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And as far as Oblivion not being an RPG, well, hmm, hit points, attributes, monsters, items, weapons, skills, and a quest. Well, gee, sure sounds like an RPG to me. And an awesome one at that. Oblivion RULES!
magdalene1
You just described Deathrow for Xbox... and it's a sports game
[QUOTE="with_teeth26"]now explain to me how this game is shallow, generic, and not an rpg?
mrbojangles25
2. Generic. I dont know how its generic, to be honest. Dumbed down from its prior form, yes...but generic, no. Oblivion was pretty original imo.
I think Generic stems from the landscape. Oblivion looks like Cabella's Big Game Hunter's environment smattered with token Tolkien Creatures. If you look at Morrowind's variety of creatures and even Shivering Isles, You will see quite a few original creatures and creature designs. Oblivion borrowed almost ever creature from previous Elder Scrolls or other established mythology (goblins, minotaurs...)
Generic could also stem for the fact that the landscape and dungeons are randomly generated from a limited tileset and look that way also. Oblivion Gates all look the same, Ruins all look similar, Caves have the same landmarks present in almost every single cave...
It seems that of late oblivion has been taking alot of crap. just in that last couple of days i've seen it accused of being shallow, not being an rpg, being generic, etc. at first i thought it was just me who like it, but look at the user score! 9.3 is not somthing to laugh at. very, very few games have acheived such high user AND critic scores.with_teeth26
Every game has it's critics, and the more popular a game, the more critics feel that - quite rightly - nobody cares what they think. So they deal with that by getting more vocal. People happy with Oblivion won't be going on and on about it, they'll be playing the game.
Generic could also stem for the fact that the landscape and dungeons are randomly generated from a limited tileset and look that way also.
smerlus
No they aren't. The landscape is manually textured. The dungeons are built from pieces similar to a tileset, but everything is hand-placed including the pieces that make up te dungeons.
[QUOTE="smerlus"]Generic could also stem for the fact that the landscape and dungeons are randomly generated from a limited tileset and look that way also.
BladeMaster84
No they aren't. The landscape is manually textured. The dungeons are built from pieces similar to a tileset, but everything is hand-placed including the pieces that make up te dungeons.
Procedurally assistedThe world's topography is roughly painted by an author. Procedural algorithms, such as rainfall erosion, are applied to the author's topography, producing gullies and streams.Hand-generatedThe forest type (evergreen, deciduous, grasslands, etc.) is painted on the topography by the author.ProceduralIndividual trees, shrubs, and grasses are procedurally placed at run-time.Hand-generatedMonster encounter sites are placed by hand, but in a somewhat random pattern. Monsters tend to be near dungeon entrances and roads, but there is no compelling reason for the monster to be in that exact location.For example: Many bandit camps are placed in valleys near the road. Realistically, a bandit camp would be on a sheltered hill near the road so the bandits could climb the trees and overlook the road. Or, the camp would be in the valley near a hill, but the bandits would spend all their time on the hill.
ProceduralThe specific monster that appears at a site is determined by the player's level, although the author does choose the type of monster (goblinoid vs. demonic vs. animal).Hand-generatedDungeon entrances are hand placed, but their appearance is based on a stock set of entrances. Dungeons are evenly scattered around the world, but little attention seems to be paid to the reasons why dungeon X is in location Y.ProceduralSome dungeons, such as the Oblivion gates, are randomly placed throughout the world.Procedurally assistedDungeons are created by hand using a set of "tiles". The dungeon layouts appear haphazard to me, and not as carefully laid out as they could be. I suspect the haphazard layouts come from a combination of tile limitations and because the designers don't have enough time to perfect the layouts.[QUOTE="BladeMaster84"][QUOTE="smerlus"]Generic could also stem for the fact that the landscape and dungeons are randomly generated from a limited tileset and look that way also.
smerlus
No they aren't. The landscape is manually textured. The dungeons are built from pieces similar to a tileset, but everything is hand-placed including the pieces that make up te dungeons.
Procedurally assistedThe world's topography is roughly painted by an author. Procedural algorithms, such as rainfall erosion, are applied to the author's topography, producing gullies and streams.Hand-generatedThe forest type (evergreen, deciduous, grasslands, etc.) is painted on the topography by the author.ProceduralIndividual trees, shrubs, and grasses are procedurally placed at run-time.Hand-generatedMonster encounter sites are placed by hand, but in a somewhat random pattern. Monsters tend to be near dungeon entrances and roads, but there is no compelling reason for the monster to be in that exact location.For example: Many bandit camps are placed in valleys near the road. Realistically, a bandit camp would be on a sheltered hill near the road so the bandits could climb the trees and overlook the road. Or, the camp would be in the valley near a hill, but the bandits would spend all their time on the hill.
ProceduralThe specific monster that appears at a site is determined by the player's level, although the author does choose the type of monster (goblinoid vs. demonic vs. animal).Hand-generatedDungeon entrances are hand placed, but their appearance is based on a stock set of entrances. Dungeons are evenly scattered around the world, but little attention seems to be paid to the reasons why dungeon X is in location Y.ProceduralSome dungeons, such as the Oblivion gates, are randomly placed throughout the world.Procedurally assistedDungeons are created by hand using a set of "tiles". The dungeon layouts appear haphazard to me, and not as carefully laid out as they could be. I suspect the haphazard layouts come from a combination of tile limitations and because the designers don't have enough time to perfect the layouts.
To contrast Oblivion's layouts with another CRPG: Neverwinter Nights' dungeons have specific store rooms for food (for the monsters), design elements that Oblivion lacks. Many of Oblivion's dungeons don't even have a boss monster or other obvious end-point.Hand-generatedDungeon monsters and loot are placed by hand, but somewhat haphazardly.ProceduralThe specific monster and loot that appears at a site is determined by the player's level, although the author does choose the type of monster (goblinoid vs. demonic vs. undead).Hand-generatedCities are placed by hand, and their external appearance (always walled to reduce polygon counts) is custom to the city.Hand-generatedCity streets and buildings are placed by hand, using predefined building models that are repeated though-out the city.Procedurally assistedMost NPCs are placed by hand, although guards are more procedural. NPC appearance is hand-selected using sliders that modify a basic model.Hand-generatedNPC actions are controlled by AI. The NPC's AI goals are chosen by the author.ProceduralThe minute-to-minute details of what the NPC does is left up to the AI.Hand-generatedQuests are hand-generated, and reasonably detailed and creative. (Quests in WoW and EQII, are hand-generated and not as creative, with more of yellow/green colour because they could almost be procedurally generated.)Hand-generatedThe main quest, returning an emperor's son to power, is tightly controlled and very detailed.
