the developers of stalker may change their mind about making games for pc.

games are just as easily pirated on consoles.....believe meacidBURN1942

Yep, it's called a Mod-Chip.  However, you have to obtain and personally install the modchip for current generation consoles (Pre-modded PS2s have only recently hit the market ~ 'recently' being relative to the PS2's lifespan)  And that can dissuade alot of people from bothering to pirate a console game.  If you are referring to PC emulation of burned game discs, then you have to realise that the average(!) computer can only just now run a PS2 game at a high FPS with the overhead of keeping it's OS running, throw the odd bit of spyware into the mix and it won't even be worth playing.  If you want to play a pirated PC game, the only requirements are that your PC turns on and isn't 10 years old.

So... Yes, console games ARE "...just as easily pirated..." however, the market for the pirated games is much smaller.  The number of people that have a mod-chip compared to the number of people who own a PC are vastly unbalanced.  The developers are making a move toward the lesser of two evils you might say.

 I have personally never burned a game I have downloaded, I use pirated software as rental company perse.  The same thing with movies and games for me, if I enjoy it then I will invest money in it, the producers/developers deserve to be paid for a good product.  But I suppose this is kinda honor-system based, I have serious doubts that there are alot of poeple like me out there who would be willing to spend their money on something they already have.

[QUOTE="acidBURN1942"]games are just as easily pirated on consoles.....believe mecajunXLVII

Funny, because you can't even pirate most of id's and Epic's games, since you need to authorize your CD key when you play their games online, and most of their games are online games..............

It's just a scape goat....... 

So... Yes, console games ARE "...just as easily pirated..." however, the market for the pirated games is much smaller. 

kafuffle

Consoles have a much bigger problem then internet piracy in the form of 'legalized piracy', meaning the used game industry. Gamestop, funcoland, game crazy, and now ever CircuitCity and Best Buy are getting into it.

Reselling used games is now a billion dollars a year industry that give zero money to the developers and publishers that made the games. Resellers make more profit off a used game then the maker made off a new game, then they can sell the same copy of the game multple times.

The developers see no differance from buying a used copy or downloading off the internet, they are all the same lost sale of a new game. Not everone knows how to find/crack /mod games, but they all know how to walk into thier local mall and buy a used game.

The worst part is that a new game is often only $5 more then the used one, I would rather see the money go to the developers that spent years making the game then see it go to the 'digital pimps' that make more profit reselling them, their mark up on games is often over 300%, for what? I little shelf space, while the developers make a  no where near that for all the work of accually creating something.

So, the moving into the console market to aviod internet piracy seems short sighted.

[QUOTE="acsguitar"]

Game developers need to work on ways to stop pirating rather then complaining and threatening to pull PC games.

 

SR_Caveman

The above comment you made.  I asked "why"? As in "why should they?"

The day PC goes MMO only is the day I take a sledge hammer to my computer!OgreB

Also changing the way games are developed could vastly reduce the time and cost of both developing and porting a game and make piracy less of a problem. It should not cost $100 million to develop a game. Better tools and maybe even open-source components would do wonders for the industry.

Regardless, you can't fight the customer. Combatting piracy through litigation and copy protection is stupid.

In reality, the developpers are just lazy. It is much easier to code a game for a XBOX or a playstation because it is just one system. PCs are much harder because you have to satisfy all different types of chips, especially the top 4: AMD, INTEL, ATI and nVIDIA. They use piracy as an excuse yet still they're dishing out games each year. If this is a huge "problem", wouldn't they just design the games to act like consoles, running it directly from the DVD? It is definitely possible. Today developpers are getting lazier and lazier each time. I see developpers play videogames while working and they wonder why their games have low reviews. Come on! Wake Up... Don't be like Microsoft and blame pirates of your poor products. PC Games have always been pirated. if it weren't for pirates, people can never upgrade their computers. Do you expect PC Gamers to be millionaires! I personally hate piracy myself but at the same time, i hate these whining developpers who cannot take their own blame into it.

