So what innovations does SWTOR bring to the MMORPG genre?

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

Emotes can result in story progression. Stories can be developed entirely through player interaction and not with any influence from the developers at all, many sandboxes are proof of this. This is exactly how I believe the best stories in the genre mmo genre are developed, entirely through player interaction and unscripted.

Also, seeing some random person flirt with you is a whole lot different than witnessing your lover flirt with someone else.

SkyWard20

Different or not, NPC's are not designed to be responsive to player emotes for the most part. Emotes can only result in story progression to a very small extent and if they are scripted -- they were designed for player interactions first and foremost, and it's there where they're going to generate a response for the most part, too, simply because there are far, far superior tools for storytelling at a developer's disposal.

I wouldn't even qualify player-specific roleplaying in MMO's as storytelling at all, so you've sort of lost me there.

I was not talking specificly about player roleplaying, I was talking about general player interactions resulting in stories. Some player driven stories are even put out on mainstream news sources. As for Themepark MMOs, well there was a scandal going on in EQ2 which gathered quite a bit of attention. I would link it but it is Not Safe For Work.

But to answer why it is a waste of resources, since I didnt answer that.

Bioware romances have always been a combination of poorly written, romanticized, awkward and in many times, just feels out of place (with the exception of perhaps KotoR). Unless SWTOR proves me wrong in this, I will view it with extreme pessimism.

the only reason why people are so hyped is because its a "starwars" game and its made by bioware. Other than that, its not doing anything that has not allready been done.

Even Starwars Galalxies had better features, one that I really liked was Player Bounties. Which is not in SWTOR

[QUOTE="Jebus213"]

I really don't understand the hype for the game..

Bruin1986

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

Emotes can result in story progression. Stories can be developed entirely through player interaction and not with any influence from the developers at all, many sandboxes are proof of this. This is exactly how I believe the best stories in the genre mmo genre are developed, entirely through player interaction and unscripted.

Also, seeing some random person flirt with you is a whole lot different than witnessing your lover flirt with someone else.

Maroxad

Different or not, NPC's are not designed to be responsive to player emotes for the most part. Emotes can only result in story progression to a very small extent and if they are scripted -- they were designed for player interactions first and foremost, and it's there where they're going to generate a response for the most part, too, simply because there are far, far superior tools for storytelling at a developer's disposal.

I wouldn't even qualify player-specific roleplaying in MMO's as storytelling at all, so you've sort of lost me there.

I was not talking specificly about player roleplaying, I was talking about general player interactions resulting in stories. Some player driven stories are even put out on mainstream news sources. As for Themepark MMOs, well there was a scandal going on in EQ2 which gathered quite a bit of attention. I would link it but it is Not Safe For Work.

Isn't that what roleplaying is?

Bioware romances have always been a combination of poorly written, romanticized, awkward and in many times, just feels out of place (with the exception of perhaps KotoR). Unless SWTOR proves me wrong in this, I will view it with extreme pessimism.

Then what could you possibly expect out of a player-driven romance?

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

I was not talking specificly about player roleplaying, I was talking about general player interactions resulting in stories. Some player driven stories are even put out on mainstream news sources. As for Themepark MMOs, well there was a scandal going on in EQ2 which gathered quite a bit of attention. I would link it but it is Not Safe For Work.

Isn't that what roleplaying is?

Bioware romances have always been a combination of poorly written, romanticized, awkward and in many times, just feels out of place (with the exception of perhaps KotoR). Unless SWTOR proves me wrong in this, I will view it with extreme pessimism.

SkyWard20

Then what could you possibly expect out of a player-driven romance?

A romance that is far more realistic and long lasting than any Bioware romanace, less cinematic though. It also dephends on the roleplayers. Bioware has always had terrible romance sub-plots. So it shouldnt be too hard to have a better romance. Even worse are the subplots when they may feel forced upon you.

In either case, I am perfectly fine without romance in my games. Heck, for most games, I am better off that way.

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

I was not talking specificly about player roleplaying, I was talking about general player interactions resulting in stories. Some player driven stories are even put out on mainstream news sources. As for Themepark MMOs, well there was a scandal going on in EQ2 which gathered quite a bit of attention. I would link it but it is Not Safe For Work.

Isn't that what roleplaying is?

Bioware romances have always been a combination of poorly written, romanticized, awkward and in many times, just feels out of place (with the exception of perhaps KotoR). Unless SWTOR proves me wrong in this, I will view it with extreme pessimism.

Maroxad

Then what could you possibly expect out of a player-driven romance?

A romance that is far more realistic and long lasting than any Bioware romanace, less cinematic though. It also dephends on the roleplayers. Bioware has always had terrible romance sub-plots. So it shouldnt be too hard to have a better romance. Even worse are the subplots when they may feel forced upon you.

Hm. I'll stick with Drew Karpyshyn.

Well it doesn't have to revamp the MMO genre to be a great game. I don't care too much for the whole "what does it bring to the table that's new" argument.

Let me ask this....what did WoW bring "new" to the table that other MMOs didn't? Nothing major in my opinion....but they did it better than everyone else. But then other MMOs have brought "new" stuff like public quest (WAR) and Rifts (RIFT) and other crap and still they can't hold their own to Blizzards WoW.

The point is that a games does not have to bring a bunch of new crap to be a great game.

BSC14

Sorry, but after all the WoW clones, a new MMO does in fact need to bring something new. WoW in space is not going to cut it.

[QUOTE="MadCat46"][QUOTE="kozzy1234"]

Finally an MMO that...... HAS A BIG ASPECT ON STORYTELLING!

kozzy1234

I dissagree, 99% of mmos have crap story's, hopefully The Old Republic changes this

[QUOTE="kozzy1234"]

[QUOTE="MadCat46"] A lot of MMO's have had a strong aspect on story telling to some degree or another. vfibsux

I dissagree, 99% of mmos have crap story's, hopefully The Old Republic changes this

The problem is the poor storytelling, that is why people are uninterested. With Bioware quality storytellling, they might get people to actually care. If anyone has the potential to make us care about the story in an mmo it is Bioware. And this is coming from a Bioware hater.

[QUOTE="MadCat46"][QUOTE="kozzy1234"]

Finally an MMO that...... HAS A BIG ASPECT ON STORYTELLING!

kozzy1234

I dissagree, 99% of mmos have crap story's, hopefully The Old Republic changes this

People care for the story's?

