this is for you all you vista haters, im calling you out!

[QUOTE="Nitrous2O"]

The DRM - I certainly don't like it either, but it is progress, it's the future, we might as well get used to it.savvon

This mentality just baffles me.

NO! It is not the future of gaming. Unless you are a sheep and want to roll over until the corps sqeeze every single dime out of us they can.

You need to wake up and smell the cheese!

Ok then :D Good luck with your crusade! You have my support (seriously) but, sorry, it ain't gonna happen dude.

Reading some of these posts, I must be the only person (sarcasm) in the world with no problems with Vista. No performance issues, runs every app and game I've wanted to so far, Vista Ultimate x64 ftw!!!! But only on my computer :P

I'm sure some people have had problems with Vista, but alot of you are making up stories....c'mon

[QUOTE="savvon"][QUOTE="Nitrous2O"]

The DRM - I certainly don't like it either, but it is progress, it's the future, we might as well get used to it.Nitrous2O

This mentality just baffles me.

NO! It is not the future of gaming. Unless you are a sheep and want to roll over until the corps sqeeze every single dime out of us they can.

You need to wake up and smell the cheese!

Ok then :D Good luck with your crusade! You have my support (seriously) but, sorry, it ain't gonna happen dude.

Reading some of these posts, I must be the only person (sarcasm) in the world with no problems with Vista. No performance issues, runs every app and game I've wanted to so far, Vista Ultimate x64 ftw!!!! But only on my computer :P

I'm sure some people have had problems with Vista, but alot of you are making up stories....c'mon

You are not the only one not having problems.I don't know what DRM they are are referring to.

allright all you vista haters explain once and for all why you hate vista, think of the improvements Microsoft has made for vista,take that in mind when you write on this board. I challenge you!jbox1992

this guy is either 1) living in outer space, or 2) is not a true gamer with a good crosssection of games in his collection.

Give it a year max and i bet 90% of vista haters will have vista.

:)

gamerchris810

Lol that's true.......1 service pack and everyone will be loving it......It'll look good, run great and DX10 baby!!!!!!!!

[QUOTE="jbox1992"]allright all you vista haters explain once and for all why you hate vista, think of the improvements Microsoft has made for vista,take that in mind when you write on this board. I challenge you!ElvisNixon

this guy is either 1) living in outer space, or 2) is not a true gamer with a good crosssection of games in his collection.

I was just thinking the same thing.

[QUOTE="jbox1992"]allright all you vista haters explain once and for all why you hate vista, think of the improvements Microsoft has made for vista,take that in mind when you write on this board. I challenge you!ElvisNixon

this guy is either 1) living in outer space, or 2) is not a true gamer with a good crosssection of games in his collection.

or he could have Windows Vista which runs perfectly fine on his PC and gives him absolutely no problems.....but he wants to know why everyone seems to hate it........

[QUOTE="ElvisNixon"]

[QUOTE="jbox1992"]allright all you vista haters explain once and for all why you hate vista, think of the improvements Microsoft has made for vista,take that in mind when you write on this board. I challenge you!42316

this guy is either 1) living in outer space, or 2) is not a true gamer with a good crosssection of games in his collection.

or he could have Windows Vista which runs perfectly fine on his PC and gives him absolutely no problems.....but he wants to know why everyone seems to hate it........

Perhaps he hasn't used xp recently because everyone who has used both OS's in a recent amount of time knows that xp provides much better performance on games than vista does. THis is especially true if you're an Nvidia user.

Oh and as far as DRM in Vista, it's heavily integrated within the OS, but not really by MS's choosing, it was more about the pressure from the RIAA and MPAA. It mostly has to do with Vista only allowing HDCP hardware to show content that is protected, meaing you will need an HDCP video card and monitor if you wish to watch HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, which means a lot of people are going to have to uprgrade their machines if they want just simple DVD playback. The best way to avoid this is to completely boycott all DRM infested content. For articles on this issue, just do a google search, it's all over the net.

Here's an older article that explains the issue:

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/hdcp-vista.ars

:lol: I just want DirectX 10, to heck with all the other crap! That's why Im just getting Home Basic, All I need it for a Games [Dx10] WInamp & IE ! :D

Problem Solved and hopefuly by Q1 08 a SP should be out to "Fix" all the Problems!!