Epic only doing the UT3 Multiplatform because of increasing their profits. Valve have made an effort for anti-piracy and I praise to them. So to all the developpers, DO YOUR JOBS!

In reality, the developpers are just lazy. It is much easier to code a game for a XBOX or a playstation because it is just one system. PCs are much harder because you have to satisfy all different types of chips, especially the top 4: AMD, INTEL, ATI and nVIDIA. They use piracy as an excuse yet still they're dishing out games each year. If this is a huge "problem", wouldn't they just design the games to act like consoles, running it directly from the DVD? It is definitely possible. Today developpers are getting lazier and lazier each time. I see developpers play videogames while working and they wonder why their games have low reviews. Come on! Wake Up... Don't be like Microsoft and blame pirates of your poor products. PC Games have always been pirated. if it weren't for pirates, people can never upgrade their computers. Do you expect PC Gamers to be millionaires! I personally hate piracy myself but at the same time, i hate these whining developpers who cannot take their own blame into it.

Epic only doing the UT3 Multiplatform because of increasing their profits. Valve have made an effort for anti-piracy and I praise to them. So to all the developpers, DO YOUR JOBS!

nytemarex

AlbertE-

 What are you trying to say? You cannot agree with me?

[QUOTE="AlbertE-"]nytemarex

What are you trying to say? You cannot agree with me?

[QUOTE="kafuffle"]

So... Yes, console games ARE "...just as easily pirated..." however, the market for the pirated games is much smaller. 

Sgt-Damain

Consoles have a much bigger problem then internet piracy in the form of 'legalized piracy', meaning the used game industry. Gamestop, funcoland, game crazy, and now ever CircuitCity and Best Buy are getting into it.

Reselling used games is now a billion dollars a year industry that give zero money to the developers and publishers that made the games. Resellers make more profit off a used game then the maker made off a new game, then they can sell the same copy of the game multple times.

The developers see no differance from buying a used copy or downloading off the internet, they are all the same lost sale of a new game. Not everone knows how to find/crack /mod games, but they all know how to walk into thier local mall and buy a used game.

The worst part is that a new game is often only $5 more then the used one, I would rather see the money go to the developers that spent years making the game then see it go to the 'digital pimps' that make more profit reselling them, their mark up on games is often over 300%, for what? I little shelf space, while the developers make a  no where near that for all the work of accually creating something.

So, the moving into the console market to aviod internet piracy seems short sighted.

That would make rentals tough. 

So

That would make rentals tough. 

Taijiquan

Yes, it would. But why should game developers have to compete with Blockbuster video for money from their own game? True, Blockbuster stores do buy their games, but it still willl lose some sales for them.

Imagine if a Hollywood movie was avalible on DvD at Blockbuster the SAME day it was released in theaters, it would certianly kill the box office for the movie producers wouldn't it?

That is why it comes out for rental 6 months later, the same could be done with game rental, if you're willing to wait ^ months after release to rent it fine, that would allow the developers time to make some money without cannibalizing thier sales.

@ Subzero: An independant review of the situation is all fine and dandy. But you are forgetting one thing. This is not a "we need an independant voice to see whether I (gamers) or they (Devs and Pubs) win". This is not a contest or a court case.

If publishers and developers believe that far too much stealing is going on, it is one more reason (to add to a long list) of reasons to move away from PCs and into consoles.

As for Gal Civ: that was a one-off amazing marketting move that got an even bigger boost from an SF PR blunder.

@ ALMOST everyone else: 

You guys are doing a great job of convincing yourselves that stealing is nothing. You don't need any help from anyone in proving your points to each other. But do you honestly think that Devs and Publishers will ever share those views. Do you really think that Devs are going to look on thief sites at the number of downloads and then come here and believe the reasoning going on here? 

No, they won't. They won't think you are justified in stealing their game to "try it out" before you buy it or any of those ridiculous reasons. You think you are within your rights to act the way you do but Devs and Pubs won't agree with you.

