably and trade for her

Go in stealthily, lockpick her cage and sneak out

Fight their leader in a one on one bareknuckle fight

Trick them into thinking that you're the returned father of their leader

That's roleplaying. That's choice. THere's a wide variety of ways to approach any quest based on your character's skills and actions, while in Oblivion your only real choices are how you fight - not if you fight.

Oblivion also has very, very generic dialogue. None of the characters have personalities that set them apart, none have distinct mannerisms that make them feel like real people, and the voice acting was bad. If Troika can hire 51 voice actors for a game with about one fifth as many NPCs as Oblivion, why did Bethesda only hire about 11?

And the character development is completely broken. No matter what class you choose, you will end up with the same heavy-wearing-sword-wielding-magic-using battletank by level 35. My first character was a Conjuration/Archer, who ended up as a battletank. My second character was a freaking Illusion/Destruction/Assassin and he ended up as a battletank. Fundamentally broken character development. Bland NPC personality. Little to no player choice.

How can anybody claim that vanilla oblivion is the best rpg ever made?

seriously, do you think that NPCs leveling with you should ever be included in an rpg (i.e., you're never provided with a real challenge)? How about the utterly unoriginal main quest (destroy 15 oblivion gates and kill the main boss). How about enchanted items that can total up and give you +115% invisibility (well now you're invisible even if you attack).

Sorry, but while i loved daggerfall and morrowind, i just didn't consider oblivion to be a great game. Sure it was a good game but i just can't see how anyone can play vanilla oblivion and consider it to be the greatest rpg ever made.

Is there a new Oblivion out?

Or are you talking about the 2006 game? How can there be much controversy about a game that is 2 years old? Maybe its time to move on to some new games?

Both Morrowind and Oblivion have their strengths and weaknesses.

I played Oblivion with mods like Oscuros Oblivion Overhaul and interface mods, and I really enjoyed it. I easily put in over a thousand hours with a number of different characters doing different quest lines. I just wish the PC version had been like that out of the box, because I didn't enjoy the vanilla game as much.

However, I'm still going to go out on a limb here and offer some food for thought to the naysayers. How many other games on this scale can you name that allow you to add extra content or radically change the content of the single player campaign through mods? I'm not talking about making a single player level to play separately as with other games - but actually going in and rewriting parts of the single player campaign that shipped. You have to give Bethesda some credit for putting that kind of power into the hands of the end gamer, because you can pretty much mod the game so that it plays completely differently.

The other thing that ticks me off is people who rant about it not being an RPG, when in fact it forms a very nice foundation for actual role playing. You can choose to be whatever you want to be, without some of the stupid restrictions that come with other RPG games. If you end up being a master of everything - then that is frankly your fault for the way you chose to play your character in the game. When I've played different characters I've placed MY OWN restrictions on what they can or cannot do because that is how I am ROLE PLAYING that character. I find it refreshing not having a dev leaning over my shoulder every two minutes saying 'you can't do this and you can't do that because you chose class X'. I've played a few D&D games in my time, and I find the lack of restrictions refreshing. You don't have to become master of every skill or every guild unless YOU CHOOSE to do so.

Certainly the game could have done with more depth to the main quest and certain side quests, and yes the dialogue is repeated by some of the characters, but how is that different to other games (including Morrowind) where you end up reading the same vanilla responses to your questions from characters in the game world? I can't think of a single RPG where all the character dialogue is completely different for every single character in the game. Morrowind is even more guilty of this than other RPGs, where nearly every character can give you the same information over and over again. Yet I never see that criticised.

Could Oblivion have been better than the game that shipped? Absolutely! But it's not the mangy dog that many people like to kick around, especially if you use the mods freely available in the community. If you ignore the mods and just criticise the core game, then frankly I think you're being a hypocrite as a PC gamer, because one of the key strengths of the PC as a gaming platform is it's ability to mod games (and I see many PC gamers throwing around that argument against consoles).