Everything that people love about singleplayer games, thus missing the point of MMOs.

Baranga

or maybe everything that people love about singleplayer, melded together with MMO gameplay.

MMOs are fun, but they often lack a real sense of purpose. A story-driven MMO seems pretty damn sweet; the purpose of a singleplayer RPG matched with a vast universe of lore and planets, and a large community.

I really cannot imagine a better way to do an MMO. I just hope they nail the fundamentals.

i dont see the point either in having focus in story, i love campaigns and im the first to defend single player, but if you play mmorpgs you play it with your friends to talk with while you do some awesome stuff, mmorpgs should be all about gameplay imho and TOR looks bad, really bad, they should have done kotor 3.

Gief me guild wars 2.!

i dont see the point either in having focus in story, i love campaigns and im the first to defend single player, but if you play mmorpgs you play it with your friends to talk with while you do some awesome stuff, mmorpgs should be all about gameplay imho and TOR looks bad, really bad, they should have done kotor 3.

Gief me guild wars 2.!

Krelian-co

idunno, I see it as co-op x 1000000

if playing something like Gears of War with a buddy or going through any other number of games with great coop, then I imagine coop in something as huge as an MMO with tens of thousands of people is even better :)

I also think MMOs are more about community as much as they are about gameplay. There are better genres suited for rich, deep, complex gameplay...MMOs are just about simple fun with lots of people; socializing, questing, getting loot, teamwork, etc

But yeah, I am looking forward to GW2 soooooooooo much...maybe even as much as SW:TOR

What does it have to innovate to be a good game? WoW showed that innovation means very little so long as you can do what the other guys did, but better.

As far as what's new, I think it being fully-voiced carries a lot of weight.

What does it have to innovate to be a good game? WoW showed that innovation means very little so long as you can do what the other guys did, but better.

As far as what's new, I think it being fully-voiced carries a lot of weight.

airshocker

What does it have to innovate to be a good game? WoW showed that innovation means very little so long as you can do what the other guys did, but better.

As far as what's new, I think it being fully-voiced carries a lot of weight.

airshocker

It doesnt have to innovate, but it should try to feel fresh. In my generic scale I have 5 levels.

Generic: Doesnt even try to stand out, may add one or 2 gimmicks but overall the experience is the same you can get anywhere else. (SWTOR)
Evolutionary: Takes various elements that work within a genre, and improves on them meaningfully. (WoW)
Out of Norm: Doesnt innovate that much but brings an experience that isnt exactly the norm in said genre. May also attempt to improve on a lot of the elements. (GW2)
Innovative: A game that brings meaningful innovations and possiblly evolves the genre.
Unique: A unique take on the genre, or hell, may even invent its own genre. (Narbacular Drop)

WoW was Evolutionary, SWTOR looks more to belong in the Generic Category. BTW, cinematics have been done in MMOs before.

Edit: Generic is fine as long as the game works, but it may lose points thanks to diminishing returns.

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

What does it have to innovate to be a good game? WoW showed that innovation means very little so long as you can do what the other guys did, but better.

As far as what's new, I think it being fully-voiced carries a lot of weight.

Maroxad

It doesnt have to innovate, but it should try to feel fresh. In my generic scale I have 5 levels.

Generic: Doesnt even try to stand out, may add one or 2 gimmicks but overall the experience is the same you can get anywhere else. (SWTOR)
Evolutionary: Takes various elements that work within a genre, and improves on them meaningfully. (WoW)
Out of Norm: Doesnt innovate that much but brings an experience that isnt exactly the norm in said genre. May also attempt to improve on a lot of the elements. (GW2)
Innovative: A game that brings meaningful innovations and possiblly evolves the genre.
Unique: A unique take on the genre, or hell, may even invent its own genre. (Narbacular Drop)

WoW was Evolutionary, SWTOR looks more to belong in the Generic Category. BTW, cinematics have been done in MMOs before.

Edit: Generic is fine as long as the game works, but it may lose points thanks to diminishing returns.

Yeah, there are dozens of MMO's that have successfully accomplished everything I've listed before.

Guild Wars 2 -- out of the norm? What, public quests? We've already got that: Rift, Warhammer Online. Generic fantasy universe? Check.

The most unique thing I've seen Guild Wars 2 do is add some more lite roleplaying and narrative elements than conventionally seen in other MMORPG's-- which SWTOR already promises to take up to eleven.

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

What does it have to innovate to be a good game? WoW showed that innovation means very little so long as you can do what the other guys did, but better.

As far as what's new, I think it being fully-voiced carries a lot of weight.

SkyWard20

It doesnt have to innovate, but it should try to feel fresh. In my generic scale I have 5 levels.

Generic: Doesnt even try to stand out, may add one or 2 gimmicks but overall the experience is the same you can get anywhere else. (SWTOR)
Evolutionary: Takes various elements that work within a genre, and improves on them meaningfully. (WoW)
Out of Norm: Doesnt innovate that much but brings an experience that isnt exactly the norm in said genre. May also attempt to improve on a lot of the elements. (GW2)
Innovative: A game that brings meaningful innovations and possiblly evolves the genre.
Unique: A unique take on the genre, or hell, may even invent its own genre. (Narbacular Drop)

WoW was Evolutionary, SWTOR looks more to belong in the Generic Category. BTW, cinematics have been done in MMOs before.

Edit: Generic is fine as long as the game works, but it may lose points thanks to diminishing returns.

Yeah, there are dozens of MMO's that have successfully accomplished everything I've listed before.

Guild Wars 2 -- out of the norm? What, public quests? We've already got that: Rift, Warhammer Online. Generic fantasy universe? Check.

The most unique thing I've seen Guild Wars 2 do is add some more lite roleplaying and narrative elements than conventionally seen in other MMORPG's-- which SWTOR already promises to take up to eleven.

Skyword I'm sick of you bashing Guild Wars 2.... Stick to your argument about ToR.... Obviously Guild Wars 2 and ToR are completely different games, that you can hardly compare other than both of them being an MMO. For me ToR is a meh game at best... I have seen many videos for the game and its nothing special at all. And not something that excites me at all. And like the others said, it doesn't bring anything new to the table. Other than the voice acting.

P.S: Just stop bashing Guild Wars 2. Because Arena Net, the people making Guild Wars 2 are more respectable than Bioware in this day and age.Especially in making MMOs. Guild Wars 2 will be 10 times better an MMO than ToR will ever be.

