the developers of stalker may change their mind about making games for pc.

LOL

fighting Piracy is like the war on drugs

people will NEVER stop getting high

people will NEVER stop stealing s**t

it cant be stopped

If all the sweet games move over to consoles guess what I'll be pirating next....

and now to smoke this joint ive been waiting for all day;)

cheers

another quick look at the number of trackers (torrents only - like i've said before, keep in mind there are other methods such as newsgroups (huge), ftp, irc, friend-to-friend, etc.)

37 trackers (there are others, i only checked one site)

number downloaded: 169,284 and climbing

potential losses: $6,771,360

 ---

and to the people who say that the sale of used consoles games is piracy, you are wrong.  the dev/pubs already got paid for their wholesale orders because it went through the proper channels, and used game sales is a recognized, legal, legitimate, and separate segment of the free market which the dev/pubs have permitted.

Subzero is right though... I do care about the developpers but they are too damn lazy PERIOD. Look at Microsoft. One of the heads complained that Piracy was the main issue behind Vista's poor sales. WRONG! The reason for poor Vista sales is the fact that their product sucks. Look at PC games in comparison to consoles, they don't really try to make a decent PC game. The Sims series is one of the most successful one within the last 20 years simply because they made the game great. Sales in the Sims are skyrocketing all the time, always dominating! Dev should make PC games like consoles, run DIRECT (Easy done...)

nytemarex

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

   OK please any one who claims that consoles has less stealing then PC stfu...  Thats pure BS...

sj420

ffs, subzero.  just when i thought you could be sensible you start talking out of your ass again.

torrent tracker numbers as of RIGHT NOW: (again, this is ONLY torrents, and only from one site)

pc games - 10,121

ps2 - 3,445

xbox - 1,097

psp - 2,936

psx - 571

gamecube - 208

dreamcast - 450

do the math.  you always ask for data to backup claims, yet you never, ever provide any data yourself.

@caveman - ty for being another voice of reason.

   USED GAMES DEVS AND PUBLISHERS GET NO I REPEAT NO MONEY FROM USED GAMES INDUSTRY WHICH IS HUGE...  SUre its not stealing but its still NEGATIVLY IMPACTING THE INDUSTRY AS BAD AS PIRACY because the devs and publishers are getting 0 cash.. Now some guy already said this earlier MAYBE YOU SHOULD read up on it.  Or better yet read my post which explains the whole aspect of the USed game industries which not a single cent goes to DEVS, and PUBLISHERs.. Which is why we are talking about this arn't we?

   Guys this is a fruitless argument as some one put earlier on its like the war on drugs it iwll never end but htey can minimalize it.. As far as I see it, its Stalkers fault for not researching the market they are put in..  THIS IS NOT SAYING PIRACY IS good, because I SITLL SEE IT AS STEALING, immoral and against the law..  But for ffs this is like people complaining that their rolex watch was stolen when they LEFT OUT in the middle of the road, and some one would easilly call that person the idiot over the person that steals it because its expected to have crime always come on...  Now why Stalker didn't go the improved route by signing with STEAM or some one else is beyond me..

   USED GAMES DEVS AND PUBLISHERS GET NO I REPEAT NO MONEY FROM USED GAMES INDUSTRY WHICH IS HUGE...  SUre its not stealing but its still NEGATIVLY IMPACTING THE INDUSTRY AS BAD AS PIRACY because the devs and publishers are getting 0 cash.. Now some guy already said this earlier MAYBE YOU SHOULD read up on it.  Or better yet read my post which explains the whole aspect of the USed game industries which not a single cent goes to DEVS, and PUBLISHERs.. Which is why we are talking about this arn't we?

   Guys this is a fruitless argument as some one put earlier on its like the war on drugs it iwll never end but htey can minimalize it.. As far as I see it, its Stalkers fault for not researching the market they are put in..  THIS IS NOT SAYING PIRACY IS good, because I SITLL SEE IT AS STEALING, immoral and against the law..  But for ffs this is like people complaining that their rolex watch was stolen when they LEFT OUT in the middle of the road, and some one would easilly call that person the idiot over the person that steals it because its expected to have crime always come on...  Now why Stalker didn't go the improved route by signing with STEAM or some one else is beyond me..

sSubZerOo

i can't believe i have to quote myself, but...

and to the people who say that the sale of used consoles games is piracy, you are wrong.  the dev/pubs already got paid for their wholesale orders because it went through the proper channels, and used game sales is a recognized, legal, legitimate, and separate segment of the free market which the dev/pubs have permitted.