Just to finish, I wish that quite a few games in my collection could be modded as easily as Oblivion, because there is always something niggling that gets under my skin after a while and makes me want to twist it back into shape to fit the way I want to play. I definitely feel that I got my money's worth with Oblivion, especially at a time when most games are becoming flash-in-a-pan experiences.

[QUOTE="with_teeth26"]

It seems that of late oblivion has been taking alot of crap. just in that last couple of days i've seen it accused of being shallow, not being an rpg, being generic, etc. at first i thought it was just me who like it, but look at the user score! 9.3 is not somthing to laugh at. very, very few games have acheived such high user AND critic scores. it's like another world, this game, and it is most certainly a rpg. it cound't really be much rpgier. there is as many hours of voice acting in this game as there is gameplay in most. there are so many quests that you can play this game for hundreds of hours and not complete them all. there were even a ton of books written for in game use.

now explain to me how this game is shallow, generic, and not an rpg?

mfsa

Actually, it couldn't be less RPGier. Roleplaying games, first and foremost, are about choice. You build a character and then you play that character the way you want to play it.

Take Fallout as an example. There's an early quest where you have to rescue a girl (if you choose to), and you can:

Go in fighting, kill her captors and rescue her

Go in peacably and trade for her

Go in stealthily, lockpick her cage and sneak out

Challenge their leader to a one on one bareknuckle fight

Trick them into thinking that you're the returned father of their leader (I've never actually done this but my friend says you can do it if you have 10 luck)

That's roleplaying. That's choice. THere's a wide variety of ways to approach any quest based on your character's skills and actions, while in Oblivion your only real choices are how you fight - not if you fight.

Oblivion also has very, very generic dialogue. None of the characters have personalities that set them apart, none have distinct mannerisms that make them feel like real people, and the voice acting was bad. If Troika can hire 51 voice actors for a game with about one fifth as many NPCs as Oblivion, why did Bethesda only hire about 11?

And the character development is completely broken. No matter what class you choose, you will end up with the same heavy-wearing-sword-wielding-magic-using battletank by level 35. My first character was a Conjuration/Archer, who ended up as a battletank. My second character was a freaking Illusion/Destruction/Assassin and he ended up as a battletank. Fundamentally broken character development. Bland NPC personality. Little to no player choice.

thank you. finally a usefull post. to be honest, and this may explain a lot, i havent played baldurs gate, fallout, etc. as i have only been gaming since about 2002, and i don't normally even play rpg games. i usually play firt person shooters, and occasionally an rts game. so for me, oblivion seems like the most rpg like rpg out there compared to most of the games i play.i didn't notice the battletank thing because thats what i set out to have my character become. a battletank capable of destroying anything or anyone. i must disagree with you on the attitude bit though. while many of the characters have little personallity, there are some that have personallity up the kazoo. Sheogorath, for example, in shivering isles, was quite a character. same with some of the other in that expansion. some of the character you find in the citys are great, as well as some in the main quest line. plus, any good voice actor should be able to do multiple voices, they just hired crappy ones for this game. oh well. i'm probably contradicting myself.

However, I'm still going to go out on a limb here and offer some food for thought to the naysayers. How many other games on this scale can you name that allow you to add extra content or radically change the content of the single player campaign through mods? I'm not talking about making a single player level to play separately as with other games - but actually going in and rewriting parts of the single player campaign that shipped. You have to give Bethesda some credit for putting that kind of power into the hands of the end gamer, because you can pretty much mod the game so that it plays completely differently.RobertBowen

I don't think anyone (or certainly not too many people) is disputing the game's quality, just its quality as a roleplaying game. I love Oblivion - just not as an RPG.

The other thing that ticks me off is people who rant about it not being an RPG, when in fact it forms a very nice foundation for actual role playing. You can choose to be whatever you want to be, without some of the stupid restrictions that come with other RPG games.RobertBowen

Well, to me, roleplaying is about choice. And if you have the choice of choosing everything, you aren't really making a choice. The very concept of building a personalised character doesn't exist if you don't really have to make choices. I really think choices are the best thing in the world. Pizza or Ice cream - what a choice! It's a difficult decision because you can only have one, but they're both great. By choosing one, you have accomplished something and personalised something. By not having to choose, you're doing the absolute opposite. I see that as the antithesis of roleplaying.