140,000 illegal downloads (just for torrents) is disgusting. I can completely understand how the makers of STALKER would feel at seeing that. I would never make a game for PC again after that.  

In some issues, the gaming community can be fairly perceptive. But when it comes to this issue, there are delusions floating around everywhere. 

[QUOTE="SR_Caveman"][QUOTE="acsguitar"]

Game developers need to work on ways to stop pirating rather then complaining and threatening to pull PC games.

 

acsguitar

The above comment you made. I asked "why"? As in "why should they?"

And copy protection or online verifcation do not count as systems developed to stop games being stolen?

Ask any thief and he will tell you with great pride at how every protection system can be broken eventually.

So why bother?

Why not just go somewhere (consoles) where stealing is less of a problem?  

[QUOTE="SR_Caveman"]

 

And copy protection or online verifcation do not count as systems developed to stop games being stolen?

Ask any thief and he will tell you with great pride at how every protection system can be broken eventually.

So why bother?SR_Caveman

they shouldn't. All those heavy anti-warez systems are pure crap. They will get broken anyway and in the end the only users who end up having dificulties are those who bought the games legaly. it's crappy way to say "thank you" to people who are providing

the food to developers. 

 

 

Why not just go somewhere (consoles) where stealing is less of a problem?  

SR_Caveman

Oh...please, don't act like consoel realm is some sort of promised land. 

if it would be so nice there you would see a lot of independent developers there. But in reality there are almost none, the market is so harsh almost everybody is owned by somebody. 

@ Adrian: Your anti-warez argument falls precisely into the long list of ideas that are passed around here that mean nothing to Developers. People can come here and say that it only hurts the legitimate people but it doesn't hurt them. That is just an idea that falls under the heading of "justifications for stealing". This whole thread is full of those ideas.

You need to start thinking differently on these matters. Unless you are really only interested in proving points to yourself and like minded people. Because you are not proving it to Developers and Publishers.  

As for consoles being the promised land:

1. More customers

2. Less thieves (or at least a smaller ratio of thieves to real customers) 

Sounds like the promised land to me... 

@ Adrian: Your anti-warez argument falls precisely into the long list of ideas that are passed around here that mean nothing to Developers. People can come here and say that it only hurts the legitimate people but it doesn't hurt them. That is just an idea that falls under the heading of "justifications for stealing". This whole thread is full of those ideas.SR_Caveman

actualy it does hurt legal buyers. I hate to have to put the disc in everytime I want to play a game.

 I hate the problems Starforce is doing to my DVD burner. I hate how slower the game start with cd-check(which doesn't always work anyway)

It's paradox, but I often have to download cracks and install them over the legal copy just to save myself some trouble.

I have to find ways to make back-up copies of the discs, because I can't do it normaly(which I AM entitled to, especialy since constantly using the cd 

makes scratches)

And all this is because I'm decent enough gamer to buy original copies. lots of my friends play only warez and 

they are having  much easier time with it than I do with original copy. 

I often feel like I'm beeing punished for doing the right thing, I feel like a "sucker"

good thing I love pcgaming too much for such problems to convince me to  play warez.  

As for consoles being the promised land:

1. More customers

2. Less thieves (or at least a smaller ratio of thieves to real customers) 

 

SR_Caveman

you forgot:

1.Much bigger dev and marketing costs

2.Much bigger and more fierce competition

But I guess since you suffer so much having to deal with Pcgaming and pcgamers then there's no reason for me to buy 

any more Panzers games.

Since you seem to lack respect9or at least you don't shown any sign of it) for people who feed you and your family

 I will just give money to people who can actualy aprecieate it. 

Sure, there are problems with piracy in Pcgaming, but somehow there was enough people to get your whinny as$es 

through 4 games. If you hate it here so much then go to consoles, just don't come crying if you go bancrupt ( as strategy 

games sell like crap on consoles and strategy devs have historicaly been known for making awfuly crappy action games) or get bought

out and absorbed.