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

What does it have to innovate to be a good game? WoW showed that innovation means very little so long as you can do what the other guys did, but better.

As far as what's new, I think it being fully-voiced carries a lot of weight.

SkyWard20

It doesnt have to innovate, but it should try to feel fresh. In my generic scale I have 5 levels.

Generic: Doesnt even try to stand out, may add one or 2 gimmicks but overall the experience is the same you can get anywhere else. (SWTOR)
Evolutionary: Takes various elements that work within a genre, and improves on them meaningfully. (WoW)
Out of Norm: Doesnt innovate that much but brings an experience that isnt exactly the norm in said genre. May also attempt to improve on a lot of the elements. (GW2)
Innovative: A game that brings meaningful innovations and possiblly evolves the genre.
Unique: A unique take on the genre, or hell, may even invent its own genre. (Narbacular Drop)

WoW was Evolutionary, SWTOR looks more to belong in the Generic Category. BTW, cinematics have been done in MMOs before.

Edit: Generic is fine as long as the game works, but it may lose points thanks to diminishing returns.

Yeah, there are dozens of MMO's that have successfully accomplished everything I've listed before.

Guild Wars 2 -- out of the norm? What, public quests? We've already got that: Rift, Warhammer Online. Generic fantasy universe? Check.

The most unique thing I've seen Guild Wars 2 do is add some more lite roleplaying and narrative elements than conventionally seen in other MMORPG's-- which SWTOR already promises to take up to eleven.

I would be defending guild wars 2 right now. But I am not defending it for the same reason I seldomly bring up console games here. Note that Out of the Norm games are not always innovative, what they basicly means is they dont jump on the bandwagon that a lot of the games in the same genre are doing. Btw, when discussing Guild Wars 2 and how innovative it was, I gave my opinion on this thread.

Even gaming journalists have accused SWTOR for being generic. However, it will be worth checking out, it despite that flaw. And here is why

• The Old Republic setting, but with friends.
• Promised to be more difficult than a lot of recent mmos.
• Companions which may mean there is actual non-instanced group content.
• Being able to form a group without any jedis
• Clint Eastwood

GW2 isnt that innovative either, however it will feel a lot more fresh than SWTOR.

What does it have to innovate to be a good game? WoW showed that innovation means very little so long as you can do what the other guys did, but better.

As far as what's new, I think it being fully-voiced carries a lot of weight.

airshocker

This is innovation, actually attempting to change the boring quest grinding system that WoW gave us and every MMO after it.

An excerpt.....

When building an MMO, we had to examine every core piece of accepted content from traditional games in the genre and ask, "How can this be improved?" By looking at the traditional quest system used in basically every MMO ever made, we've come to the conclusion that quests have a lot of areas for improvement. To address these flaws, we've developed our dynamic event system.

Traditional quest systems involve walking up to a character who usually has an exclamation point or question mark hovering over their head and talking to them. From here, you get a massive wall of text hardly anyone reads that describes a horrible or totally mundane thing going on in the world that you need to help with. You run off, complete this task, then return and talk to this character again to receive another wall of text and a reward. Traditional quest systems rely on these blocks of quest text to tell you what is happening in the world; this is just an outdated form of storytelling.

In Guild Wars 2, our event system won't make you read a huge quest description to find out what's going on. You'll experience it by seeing and hearing things in the world. If a dragon is attacking, you won't read three paragraphs telling you about it, you'll see buildings exploding in giant balls of fire, and hear characters in the game world screaming about a dragon attack. You'll hear guards from nearby cities trying to recruit players to go help fight the dragon, and see huge clouds of smoke in the distance, rising from the village under siege.

There is a second fundamental flaw to traditional quest systems: what the quest text tells you is happening in a quest is not actually what is happening in the world.

Continues in link provided...

becoz its WoW in space omg!11 herpa1

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/874061-SWTOR-information-gathered-thus-far-from-various-sources

^ All the information you need. Personally I think SWTOR looks great, but haters gonna hate.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/874061-SWTOR-information-gathered-thus-far-from-various-sources

^ All the information you need. Personally I think SWTOR looks great, but haters gonna hate.

Revolution_DDM

Looking great is exceedingly different than you installing the game and actually playing it. The hype machine is strong in this game, and I have an equally strong feeling it's going to tank. Hard.

This is innovation, actually attempting to change the boring quest grinding system that WoW gave us and every MMO after it.

Traditional quest systems involve walking up to a character who usually has an exclamation point or question mark hovering over their head and talking to them. From here, you get a massive wall of text hardly anyone reads that describes a horrible or totally mundane thing going on in the world that you need to help with. You run off, complete this task, then return and talk to this character again to receive another wall of text and a reward. Traditional quest systems rely on these blocks of quest text to tell you what is happening in the world; this is just an outdated form of storytelling.

vfibsux

I assume the developer was talking about Guild Wars 1 there, because that describes my experience with the game perfectly.

And this is actually one of the main things SWTOR seeks to address in MMO's.

[QUOTE="vfibsux"]

This is innovation, actually attempting to change the boring quest grinding system that WoW gave us and every MMO after it.

Traditional quest systems involve walking up to a character who usually has an exclamation point or question mark hovering over their head and talking to them. From here, you get a massive wall of text hardly anyone reads that describes a horrible or totally mundane thing going on in the world that you need to help with. You run off, complete this task, then return and talk to this character again to receive another wall of text and a reward. Traditional quest systems rely on these blocks of quest text to tell you what is happening in the world; this is just an outdated form of storytelling.

SkyWard20

I assume the developer was talking about Guild Wars 1 there, because that describes my experience with the game perfectly.

And this is actually one of the main things SWTOR seeks to address in MMO's.

Except that isnt how Guild Wars 1's storytelling worked. What you describe is the side questing experience. Guild Wars 1's main means of storytelling was through cutscenes and story driven missions.

Edit: Here is one of the many cutscenes in Guild Wars 1 (contains early prophesies spoilers).

[QUOTE="vfibsux"]

This is innovation, actually attempting to change the boring quest grinding system that WoW gave us and every MMO after it.