I'm not reading all that. Sum it up if you want a response. One thing I noticed as I skimmed over it was that it say Oblivion gates are randomly placed. That is not true. There are set spawn points and they will open when a player nears the spawn point up until a certain number. (I think only up to 50 non-quest gates spawn.)
"anyways, i thought the combat is what truly made oblivion so great. why would you want to play a rpg that has point and click combat? morrowind was fantastic, just slightly lower in my list of top 10 games, but the combat was just awful, and i felt that to much of the map was taken up by the central area, which was pretty much devoid of all life."
Agreed
[QUOTE="smerlus"][QUOTE="BladeMaster84"][QUOTE="smerlus"]Generic could also stem for the fact that the landscape and dungeons are randomly generated from a limited tileset and look that way also.
BladeMaster84
No they aren't. The landscape is manually textured. The dungeons are built from pieces similar to a tileset, but everything is hand-placed including the pieces that make up te dungeons.
Procedurally assistedThe world's topography is roughly painted by an author. Procedural algorithms, such as rainfall erosion, are applied to the author's topography, producing gullies and streams.Hand-generatedThe forest type (evergreen, deciduous, grasslands, etc.) is painted on the topography by the author.ProceduralIndividual trees, shrubs, and grasses are procedurally placed at run-time.Hand-generatedMonster encounter sites are placed by hand, but in a somewhat random pattern. Monsters tend to be near dungeon entrances and roads, but there is no compelling reason for the monster to be in that exact location.For example: Many bandit camps are placed in valleys near the road. Realistically, a bandit camp would be on a sheltered hill near the road so the bandits could climb the trees and overlook the road. Or, the camp would be in the valley near a hill, but the bandits would spend all their time on the hill.
ProceduralThe specific monster that appears at a site is determined by the player's level, although the author does choose the type of monster (goblinoid vs. demonic vs. animal).Hand-generatedDungeon entrances are hand placed, but their appearance is based on a stock set of entrances. Dungeons are evenly scattered around the world, but little attention seems to be paid to the reasons why dungeon X is in location Y.ProceduralSome dungeons, such as the Oblivion gates, are randomly placed throughout the world.Procedurally assistedDungeons are created by hand using a set of "tiles". The dungeon layouts appear haphazard to me, and not as carefully laid out as they could be. I suspect the haphazard layouts come from a combination of tile limitations and because the designers don't have enough time to perfect the layouts.
To contrast Oblivion's layouts with another CRPG: Neverwinter Nights' dungeons have specific store rooms for food (for the monsters), design elements that Oblivion lacks. Many of Oblivion's dungeons don't even have a boss monster or other obvious end-point.Hand-generatedDungeon monsters and loot are placed by hand, but somewhat haphazardly.ProceduralThe specific monster and loot that appears at a site is determined by the player's level, although the author does choose the type of monster (goblinoid vs. demonic vs. undead).Hand-generatedCities are placed by hand, and their external appearance (always walled to reduce polygon counts) is custom to the city.Hand-generatedCity streets and buildings are placed by hand, using predefined building models that are repeated though-out the city.Procedurally assistedMost NPCs are placed by hand, although guards are more procedural. NPC appearance is hand-selected using sliders that modify a basic model.Hand-generatedNPC actions are controlled by AI. The NPC's AI goals are chosen by the author.ProceduralThe minute-to-minute details of what the NPC does is left up to the AI.Hand-generatedQuests are hand-generated, and reasonably detailed and creative. (Quests in WoW and EQII, are hand-generated and not as creative, with more of yellow/green colour because they could almost be procedurally generated.)Hand-generatedThe main quest, returning an emperor's son to power, is tightly controlled and very detailed.
I'm not reading all that. Sum it up if you want a response. One thing I noticed as I skimmed over it was that it say Oblivion gates are randomly placed. That is not true. There are set spawn points and they will open when a player nears the spawn point up until a certain number. (I think only up to 50 non-quest gates spawn.)
it says that there are a certain amount of hand made oblivion gates and dungeons. and everytime you walk through a gate / cave door. a random gate, ruin, cave is chosen. So the reason that some of the caves, gates and ruins seem like you've been there before is because there aren't enough hand made gates, ruins, caves to match the amount of entrances to them.
Also the landscape is random to a degree. it's kind of like Sim City... I dictate if a zone is commercial, residential or industrial and any number of things can randomly pop up there. If you and I were to play the game next to each other. seperate games on sperate computers, we'd find that, while the areas where there are trees remain the same, the placement of the trees, rocks, grass, bushes and potion items would all be different.
Repetitive combat.
Boring story and voice acting
Little/No character - you never feel like you are undertaking your chosen character like a Thief.
Psychic AI - Guards appear out of nowhere when you sneak into a house. They also know that you have stolen goods.
Ok, first off RPGs aren't about choice. Choice is just a luxury. The character development is great, you can become whatever you want to be you don't always end up becoming a battle tank. As far as it being first person, that actually makes it better, as far as the combat, it's great, much better than games like WOW which is really over rated. In fact I would like to point out that there are more RPGs that lack the choice aspect than RPGs that include it, in fact most RPGs don't even have the level of choice Oblivion had which isn't very much.
Sure there are problems with the game like the reuse of so many voices and the main storyline, but the qualities of the game more than make up for all of the problems it does have, which are small, there are no big problems with Oblivion. As for the main quest it could use work, but that's why there's so much extra content.
As for choice, it would be nice to some people, personally I don't care in fact I prefer it the way it is, but it's a luxury and not having it doesn't take away from the game at all even though it may be nice to add that.
Also as for it being generic, really just because a game has a common theme or setting doesn't make it a bad game, trying looking at more important aspects. Often games end up sucking because people try too hard to make them unique and they end up sacrificing quality.
Anyways. Some find it boring, some find it the funest game ever. I'm sure some of your favorite games have similar problems but you don't care because the overall game is good, complaining about every little problem is lame. If you're going to criticize, criticize about aspects that make the game bad, so far the only real problems that I noticed would be how you randomly get caught pickpocketing. I also despise how sometimes as a vampire you feed during the day, then rest, and when you wake up during the same day, you still have to feed again anyway.
Sorry if anything seems offensive or if I came across like a jerk, also sorry about the length but there were many points that needed to be made.
Ok, first off RPGs aren't about choice. Choice is just a luxury.Darkside2205
Choice is the defining element of roleplaying games for me.
The character development is great, you can become whatever you want to be you don't always end up becoming a battle tank.Darkside2205
The character development is cheap. They set the system up such that you don't have to make any choices. Hell, you don't have to do anything. And all three of my characters ended up as magic-wielding-sword-using-heavy-wearing-unstoppable-battle-tanks. If there are no restrictions, you just keep going up and up. You have to deliberately try and avoid becoming too good. That's a broken character development system, if you ask me.