What's the difference between a 'roleplaying game' where you can max out all your skills and a FPS where you can get all the weapons?

If you end up being a master of everything - then that is frankly your fault for the way you chose to play your character in the game.RobertBowen

It's just as easy to argue that it's the rulemaker's fault for not making any.

When I've played different characters I've placed MY OWN restrictions on what they can or cannot do because that is how I am ROLE PLAYING that character. I find it refreshing not having a dev leaning over my shoulder every two minutes saying 'you can't do this and you can't do that because you chose class X'. I've played a few D&D games in my time, and I find the lack of restrictions refreshing. You don't have to become master of every skill or every guild unless YOU CHOOSE to do so. RobertBowen

Okay, so the lack of restrictions (and by my own definition, choice, because too much choice comes full circle and ends up as no choice) on character building is great and all, but there's a lot more to roleplaying than how you build your character. There are crazy huge developer restrictions on how you play the game in Oblivion. There's very few dialogue options, there's very few (if any) alternatives when it comes to different ways to do quests. Your only real choice is how you fight, not if you fight. So what roleplaying are you actually doing? You do the quest the one way Bethesda decided it should be done, or you don't do it. That's not what I think of when I think of roleplaying.

Certainly the game could have done with more depth to the main quest and certain side quests, and yes the dialogue is repeated by some of the characters, but how is that different to other games (including Morrowind) where you end up reading the same vanilla responses to your questions from characters in the game world?RobertBowen

Two points - firstly, Oblivion is, as far as roleplaying games go, on the technological speartip, and Bethesda had no shortage of resources. The standards have changed between 1997 and 2006 - what was acceptable then should not be acceptable today, in my opinion. Secondly, Bloodlines is a good example of a game with no (or a very, very small amount of) vanilla dialogue - you couldn't even speak with tertiary characters. And all of the primary and secondary characters had unique personalities with unique dialogue.

I can't think of a single RPG where all the character dialogue is completely different for every single character in the game. Morrowind is even more guilty of this than other RPGs, where nearly every character can give you the same information over and over again. Yet I never see that criticised.

[QUOTE="mfsa"][QUOTE="with_teeth26"]

It seems that of late oblivion has been taking alot of crap. just in that last couple of days i've seen it accused of being shallow, not being an rpg, being generic, etc. at first i thought it was just me who like it, but look at the user score! 9.3 is not somthing to laugh at. very, very few games have acheived such high user AND critic scores. it's like another world, this game, and it is most certainly a rpg. it cound't really be much rpgier. there is as many hours of voice acting in this game as there is gameplay in most. there are so many quests that you can play this game for hundreds of hours and not complete them all. there were even a ton of books written for in game use.

now explain to me how this game is shallow, generic, and not an rpg?

with_teeth26

Actually, it couldn't be less RPGier. Roleplaying games, first and foremost, are about choice. You build a character and then you play that character the way you want to play it.

Take Fallout as an example. There's an early quest where you have to rescue a girl (if you choose to), and you can:

Go in fighting, kill her captors and rescue her

Go in peacably and trade for her

Go in stealthily, lockpick her cage and sneak out

Challenge their leader to a one on one bareknuckle fight

Trick them into thinking that you're the returned father of their leader (I've never actually done this but my friend says you can do it if you have 10 luck)

That's roleplaying. That's choice. THere's a wide variety of ways to approach any quest based on your character's skills and actions, while in Oblivion your only real choices are how you fight - not if you fight.

Oblivion also has very, very generic dialogue. None of the characters have personalities that set them apart, none have distinct mannerisms that make them feel like real people, and the voice acting was bad. If Troika can hire 51 voice actors for a game with about one fifth as many NPCs as Oblivion, why did Bethesda only hire about 11?