sj420

i've finally come to the conclusion that you, sir, are a certifiable idiot.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

   USED GAMES DEVS AND PUBLISHERS GET NO I REPEAT NO MONEY FROM USED GAMES INDUSTRY WHICH IS HUGE...  SUre its not stealing but its still NEGATIVLY IMPACTING THE INDUSTRY AS BAD AS PIRACY because the devs and publishers are getting 0 cash.. Now some guy already said this earlier MAYBE YOU SHOULD read up on it.  Or better yet read my post which explains the whole aspect of the USed game industries which not a single cent goes to DEVS, and PUBLISHERs.. Which is why we are talking about this arn't we?

   Guys this is a fruitless argument as some one put earlier on its like the war on drugs it iwll never end but htey can minimalize it.. As far as I see it, its Stalkers fault for not researching the market they are put in..  THIS IS NOT SAYING PIRACY IS good, because I SITLL SEE IT AS STEALING, immoral and against the law..  But for ffs this is like people complaining that their rolex watch was stolen when they LEFT OUT in the middle of the road, and some one would easilly call that person the idiot over the person that steals it because its expected to have crime always come on...  Now why Stalker didn't go the improved route by signing with STEAM or some one else is beyond me..

sj420

i can't believe i have to quote myself, but...

and to the people who say that the sale of used consoles games is piracy, you are wrong.  the dev/pubs already got paid for their wholesale orders because it went through the proper channels, and used game sales is a recognized, legal, legitimate, and separate segment of the free market which the dev/pubs have permitted.

sj420

i've finally come to the conclusion that you, sir, are a certifiable idiot.

   I NEVER SAID IT WAS PIRACY, i said its just as harmful in terms..  Why??  Because the rental gives 0 MONEY to the makers, so instead of 2 brand new buys they get 1 while the other is a used buy that only the STORE gets.. Now sure its legal but that still does't give back the fact that it hurts the game business just as bad..   So I think its pure malarchy that saying that PC games some how lose the most money by certain things such as piracy as well as other aspects.. RENTALs are almost just as bad too, because instead of the person purchasing it they will rent the game for a small amount and beat it returning it for money not given to the game makers..

  Now these devs are crying because they are losing money not because its illegal..    Now I'm sure these companies compensate for some what of the profits to the game companies, but they are still losing money they could have been gaining.. Infact many people such as my self only BUY used games, never brand new..

LOL

fighting Piracy is like the war on drugs

people will NEVER stop getting high

people will NEVER stop stealing s**t

it cant be stopped

If all the sweet games move over to consoles guess what I'll be pirating next....

 

and now to smoke this joint ive been waiting for all day;)

 

cheers

TheSkratch

 You're a cynical idiot, "Just because everyone else steals means I should do so too" and "Just because everyone else smokes means I should do" it's idiotic, don't try to seperate yourself from the pack when you're moronically inserting yourself into an even more mindless system with some idiotic junkish philosophy that only serves to pump out more idiots into the world.

I've just started using a PC for games in the last few weeks myself... (have an XB360, but am tired of the 'gaming' on it for now - letting my kids play with it...)....

 As for the idea that all devs can move over to the wonderful world of consoles, you people are on crack....  Think about this realistically....

 Yes, consoles can be modded (hell, the 360 can have its dvd firmware flashed and it'll play copied discs-:roll:)..  No one is even sure if MS can see this over live either....

What I'm trying to say is if some people are willing to spend hundreds of $$$ a year on updating their PC's (card, memory etc), then what makes you think that when the PC gaming market dries up, they wont spend that above $$$ on MODDING a console?????

 The ONLY reason that the PC gaming pirates are doing it MORE than the console market is that there are more PC's out there, so there's more likely to be 'pirates' downloading PC games.  Take it away, they'll almost all move over to consoles (even if only half move over), then you've got the EXACT same situation, but with consoles now, NOT PC's anymore.

The only option at that point is to ONLY make online games for consoles (as well as PC's)...  Yet, there are currently on 55% of the people in the US having an active internet connection..

Tough call....

 Good luck....

PS: Up here in Canada the Music industry has lobbied and had a tax put on ALL blank CD-R media (which they get a portion of), because they know alot of the CD-R is being used to copy music.  Sucks for us IT people who actually use them to back up real data her at work with (just switched to a DVD burner, so more room and they are actually cheaper...)