In fact I would like to point out that there are more RPGs that lack the choice aspect than RPGs that include it, in fact most RPGs don't even have the level of choice Oblivion had which isn't very much.Darkside2205
Can you cite any examples? I would like to know which games you feel have fewer roleplaying elements than Oblivion.
As for choice, it would be nice to some people, personally I don't care in fact I prefer it the way it is, but it's a luxury and not having it doesn't take away from the game at all even though it may be nice to add that.Darkside2205
Why do you see player choice as a luxury? It is one of the most fundamental aspects of roleplaying. The player should drive everything forward with his choices.
Also as for it being generic, really just because a game has a common theme or setting doesn't make it a bad game, trying looking at more important aspects.Darkside2205
All of the characters are interchangable - none really have an ounce of personality. The dialogue is non-descript, and the voice work is repetitive in the extreme. Characters are one of the most defining elements of a roleplaying game, and Oblivion barely has any worth noting.
Another bad point: Sean Bean lol.
Can anyone explain why you are only given 1 dialogue option sometimes? What the heck is the point of that?
The game is good but it is not a good RPG. By PC standards this game fell flat on its face. But on the console I can see why it did so well. It was the closest thing to an RPG they had that they were willing to play because it had eye-candy, they didn't have to read, nor did they have to work hard or think. Bingo success! Shallow? Half-@**ed story that anybody could write and no depth in NPC's or world whatsoever save a few. Generic? It's a dumbed down rehash that does nothing to move the genre forward. Not an RPG? Almost all elements important to an RPG are missing to begin with!
Grim_Wolf88
I strongly disagree. I guess I should ask, what aspects are there to an RPG? Here are a few I can name:
Those are the ones that come to mind for me. I would say without any one of those you will have problems, and here's why:
So, with those aspects listed and justified, here's how I think these aspects go along with Oblivion:
.
Having said all that, why is Oblivion not a good RPG? Maybe it's not a good game in your opinion, but I think it qualifies as an RPG.
Almost all elements important to an RPG are missing to begin with!Grim_Wolf88
???
it says that there are a certain amount of hand made oblivion gates and dungeons. and everytime you walk through a gate / cave door. a random gate, ruin, cave is chosen. So the reason that some of the caves, gates and ruins seem like you've been there before is because there aren't enough hand made gates, ruins, caves to match the amount of entrances to them.
Also the landscape is random to a degree. it's kind of like Sim City... I dictate if a zone is commercial, residential or industrial and any number of things can randomly pop up there. If you and I were to play the game next to each other. seperate games on sperate computers, we'd find that, while the areas where there are trees remain the same, the placement of the trees, rocks, grass, bushes and potion items would all be different.
smerlus
It is simply wrong, then. The only thing that is random are non-quest Oblivion Gate worlds, there are only a few worlds and they're randomly attached to a gate when that gate's spawn point is triggered. If you don't believe me and you have the PC version, download the construction set and look through it yourself.
I've always preferred the Gothic series over the Elder Scrolls series. Gothic 3 could have been one of the best games ever created, but it ended up being sub-par because it was released so dang early. There was so many problems with the game because the developers didn't take the time to fix them.
It's a real shame - because the game is really awesome - just held back because of its bugs and glitches.
hmm Bioshock anyone? :PRepetitive combat.
Boring story and voice acting
Little/No character - you never feel like you are undertaking your chosen character like a Thief.
Psychic AI - Guards appear out of nowhere when you sneak into a house. They also know that you have stolen goods.
biggest_loser
my biggest problem with oblivion is that leveling up doesnt matter. EVERYTHING levels up with you bar rats and crabs, so even if you are lv 50, you still have to whack some stupid troll 100 times for it to die. Its like "oh yay im lv 50... it still takes a long ass time to clear this dungeon that i cleared when i was level 5". You never get a real sense of power in the game. i think that sense of power and being near a god is what made morrowind so much better. enchantments werent limited, stats werent limited, and most creatures did NOT level with you.
When i was high level in morrowind with super enchanted armor and a super enchanted axe, it really felt good, i felt i accomplished something. When i play my high level in oblivion, i cant help but be bored from the monotonous gameplay in 5 minutes and i think to myself how all these hours were spent getting a few weapons and some armor. just a skin change from when i was level 5. Hell, even two worlds (a truly crap game) was much more fun at high level because you were just so awesome.
So there, those are my real problems with oblivion. it has other problems, but this is the biggest problem in my opinion.
It seems that of late oblivion has been taking alot of crap. just in that last couple of days i've seen it accused of being shallow, not being an rpg, being generic, etc. at first i thought it was just me who like it, but look at the user score! 9.3 is not somthing to laugh at. very, very few games have acheived such high user AND critic scores. it's like another world, this game, and it is most certainly a rpg. it cound't really be much rpgier. there is as many hours of voice acting in this game as there is gameplay in most. there are so many quests that you can play this game for hundreds of hours and not complete them all. there were even a ton of books written for in game use.
now explain to me how this game is shallow, generic, and not an rpg?
with_teeth26
Its over-rated crap, if you must ened reason read my review.. Be warned though there are some typos and I havn't bothered to fully proof read it, but it clearly shows numerous examples why this game is garbage when it comes to RPG's.
Doesnt really matter since true pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons with a decent DM trumps every single videogame RPG ever made in terms of role playing. Why? Simple, because you are still limited by the programmers on what you can and cant do. You mentioned Fallout. Well in Fallout I cant sleep with a prostitute and then beat her brains out with a baseball bat and get my money back. You can do this in Dungeons and Dragons. You can even do this in Grand Theft Auto. But not in Fallout. Why? Because it wasnt programmed in. So if I want to do this, and I want to play as a homicidal tramp that sleeps with prostitutes, kills them and gets my money back, I have to play GTA? So is GTA more of an RPG than Fallout? So the whole RP point is really pretty moot, since different games do different things in different ways, all depending on what the programmers wanted you to do in their games. And guys, get off your high horse. Just because you say a game (in this case Oblivion) isnt an RPG doesnt mean thats what it is. I can stand on the side of the road giving homemade speeding tickets to everyone that passes. Doesnt mean my authority matters, just like yours doesnt. If I say Oblivion is a great RPG thats all that matters to me. Same with everyone else who likes Oblivion.
And lets see, why do you guys hate Oblivion so much? The dreaded leveling system. Guess what, fixed by mods. The voices? Fixed by mods. The boring vanilla combat? Fixed by mods. Buh buh the quests arent RPG enough! There are mods that add new quests that are. Seriously, I have a full 4.7gb dvd jam packed with mods for Oblivion and I havent even scratched the surface. Buh buh buh mods shouldnt be relied on to fix Bethesda's game!!! Well Bethesda is managed by human beings. Human beings make mistakes. Its still a great game. Thats why it was a very smart move on Bethesda's part to cater so strongly to the modding community. Modders can do awesome things. Buh buh buh we dont want to mod!!! Well its a good thing youre a PC gamer then. Maybe you should retire your mouse and keyboard and buy an Xbox, with all the others who think Halo is the greatest shooter of all time.