And the character development is completely broken. No matter what class you choose, you will end up with the same heavy-wearing-sword-wielding-magic-using battletank by level 35. My first character was a Conjuration/Archer, who ended up as a battletank. My second character was a freaking Illusion/Destruction/Assassin and he ended up as a battletank. Fundamentally broken character development. Bland NPC personality. Little to no player choice.

thank you. finally a usefull post. to be honest,

How is this useful over the others? I think the other post were just as significent and useful to answering your question and they fit the criteria. Anyways, I don't count TSI in with Oblivion. Why? Because I think they realised how bad they messed up with Oblivion and tried to redeem something out of the game. That is why TSI is leaps and bounds ahead of Vanilla in terms of an immersive world.

well, honestly (i can feel a suspension/moderation, it's in the air; can't you feel it?) everyone else came of as a total prick when they tried to explain it. mfsa actually explained it in reasonable terms, instead of just bashing it with personal prejudice.

well, honestly (i can feel a suspension/moderation, it's in the air; can't you feel it?) everyone else came of as a total prick when they tried to explain it. mfsa actually explained it in reasonable terms, instead of just bashing it with personal prejudice.

with_teeth26

Well I don't think it was so much as personal prejudice. I loved the game at first and then I kinda meh... I can't play it anymore and I can't accpet it as an RPG. [unmodded] I have to agree though some of the post were a bit aggressive... including mine...

its one of the best games ever

end of story :)

never heard of anyone who didnt like this game until now, its amazing

gahh, now i feel bad. i have such a short temper...

on a different note, msfa, your scottish!!! sweet. (watched one of your video reviews, regognized the accent). typical of a scotsman to understand another scotsman.

well, honestly (i can feel a suspension/moderation, it's in the air; can't you feel it?) everyone else came of as a total prick when they tried to explain it. mfsa actually explained it in reasonable terms, instead of just bashing it with personal prejudice.

with_teeth26

woah, who was being a total prick ? no need to call the rest of us names when we haven't done anything but answer your question.

i agree mfsa's answer is very good, but we tried to give our opinions. don't hate on us cuz we couldn't explain it better than mfsa.

edit: what the heck? i tried putting a question mark after the word prick (the reason for the 5 edits) and it wouldn't let me do it. weird... i ended up having to put a space in between.

Hmm, well, Oblivion is my favorite 360 game. It's also the third highest rated RPG on gamerankings. Baldur's Gate 2 was reviewed by 36 sources and has an aggregate rating of 94%. Oblivion was reviewed by 104 sources and has an aggregate rating of 93.8%. If Baldur's Gate 2 had been reviewed by those other 68 sources, I guarantee you that it wouldn't have as high a rating as Oblivion. How come so many people who review games for a living like Oblivion so much? Oh, I know, because it's an amazing RPG. Duh!

And as far as Oblivion not being an RPG, well, hmm, hit points, attributes, monsters, items, weapons, skills, and a quest. Well, gee, sure sounds like an RPG to me. And an awesome one at that. Oblivion RULES!

Hmm, well, Oblivion is my favorite 360 game. It's also the third highest rated RPG on gamerankings. Baldur's Gate 2 was reviewed by 36 sources and has an aggregate rating of 94%. Oblivion was reviewed by 104 sources and has an aggregate rating of 93.8%. If Baldur's Gate 2 had been reviewed by those other 68 sources, I guarantee you that it wouldn't have as high a rating as Oblivion. How come so many people who review games for a living like Oblivion so much? Oh, I know, because it's an amazing RPG. Duh!

And as far as Oblivion not being an RPG, well, hmm, hit points, attributes, monsters, items, weapons, skills, and a quest. Well, gee, sure sounds like an RPG to me. And an awesome one at that. Oblivion RULES!

magdalene1

i seriously don't think that professional game reviewers are any more qualified to give their opinions on games than are other serious gamers. it's not art, after all (as roger ebert said). so i wouldn't put any more weight on what a professional game reviewer has to say than anyone here at the forum.

and hit points, attributes, monsters, items, weapons, skills, and quests do not make an rpg. those are some of the more common features found in an rpg, but stalker featured all of them as well, and not many would call it an rpg.

now explain to me how this game is shallow, generic, and not an rpg?

with_teeth26

Morrowind is the better game then Oblivion. It was alot more in depth and detailed then Oblivion was. There were many regions in Morrowind that had different weather patterns, buildings, cities, culture, and each had a real sense of life. Aragonians and Khajits were really a separate looking race then all the others, they werent changed to look like every other like oblivion.