"PS: Up here in Canada the Music industry has lobbied and had a tax put on ALL blank CD-R media (which they get a portion of), because they know alot of the CD-R is being used to copy music. Sucks for us IT people who actually use them to back up real data her at work with (just switched to a DVD burner, so more room and they are actually cheaper...)" Good lord that is horrible...who does your goverment work for, the people, or lobbyist?dnuggs40

I'm going to assume that this was a sacrastic comment. Who do all governments work for, it sure isn't the people (just look at the US government right now, what a mess).

No, its not being sarcastic, there is an actual tax that has been levied against ALL CD-R media sold in Canada.

http://neil.eton.ca/copylevy.shtml

 Here you go...

and I quote:

Can I legally copy music CDs for my friends?

The simple answer is NO, but you can legally copy your friend's music CD for YOUR OWN use

It does not matter whether you own the original sound recording (on any medium), you can legally make a copy for your own private use.

Me again...  Now the above is why piracy in Canada is almost as bad as China... Its NOT against the law here to download anything we dont even own...LOL..  Whack a roni to say the least...

Oh well....

(go habs...

People thinking that the PC-gaming industry is dying are just plain dumb. It's a minority of companies that's making a switch to console-only development. They'll return soon enough. There's still a LOT of $$ to be made from PC-gaming. It's fanbase is much larger than the console counterpart..even though it may seem like the console crowd is larger, it really isn't.

Just that console-users buy games MUCH more often than the average PC-user. Mainly, because the PC isn't a gaming-only platform, unlike the console.

I can surf on the internet, chat a bit, write some book in 'Word' - whatever, really - this makes me only play a PC-game once in a while...Whilst, the console crowd can do nothing, but buy new games once they've finished those that they already own. As gaming, is all they can do, it doesn't take long. Unlike, an average PC-user, whom can do a lot of stuff apart from PC-gaming.

So the result is that we don't finish our games as quickly as the console-crowd, nor do we get bored as quickly - because most of us avoids having too much of the game(s). If you play a game too much, you do quite quickly, grow bored.

While, piracy is a big issue..it really isn't the root of the problem. They're just blaming it for being that. They've the right to do so, as they do lose money. But, hey, they should not expect to get "MEGA-ZILLION-WOW-F4NTAST!C-SALES" the first week..

And also, most people forgot about Stalker years ago. I won't even give it a try until I feel finished with a few of the games that I already have. I bet most people think the same way that I do. That's why they should not expect hundreds of thousands of sales the first week..

They should give us more time, really. And after 6 years of waiting..I'm quite critical to even considering buying this game. It'd have been more revolutionary if they'd have finished it earlier..but now as Half-Life 2 and the likes have gotten released, you don't really look at it the same way as before...

Every developer finds something to blame, in most cases, it's piracy. Perhaps they should try to finish their game quicker next time, eh? So they dont lose most of the frikkin fanbase, nor do their salarycosts get too high..Unfortunately, I'm sure that the salarycosts are way higher than this game will ever sell.

And that's also why they are now considering to withdraw to console-development only I think..where the crowd isn't as demanding and will just open their mouth and chew. Since, that's prolly the only thing you can do, with such a lack of quality titles.

"PC-gaming industry is alive 'n kickin!!" - Some dude, at some board, at some site, 2007.

I don't think there is a technical solution to this problem that can't be circumvented. I think the only real solution is having everyone understand that it is in THEIR best interests to not steal.SR_Caveman

Which brings me to my point: arguing about the moral rectitude of piracy is pointless. I can't blame you for being pissed, SR_Caveman, but facts is facts, people is people, and life isn't fair. Content creators should stop punishing their paying customers with copy protection and pursuing pirates with Sisyphean legal tactics, and start figuring out ways of winning over the pirates. Honey catches more flies than vinegar.

[QUOTE="SR_Caveman"]I don't think there is a technical solution to this problem that can't be circumvented. I think the only real solution is having everyone understand that it is in THEIR best interests to not steal.PutU2REM

Which brings me to my point: arguing about the moral rectitude of piracy is pointless. I can't blame you for being pissed, SR_Caveman, but facts is facts, people is people, and life isn't fair. Content creators should stop punishing their paying customers with copy protection and pursuing pirates with Sisyphean legal tactics, and start figuring out ways of winning over the pirates. Honey catches more flies than vinegar.