I guess I should save my money for World in Conflict instead of supporting Panzers COld War. I mean... I will be doing you a favor,

i mean you obviously hate it here, so it would be cruel, almost inhuman to let you stay in pcgaming any longer.

 I'm not a hearless bastard, watching you suffer isn't making me feel good, I feel the need to help you get out of this "hell"

[QUOTE="Uncle_Tbag"][QUOTE="MachetazoZ"]

[QUOTE="cajunXLVII"][QUOTE="acidBURN1942"]games are just as easily pirated on consoles.....believe meHavocEbonlore

Man, believe him, I don't own a console but if the developers think that games aren't pirated in console versions they couldn't be more wrong.

Exactly PSP version 1.5 ..enough said!

And we honorable PC gamers who pay for our games, are ultimately the ones who suffer from this.

Adrian:

I have been playing video games since around 1980. I have always put cartridges or disks in whatever (PC, old Atari console etc.). This is the way the industry has worked since day one. Some people are adverse to putting a disk in but to call that being hurt is excessive.

As for Starforce, I know plenty about that. You are in a far better position than your friends. When they come crying to you because circumventing the copy protection broke their computer, remember this conversation and laugh in their faces. I know what circumventing entails and I know the excessive dangers inherent in that. Developers know far more about the stealing culture (where to get it, how to circumvent it, what it does) than the vast majority of thieves.  

 As for our games, thanks for the plug. I didn't join this conversation to talk about us (Stormregion) specifically but rather to talk about the industry as a whole. But it is worth pointing out that our next two announced games (Codename Panzers Cold War and Rush for the Bomb) are both PC games. But we are always looking at the console market and weighing the pros and the cons.

Your points: 

1. Bigger dev and marketting costs: Says who? Programming a game for a single configuration is more expensive?

2. More competition: Again, says who? You don't think everyone is trying to make games in an overcrowded PC market? Every game in every genre has to fight with every other game. FPS games all compete with each other, so do RTS games.  

 Lastly, this is not about me hating the PC gaming industry and me not appreciating the honest people who support our games (or anyones games). This is about me telling you (and others) to pull your heads out of the sand and realize that this really is an important issue. Downplaying its importance or justifying it is great for those whose purposes it serves. But in the long run, any lack of support of the industry only hurts and doesn't help. 

It would almost be better to see those who steal games to come here and say: I don't care if Developers and Publishers abandon PC gaming and it dies because (in part) of me stealing. Because at least they would understand that it does impact on the development process. Because money that does not go into the pockets of Developers and Publishers does not go into paying the development costs for future games.

Lastly, I don't know what you are doing but your formatting is screwy and runs off the page. ;) 

And we honorable PC gamers who pay for our games, are ultimately the ones who suffer from this.

Rostere

Yes, you do. It would be better if thieves did not leech of the gaming industry and drive folks like the STALKER makers away from PC games. But you can hardly blame them when there is 140,000 downloads written in black and white (just torrents).  

@ Adrian:

By the way, if you think it hurts legitmate users to put a disk in a drive, that is nothing compared to the hurt caused to legitimate users by seeing more developers and publishers move to consoles.

And instead of placing the blame and directing your anger at the Devs and Pubs, it should be directed at the people who caused this to happen: thieves.  

And I personally am not a console gamer. I am a diehard PC gamer.  

[QUOTE="Rostere"]

And we honorable PC gamers who pay for our games, are ultimately the ones who suffer from this.

SR_Caveman

Yes, you do. It would be better if thieves did not leech of the gaming industry and drive folks like the STALKER makers away from PC games. But you can hardly blame them when there is 140,000 downloads written in black and white (just torrents).  

thats life..