I mean seriously I can hate on Morrowind all day. The crap combat, stupid map system, the most gawd-awful textures and models Ive ever seen in a game (and Ive been gaming over 25 years), repetitive music, annoying cliff racers, a map system that couldnt fight its way out of a wet paper bag, I could go on for hours. But the fact is, mods fixed all these shortcomings too, Why? Cause Bethesda caters to the modders, and they made some crazy awesome things for Morrowind. And Morrowind is made into an even better game because of it.
All in all, I think its really pathetic how you guys harp on one another just because your expectations werent met or whatever, and you cling onto whatever argument slams whatever game you dont like just for the fact that you dont like it. Fact is they are both great games. Get over yourselves.
[QUOTE="with_teeth26"]It seems that of late oblivion has been taking alot of crap. just in that last couple of days i've seen it accused of being shallow, not being an rpg, being generic, etc. at first i thought it was just me who like it, but look at the user score! 9.3 is not somthing to laugh at. very, very few games have acheived such high user AND critic scores. it's like another world, this game, and it is most certainly a rpg. it cound't really be much rpgier. there is as many hours of voice acting in this game as there is gameplay in most. there are so many quests that you can play this game for hundreds of hours and not complete them all. there were even a ton of books written for in game use.
now explain to me how this game is shallow, generic, and not an rpg?
sSubZerOo
Its over-rated crap, if you must ened reason read my review.. Be warned though there are some typos and I havn't bothered to fully proof read it, but it clearly shows numerous examples why this game is garbage when it comes to RPG's.
I read your review. You point out a lot of flaws and parts you don't like. I agree with some of them, or I at least acknowledge them. I liked the game way more than you did for sure. I thought it was amazing, but the systems they had set up were fairly different than previous RPGs such as the way everything leveled up with you.
I thought that the whole "monsters level up with you" was kinda dumb because no matter how much you leveled it seemed like it didn't matter, but at the same time it meant you could explore anywhere you wanted without being mowed down by some level 50 enemy when you are level 2. It allowed more freedom earlier on. Still, I would opt for the system you prefer where other things do NOT level with you.
I think your review would have been more useful as a serious review if it talked about the good and the bad details of the game, not only the bad You gave it a 6.7. The way you reviewed it I would have thought you would have given it a -1.5.
Doesnt really matter since true pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons with a decent DM trumps every single videogame RPG ever made in terms of role playing. Why? Simple, because you are still limited by the programmers on what you can and cant do. You mentioned Fallout. Well in Fallout I cant sleep with a prostitute and then beat her brains out with a baseball bat and get my money back. You can do this in Dungeons and Dragons. You can even do this in Grand Theft Auto. But not in Fallout. Why? Because it wasnt programmed in. So if I want to do this, and I want to play as a homicidal tramp that sleeps with prostitutes, kills them and gets my money back, I have to play GTA? So is GTA more of an RPG than Fallout? So the whole RP point is really pretty moot, since different games do different things in different ways, all depending on what the programmers wanted you to do in their games. And guys, get off your high horse. Just because you say a game (in this case Oblivion) isnt an RPG doesnt mean thats what it is. I can stand on the side of the road giving homemade speeding tickets to everyone that passes. Doesnt mean my authority matters, just like yours doesnt. If I say Oblivion is a great RPG thats all that matters to me. Same with everyone else who likes Oblivion.
And lets see, why do you guys hate Oblivion so much? The dreaded leveling system. Guess what, fixed by mods. The voices? Fixed by mods. The boring vanilla combat? Fixed by mods. Buh buh the quests arent RPG enough! There are mods that add new quests that are. Seriously, I have a full 4.7gb dvd jam packed with mods for Oblivion and I havent even scratched the surface. Buh buh buh mods shouldnt be relied on to fix Bethesda's game!!! Well Bethesda is managed by human beings. Human beings make mistakes. Its still a great game. Thats why it was a very smart move on Bethesda's part to cater so strongly to the modding community. Modders can do awesome things. Buh buh buh we dont want to mod!!! Well its a good thing youre a PC gamer then. Maybe you should retire your mouse and keyboard and buy an Xbox, with all the others who think Halo is the greatest shooter of all time.
I mean seriously I can hate on Morrowind all day. The crap combat, stupid map system, the most gawd-awful textures and models Ive ever seen in a game (and Ive been gaming over 25 years), repetitive music, annoying cliff racers, a map system that couldnt fight its way out of a wet paper bag, I could go on for hours. But the fact is, mods fixed all these shortcomings too, Why? Cause Bethesda caters to the modders, and they made some crazy awesome things for Morrowind. And Morrowind is made into an even better game because of it.
All in all, I think its really pathetic how you guys harp on one another just because your expectations werent met or whatever, and you cling onto whatever argument slams whatever game you dont like just for the fact that you dont like it. Fact is they are both great games. Get over yourselves.
RossRichard
Thanks, I agree with you.
Why? Simple, because you are still limited by the programmers on what you can and cant do. You mentioned Fallout. Well in Fallout I cant sleep with a prostitute and then beat her brains out with a baseball bat and get my money back. You can do this in Dungeons and Dragons. You can even do this in Grand Theft Auto. But not in Fallout. Why? Because it wasnt programmed in. So if I want to do this, and I want to play as a homicidal tramp that sleeps with prostitutes, kills them and gets my money back, I have to play GTA? So is GTA more of an RPG than Fallout? So the whole RP point is really pretty moot, since different games do different things in different ways, all depending on what the programmers wanted you to do in their games.RossRichard
That's a very twisted argument. All games have limitations, but the fewwer the limitations - or to put it another way, the greater the number of choices - the greater the capacity for roleplaying.
Any roleplaying game which has six different ways of completing a quest has a greater capacity for roleplaying than a game which only had one way of completing a quest. There are no absolutes when dealing with roleplaying, there are degrees - you seem more than intelligent enough to appreciate that.
Oblivion has very little capacity for actual roleplaying compared with certain other roleplaying games. Those other roleplaying games may have very little capacity for actual roleplaying compared with greater forms of roleplaying too, but again, it's all about degrees, not absolutes.
Infinity may be better than six, but six is better than one. If I want to play a computer roleplaying game and my choice is a game with six choices, or one choice - I know which I'm choosing. The one which has some capacity for roleplaying, and that would not be a game where my choice is to take the one developer-determined option or turn the game off.