[QUOTE="TheSkratch"]

LOL

fighting Piracy is like the war on drugs

people will NEVER stop getting high

people will NEVER stop stealing s**t

it cant be stopped

If all the sweet games move over to consoles guess what I'll be pirating next....

and now to smoke this joint ive been waiting for all day;)

cheers

EyeNixon

You're a cynical idiot, "Just because everyone else steals means I should do so too" and "Just because everyone else smokes means I should do" it's idiotic, don't try to seperate yourself from the pack when you're moronically inserting yourself into an even more mindless system with some idiotic junkish philosophy that only serves to pump out more idiots into the world.

[QUOTE="cajunXLVII"][QUOTE="acidBURN1942"]games are just as easily pirated on consoles.....believe meMiguel16

Uh, cajun's response was called sarcasm.

[QUOTE="Wild_Card"] i dont pirate at all. but yea i agree the price of keeping up to date rigs is stupid. not so bad for people who live in large citys that can make lots of cash. 2k might not seem like so much but in smaller towns ect were the pay scale is alot lower high priced items are haredr to get. 1Lonehawk

Dont pirate games, suport the industry that makes games FOR YOUR ENJOYMENT.
if the developers get more money, we get better games. Samulies

Singleplayer + NO or Weak multiplayer = Pirate

Singleplayer + great multiplayer = Lots of sales

Great multiplayer = Lots of sales

It's really that easy _Pedro_

[QUOTE="1Lonehawk"][QUOTE="Wild_Card"] i dont pirate at all. but yea i agree the price of keeping up to date rigs is stupid. not so bad for people who live in large citys that can make lots of cash. 2k might not seem like so much but in smaller towns ect were the pay scale is alot lower high priced items are haredr to get. Wild_Card

Dont pirate games, suport the industry that makes games FOR YOUR ENJOYMENT.
if the developers get more money, we get better games. Samulies

Singleplayer + NO or Weak multiplayer = Pirate

Singleplayer + great multiplayer = Lots of sales

Great multiplayer = Lots of sales

It's really that easy _Pedro_

[QUOTE="Wild_Card"][QUOTE="1Lonehawk"][QUOTE="Wild_Card"] i dont pirate at all. but yea i agree the price of keeping up to date rigs is stupid. not so bad for people who live in large citys that can make lots of cash. 2k might not seem like so much but in smaller towns ect were the pay scale is alot lower high priced items are haredr to get. Guggu

Dont pirate games, suport the industry that makes games FOR YOUR ENJOYMENT.
if the developers get more money, we get better games. Samulies

Singleplayer + NO or Weak multiplayer = Pirate

Singleplayer + great multiplayer = Lots of sales

Great multiplayer = Lots of sales

It's really that easy _Pedro_

I really hate to say it ... but I think this is where Microsoft could really come in to play. If M$ is really serious about the PC being a major gaming platform then they should make efforts to help educate the industry that threat of piracy is a serious one. Maybe this is how they can get Live Anywhere to take off.

Even if PC gaming suffers the pirates will just turn their focus to cracking the consoles. Hackers love a challenge.
Oni

Subzero is right though...

nytemarex

This is not about right or wrong or "I win" vs. "You win". This is only about what he believes, you believe, I believe and anyone else here believes.

I believe stealing is wrong, others here believe it is right.  

Well... i have a reason for the devs to keep making pc games...i have a ligitimate purchased copt sitting in my car right now waiting for me to get home and play :) Hopefully the people who are wiiling to pay can support all the free loaders. dnuggs40

That makes you instrumental in all this. As someone else here said, stealing has to become "uncool". It has to be "uncool" to screw over the people making games.

Its very ironic that so many thieves talk about how bad some games are. But they keep money out of the pockets of Developers and Publishers that would help to make better games.  

@ sj420: You're welcome. The PC gaming world needs more gamers like you.

@ Subzero: Used games bring legitimate gamers into the gaming world. They bring in people who are willing to pay cash for games. Stealing only brings losers and lowlifes who will never contribute or support anything. Just leech off of society.  

I've just started using a PC for games in the last few weeks myself... (have an XB360, but am tired of the 'gaming' on it for now - letting my kids play with it...)....

As for the idea that all devs can move over to the wonderful world of consoles, you people are on crack.... Think about this realistically....

Yes, consoles can be modded (hell, the 360 can have its dvd firmware flashed and it'll play copied discs-:roll:).. No one is even sure if MS can see this over live either....