Traditional quest systems involve walking up to a character who usually has an exclamation point or question mark hovering over their head and talking to them. From here, you get a massive wall of text hardly anyone reads that describes a horrible or totally mundane thing going on in the world that you need to help with. You run off, complete this task, then return and talk to this character again to receive another wall of text and a reward. Traditional quest systems rely on these blocks of quest text to tell you what is happening in the world; this is just an outdated form of storytelling.

SkyWard20

I assume the developer was talking about Guild Wars 1 there, because that describes my experience with the game perfectly.

And this is actually one of the main things SWTOR seeks to address in MMO's.

That's one of the main things Guild Wars 2 seeks to address in MMO's. With Dynamic questing/events...Did you even click damn link?

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

What does it have to innovate to be a good game? WoW showed that innovation means very little so long as you can do what the other guys did, but better.

As far as what's new, I think it being fully-voiced carries a lot of weight.

SkyWard20

It doesnt have to innovate, but it should try to feel fresh. In my generic scale I have 5 levels.

Generic: Doesnt even try to stand out, may add one or 2 gimmicks but overall the experience is the same you can get anywhere else. (SWTOR)
Evolutionary: Takes various elements that work within a genre, and improves on them meaningfully. (WoW)
Out of Norm: Doesnt innovate that much but brings an experience that isnt exactly the norm in said genre. May also attempt to improve on a lot of the elements. (GW2)
Innovative: A game that brings meaningful innovations and possiblly evolves the genre.
Unique: A unique take on the genre, or hell, may even invent its own genre. (Narbacular Drop)

WoW was Evolutionary, SWTOR looks more to belong in the Generic Category. BTW, cinematics have been done in MMOs before.

Edit: Generic is fine as long as the game works, but it may lose points thanks to diminishing returns.

Yeah, there are dozens of MMO's that have successfully accomplished everything I've listed before.

Guild Wars 2 -- out of the norm? What, public quests? We've already got that: Rift, Warhammer Online. Generic fantasy universe? Check.

The most unique thing I've seen Guild Wars 2 do is add some more lite roleplaying and narrative elements than conventionally seen in other MMORPG's-- which SWTOR already promises to take up to eleven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBC_ig73aMs

cry all you want, deny all you want, bash all you want, you cant change facts. SWTOR = wow copy. GW2 = improvement to mmorpgs-

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

It doesnt have to innovate, but it should try to feel fresh. In my generic scale I have 5 levels.

Generic: Doesnt even try to stand out, may add one or 2 gimmicks but overall the experience is the same you can get anywhere else. (SWTOR)
Evolutionary: Takes various elements that work within a genre, and improves on them meaningfully. (WoW)
Out of Norm: Doesnt innovate that much but brings an experience that isnt exactly the norm in said genre. May also attempt to improve on a lot of the elements. (GW2)
Innovative: A game that brings meaningful innovations and possiblly evolves the genre.
Unique: A unique take on the genre, or hell, may even invent its own genre. (Narbacular Drop)

WoW was Evolutionary, SWTOR looks more to belong in the Generic Category. BTW, cinematics have been done in MMOs before.

Edit: Generic is fine as long as the game works, but it may lose points thanks to diminishing returns.

Krelian-co

Yeah, there are dozens of MMO's that have successfully accomplished everything I've listed before.

Guild Wars 2 -- out of the norm? What, public quests? We've already got that: Rift, Warhammer Online. Generic fantasy universe? Check.

The most unique thing I've seen Guild Wars 2 do is add some more lite roleplaying and narrative elements than conventionally seen in other MMORPG's-- which SWTOR already promises to take up to eleven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBC_ig73aMs

Seen this multiple times, along with some other stuff.

Don't know how can anyone say this is your typical generic MMO.

From what I've seen of TOR it's either going to be good or a complete disaster.Getting it because I like KOTOR a lot.But it can go either way.

It has not chance against GW2 though.

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

Yeah, there are dozens of MMO's that have successfully accomplished everything I've listed before.

Guild Wars 2 -- out of the norm? What, public quests? We've already got that: Rift, Warhammer Online. Generic fantasy universe? Check.

The most unique thing I've seen Guild Wars 2 do is add some more lite roleplaying and narrative elements than conventionally seen in other MMORPG's-- which SWTOR already promises to take up to eleven.

Krelian-co

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBC_ig73aMs

cry all you want, deny all you want, bash all you want, you cant change facts. SWTOR = wow copy. GW2 = improvement to mmorpgs-

Time to play Devil's Advocate (note these are not my opinions for most of the part, unless I had a really bad day).

10. So it may end up being polished. But a polished mess is still a mess.
9. The Music seems great so far. But even the best of artists have had their let-downs.
8. So self mentoring essentially. Everquest 2 did this like a year ago. Nothing new here.
7. So I will have plenty of moments then where I run around with nothing to do I guess. Boring. Besides, I really doubt many of the things, you save the town to have it invaded after an hour again?
6. "The combat in this game is going to be seriously awesome"... assuming lag doesnt ruin it.
5. No Monthly Fee, monthly fees do help keep some trolls and such out. So no monthly fee is not always as good as it seems.
4. They do look amazing, but who knows, they may just show the amazing parts. Oh and these areas might just be interesting for the first 3 times or so you explore them and then the scale just means it takes a long time to get to where you want to go.
3. PvP, but only in a few areas. And if one person just isnt that good at PvP, what if he gets harassed by his own server for that. "*insert insult*, you are bringing the server down."
2. Less skills, dumbing down? Instead of managing 15 cooldowns I now only have to worry about 10.
1. Ugh, I really wish I could stop playing Devil's Advocate now... but I have to go on, sigh. So, if I come to GW2 expecting to be the one take all the damage or heal others I will be sorely disappointed. There are people out there who love playing tanking roles and people out there who love playing healing roles. This is alienating them somewhat.

Oh and I have a video to show (though killing party members is not true anymore), and a article to show.

It doesnt have to innovate, but it should try to feel fresh. In my generic scale I have 5 levels.

Generic: Doesnt even try to stand out, may add one or 2 gimmicks but overall the experience is the same you can get anywhere else. (SWTOR)
Evolutionary: Takes various elements that work within a genre, and improves on them meaningfully. (WoW)
Out of Norm: Doesnt innovate that much but brings an experience that isnt exactly the norm in said genre. May also attempt to improve on a lot of the elements. (GW2)
Innovative: A game that brings meaningful innovations and possiblly evolves the genre.
Unique: A unique take on the genre, or hell, may even invent its own genre. (Narbacular Drop)

WoW was Evolutionary, SWTOR looks more to belong in the Generic Category. BTW, cinematics have been done in MMOs before.