Adrian:

I have been playing video games since around 1980. I have always put cartridges or disks in whatever (PC, old Atari console etc.). This is the way the industry has worked since day one. Some people are adverse to putting a disk in but to call that being hurt is excessive.
SR_Caveman

As for Starforce, I know plenty about that. You are in a far better position than your friends. When they come crying to you because circumventing the copy protection broke their computer, remember this conversation and laugh in their faces. I know what circumventing entails and I know the excessive dangers inherent in that. SR_Caveman

Bigger dev and marketting costs: Says who? Programming a game for a single configuration is more expensive?SR_Caveman

More competition: Again, says who? You don't think everyone is trying to make games in an overcrowded PC market? SR_Caveman

[QUOTE="SR_Caveman"][QUOTE="Rostere"]

And we honorable PC gamers who pay for our games, are ultimately the ones who suffer from this.

d_agra

Yes, you do. It would be better if thieves did not leech of the gaming industry and drive folks like the STALKER makers away from PC games. But you can hardly blame them when there is 140,000 downloads written in black and white (just torrents).

thats life..

Indeed it is. Plus stealing is only growing. The best that can be done is that people at least start to understand the ramifications of this problem.  

@ Adrian:

The key to a game's budget is the Publisher, not the Developer. They fund the games. So we're not talking about Indie developers here. That is a bit of a vague term to begin with. I wouldn't call us that (Stormregion). We have over a hundred employees. As for the previous Panzers games, they are older and were less expensive to make. But the same is true for any game. Our games get more expensive to make as we strive to keep up with and surpass the technological demands of PC gaming. 

Also, there is no shortage of big name, big budget AAA titles in the PC gaming market. So that won't change. What does change:

Shrinking PC game market (includes stealing) with increasing costs.

vs. 

Growing Console game market (with less stealing) with increasing costs

As for your friends not having problems with copy protection, that may well be true. But they are the ones taking the greatest risks with the highest potential for damage. But like I said, remember this conversation when it does end up happening to them.    

The key to a game's budget is the Publisher, not the Developer. SR_Caveman

of course, but considering how big money we're talking about publishers will think twice before giving AAA-level next-gen console budget to small dev 

[

So we're not talking about Indie developers here. That is a bit of a vague term to begin with. I wouldn't call us that (Stormregion).SR_Caveman

Independent, not indie. I've meant developers who aren't owned by publisher or some sort of investment group. Which  are almost extinct on consoles, while they're majority on Pc

We have over a hundred employees.SR_Caveman

wow...I didn't know you grew so much :) I was writting with assumption you're preety standart sized(ie..less than 50 people) :)

 

Also, there is no shortage of big name, big budget AAA titles in the PC gaming market.SR_Caveman

 but AAA console budget much bigger than AAA PC budget

 

Shrinking PC game market (includes stealing) with increasing costs.SR_Caveman

I don't think it's shrinking, especialy if you count online. It's just now growing as fast as console one

 [QUOTE="SR_Caveman"] 

Growing Console game market (with less stealing) with increasing costsSR_Caveman

console market might be growing faster, but the costs(especialy marketing ones) are also increasing faster than on Pc

 

As for your friends not having problems with copy protection, that may well be true. But they are the ones taking the greatest risks with the highest potential for damage. But like I said, remember this conversation when it does end up happening to them.    

SR_Caveman

considering most warez games have copy protections removed I think I'm the only one that is taking risks here :) 

@ Adrian:

Keep in mind that Stormregion is still (for now at least) making PC games. So we are not the best example to be discussing. But I will say (hopefully without starting a flame war) that we are working with EA on Panzers Cold War. So we do have access to the big boys. (Disclaimer: 10tacle is also the publisher and they are responsible for development decisions).

As for the console market, there is more than just AAA titles. There is room for more than just that. So moving over to consoles is not such an issue for established companies with proven track records (like us if we choose to go there).

As for the shrinking PC game market: the biggest culprit is MMOs. You have about 10 million gamers in North America and Europe who are not regular game purchasers. So it is not just stealing that is a problem. But when you are left with the non-MMO gamers to rely on and more and more of them are stealing, it starts looking pretty bad. 