What I'm trying to say is if some people are willing to spend hundreds of $$$ a year on updating their PC's (card, memory etc), then what makes you think that when the PC gaming market dries up, they wont spend that above $$$ on MODDING a console?????

The ONLY reason that the PC gaming pirates are doing it MORE than the console market is that there are more PC's out there, so there's more likely to be 'pirates' downloading PC games. Take it away, they'll almost all move over to consoles (even if only half move over), then you've got the EXACT same situation, but with consoles now, NOT PC's anymore.

The only option at that point is to ONLY make online games for consoles (as well as PC's)... Yet, there are currently on 55% of the people in the US having an active internet connection..

Tough call....

Good luck....

PS: Up here in Canada the Music industry has lobbied and had a tax put on ALL blank CD-R media (which they get a portion of), because they know alot of the CD-R is being used to copy music. Sucks for us IT people who actually use them to back up real data her at work with (just switched to a DVD burner, so more room and they are actually cheaper...)

XMantixxX

No crack involved here. ;)

If you make a console game, you can sell more copies. That is more money to reinvest in future projects.

There are more consoles games being sold and there are more casual gamers with consoles. Casual gamrs with consoles are not your typical thieves... 

People thinking that the PC-gaming industry is dying are just plain dumb. It's a minority of companies that's making a switch to console-only development. They'll return soon enough. There's still a LOT of $$ to be made from PC-gaming. It's fanbase is much larger than the console counterpart..even though it may seem like the console crowd is larger, it really isn't.

Guggu

I'm not going to call the PC gaming market dead just yet. But your confidence in the PC market is quite scary. The PC market is not growing, it is shrinking. And the console market is expanding.  

[QUOTE="SR_Caveman"]I don't think there is a technical solution to this problem that can't be circumvented. I think the only real solution is having everyone understand that it is in THEIR best interests to not steal.PutU2REM

Which brings me to my point: arguing about the moral rectitude of piracy is pointless. I can't blame you for being pissed, SR_Caveman, but facts is facts, people is people, and life isn't fair. Content creators should stop punishing their paying customers with copy protection and pursuing pirates with Sisyphean legal tactics, and start figuring out ways of winning over the pirates. Honey catches more flies than vinegar.

I'm actually not that pissed. I am more "putting myself in the shoes of the STALKERS people". As I work for a Developer too, I can really understand how I would feel if I saw: 140,000 illegal downloads of my game. Developers do start visiting the illegal sites as soon as their game comes out to see what is up. So I know they saw that. They probably widened the band beyond just torrents so the figure is much larger than that. 

I don't know if any of you (with some obvious exceptions) could imagine making something and seeing millions upon millions of dollars of sales evaporate before your very eyes. It does really amaze me that you all can see a figure above 5 million dollars and not bat an eyelid over it. Not see that that kind of money puts a big hole in the development budget of their next game.

Take that 5 million dollars and ask yourself this:

How much shorter will the development cycle for their next game have to be?

How many game features will have to be cut to fit within the shortened development cycle?

How much less time will there be for QA for thier game?

Now I know that this is more than 5 million dollars in sales so it doesn't equal profit. However, it is not just 140,000 units either as it goes beyond just torrents. 

As for best interests, it is not in their best interests to steal. They only believe it is in their best interests. 

[QUOTE="PutU2REM"]

[QUOTE="SR_Caveman"]I don't think there is a technical solution to this problem that can't be circumvented. I think the only real solution is having everyone understand that it is in THEIR best interests to not steal.SR_Caveman

Which brings me to my point: arguing about the moral rectitude of piracy is pointless. I can't blame you for being pissed, SR_Caveman, but facts is facts, people is people, and life isn't fair. Content creators should stop punishing their paying customers with copy protection and pursuing pirates with Sisyphean legal tactics, and start figuring out ways of winning over the pirates. Honey catches more flies than vinegar.

I'm actually not that pissed. I am more "putting myself in the shoes of the STALKERS people". As I work for a Developer too, I can really understand how I would feel if I saw: 140,000 illegal downloads of my game. Developers do start visiting the illegal sites as soon as their game comes out to see what is up. So I know they saw that. They probably widened the band beyond just torrents so the figure is much larger than that.

I don't know if any of you (with some obvious exceptions) could imagine making something and seeing millions upon millions of dollars of sales evaporate before your very eyes. It does really amaze me that you all can see a figure above 5 million dollars and not bat an eyelid over it. Not see that that kind of money puts a big hole in the development budget of their next game.