Comparing Morrowind to Oblivion, it does make it feel it was a little generic.

Ill make this short and sweet

Criticism towards Oblivion comes from two reasons.

1. It claimed to be an RPG. Oblivion is not an RPG any more than a game like STALKER is an RPG. In Oblivion, you get to choose what "class" you want to be (rogue, mage, warrior, hybrids, etc) and you dont get much say about it after that. Your leveling is literally done automatically.

2. Its not Morrowind with better visuals. A lot of people were expecting a games of Morrowind's quality in terms of RPG goodness (see point 1) but it didnt happen. I can empathize; my favorite game is Deus Ex, and I imagine the pain Morrowind lovers feel is the pain I feel towards Deus Ex 2.

Oblivion is a gem for people that didnt know what to expect. If you dont really know what an RPG is (i.e. you had never played Fallout or Icewind Dale or Neverwinter Nights), then chances are Oblivion is RPG enough for you (despite the fact its 95% first person "shooter".

I think thats part of the reason I love Oblivion so much: I never heard of the Elder Scrolls series, and nobody said anything bad about the game. So I bought this awesome game (I admit, hype sold it to me) not knowing what its about, and its blew me away. It was like GTA combined in a fantasy world with a dash of Deus Ex.

[QUOTE="magdalene1"]

Hmm, well, Oblivion is my favorite 360 game. It's also the third highest rated RPG on gamerankings. Baldur's Gate 2 was reviewed by 36 sources and has an aggregate rating of 94%. Oblivion was reviewed by 104 sources and has an aggregate rating of 93.8%. If Baldur's Gate 2 had been reviewed by those other 68 sources, I guarantee you that it wouldn't have as high a rating as Oblivion. How come so many people who review games for a living like Oblivion so much? Oh, I know, because it's an amazing RPG. Duh!

And as far as Oblivion not being an RPG, well, hmm, hit points, attributes, monsters, items, weapons, skills, and a quest. Well, gee, sure sounds like an RPG to me. And an awesome one at that. Oblivion RULES!

fireandcloud

i seriously don't think that professional game reviewers are any more qualified to give their opinions on games than are other serious gamers. it's not art, after all (as roger ebert said). so i wouldn't put anymore weight on what a professional game reviewer has to say than anyone here at the forum.

and hit points, attributes, monsters, items, weapons, skills, and quests do not make an rpg. those are some of the more common features found in an rpg, but stalker featured all of them as well, and not many would call it an rpg.

I agree with you that professional game reviewers are not the be all and end all of gaming, but I feel it does say something when they ALL agree on the high quality of a game.

As to what makes an RPG an RPG, a lot of people have been trumpeting choice. The choice most people have been talking about is a choice of several options that achieve the same outcome, which is about the only choice RPGs have ever really given people. No RPGs allow you to choose an outcome that is not already programmed into the game. So I guess I have to disagree with the choice = RPG equation.

now explain to me how this game is shallow, generic, and not an rpg?

with_teeth26

1. The game is shallow because there is no real challenge. Monster and loot level with you, meaning that on a ratio basis everything is the same. Sure, you might be getting glass armor and an elven sword with uber enchantment, but it doesnt matter because its easily acquired...as you level, baddies and treasure chest level as well.

In addition, the main storyline quest can litrally be beaten by level 5. Thats when I finished it. Took me about three days lol.

2. Generic. I dont know how its generic, to be honest. Dumbed down from its prior form, yes...but generic, no. Oblivion was pretty original imo.

3. Its not an RPG because, well, it just isnt. It has dialogue trees and thats about it. Outside of that it plays exactly like a shooter...like I said, you dont call STALKER an RPG do you? Then why would you call Oblivion one.