As for the copy protection issue, what you said is not entirely accurate but we're starting to get into the area where our conversation will prove educational to any aspiring thieves.  

I am not for piracy, but I admit that I pirate games, I also buy games as well. I know that if I stop, I'll just be "losing out" in a way, millions of others will continue. I think for piracy to stop, it'll be a little like smoking, smoking used to be promoted in movies, but after 30-40 years or so smoking has become more frowned upon, I know that it's "uncool" to smoke (I go to highschool) these days. For piracy to end it may take a long time for it to become socially unacceptable, because these days everyone does it, the girls at school who know nothing bout computers still pirate music and movies all the same. It's impossible to stop because of the current technology. In my country (New Zealand) the police and bloody useless so they will never consider piracy theft a priority. I do like to support the gaming industry by buying games, games like crysis I will buy (I bought far cry). But in my current status, there is nothing stopping me from pirating, seeing as the law enforcement here is pathetic, there's basically no consequence. The "download torrent" button is pretty much waiting for me to click it. I sit here, and I see a game torrent, do I click the download button or not? I click it, because well... just, why not?ElectricNZ

Well stealing or not stealing is really a moral decision that each gamer must face on his own.  

didn't vista fix some pirating problems? no p2p stuff will work etc.?darkfox101

well wtf can we do about it??? ideas? starforce is not an idea :P...darkfox101

Good question...

Electric had some good points on that. It needs to be less socially acceptable. And I would add that people need to appreciate the part they play in this.

As for Vista, it does have some stuff for that but it could well end up going the same way as everythin else and get cracked.  

[QUOTE="darkfox101"]didn't vista fix some pirating problems? no p2p stuff will work etc.?ElectricNZ

[QUOTE="ElectricNZ"][QUOTE="darkfox101"]didn't vista fix some pirating problems? no p2p stuff will work etc.?darkfox101

A lot of the non-MMO folks are pretty SP oriented. Take Neverwinter Nights (1 & 2) which is purchased by most for the Official Campaign and that is all. So the SP market is a pretty big chunk to remove.

I don't think there is a technical solution to this problem that can't be circumvented. I think the only real solution is having everyone understand that it is in THEIR best interests to not steal. That supporting Devs and Pubs gives them more money which goes into future projects and makes staying in the PC market more viable.

What especially needs to go is the culture of excuses and justifications as they are only self serving.  

Simple solution: make better games with a protected online multiplayer component that people will actually pay to play. HL2/CS:Source and World of WarCraft are two good examples. Notice that most of the heavily pirated games are single player games that got mediocre reviews, the most recent example being Stalker. I think a lot of people feel ripped off having to pay $50 for a game that lasts just 10-12 hrs and has a weak or nonexistent multiplayer component, so they either don't buy or they just DL it. cmdrmonkey

Agree, said something like this before.....and one more thing, Internet is freedom, free-will, so piracy like this...out there exists tons and tons of people who like to live this way, so i think it will never end until the developers build very good fun games,  with  good multiplayer.  

I wonder why they're not going after torrent or something and just cracking down on that link. They did it to napster etc. why not torrent?kpsting

Actually, the guy who made the torrent program has made a deal with the entertainment industry already. They paid him to not provide links to illegal sites on his site.  

[QUOTE="cmdrmonkey"]Simple solution: make better games with a protected online multiplayer component that people will actually pay to play. HL2/CS:Source and World of WarCraft are two good examples. Notice that most of the heavily pirated games are single player games that got mediocre reviews, the most recent example being Stalker. I think a lot of people feel ripped off having to pay $50 for a game that lasts just 10-12 hrs and has a weak or nonexistent multiplayer component, so they either don't buy or they just DL it. geraldus

Agree, said something like this before.....and one more thing, Internet is freedom, free-will, so piracy like this...out there exists tons and tons of people who like to live this way, so i think it will never end until the developers build very good fun games, with good multiplayer.