Edit: Generic is fine as long as the game works, but it may lose points thanks to diminishing returns.

Maroxad

We're not talking about cinematics. We're talking about voice-overs with full character choice. That's an innovation. Let's not forget their attempt to make Flashpoints a complete social experience by incentivizing teamwork and group-play.

That makes SWTOR far from generic. RIFT is an example of a WoW-clone. Not SWTOR. But what do I know, I'm only in the beta. You don't judge a book by it's cover, which seems to be the only thing going on this thread.

I could not disagree more; WoW changed the genre. The innovation was making MMO's single player chat rooms, simplifying everything from crafting to questing, and end game consisting of gear raid grinding. Every MMO after has followed this same formula, WoW just did it better. WoW copied the basic MMO schematic and turned the genre upside down. Saying WoW copied EQ, Daoc, and UO and then did it better is an insult to those games imo.

vfibsux

WoW didn't innovate. It copied and tweaked. Everything WoW has done has come from games before it.

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

It doesnt have to innovate, but it should try to feel fresh. In my generic scale I have 5 levels.

Generic: Doesnt even try to stand out, may add one or 2 gimmicks but overall the experience is the same you can get anywhere else. (SWTOR)
Evolutionary: Takes various elements that work within a genre, and improves on them meaningfully. (WoW)
Out of Norm: Doesnt innovate that much but brings an experience that isnt exactly the norm in said genre. May also attempt to improve on a lot of the elements. (GW2)
Innovative: A game that brings meaningful innovations and possiblly evolves the genre.
Unique: A unique take on the genre, or hell, may even invent its own genre. (Narbacular Drop)

WoW was Evolutionary, SWTOR looks more to belong in the Generic Category. BTW, cinematics have been done in MMOs before.

Edit: Generic is fine as long as the game works, but it may lose points thanks to diminishing returns.

airshocker

We're not talking about cinematics. We're talking about voice-overs with full character choice. That's an innovation. Let's not forget their attempt to make Flashpoints a complete social experience by incentivizing teamwork and group-play.

That makes SWTOR far from generic. RIFT is an example of a WoW-clone. Not SWTOR. But what do I know, I'm only in the beta. You don't judge a book by it's cover, which seems to be the only thing going on this thread.

So adding a bit more voice overs passes for an innovation now. Remember how I said generic games can have gimmicks right?

Flashpoints are known as instances or dungeons in games and judging from the videos I have seen. They dont do much more to emphasize teamwork than any other mmo. Though, I will give them credit for having off tanks for 4 man dungeons.

Your words are naturally much stronger than mine due to you having actually played the game. However, I am commenting from what I have seen so far, which have left me somewhat unimpressed (and impressed in other areas). I should be careful criticizing it though, lest I fall for hypocrisy.

Edit: You are right there is one innovation within SWTOR though that I have never seen before. And that is the roll to speak thing.

So adding a bit more voice overs passes for an innovation now. Remember how I said generic games can have gimmicks right?

Flashpoints are known as instances or dungeons in games and judging from the videos I have seen. They dont do much more to emphasize teamwork than any other mmo. Though, I will give them credit for having off tanks for 4 man dungeons.

Your words are naturally much stronger than mine due to you having actually played the game. However, I am commenting from what I have seen so far, which have left me somewhat unimpressed (and impressed in other areas). I should be careful criticizing it though, lest I fall for hypocrisy.

Maroxad

A bit more? The entire game is voiced. All of your choices/responses are voiced. That's not just a bit.

Yes, Flashpoints are instances, but they're done in such a way that they actually come off as more of a story-arc than just "something you gotta' do to get gear." They do incentivize teamwork and grouping, I just can't tell you how, not matter how much I want to. In fact, the entire game incentivizes grouping.

What they've shown isn't the best, I'll be the first to agree, and I will also be the first to call the game out on it's faults as I do on the SWTOR forums, but you really have to try it before you write it off. I'm not saying it's going to change the face of MMORPGs, because I seriously doubt another studio will get the funding to fully voice their games, but it will be a legitimate alternative to everything out there.

Edit: You only roll to speak during group quests.

[QUOTE="vfibsux"]

I could not disagree more; WoW changed the genre. The innovation was making MMO's single player chat rooms, simplifying everything from crafting to questing, and end game consisting of gear raid grinding. Every MMO after has followed this same formula, WoW just did it better. WoW copied the basic MMO schematic and turned the genre upside down. Saying WoW copied EQ, Daoc, and UO and then did it better is an insult to those games imo.

airshocker

WoW didn't innovate. It copied and tweaked. Everything WoW has done has come from games before it.

Sure WoW innovated.. Its talent tree was unique to any other mmo out there.. And I am sorry.. But every genre builds off its predecesors and adds things.. That doesn't some how mean there is no innovation.. This is coming from some one who has played the gambit of MMORPGs from Eq1, Eq2, Warhammer Online, WoW, Guild Wars, to a few others..

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

So adding a bit more voice overs passes for an innovation now. Remember how I said generic games can have gimmicks right?

Flashpoints are known as instances or dungeons in games and judging from the videos I have seen. They dont do much more to emphasize teamwork than any other mmo. Though, I will give them credit for having off tanks for 4 man dungeons.

Your words are naturally much stronger than mine due to you having actually played the game. However, I am commenting from what I have seen so far, which have left me somewhat unimpressed (and impressed in other areas). I should be careful criticizing it though, lest I fall for hypocrisy.

airshocker

A bit more? The entire game is voiced. All of your choices/responses are voiced. That's not just a bit.

Yes, Flashpoints are instances, but they're done in such a way that they actually come off as more of a story-arc than just "something you gotta' do to get gear." They do incentivize teamwork and grouping, I just can't tell you how, not matter how much I want to. In fact, the entire game incentivizes grouping.

What they've shown isn't the best, I'll be the first to agree, and I will also be the first to call the game out on it's faults as I do on the SWTOR forums, but you really have to try it before you write it off. I'm not saying it's going to change the face of MMORPGs, because I seriously doubt another studio will get the funding to fully voice their games, but it will be a legitimate alternative to everything out there.

Edit: You only roll to speak during group quests.