No RPGs allow you to choose an outcome that is not already programmed into the game. So I guess I have to disagree with the choice = RPG equation.

magdalene1

of course. it's impossible to choose an outcome that's not already programmed into the game. :| that goes without saying.

and it's certainly NOT true that the choices achieve the same outcome (at least not always). if you're trying to obtain a quest item, you either get it or you don't, in which case all the choices available produce the same outcome. but if you're choosing, say, between saving a girl or letting her die, then the outcome will of course be different depending on your choice. there are more complex examples that i could give from games like fallout and bg2 and so forth, but i'll let the simple example do.

imo, the game looks great and has great gameplay but I just don't feel like the world is really 'alive'. I find most people have dull personalities. Almost little to no emotions and most of the dialogue is re-used. Bash me all you want but if I had to rate this game I would give it no higher than an 8. zerosaber456

[QUOTE="magdalene1"]

No RPGs allow you to choose an outcome that is not already programmed into the game. So I guess I have to disagree with the choice = RPG equation.

fireandcloud

of course. it's impossible to choose an outcome that's not already programmed into the game. :| that goes without saying.

and it's certainly NOT true that the choices achieve the same outcome (at least not always). if you're trying to obtain a quest item, you either get it or you don't, in which case all the choices available produce the same outcome. but if you're choosing, say, between saving a girl or letting her die, then the outcome will of course be different depending on your choice. there are more complex examples that i could give from games like fallout and bg2 and so forth, but i'll let the simple example do.

I think that what bothers me when people dismiss Oblivion is that they often make it seem as if anyone who disagrees with their opinion on the game is simply ridiculous. Well, I really enjoyed it and I think that I generally have very good taste in games. I think that this is why the quality of Oblivion question is so contentious for some people.

As for the choice question, well, I guess I have to agree with you that Oblivion doesn't provide much opportunity to affect outcomes with in game choices. However, it gives you a great deal of choice over what to do and when to do it in the game and I think that this is a sort of choice that is important and somewhat new in RPGs.

[QUOTE="fireandcloud"][QUOTE="magdalene1"]

No RPGs allow you to choose an outcome that is not already programmed into the game. So I guess I have to disagree with the choice = RPG equation.

magdalene1

of course. it's impossible to choose an outcome that's not already programmed into the game. :| that goes without saying.

and it's certainly NOT true that the choices achieve the same outcome (at least not always). if you're trying to obtain a quest item, you either get it or you don't, in which case all the choices available produce the same outcome. but if you're choosing, say, between saving a girl or letting her die, then the outcome will of course be different depending on your choice. there are more complex examples that i could give from games like fallout and bg2 and so forth, but i'll let the simple example do.

I think that what bothers me when people dismiss Oblivion is that they often make it seem as if anyone who disagrees with their opinion on the game is simply ridiculous. Well, I really enjoyed it and I think that I generally have very good taste in games. I think that this is why the quality of Oblivion question is so contentious for some people.

As for the choice question, well, I guess I have to agree with you that Oblivion doesn't provide much opportunity to affect outcomes with in game choices. However, it gives you a great deal of choice over what to do and when to do it in the game and I think that this is a sort of choice that is important and somewhat new in RPGs.

it's just a debate. there are valid points made on both sides. in fact, i was once convinced by someone's argument to give oblivion another try. i had played 5 hours of oblivion at that point; i tried another 5. didn't take unfortunately. i'm definitely going to give it another try someday, but i fear that i won't be convinced even if i did. anyway, just arguing my side, is all.

I really think Oblivion is one of those games that "clicks" with some people and some it doesn't. If you have already invested 10 hours into it and still cannot come around maybe the game just isn't right for you?

I tried really hard to like resident evil 4. No matter how hard I tried I couldn't help but hate that game.