Take that 5 million dollars and ask yourself this:

How much shorter will the development cycle for their next game have to be?

How many game features will have to be cut to fit within the shortened development cycle?

How much less time will there be for QA for thier game?

Now I know that this is more than 5 million dollars in sales so it doesn't equal profit. However, it is not just 140,000 units either as it goes beyond just torrents.

As for best interests, it is not in their best interests to steal. They only believe it is in their best interests.

That was a good post, makes me think about what I do but, you really can't stop piracy :(ElectricNZ

Thanks. It is a hard (almost impossible) battle to win. But what may change this is if more Developers and Publishers get fed up and leave. The legitimate users will get more angry and even some of the people who steal games will wake up and see what is happening.  

I think this will make more people adapt the "stealing is uncool" attitude. Let's just hope that the industry is not just a handful of small developers by then. ;)

Most pirates know it is bad for the gaming industry, although it's probably really good for the hardware industry, I mean the only thing stopping me from playing all the games in the world 4 months ago was my crappy p4 3ghz + fx5700. I think hardware manufacturers love piracy. It will be very difficult to change the stance so that 'stealing is uncool' because ever lan party I attend the amount of piracy is overwhelming. I also run my own lan party and to get a decent number of attendees you have to run a dc hub, a lot of people sometimes dont have the certain game for the lan tournament so they just leech it, we actually need to provide people with these so that we can the numbers of people... Lan party organizers = worse than game devs, we work hard and we get no profit at all :(ElectricNZ

I hear what you are sayig but you realize that that has to change...

As for hardware manufacturers loving piracy, I'm not so sure. There are plenty of places in the world where their hardware "falls off the back of trucks"... The only advantage that they do enjoy is a lack of electronic distribution. Plus less games being made for PCs means less sales for them... ;)

[QUOTE="nytemarex"]

Subzero is right though...

SR_Caveman

This is not about right or wrong or "I win" vs. "You win". This is only about what he believes, you believe, I believe and anyone else here believes.

I believe stealing is wrong, others here believe it is right.  

  Your missing my entire point, take a realist approach buddy.. I said Piracy is wrong, I my self have never done it and plan on never doing it.. But in the end this is like a guy complaining that he left his $5000 rolex out side on purpose and cries that he got it stolen..  Most would say well why did you leave it there to begin with?  Same can be said for Stalker, its a capitalistic ecnomy in the US and regardless if illegal actions are hurting them the government can only do so much due to the freedoms all US citizens have.. 

   Now my entire point is buddy is there has to be more reasons then just piracy.. Because as it stands the Used gaming industry + Piracy (though its not as large) for console games can easilly increase or surpass revenue lost from just PC only piracy..   Top that buddy we all know stealing is wrong, so do the companies.. But they could honestly care if its wrong, they care the fact of the matter they are LOSING MONEY to it..   If these companies were some how gaining money from piracy they wouldn't have said a peep.. Thats why I wish to see actual independent evidence by POSSIBLE FIGURES LOST by a research group,  not some lame ass company who looks at the downloads and just assumes thats all their products they lost because thats complete and utter BS..   If you used that logic the USED and rental gaming industries would be KILLING the console industry as we know it in profit loss when comparing it to piracy for the PC.

   Now Stalker could have avoided this with doing something such as signing up to Steam or making their own online system for automatic checks, but thus they chose the cheaper path and they payed for it by not adapting to a different market.. We arn't argueing by ethics here people, we are talking about the fact that piracy will always happened, it should be a given its wrong..    But I find this to be just as much the blame of the publisher them selves for not actually researching this discovering that piracy could hurt their profits POSSIBLY..  This is like the music industry crying about piracy on how they got their asses whooped profits wise due to piracy because they wanted to be cheap by not spending money on copywrite protection and didn't research anything about piracy what so ever..   Because in the end pirates will never stop downloading, I think its childish to think other wise..  Regardless if its right or wrong.

@SR_Caveman

by pc standarts you are huge company though, so you might not have 

problems moving, smaller ones will.

sub30 persons company will have horrible problems with

securing decent contract on consoles.

Simply put a lot of good Pc devs won't be able to move to consoles ,

they could have couple years agobut not this gen. 

As for the shrinking PC game market: MMOs aren't

even 60% of online revenues.