Personally I think the rolling to speak is a good idea. It would suck if one person got all the options. Though I also hope there is a way to pass your roll, for instance, if decide to increase my speech related skills to an unusually high level. My brothers could pass their speech roll so we are guaranteed to use my speech skill.

Yes SWTOR is fully voice acted, but I wouldnt really call that an innovation. Mass Effect series is the same in that regard, of course SWTOR has a lot more voice acting. But does voice acting improve the gameplay.

Personally I am looking forward for SWTOR for one big reason. The fact that grouping is actually viable again for non-instanced areas. In WoW, everything died too fast and we got little exp, not to mention collect X quests ugh (I like what EQ2 did, if something dropped, one of the item dropped for everyone). I am gonna play with my bros, and I expect SWTOR to supply me with a good grouping experience, something too many mmos have failed to do, especially WoW.

Edit: You see, these awful collect X quests made quests take too long to complete. With my group of 3, these quests took 3 times as long to complete, if not more (due to waiting for respawns).

[QUOTE="Krelian-co"]

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

Yeah, there are dozens of MMO's that have successfully accomplished everything I've listed before.

Guild Wars 2 -- out of the norm? What, public quests? We've already got that: Rift, Warhammer Online. Generic fantasy universe? Check.

The most unique thing I've seen Guild Wars 2 do is add some more lite roleplaying and narrative elements than conventionally seen in other MMORPG's-- which SWTOR already promises to take up to eleven.

Maroxad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBC_ig73aMs

cry all you want, deny all you want, bash all you want, you cant change facts. SWTOR = wow copy. GW2 = improvement to mmorpgs-

Time to play Devil's Advocate (note these are not my opinions for most of the part, unless I had a really bad day).

10. So it may end up being polished. But a polished mess is still a mess.
9. The Music seems great so far. But even the best of artists have had their let-downs.
8. So self mentoring essentially. Everquest 2 did this like a year ago. Nothing new here.
7. So I will have plenty of moments then where I run around with nothing to do I guess. Boring. Besides, I really doubt many of the things, you save the town to have it invaded after an hour again?
6. "The combat in this game is going to be seriously awesome"... assuming lag doesnt ruin it.
5. No Monthly Fee, monthly fees do help keep some trolls and such out. So no monthly fee is not always as good as it seems.
4. They do look amazing, but who knows, they may just show the amazing parts. Oh and these areas might just be interesting for the first 3 times or so you explore them and then the scale just means it takes a long time to get to where you want to go.
3. PvP, but only in a few areas. And if one person just isnt that good at PvP, what if he gets harassed by his own server for that. "*insert insult*, you are bringing the server down."
2. Less skills, dumbing down? Instead of managing 15 cooldowns I now only have to worry about 10.
1. Ugh, I really wish I could stop playing Devil's Advocate now... but I have to go on, sigh. So, if I come to GW2 expecting to be the one take all the damage or heal others I will be sorely disappointed. There are people out there who love playing tanking roles and people out there who love playing healing roles. This is alienating them somewhat.

Oh and I have a video to show (though killing party members is not true anymore), and a article to show.

Have you ever played Guild Wars? So far with that artical and video you just proved that SWTOR will just be the same old MMORPG.

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

Time to play Devil's Advocate (note these are not my opinions for most of the part, unless I had a really bad day).

10. So it may end up being polished. But a polished mess is still a mess.
9. The Music seems great so far. But even the best of artists have had their let-downs.
8. So self mentoring essentially. Everquest 2 did this like a year ago. Nothing new here.
7. So I will have plenty of moments then where I run around with nothing to do I guess. Boring. Besides, I really doubt many of the things, you save the town to have it invaded after an hour again?
6. "The combat in this game is going to be seriously awesome"... assuming lag doesnt ruin it.
5. No Monthly Fee, monthly fees do help keep some trolls and such out. So no monthly fee is not always as good as it seems.
4. They do look amazing, but who knows, they may just show the amazing parts. Oh and these areas might just be interesting for the first 3 times or so you explore them and then the scale just means it takes a long time to get to where you want to go.
3. PvP, but only in a few areas. And if one person just isnt that good at PvP, what if he gets harassed by his own server for that. "*insert insult*, you are bringing the server down."
2. Less skills, dumbing down? Instead of managing 15 cooldowns I now only have to worry about 10.
1. Ugh, I really wish I could stop playing Devil's Advocate now... but I have to go on, sigh. So, if I come to GW2 expecting to be the one take all the damage or heal others I will be sorely disappointed. There are people out there who love playing tanking roles and people out there who love playing healing roles. This is alienating them somewhat.

Oh and I have a video to show (though killing party members is not true anymore), and a article to show.

Jebus213

Have you ever played Guild Wars? So far with that artical and video you just proved that SWTOR will just be the same old MMORPG.

Yes I have, it is one of my favorite games (top 30) in the last 10 years. I was merely playing devil's advocate.

SWTOR looks to be doing some new things, though wether they are for the better or worse is up to anyone to decide. SWTOR will feature artificial choices and consequences, a Star Fox-esque minigame and a visible crowd control bar. It is not doing a lot new, but to say it does nothing new to the mmo genre is probably false. Not much to improve the actual gameplay as you can see (why people bother with mmos to begin with), but it is better than nothing. It is no homefront.

Guild Wars 2 looks fresh, and could possibly change the entire mmo landscape, which SWTOR wont. It is also my most hyped up game for 2012. SWTOR doesnt look terrible however, and could be a good appetizer until the real course begins.

[QUOTE="Krelian-co"]

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

Yeah, there are dozens of MMO's that have successfully accomplished everything I've listed before.

Guild Wars 2 -- out of the norm? What, public quests? We've already got that: Rift, Warhammer Online. Generic fantasy universe? Check.

The most unique thing I've seen Guild Wars 2 do is add some more lite roleplaying and narrative elements than conventionally seen in other MMORPG's-- which SWTOR already promises to take up to eleven.

Maroxad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBC_ig73aMs

cry all you want, deny all you want, bash all you want, you cant change facts. SWTOR = wow copy. GW2 = improvement to mmorpgs-

Time to play Devil's Advocate (note these are not my opinions for most of the part, unless I had a really bad day).