And guys, get off your high horse. Just because you say a game (in this case Oblivion) isnt an RPG doesnt mean thats what it is. I can stand on the side of the road giving homemade speeding tickets to everyone that passes. Doesnt mean my authority matters, just like yours doesnt.RossRichard
I agree with this - Oblivion is one of my favourite and most played games, but only because I don't think of it as a roleplaying game. Objectively, almost every one of Oblivion's roleplaying mechanics are poor. I can thankfully appreciate the game for other reasons, but those who wanted (and it wasn't unfair of them to expect) Oblivion to be a roleplaying game are within their rights to be disappointed to an extent.
And lets see, why do you guys hate Oblivion so much? The dreaded leveling system. Guess what, fixed by mods. The voices? Fixed by mods. The boring vanilla combat? Fixed by mods. Buh buh the quests arent RPG enough! There are mods that add new quests that are. Seriously, I have a full 4.7gb dvd jam packed with mods for Oblivion and I havent even scratched the surface.RossRichard
If I paint something, and it sucks, people will tell me it sucks. If someone takes that painting and turns it into a masterpiece - does that make my painting a masterpiece? Of course not - it makes their painting a masterpiece. Different people have different mods, so there is no absolute baseline by which multiple people may judge the game on a public forum such as GS. An understandable baseline needs to be established when people are talking about the game - and the only way to do that is with the original game. The unmodded Oblivion is a very, very flawed roleplaying game.
Other people may have turned that painting into a masterpiece, but that does not mean that the original painting is somehow better for it.
Buh buh buh mods shouldnt be relied on to fix Bethesda's game!!! Well Bethesda is managed by human beings. Human beings make mistakes.RossRichard
I'll remember the people make mistakes argument next time I'm praising a mediocre game, that really is the right mixture of nonsense and more nonsense that wins arguments because no one wants to go anywhere near it.
Buh buh buh we dont want to mod!!! Well its a good thing youre a PC gamer then. Maybe you should retire your mouse and keyboard and buy an Xbox, with all the others who think Halo is the greatest shooter of all time.RossRichard
I'm not going to argue this either way - but I will tell you that I'm a devout PC gamer, have been for many years, and I have never much enjoyed mods.
All in all, I think its really pathetic how you guys harp on one another just because your expectations werent met or whatever, and you cling onto whatever argument slams whatever game you dont like just for the fact that you dont like it. Fact is they are both great games. Get over yourselves.RossRichard
For someone wanting people to get over themselves, you're pretty full of yourself (amongst other things) to publicly state that your personal opinion is fact.
I agree with just about everything Fatshodan just said. Except I considered Oblivion a good RPG, not just a good game. But I would be open to someone explaining to me what aspects make up a great RPG and which ones Oblivion does and does not have. In another post I listed 4 aspects and it seemed like Oblivion had great lacking in one of the 4... but was good in other respects... even without mods.df853
I guess one other argument I might have is the analogy of the painting. Yeah, if someone takes someone else's painting and makes it a masterpiece, it's the masterpiece of that person that modified it... to a degree. But with PC games its a bit more complicated. Some games cannot be modded or they are not set up to be modded properly. Games like Doom, Quake, Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind/Oblivion are set up with systems that make modding way way way easier than say if you tried to mod Bioshock or Mass Effect. Those games were not meant to be modded. The developers did not make any easy way for you to do it. So, it's not black and white here...
What is all this choice we keep hearing about? If we're talking about conversation trees then I'll gladly not bother. I'm bored of conversation trees and especially bored of picking Evil / Good choices.
For me an RPG needs to have good game mechanics lets Role Playing actually work without having to imagine it. Unfortunately Oblivion just didn't do it for me. If I wanted to be an Assassin type player I was forced to imagine I was that type of player. Oblivion just didn't cater for variation in the type of player you were. To be honest I'm yet to find an RPG that really wasn't flawed in this way. (I haven't played Morrowind)
I agree with just about everything Fatshodan just said. Except I considered Oblivion a good RPG, not just a good game. But I would be open to someone explaining to me what aspects make up a great RPG and which ones Oblivion does and does not have. In another post I listed 4 aspects and it seemed like Oblivion had great lacking in one of the 4... but was good in other respects... even without mods.df853
My biggest problem with Oblivion is that the cIass system has no real limitations, and that there are very few actual choices available to the player.
What this means is that you can make almost every concievable cIass. Now, you may be thinking that that's a good thing - right? I don't think so. The fewer limitations imposed upon a player when building a character, the fewer choices the player has to make. I think choice is the defining element of a roleplaying game.
Say I want a warrior, I skill up my warrior skills... but there are no limits. I can also level up my spellcasting skills, my rogueish skills. I can just skill everything. There's no choices to make here, it's just one skill after another after another. My choices don't define me, because I haven't made any.
I've made three characters in Oblivion - one was a vanilla warrior, the other was a conjuration/archer specialist and the other was an illusion/destruction specialist. All three ended up as sword-wielding-heavy-wearing-magic-using invincible battletanks. There was no choice - there was no uniqueness to my character. By removing the restrictions when it comes to character development, I think you are actually reducing the capacity for roleplaying, not increasing it.
It also doesn't make sense in realistic context. Would a man who has to study the arcane arts all day have time to work out enough to become strong enough to wear heavy armour and wield weapons with skill - and would a man strong enough to bench press 800lbs be able to move silently enough to sneak through someone's house, or move with enough finesse to pickpocket someone?
Even within the realm of fantasy (where suspending disbelief comes with the territory), everything makes sense within the context of the world. This kind of character development does not.
If you look at something like Fallout, where a player has a limited set of points with which to build a character, but a large number of skills to focus on, each player can make a very unique and personalised character and the game will respond to the player's choices, which will be determined by the character the player builds. It is possible to play through the entire game without fighting, for instance. Where I may build a burly idiot who likes to clobber everyone over the head, you may build a slick snake oil salesman who gets through the game with his sharp tongue and his charisma. You build a unique, personalised character, and the breadth of choices available will mean that the game responds to the character you have built.
I think that that is real roleplaying.
I won't go into much detail on the other points. Oblivion also has bland cookie-cutter characters, almost all of which are utterly interchangable and immediately forgettable, it has about thirteen voice actors (while Bloodlines has around 50 - even though it has far fewer NPCs) meaning you will have to listen to the same damn voice over and over again and the levelling world undermines the entire concept of levelling up and character building. There's also a ton of dungeons to crawl through with nothing at all at the end. No boss, no items. Just one generic dungeon after another.
That's a very twisted argument. All games have limitations, but the fewwer the limitations - or to put it another way, the greater the number of choices - the greater the capacity for roleplaying.
Any roleplaying game which has six different ways of completing a quest has a greater capacity for roleplaying than a game which only had one way of completing a quest. There are no absolutes when dealing with roleplaying, there are degrees - you seem more than intelligent enough to appreciate that.