[QUOTE="magdalene1"][QUOTE="fireandcloud"][QUOTE="magdalene1"]

No RPGs allow you to choose an outcome that is not already programmed into the game. So I guess I have to disagree with the choice = RPG equation.

fireandcloud

of course. it's impossible to choose an outcome that's not already programmed into the game. :| that goes without saying.

and it's certainly NOT true that the choices achieve the same outcome (at least not always). if you're trying to obtain a quest item, you either get it or you don't, in which case all the choices available produce the same outcome. but if you're choosing, say, between saving a girl or letting her die, then the outcome will of course be different depending on your choice. there are more complex examples that i could give from games like fallout and bg2 and so forth, but i'll let the simple example do.

I think that what bothers me when people dismiss Oblivion is that they often make it seem as if anyone who disagrees with their opinion on the game is simply ridiculous. Well, I really enjoyed it and I think that I generally have very good taste in games. I think that this is why the quality of Oblivion question is so contentious for some people.

As for the choice question, well, I guess I have to agree with you that Oblivion doesn't provide much opportunity to affect outcomes with in game choices. However, it gives you a great deal of choice over what to do and when to do it in the game and I think that this is a sort of choice that is important and somewhat new in RPGs.

it's just a debate. there are valid points made on both sides. in fact, i was once convinced by someone's argument to give oblivion another try. i had played 5 hours of oblivion at that point; i tried another 5. didn't take unfortunately. i'm definitely going to give it another try someday, but i fear that i won't be convinced even if i did. anyway, just arguing my side, is all.

Don't worry, I didn't take offense at anything you said. I've been thinking about getting back into Oblivion lately (it's been over a year and a half probably since I last played it), but it requires such a time commitment. Anyway, good talking with you.

I really think Oblivion is one of those games that "clicks" with some people and some it doesn't. If you have already invested 10 hours into it and still cannot come around maybe the game just isn't right for you?

I tried really hard to like resident evil 4. No matter how hard I tried I couldn't help but hate that game.

lenson

i spent $50 on it (goty edition), so i'm definitely going to give it another shot. :) but yeah, i think it just might be one of those games that disagrees with me for whatever reason, unfortunately. i think i'm also not a big fan of the first-person perspective in rpgs. i haven't played one that i consider a great game (ultima underworld comes the closest). not sure why that is...

I did even worse. I rented R4 once and bought it twice, Why after I sold it the first time I didn't just let it go I don't know.lenson

lol.

for me, i have to purchase games that are considered by many to be great, even if i have a bad feeling about them. it's the collector in me that prompts me to do that. after hearing what hardcore rpg fans were saying about oblivion, i had a feeling i wouldn't like it much either, but i purchased it anyway, just to give it a try. still, it's nice to have a well-rounded collection. plus, you earn the right to criticize it by having at least tried to play it. ;)

i really liked oblivion but i agree that its choices were limited - no moral options with actual consequences (a la KOTOR), and you really could tell the game was designed with first person combat chiefly in mind as opposed to stealth magic use. i have played through the game as a mage, but it involved too much running away waiting for magicka to replenish for my tastes

and the levelling system sucked - i level up my major skills and that somehow leads to me being underpowered!? a game where you have to pick skills you WONT use as majors in order to control your attribute growth is a little messed up

and the main story could have done with more quest variety - the guild quests were better IMO. i hated closing oblivion gates with a vengeance.

but, despite me whaling on it, i did really enjoy the game. but its more of a first person action-rpg than a true rpg, such as NWN

I really think Oblivion is one of those games that "clicks" with some people and some it doesn't. If you have already invested 10 hours into it and still cannot come around maybe the game just isn't right for you?

I tried really hard to like resident evil 4. No matter how hard I tried I couldn't help but hate that game.

lenson

well said, thats very true. one thing i must agree with and have forgotten about was the leveling system. i hated that, and installed a mod to remove that rather quickly after buying a game. as i said, morrowind was absolutly fantastic, and i get what you are saying about culture, and i agree. it's just that half the map was taken up by that central area that was rather dead and hostile. i usually ended up just sprinting through there using cheats to increase my speed to avoid those bloody bird things, i can't remember there name at the moment.

i urge all of you guys to give it a try, if you thought it was generic and boring, get the shivering isles expansion pack, it was anything but generric and boring.