Fun games = not a solution. An excuse and justification. No game goes unpirated.

Also, there are a large chunk of SP only gamers who Developers cannot afford to lose on top of losing to stealing.  

[QUOTE="acidBURN1942"]games are just as easily pirated on consoles.....believe mecajunXLVII

This is very possible as I know a lot of people having pirated games on the ps2, xbox.. And soon to come 360.. [QUOTE="cajunXLVII"][QUOTE="acidBURN1942"]games are just as easily pirated on consoles.....believe meEnvig

   OK please any one who claims that consoles has less stealing then PC stfu...  Thats pure BS...

     As some one said earlier there is already legalized piracy as it were with the used games market.. Some people only BUY used games, and the publishers and devs don't see a dime of it.. Infact its becoming massivly popular from numerous places from Best Buy, Blockbuster, Gamestop EB games etc etc..  As it stands this hurts the console industry far more then any evidence piracy moves....

    The main reason why many people go to consoles is because its a arguably larger play group not to mention relativly easier to code int eh sense you do not need to test it with thousands of different configurations...  This is why piracy imo is pure bs and overblown, if companies are so worried about piracy why do they allow used games for sale?  That has way more evidence of actual lost income then any piracy figure could give...

   I also don't understand the point the people are trying to make, who cares what the dev thinks.. In the end they will make their decision regardless of what we think..   And there is nothing to say about it, because NOTHING can be done because there is piracy on both sides of the market....  Just that PC games are more tractable..  And the only solid figure we have is a 3 billion dollar loss in piracy in the US FOR ALL SOURCES of media (including the highest pirated stuff including movies and music..)

  And when I see Stalker moaning and complaining I just say tough luck they should have co-operated with some one like Steam, reducing piracy.. Or do another online check system but instead they opted for minimal protection, what in the hell were they expecting to begin with?

OK please any one who claims that consoles has less stealing then PC stfu... Thats pure BS...

As some one said earlier there is already legalized piracy as it were with the used games market.. Some people only BUY used games, and the publishers and devs don't see a dime of it.. Infact its becoming massivly popular from numerous places from Best Buy, Blockbuster, Gamestop EB games etc etc.. As it stands this hurts the console industry far more then any evidence piracy moves....

The main reason why many people go to consoles is because its a arguably larger play group not to mention relativly easier to code int eh sense you do not need to test it with thousands of different configurations... This is why piracy imo is pure bs and overblown, if companies are so worried about piracy why do they allow used games for sale? That has way more evidence of actual lost income then any piracy figure could give...

I also don't understand the point the people are trying to make, who cares what the dev thinks.. In the end they will make their decision regardless of what we think.. And there is nothing to say about it, because NOTHING can be done because there is piracy on both sides of the market.... Just that PC games are more tractable.. And the only solid figure we have is a 3 billion dollar loss in piracy in the US FOR ALL SOURCES of media (including the highest pirated stuff including movies and music..)

And when I see Stalker moaning and complaining I just say tough luck they should have co-operated with some one like Steam, reducing piracy.. Or do another online check system but instead they opted for minimal protection, what in the hell were they expecting to begin with?

sSubZerOo

Hey no need to talk like that...

If you don't care what Developers and Publishers think, there is no one who will change you mind. If one day, you find yourself in an empty PC gaming industry, you can blame anyone you like for it. You can discount stealing, you can downplay stealing, you can even disregard stealing completely. You can convince yourself of whatever you like and not care one bit about what anyone else thinks.  

 If you want to believe that the makers of STALKER concocted this reason rather than admitting something else (whatever your imagination believes the truth to be), you can go right ahead. 

 You have the power to invent whatever excuses or justifications you want that suit you in this situation. No one has the power to make you believe something that you don't want to believe.

Bottom line: You have to want to believe, in order to believe it.  ;)

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

OK please any one who claims that consoles has less stealing then PC stfu... Thats pure BS...