Oblivion has very little capacity for actual roleplaying compared with certain other roleplaying games. Those other roleplaying games may have very little capacity for actual roleplaying compared with greater forms of roleplaying too, but again, it's all about degrees, not absolutes.
Infinity may be better than six, but six is better than one. If I want to play a computer roleplaying game and my choice is a game with six choices, or one choice - I know which I'm choosing. The one which has some capacity for roleplaying, and that would not be a game where my choice is to take the one developer-determined option or turn the game off.fatshodan
Yes it was a very twisted argument, but none less valid. Anyone who has ever played Grand Theft Auto knows that there is much more than one way to complete most missions, each as valid as the other. Does this make GTA a RPG? Hardly. The point I was making is the RP argument is moot for this very reason.
I agree with this - Oblivion is one of my favourite and most played games, but only because I don't think of it as a roleplaying game. Objectively, almost every one of Oblivion's roleplaying mechanics are poor. I can thankfully appreciate the game for other reasons, but those who wanted (and it wasn't unfair of them to expect) Oblivion to be a roleplaying game are within their rights to be disappointed to an extent.fatshodan
Just cause you were dissapointed doesnt mean the whole videogame-playing world was. Want proof? Have any idea of how many awards Oblivion has won from the gaming press? Ill give you a clue, it was a lot more than the supposedly superior Morrowind did. Among those awards were RPG of the Year from IGN, G4, Gamespy, Gamespot, Game Revolution and the IAA. Let me guess, this doesnt prove anything because its not a true RPG, right?
If I paint something, and it sucks, people will tell me it sucks. If someone takes that painting and turns it into a masterpiece - does that make my painting a masterpiece? Of course not - it makes their painting a masterpiece. Different people have different mods, so there is no absolute baseline by which multiple people may judge the game on a public forum such as GS. An understandable baseline needs to be established when people are talking about the game - and the only way to do that is with the original game. The unmodded Oblivion is a very, very flawed roleplaying game.
Other people may have turned that painting into a masterpiece, but that does not mean that the original painting is somehow better for it.fatshodan
You are comparing two completely different beasts here. When you paint, what you put on the canvas the first time adds texture and will usually show up even after you attempt to fix a mistake. This is why if you make a mistake you start over. This is the reason why no other artists try to 'mod' another artists painting. You simply reproduce it. Another reason is because you alter the integrity of the artist. You are right, if you would reproduce a painting and add to it, it would become yours. But this doesnt apply to mods because not all mods are total conversions.There are different types of mods, from simple tweaks to complete conversions. Your example would more fit the total conversion type of mod. Most mods installed on games are little programs that fix a gamers nags about a particular game. Total conversion mods are pretty rare.
I'll remember the people make mistakes argument next time I'm praising a mediocre game, that really is the right mixture of nonsense and more nonsense that wins arguments because no one wants to go anywhere near it.fatshodan
It was not an argument as much as saying Bethesda enabled mods for fans to add things they saw as shortcomings. Believe it or not a lot of people prefer the level scaling systems that were in Oblivion, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy 8, and other RPGs. To them this is not a mistake. If you see this as a negative feature mods do exist to correct them.
I'm not going to argue this either way - but I will tell you that I'm a devout PC gamer, have been for many years, and I have never much enjoyed mods.fatshodan
We are all entitled to our opinion, but there are a lot of PC gamers that enjoy mods and prefer games that are moddable. Not sure why your opinion should hold weight over anyone elses.
For someone wanting people to get over themselves, you're pretty full of yourself (amongst other things) to publicly state that your personal opinion is fact.
fatshodan
I have stated fact and opinion both. Maybe you should re-read my posts and see for yourself. By the way nice stealth insult. First rule of debating, when your opponent resorts to insults they have already lost.
Yes it was a very twisted argument, but none less valid. Anyone who has ever played Grand Theft Auto knows that there is much more than one way to complete most missions, each as valid as the other. Does this make GTA a RPG? Hardly. The point I was making is the RP argument is moot for this very reason.RossRichard
I don't see a legitimate point here. 'Roleplaying game' is a label applied to a set of gameplay mechanics - dialogue options, character building, inventory and so forth. As far as computer game labels go, no, GTA is not a roleplaying game.
And it is the choices relating to these broadly defined roleplaying mechanics which, to me, define the breadth of the capacity for roleplaying.
While GTA offers the players a variety of choices, it does not offer (m)any choices related to the commonly accepted criteria for what defines what a roleplaying game is.
All games have hundreds of choices - which weapon do I use, in which direction shall I travel - if choice in and of itself was the only issue, then all games would be roleplaying games. Oblivion would be a roleplaying game simply because I had the choice to move my character in a variety of differect directions.
But it is not simply the absense of presence of choices - it is what those choices are, and how they relate to the core gameplay mechanics. And in that respect - Oblivion offers very, very few choices as they relate to the broadly accepted core mechanics which define what the RPG genre is.
Just cause you were dissapointed doesnt mean the whole videogame-playing world was. Want proof? Have any idea of how many awards Oblivion has won from the gaming press? Ill give you a clue, it was a lot more than the supposedly superior Morrowind did. Among those awards were RPG of the Year from IGN, G4, Gamespy, Gamespot, Game Revolution and the IAA. Let me guess, this doesnt prove anything because its not a true RPG, right?RossRichard
Firstly, for the record, I don't like Morrowind - please don't assume I do. I actually prefer Oblivion. Not everyone who dislikes Oblivion is a raargh smash teh non-Morrowind infidel! Oblivion-hater. Most of the reasons I dislike Oblivion are also present in Morrowind - except Oblivion's world is far more beautiful and far more enjoyable to explore.
Secondly, you have provided ample proof that the gaming community as a whole liked Oblivion, and nothing more. You have provided a lot of proof that a lot of people like something. This is the same community that hailed Gears of War as a masterpiece and BioShock as an industry changing work of art. I really don't see your point. You're more than intelligent enough to know that majority rule is proof of nothing, and review scores represent the opinions of a few individuals whose beliefs are no more legitimate than yours or mine.
I think I've made it pretty clear over my last three posts why I think Oblivion has very little capacity for roleplaying. That's not to say I don't think of it as a roleplaying game - I do, and I don't believe I said otherwise - but I personally believe that, while it has all the gameplay mechanics which define the roleplaying game genre, it is mostly a lifeless husk of a game as far as the breadth of the capacity for roleplaying goes.
You are comparing two completely different beasts here. When you paint, what you put on the canvas the first time adds texture and will usually show up even after you attempt to fix a mistake. This is why if you make a mistake you start over. This is the reason why no other artists try to 'mod' another artists painting.RossRichard
I don't see the merit in nitpicking my analogy while ignoring my point - my point being that the game and the modded game are two entirely different entities and a good modded game doesn't make for a good game - it makes for a good modded game. When talking about quality on an open forum, as I said, you need to have an established baseline. The only universal baseline is the vanilla game. When people argue about the game, they argue about the game - not the game with this mod or that mod.