Plus even retail in US has grown last year. So it's definitly not shrinking,

even if you would prefer(as would I ) to see it grow faster, it's definitly

not shrinkibng 

@ Subzero:

Well I certainly prefer "buddy" to "stfu". ;)

As for your points, I'm not so much "missing your points" as "ignoring your points". And I actually don't mean that in a bad or malicious way at all. I think the points you are making suck the discussion down into the same place it always goes. This is not about "right" or "wring" or what "should of/could of" been done or anything else. This really is just about what people believe. For me it is not hard to picture myself in the shoes of the STALKER guys and be incredibly pissed off about seeing well over 5 million dollars of sales disappear down the tubes. For you, it is different.

@SR_Caveman

by pc standarts you are huge company though, so you might not have

problems moving, smaller ones will.

sub30 persons company will have horrible problems with

securing decent contract on consoles.

Simply put a lot of good Pc devs won't be able to move to consoles ,

they could have couple years agobut not this gen.

As for the shrinking PC game market: MMOs aren't

even 60% of online revenues.

Plus even retail in US has grown last year. So it's definitly not shrinking,

even if you would prefer(as would I ) to see it grow faster, it's definitly

not shrinkibng

AdrianWerner

I'm not so sure that we are that "big". The demands of PC gaming in terms of performance, graphics, physics and more are pretty high right now. They require a hefty amount of people to make. Lots of technology investment and salaries to pay.

By the way, where are you getting these figures from (link)?

This puts the MMO figure at $1 Billion last year: 

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6167847.html?tag=latestnews;title;1  

Oh..yes, you are big :) Look at other strategy developers. With 100 persons

you are one of biggest devs :) I mean... look at TiltedMill, they have less than 30 people

and they work on two projects. I definitly think you are in the in the big league right now :)

Even Big Huge Games is smaller than you guys :) 

So the question is: when will you start making pure gold toilets in your offices to

celebrate that fact? ;) 

and more serious question: can you reveal how big Panzers cold war team is? 

I'm a weirdo, but I was always fastinated with the creation 

part of videogames (Gamastura for life! :) )

Anyway about that numbers:MS had a press conference in late 2004(so obviously the landscape 

has grown like hell because of WoW and Steam) where they said online pcgaming is worth 2billion$/

year(this included both MMOs, as well as downloadable games ,casual titles included).

Downloadable games are the future of pcgaming, you guys should really go Steam or

create your own equivalent of it

This really is just about what people believe. For me it is not hard to picture myself in the shoes of the STALKER guys and be incredibly pissed off about seeing well over 5 million dollars of sales disappear down the tubes. For you, it is different.

 

SR_Caveman

well, I doubt even 5% of warez people would actualy buy the game if it wasn't avaible on warez.

Still even 2% of 5mln$ could always be nice :) 

But honestly piracy will always exist and always be huge. trying to convert people with morality

won't do much, no matter how right you are. It's better to just concentrate on making

people who are decent enough to buy legitimate copies buy more of them instead

of loosing sleep over something that you simply can't control 

@SR_Caveman

Oh..yes, you are big :) Look at other strategy developers. With 100 persons

you are one of biggest devs :) I mean... look at TiltedMill, they have less than 30 people

and they work on two projects. I definitly think you are in the in the big league right now :)

Even Big Huge Games is smaller than you guys :)

So the question is: when will you start making pure gold toilets in your offices to

celebrate that fact? ;)

and more serious question: can you reveal how big Panzers cold war team is?

I'm a weirdo, but I was always fastinated with the creation

part of videogames (Gamastura for life! :) )

Anyway about that numbers:MS had a press conference in late 2004(so obviously the landscape

has grown like hell because of WoW and Steam) where they said online pcgaming is worth 2billion$/

year(this included both MMOs, as well as downloadable games ,casual titles included).

Downloadable games are the future of pcgaming, you guys should really go Steam or

create your own equivalent of it

AdrianWerner

2004 is really too old to be looking at in an industry like this which moves so quickly. THe MMO landscape has changed dramatically since then.

As for company size, maybe we are bigger but if any of those companies have successes, they can ramp up their employee count to meet console demands. But that is assuming that there really is a huge difference in the needs of a console developer. A console game can require the same amount and quality of art assets. For programming, you are building an engine for a single system that has all the same necessary parts as a PC game does. 

Starting with the first Panzers title, we were able to grow significantly to make games. So it is entirely possible for smaller Devs to build themselves up to a bigger company.

As for who is working on Cold War. RFTB is mostly wrapped up and near to release. So most of the company is working on Cold War right now.  