10. So it may end up being polished. But a polished mess is still a mess. (who said it was a mess, this can be applied to anything and you are assuming things)
9. The Music seems great so far. But even the best of artists have had their let-downs. (again assuming, if someone has made great scores most of his carreeer is safer to assume the next one will be great, not the contrary))
8. So self mentoring essentially. Everquest 2 did this like a year ago. Nothing new here. (no one is saying gw2 will have absolutely everything new, but its a good system if well implemented)
7. So I will have plenty of moments then where I run around with nothing to do I guess. Boring. Besides, I really doubt many of the things, you save the town to have it invaded after an hour again? (no, it means you can be doing the normal stuff and something else happens, thinking you have to sit doing nothing while waiting for something to happen is just a biased and fail argument)
6. "The combat in this game is going to be seriously awesome"... assuming lag doesnt ruin it. (assuming again, you said it, it lag can ruin any game online no?)
5. No Monthly Fee, monthly fees do help keep some trolls and such out. So no monthly fee is not always as good as it seems. (you still have to buy the game, whos gonna buy a game to troll? besides they will have some system for lower lvls not spamming others)
4. They do look amazing, but who knows, they may just show the amazing parts. Oh and these areas might just be interesting for the first 3 times or so you explore them and then the scale just means it takes a long time to get to where you want to go. (assuming again, its even self explanatory, you are assunming they just have these zones they showed but from the videos ive seen most of them are)
3. PvP, but only in a few areas. And if one person just isnt that good at PvP, what if he gets harassed by his own server for that. "*insert insult*, you are bringing the server down." (play on a non pvp server then, problem solved)
2. Less skills, dumbing down? Instead of managing 15 cooldowns I now only have to worry about 10. (dude i dont have time to think for you always, did you not see every char can have various weapons, so you can have many skills and weapons for differents situations, and you can combine them as you like? is better than having your archetype only skills, plus the sills are significant, just check their page, not your hit + add dmg stuff)
1. Ugh, I really wish I could stop playing Devil's Advocate now... but I have to go on, sigh. So, if I come to GW2 expecting to be the one take all the damage or heal others I will be sorely disappointed. There are people out there who love playing tanking roles and people out there who love playing healing roles. This is alienating them somewhat. (did you really miss the point or are actively making questions that shows how little attention you have? you can be healer and you can be the tank, you are just not chained to only that, if you use sword and shield and pick the defender clas you will be the tank but if there is 2 tanks and no healer, you switch to your staff and robes and go heal)

Oh and I have a video to show (though killing party members is not true anymore), and a article to show.

most your points dont even make any sense, use an absurd argument to answer, assume things or can be applied to every mmorpgs

Personally I think the rolling to speak is a good idea. It would suck if one person got all the options. Though I also hope there is a way to pass your roll, for instance, if decide to increase my speech related skills to an unusually high level. My brothers could pass their speech roll so we are guaranteed to use my speech skill.

Yes SWTOR is fully voice acted, but I wouldnt really call that an innovation. Mass Effect series is the same in that regard, of course SWTOR has a lot more voice acting. But does voice acting improve the gameplay.

Personally I am looking forward for SWTOR for one big reason. The fact that grouping is actually viable again for non-instanced areas. In WoW, everything died too fast and we got little exp, not to mention collect X quests ugh (I like what EQ2 did, if something dropped, one of the item dropped for everyone). I am gonna play with my bros, and I expect SWTOR to supply me with a good grouping experience, something too many mmos have failed to do, especially WoW.

Edit: You see, these awful collect X quests made quests take too long to complete. With my group of 3, these quests took 3 times as long to complete, if not more (due to waiting for respawns).

Maroxad

I'm mainly bitter because there's an aspect of the social system I don't like. It has to do with XP.

Sure WoW innovated.. Its talent tree was unique to any other mmo out there.. And I am sorry.. But every genre builds off its predecesors and adds things.. That doesn't some how mean there is no innovation.. This is coming from some one who has played the gambit of MMORPGs from Eq1, Eq2, Warhammer Online, WoW, Guild Wars, to a few others..

sSubZerOo

I'm not upset that games build off their predecessors. I personally prefer games that take something that works and make it better.

I could have sworn WoW took the talent tree system from somewhere, though.

Just because a game doesn't revolutionize the gaming industry doesn't mean it isn't worth playing. That's just ridiculous.Ghost_702

i agree, but when its a blatant copy of another game it should be burned in a stake

Im much more looking forward to guild wars 2 in honesty.

firefluff3

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

[QUOTE="Krelian-co"]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBC_ig73aMs

cry all you want, deny all you want, bash all you want, you cant change facts. SWTOR = wow copy. GW2 = improvement to mmorpgs-

Krelian-co

Time to play Devil's Advocate (note these are not my opinions for most of the part, unless I had a really bad day).

10. So it may end up being polished. But a polished mess is still a mess. (who said it was a mess, this can be applied to anything and you are assuming things)
9. The Music seems great so far. But even the best of artists have had their let-downs. (again assuming, if someone has made great scores most of his carreeer is safer to assume the next one will be great, not the contrary))
8. So self mentoring essentially. Everquest 2 did this like a year ago. Nothing new here. (no one is saying gw2 will have absolutely everything new, but its a good system if well implemented)
7. So I will have plenty of moments then where I run around with nothing to do I guess. Boring. Besides, I really doubt many of the things, you save the town to have it invaded after an hour again? (no, it means you can be doing the normal stuff and something else happens, thinking you have to sit doing nothing while waiting for something to happen is just a biased and fail argument)
6. "The combat in this game is going to be seriously awesome"... assuming lag doesnt ruin it. (assuming again, you said it, it lag can ruin any game online no?)
5. No Monthly Fee, monthly fees do help keep some trolls and such out. So no monthly fee is not always as good as it seems. (you still have to buy the game, whos gonna buy a game to troll? besides they will have some system for lower lvls not spamming others)
4. They do look amazing, but who knows, they may just show the amazing parts. Oh and these areas might just be interesting for the first 3 times or so you explore them and then the scale just means it takes a long time to get to where you want to go. (assuming again, its even self explanatory, you are assunming they just have these zones they showed but from the videos ive seen most of them are)
3. PvP, but only in a few areas. And if one person just isnt that good at PvP, what if he gets harassed by his own server for that. "*insert insult*, you are bringing the server down." (play on a non pvp server then, problem solved)
2. Less skills, dumbing down? Instead of managing 15 cooldowns I now only have to worry about 10. (dude i dont have time to think for you always, did you not see every char can have various weapons, so you can have many skills and weapons for differents situations, and you can combine them as you like? is better than having your archetype only skills, plus the sills are significant, just check their page, not your hit + add dmg stuff)
1. Ugh, I really wish I could stop playing Devil's Advocate now... but I have to go on, sigh. So, if I come to GW2 expecting to be the one take all the damage or heal others I will be sorely disappointed. There are people out there who love playing tanking roles and people out there who love playing healing roles. This is alienating them somewhat. (did you really miss the point or are actively making questions that shows how little attention you have? you can be healer and you can be the tank, you are just not chained to only that, if you use sword and shield and pick the defender clas you will be the tank but if there is 2 tanks and no healer, you switch to your staff and robes and go heal)