It's great that the mods make Oblivion a better game - I've never tried them myself. I played through the entire game at release, long before every mod was released. Should the existence of these modes posthumously make my experience with the game better somehow? Of course not - those mods only make the game better if the people use them, which makes them an extreme variable, while the vanilla game is a universal constant. Everyone who buys the game will have the vanilla game - and for that reason, it is the vanilla game which should be used when judging the game in open discussion with a variety of different people who have all played different, personalised versions of the game.
We are all entitled to our opinion, but there are a lot of PC gamers that enjoy mods and prefer games that are moddable. Not sure why your opinion should hold weight over anyone elses.RossRichard
I completely agree, but your comments strongly implied that you think all PC gamers who don't mod are console kiddies, or something, which could be interpreted as more than a little bit offensive by some.
I have stated fact and opinion both. Maybe you should re-read my posts and see for yourself. By the way nice stealth insult. First rule of debating, when your opponent resorts to insults they have already lost.RossRichard
Well, I've never heard of this 'rule', but I personally would say that dismissing anyone's argument without a counter would be the only legitimate cause to have lost an argument - and at any rate, raising that after picking the entire post apart is somewhat moot.
Besides, I meant no offense by that comment - it was meant as more of a friendly thump on the arm than an insult. Doesn't go down well with people who don't know me, I suppose - but now you do, and I hope you took no offense as I certainly didn't intend any.
Your exact words were 'fact is they're both great games'. Or, to just illustrate that: Fact is: [my opinion here]. For someone saying people are full of themselves, that's an extremely arrogant comment.
I don't see a legitimate point here. 'Roleplaying game' is a label applied to a set of gameplay mechanics - dialogue options, character building, inventory and so forth. As far as computer game labels go, no, GTA is not a roleplaying game.
And it is the choices relating to these broadly defined roleplaying mechanics which, to me, define the breadth of the capacity for roleplaying.
While GTA offers the players a variety of choices, it does not offer (m)any choices related to the commonly accepted criteria for what defines what a roleplaying game is.
All games have hundreds of choices - which weapon do I use, in which direction shall I travel - if choice in and of itself was the only issue, then all games would be roleplaying games. Oblivion would be a roleplaying game simply because I had the choice to move my character in a variety of differect directions.
But it is not simply the absense of presence of choices - it is what those choices are, and how they relate to the core gameplay mechanics. And in that respect - Oblivion offers very, very few choices as they relate to the broadly accepted core mechanics which define what the RPG genre is.fatshodan
The basic thing I was saying is just because game A has more choices and ways of doing things than game B does not mean that game A is an RPG and game B isnt. I think you will find that games are catagorized in a pretty cut and dry way, probably based on mass market appeal, and gamers always have an idea of which game is miscatagorized. But like it or not, Oblivion is and will always be considered an RPG, despite what one guy on the internet has to say about it. Is it right? It is for me, and that is all that matters to me. You feel its not, thats all that matters to you.
Firstly, for the record, I don't like Morrowind - please don't assume I do. I actually prefer Oblivion. Not everyone who dislikes Oblivion is a raargh smash teh non-Morrowind infidel! Oblivion-hater. Most of the reasons I dislike Oblivion are also present in Morrowind - except Oblivion's world is far more beautiful and far more enjoyable to explore.
Secondly, you have provided ample proof that the gaming community as a whole liked Oblivion, and nothing more. You have provided a lot of proof that a lot of people like something. This is the same community that hailed Gears of War as a masterpiece and BioShock as an industry changing work of art. I really don't see your point. You're more than intelligent enough to know that majority rule is proof of nothing, and review scores represent the opinions of a few individuals whose beliefs are no more legitimate than yours or mine.
I think I've made it pretty clear over my last three posts why I think Oblivion has very little capacity for roleplaying. That's not to say I don't think of it as a roleplaying game - I do, and I don't believe I said otherwise - but I personally believe that, while it has all the gameplay mechanics which define the roleplaying game genre, it is mostly a lifeless husk of a game as far as the breadth of the capacity for roleplaying goes.fatshodan
Understand that in my original post, I was not talking to you specifically. I was addressing all the Oblivion hate Ive been seeing on this forum lately. Theres not many things that piss me off, but ignorance and stupidity are two of them. Again, that original post was not directed at you specifically.
All I was saying to you specifically was that you may have been dissapointed, but a lot of people werent. Thats all. Many like myself were very happy with how Oblivion turned out. I was even happier when some of the better mods started coming out, like Obscuro's.
I don't see the merit in nitpicking my analogy while ignoring my point - my point being that the game and the modded game are two entirely different entities and a good modded game doesn't make for a good game - it makes for a good modded game. When talking about quality on an open forum, as I said, you need to have an established baseline. The only universal baseline is the vanilla game. When people argue about the game, they argue about the game - not the game with this mod or that mod.
It's great that the mods make Oblivion a better game - I've never tried them myself. I played through the entire game at release, long before every mod was released. Should the existence of these modes posthumously make my experience with the game better somehow? Of course not - those mods only make the game better if the people use them, which makes them an extreme variable, while the vanilla game is a universal constant. Everyone who buys the game will have the vanilla game - and for that reason, it is the vanilla game which should be used when judging the game in open discussion with a variety of different people who have all played different, personalised versions of the game.fatshodan
Well the paint argument you presented was pretty weak in my opinion. Thats like saying you can download a Hello Kitty flashlight mod for Doom 3, and all the sudden you arent playing Doom 3 anymore. You are now playing Hello Kitty Martian Adventure. All I did was point out the flaws in your analogy.
And yes everyone who buys the game will have the vanilla game, but fortunately those mods I speak so highly of are easy enough to aquire. Even when I had no internet I was still able to get the mods I wanted.
I completely agree, but your comments strongly implied that you think all PC gamers who don't mod are console kiddies, or something, which could be interpreted as more than a little bit offensive by some.fatshodan
Again that wasnt directed at you specifically, but at the general haters on here.
Well, I've never heard of this 'rule', but I personally would say that dismissing anyone's argument without a counter would be the only legitimate cause to have lost an argument - and at any rate, raising that after picking the entire post apart is somewhat moot.
Besides, I meant no offense by that comment - it was meant as more of a friendly thump on the arm than an insult. Doesn't go down well with people who don't know me, I suppose - but now you do, and I hope you took no offense as I certainly didn't intend any.
Your exact words were 'fact is they're both great games'. Or, to just illustrate that: Fact is: [my opinion here]. For someone saying people are full of themselves, that's an extremely arrogant comment.
fatshodan
I didnt take offense, I just thought you would have ended it better than that.