As some one said earlier there is already legalized piracy as it were with the used games market.. Some people only BUY used games, and the publishers and devs don't see a dime of it.. Infact its becoming massivly popular from numerous places from Best Buy, Blockbuster, Gamestop EB games etc etc.. As it stands this hurts the console industry far more then any evidence piracy moves....

The main reason why many people go to consoles is because its a arguably larger play group not to mention relativly easier to code int eh sense you do not need to test it with thousands of different configurations... This is why piracy imo is pure bs and overblown, if companies are so worried about piracy why do they allow used games for sale? That has way more evidence of actual lost income then any piracy figure could give...

I also don't understand the point the people are trying to make, who cares what the dev thinks.. In the end they will make their decision regardless of what we think.. And there is nothing to say about it, because NOTHING can be done because there is piracy on both sides of the market.... Just that PC games are more tractable.. And the only solid figure we have is a 3 billion dollar loss in piracy in the US FOR ALL SOURCES of media (including the highest pirated stuff including movies and music..)

And when I see Stalker moaning and complaining I just say tough luck they should have co-operated with some one like Steam, reducing piracy.. Or do another online check system but instead they opted for minimal protection, what in the hell were they expecting to begin with?

SR_Caveman

Hey no need to talk like that...

If you don't care what Developers and Publishers think, there is no one who will change you mind. If one day, you find yourself in an empty PC gaming industry, you can blame anyone you like for it. You can discount stealing, you can downplay stealing, you can even disregard stealing completely. You can convince yourself of whatever you like and not care one bit about what anyone else thinks.  

 If you want to believe that the makers of STALKER concocted this reason rather than admitting something else (whatever your imagination believes the truth to be), you can go right ahead. 

 You have the power to invent whatever excuses or justifications you want that suit you in this situation. No one has the power to make you believe something that you don't want to believe.

Bottom line: You have to want to believe, in order to believe it.  ;)

Subzero is right though... I do care about the developpers but they are too damn lazy PERIOD. Look at Microsoft. One of the heads complained that Piracy was the main issue behind Vista's poor sales. WRONG! The reason for poor Vista sales is the fact that their product sucks. Look at PC games in comparison to consoles, they don't really try to make a decent PC game. The Sims series is one of the most successful one within the last 20 years simply because they made the game great. Sales in the Sims are skyrocketing all the time, always dominating! Dev should make PC games like consoles, run DIRECT (Easy done...)

 Pirates will always be there, for consoles and for PC. In China, there are pirated products everywhere, ESPECIALLY CONSOLE GAMES.

 Devs and CEOS are just cry babies. MAKE BETTER GAMES.

Look at RIAA. Before they were complaining about people pirating music and sueing them a few years back. Now we barely hear from them. Did they give up? Yes because it isn't easy to sue people. Corporation try to find the easiest solution, not the best! Artists make a lot of money from endorsements and their album sailes only takes up a small percentage of their income.

So in conclusion, BUY PC GAMES. BUY GREAT PC GAMES. Don't buy garbage because that what all the devs are doing for PC games

Witht the following exception:

Supreme Commander

CnC 3

The Sims 1 and 2 and all the expansions

World of Warcraft (I personally hate it but everyone does)

Half Life 2 and CSS (people are just crazy for playing it)

Other which I didn't mention

   OK please any one who claims that consoles has less stealing then PC stfu...  Thats pure BS...

sSubZerOo

ffs, subzero.  just when i thought you could be sensible you start talking out of your ass again.

torrent tracker numbers as of RIGHT NOW: (again, this is ONLY torrents, and only from one site)

pc games - 10,121

ps2 - 3,445

xbox - 1,097

psp - 2,936

psx - 571

gamecube - 208

dreamcast - 450

do the math.  you always ask for data to backup claims, yet you never, ever provide any data yourself.

@caveman - ty for being another voice of reason.