Oh and I have a video to show (though killing party members is not true anymore), and a article to show.

most your points dont even make any sense, use an absurd argument to answer, assume things or can be applied to every mmorpgs

Besides, by just looking at the movie i could see about 5 different things that sounds interesting now, but will probably not work out all that well in the end. I mean, dodge rolling every move? That will be a chore after a while.

Definately gonna give it a try tho, they really tried to make something special.

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

Time to play Devil's Advocate (note these are not my opinions for most of the part, unless I had a really bad day).

10. So it may end up being polished. But a polished mess is still a mess. (who said it was a mess, this can be applied to anything and you are assuming things)
9. The Music seems great so far. But even the best of artists have had their let-downs. (again assuming, if someone has made great scores most of his carreeer is safer to assume the next one will be great, not the contrary))
8. So self mentoring essentially. Everquest 2 did this like a year ago. Nothing new here. (no one is saying gw2 will have absolutely everything new, but its a good system if well implemented)
7. So I will have plenty of moments then where I run around with nothing to do I guess. Boring. Besides, I really doubt many of the things, you save the town to have it invaded after an hour again? (no, it means you can be doing the normal stuff and something else happens, thinking you have to sit doing nothing while waiting for something to happen is just a biased and fail argument)
6. "The combat in this game is going to be seriously awesome"... assuming lag doesnt ruin it. (assuming again, you said it, it lag can ruin any game online no?)
5. No Monthly Fee, monthly fees do help keep some trolls and such out. So no monthly fee is not always as good as it seems. (you still have to buy the game, whos gonna buy a game to troll? besides they will have some system for lower lvls not spamming others)
4. They do look amazing, but who knows, they may just show the amazing parts. Oh and these areas might just be interesting for the first 3 times or so you explore them and then the scale just means it takes a long time to get to where you want to go. (assuming again, its even self explanatory, you are assunming they just have these zones they showed but from the videos ive seen most of them are)
3. PvP, but only in a few areas. And if one person just isnt that good at PvP, what if he gets harassed by his own server for that. "*insert insult*, you are bringing the server down." (play on a non pvp server then, problem solved)
2. Less skills, dumbing down? Instead of managing 15 cooldowns I now only have to worry about 10. (dude i dont have time to think for you always, did you not see every char can have various weapons, so you can have many skills and weapons for differents situations, and you can combine them as you like? is better than having your archetype only skills, plus the sills are significant, just check their page, not your hit + add dmg stuff)
1. Ugh, I really wish I could stop playing Devil's Advocate now... but I have to go on, sigh. So, if I come to GW2 expecting to be the one take all the damage or heal others I will be sorely disappointed. There are people out there who love playing tanking roles and people out there who love playing healing roles. This is alienating them somewhat. (did you really miss the point or are actively making questions that shows how little attention you have? you can be healer and you can be the tank, you are just not chained to only that, if you use sword and shield and pick the defender clas you will be the tank but if there is 2 tanks and no healer, you switch to your staff and robes and go heal)

Oh and I have a video to show (though killing party members is not true anymore), and a article to show.

Krelian-co

most your points dont even make any sense, use an absurd argument to answer, assume things or can be applied to every mmorpgs

I was not speaking for myself, I just took a bunch of points I have seen thrown around. And yes a lot of those are assumptions. Personally, Guild Wars 2 looks great, and that video made excellent points.

7. Be doing the normal stuff means questing in this day and age for a lot of mmo players. Or gathering once they reach level cap.
6. True lag can ruin any game, but twitch and action based games are hurt more.
5. Who knows, when the game gets cheap perhaps. But it is pretty much generally agreed that if there is one positive thing about monthly fees it is that they help keep the trolls away.
2. I have debated the same way you do, but I know several people who are against it.
1. But some people never want to touch a Tank role in a group, some people like it more when one person is always the tank, one person is always the healer.

Again none of those is speaking for me. Here is how I feel deep inside about them.

10. After playing Guild Wars 1 as well as them saying it is done when it is done. I doubt we are going to get a bad product, besides it looks so promising.
9. Jeremy Soule has not disappointed me so far, and I doubt he will do so for Guild Wars. But there is always a small chance he might disappoint, keyword being small.
8. Self Mentoring was an awesome idea in EverQuest 2. And I am glad seeing it in more mmos.
7. Less handholding and bigger sense of freedom. Count me in.
6. The combat will be fun. Dynamic and hopefully less predictable than most mmos. Rolling gets me worried however, mostly because of how broken that was in Demons Souls (rolling made PvP boring and the game too easy).
5. F2P is nice, but there is indeed a slight chance of this increasing the troll population. P2P has a few perks.
4. Considering everything they have shown so far, I really dont have any concerns. There might be a few areas weaker than others but overall I wouldnt worry.
3. Did you see this video? The World PvP, that seams relatively meaningful, compared to most world PvP systems in modern mmos anyway. The Pick Up play is seriously awesome as well, being able to pick my own settings, yes please. PvP in Guild Wars 2 is gonna be awesome, just like it was in Guild Wars 1.
2. I loved the skill limit system in Guild Wars 1 and Pokemon. I will probably love it here as well, my warrior is going to be COMPLETELY different from that other warrior. You can carry 2 weapon sets, so that means 5*2+5 skills. Though you can change your skills and weapon sets outside combat. I like this system personally.
1. I think the current role system is awful. Tanking and its broken mechanic of threat. Healing, meaning that as long as the healers can take it, people are free to screw up as much as possible. Role system in its current implementation removes teamwork if anything. GW2's role system seems to encourage it more. Again linking to Alexredicilous' videos. Now Tanking and Healing can work, but I have hopes Guild Wars 2 fixes my issues with it.