Like it or not its pretty much established that Oblivion is a great game. Anything less wont get all the accolades and sales figures it has. I hated the miserable piece of Hollywood crap that was Million Dollar Baby, but as much as I loathe it, its still considered a great movie, and one guy in his living room typing on a Gamespot PC Games forum isnt going to change that fact. And yes, the others on this thread are full of themselves. Feel what you want about that.
[QUOTE="Grim_Wolf88"]The game is good but it is not a good RPG. By PC standards this game fell flat on its face. But on the console I can see why it did so well. It was the closest thing to an RPG they had that they were willing to play because it had eye-candy, they didn't have to read, nor did they have to work hard or think. Bingo success! Shallow? Half-@**ed story that anybody could write and no depth in NPC's or world whatsoever save a few. Generic? It's a dumbed down rehash that does nothing to move the genre forward. Not an RPG? Almost all elements important to an RPG are missing to begin with!
df853
I strongly disagree. I guess I should ask, what aspects are there to an RPG? Here are a few I can name:
.
Having said all that, why is Oblivion not a good RPG? Maybe it's not a good game in your opinion, but I think it qualifies as an RPG.
Almost all elements important to an RPG are missing to begin with!Grim_Wolf88
???
1. I don't really think the story for Oblivion was all that great and the plot was shallow. It was after all the MAIN quest and yet the writing and all was substantually better for the the guild quest. To me the story seemed tacked on.
2. I agree that these are essential to RPG's as well but Oblivion had poor character development for NPC's and your own. NPC's were voice boxes repeating the same lines over and over and only a handful stood out and were well developed such as Lucien and Maiq. Your own character had poor development because there was a lack of limitations. If the world has well defined rules there are gonna be limitations and you shouldn't be allowed to do literally everything.
3. Touched on this closing number 2. For lore the game did a decent job of defining world rules. However these rules didn't seem to apply to your character all that much and almost had no direct effect to gameplay in this regard as it should.
4. While a main objective is nice I do not believe it to be a defining characteristic of RPG's. In the ideal RPG you should have your own goals as you would in real life. Maybe you just want to assasinate a hundred targets withing your characters lifetime? Role-playing is supposed to allow you to play a role whether or not it follows a path that leads to the games "main" objective.
Now I never said Oblivion was not a good game at all. I actually said it was a good game in my post. I didn't deny it was an RPG either. I said it was a poor one.
That last bit I admit that I am now even confused by what I meant by it. So just let it drop.
Ok, first off RPGs aren't about choice. Choice is just a luxury. The character development is great, you can become whatever you want to be you don't always end up becoming a battle tank. As far as it being first person, that actually makes it better, as far as the combat, it's great, much better than games like WOW which is really over rated. In fact I would like to point out that there are more RPGs that lack the choice aspect than RPGs that include it, in fact most RPGs don't even have the level of choice Oblivion had which isn't very much.
Sure there are problems with the game like the reuse of so many voices and the main storyline, but the qualities of the game more than make up for all of the problems it does have, which are small, there are no big problems with Oblivion. As for the main quest it could use work, but that's why there's so much extra content.
As for choice, it would be nice to some people, personally I don't care in fact I prefer it the way it is, but it's a luxury and not having it doesn't take away from the game at all even though it may be nice to add that.
Also as for it being generic, really just because a game has a common theme or setting doesn't make it a bad game, trying looking at more important aspects. Often games end up sucking because people try too hard to make them unique and they end up sacrificing quality.
Anyways. Some find it boring, some find it the funest game ever. I'm sure some of your favorite games have similar problems but you don't care because the overall game is good, complaining about every little problem is lame. If you're going to criticize, criticize about aspects that make the game bad, so far the only real problems that I noticed would be how you randomly get caught pickpocketing. I also despise how sometimes as a vampire you feed during the day, then rest, and when you wake up during the same day, you still have to feed again anyway.
Sorry if anything seems offensive or if I came across like a jerk, also sorry about the length but there were many points that needed to be made.
Darkside2205
thanks mate, i needed someone on my side who could argue well.
screw it, theres like and entire novel worth of writing on this topic, i'm not going to bother to read them all. i'm going to step out of my own topicwith_teeth26
Going by your sig, you might be interested to read some of our takes on it.
Both Morrowind and Oblivion have their strengths and weaknesses.
I played Oblivion with mods like Oscuros Oblivion Overhaul and interface mods, and I really enjoyed it. I easily put in over a thousand hours with a number of different characters doing different quest lines. I just wish the PC version had been like that out of the box, because I didn't enjoy the vanilla game as much.
However, I'm still going to go out on a limb here and offer some food for thought to the naysayers. How many other games on this scale can you name that allow you to add extra content or radically change the content of the single player campaign through mods? I'm not talking about making a single player level to play separately as with other games - but actually going in and rewriting parts of the single player campaign that shipped. You have to give Bethesda some credit for putting that kind of power into the hands of the end gamer, because you can pretty much mod the game so that it plays completely differently.
The other thing that ticks me off is people who rant about it not being an RPG, when in fact it forms a very nice foundation for actual role playing. You can choose to be whatever you want to be, without some of the stupid restrictions that come with other RPG games. If you end up being a master of everything - then that is frankly your fault for the way you chose to play your character in the game. When I've played different characters I've placed MY OWN restrictions on what they can or cannot do because that is how I am ROLE PLAYING that character. I find it refreshing not having a dev leaning over my shoulder every two minutes saying 'you can't do this and you can't do that because you chose class X'. I've played a few D&D games in my time, and I find the lack of restrictions refreshing. You don't have to become master of every skill or every guild unless YOU CHOOSE to do so.
Certainly the game could have done with more depth to the main quest and certain side quests, and yes the dialogue is repeated by some of the characters, but how is that different to other games (including Morrowind) where you end up reading the same vanilla responses to your questions from characters in the game world? I can't think of a single RPG where all the character dialogue is completely different for every single character in the game. Morrowind is even more guilty of this than other RPGs, where nearly every character can give you the same information over and over again. Yet I never see that criticised.
Could Oblivion have been better than the game that shipped? Absolutely! But it's not the mangy dog that many people like to kick around, especially if you use the mods freely available in the community. If you ignore the mods and just criticise the core game, then frankly I think you're being a hypocrite as a PC gamer, because one of the key strengths of the PC as a gaming platform is it's ability to mod games (and I see many PC gamers throwing around that argument against consoles).
Just to finish, I wish that quite a few games in my collection could be modded as easily as Oblivion, because there is always something niggling that gets under my skin after a while and makes me want to twist it back into shape to fit the way I want to play. I definitely feel that I got my money's worth with Oblivion, especially at a time when most games are becoming flash-in-a-pan experiences.
RobertBowen
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines?
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