[QUOTE="SR_Caveman"]This really is just about what people believe. For me it is not hard to picture myself in the shoes of the STALKER guys and be incredibly pissed off about seeing well over 5 million dollars of sales disappear down the tubes. For you, it is different.

 

AdrianWerner

well, I doubt even 5% of warez people would actualy buy the game if it wasn't avaible on warez.

Still even 2% of 5mln$ could always be nice :)

But honestly piracy will always exist and always be huge. trying to convert people with morality

won't do much, no matter how right you are. It's better to just concentrate on making

people who are decent enough to buy legitimate copies buy more of them instead

of loosing sleep over something that you simply can't control

I don't think morality really works either. I think what does work is that people who steal start to see the negative effects of their stealing. I don't think anything will change their mind until they start to lose something. And I think it starts here with the STALKER guys. They lost a Developer. I can still see the denial about this but sooner or later as more go, they start losing enough to wake up. Some can stay in denial forever. But hopefully most won't. Hopefully the attitude overall will switch to "it's uncool" to screw over developers as you are ruining the industry.  

@SR_Caveman

I don't think GSC actualy said anything about that,

 it's just thread's creator who has mistaken GSC with ID and Epic

(altough even there they're going multi, not abaddoning PC)

and unfortunately loosing devs won't change anything.

Commodore64 died because of that and it didn't change

people's perception even a bit. if they won't have games to pirate

on Pc they will just buy console and pirate there.  

@SR_Caveman

 

I don't think GSC actualy said anything about that,

it's just thread's creator who has mistaken GSC with ID and Epic

(altough even there they're going multi, not abaddoning PC)

 

and unfortunately loosing devs won't change anything.

Commodore64 died because of that and it didn't change

people's perception even a bit. if they won't have games to pirate

on Pc they will just buy console and pirate there.

AdrianWerner

You may be right, I wouldn't guarantee success in any attempt to reverse the stealing trend. But I think this is what it has boiled down to as the main option left. If people don't believe the effects of stealing on the industry and how it does in fact affect them then we're all in trouble. 

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

@SR_Caveman

 

I don't think GSC actualy said anything about that,

it's just thread's creator who has mistaken GSC with ID and Epic

(altough even there they're going multi, not abaddoning PC)

 

and unfortunately loosing devs won't change anything.

Commodore64 died because of that and it didn't change

people's perception even a bit. if they won't have games to pirate

on Pc they will just buy console and pirate there.

SR_Caveman

You may be right, I wouldn't guarantee success in any attempt to reverse the stealing trend. But I think this is what it has boiled down to as the main option left. If people don't believe the effects of stealing on the industry and how it does in fact affect them then we're all in trouble. 

I don't think they don't believe and know the effect, they just don't give a damn 

 

I don't think they don't believe and know the effect, they just don't give a damn

AdrianWerner

I don't think they believe and I don't think they care. At least for now that is.

By the way, those quoted comments were made by Epic and iD people. But you are right that it is going multi rather than abandoning the PC market.  

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

 

I don't think they don't believe and know the effect, they just don't give a damn

SR_Caveman

I don't think they believe and I don't think they care. At least for now that is.

By the way, those quoted comments were made by Epic and iD people. But you are right that it is going multi rather than abandoning the PC market.  

  WHy are you even bothering argueing then when your ignoring every point thats being made?  Your not gonna sway any buddy because your beating the lamb with every one accepts, honestly I am gonna be frank about this but your basically crying..  Your crying over somethign that happened, not giving any solutions while downplaying or "ignoring" peoples points if they have the slightest difference of opinion from you on the issue if its really the large etc etc...  So what if your CRYING that they lost money, what can be done to improve it because regardless what you think there will still be pirates.. WELCOME TO THE REAL world.

  Seriouslly why not complain about crime then such as murder? Start complaining more about it on how you outraged with out giving any real solution to it while ignoring every one who says its basically impossiuble to stop murder completely with out sacrificing all of our freedoms.   Honestly it sure sounds like you want some kind of fairness in life when there was never any to begin with..

  Who cares people get angry all the time for crime, don't make it sound like these guys are some how "new" and something like this has never happened.. No infact Stalker got delayed more then ever giving them as much time as possible basically to choose a good copywrite system or maybe even sign on to Steam.. And in the end THEY took the risk and lost, welcome to life.  Who cares if they are mad that these pirates broke the law, crying won't give them back the money they needed and the only way will to innovate a better DRM system..    I am not saying its entirely THEIR fault but they should have seen this possibility come a million miles away.