Oh and as far as DRM in Vista, it's heavily integrated within the OS, but not really by MS's choosing, it was more about the pressure from the RIAA and MPAA. It mostly has to do with Vista only allowing HDCP hardware to show content that is protected, meaing you will need an HDCP video card and monitor if you wish to watch HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, which means a lot of people are going to have to uprgrade their machines if they want just simple DVD playback. The best way to avoid this is to completely boycott all DRM infested content. For articles on this issue, just do a google search, it's all over the net.

Here's an older article that explains the issue:

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/hdcp-vista.ars

mismajor99

It's for HDDVD and Blu Ray playback over HDMI/DVI not DVD playback. Just don't buy Blu Ray or HD DVD movies.The way it was posted didn't make any sense since they were not referring to HDCP. It's a good thing I am not interested in either format or use the PC for movie playback.

[QUOTE="mismajor99"]

Oh and as far as DRM in Vista, it's heavily integrated within the OS, but not really by MS's choosing, it was more about the pressure from the RIAA and MPAA. It mostly has to do with Vista only allowing HDCP hardware to show content that is protected, meaing you will need an HDCP video card and monitor if you wish to watch HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, which means a lot of people are going to have to uprgrade their machines if they want just simple DVD playback. The best way to avoid this is to completely boycott all DRM infested content. For articles on this issue, just do a google search, it's all over the net.

Here's an older article that explains the issue:

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/hdcp-vista.ars

Deihmos

It's for HDDVD and Blu Ray playback over HDMI/DVI not DVD playback. Just don't buy Blu Ray or HD DVD movies.The way it was posted didn't make any sense since they were not referring to HDCP. It's a good thing I am not interested in either format or use the PC for movie playback.

That is a terrible restriction by Microsoft, no excuses.

Forbes has an interesting article on it at:

http://www.forbes.com/security/2007/02/10/microsoft-vista-drm-tech-security-cz_bs_0212vista.html

"Why Vista's DRM Is Bad For You
Bruce Schneier 02.12.07, 6:00 AM ET

Windows Vista includes an array of "features" that you don't want. These features will make your computer less reliable and less secure. They'll make your computer less stable and run slower. They will cause technical support problems. They may even require you to upgrade some of your peripheral hardware and existing software. And these features won't do anything useful. In fact, they're working against you. They're digital rights management (DRM) features built into Vista at the behest of the entertainment industry.

And you don't get to refuse them.

The details are pretty geeky, but basically Microsoft (nasdaq: MSFT - news - people ) has reworked a lot of the core operating system to add copy protection technology for new media formats like HD-DVD and Blu-ray disks. Certain high-quality output paths--audio and video--are reserved for protected peripheral devices. Sometimes output quality is artificially degraded; sometimes output is prevented entirely. And Vista continuously spends CPU time monitoring itself, trying to figure out if you're doing something that it thinks you shouldn't. If it does, it limits functionality and in extreme cases restarts just the video subsystem. We still don't know the exact details of all this, and how far-reaching it is, but it doesn'tlook good.

Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice, that it's Hollywood that is demanding DRM in Windows in order to allow "premium content"--meaning, new movies that are still earning revenue--onto your computer. If Microsoft didn't play along, it'd be relegated to second-****status as Hollywood pulled its support for the platform.

It's all complete nonsense. Microsoft could have easily told the entertainment industry that it was not going to deliberately cripple its operating system, take it or leave it. With 95% of the operating system market, where else would Hollywood go? Sure, Big Media has been pushing DRM, but recently some--Sony (nyse: SNE - news - people ) after their 2005 debacle and now EMI Group--are having second thoughts.

What the entertainment companies are finally realizing is that DRM just annoys their customers. Like every other DRM system
ever invented, Microsoft's won't keep the professional pirates from making copies of whatever they want. The DRM security in Vista was broken the day it was released. Sure, Microsoft will patch it, but the patched system will get broken as well. It's an arms race, and the defenders can't possibly win.

I believe that Microsoft knows this and also knows that it doesn't matter. This isn't about stopping pirates and the small percentage of people who download free movies from the Internet. This isn't even about Microsoft satisfying its Hollywood customers at the expense of those of us paying for the privilege of using Vista. This is about the overwhelming majority of honest users and who owns the distribution channels to them. And while it may have started as a partnership, in the end Microsoft is going to end up locking the movie companies into selling content in its proprietary formats.

We saw this trick before; Apple (nasdaq: AAPL - news - people ) pulled it on the recording industry. First iTunes worked in partnership with the major record labels to distribute content, but soon Warner Music's CEO Edgar Bronfman Jr. found that he wasn't able to dictate a pricing model to Steve Jobs. The same thing will happen here; after Vista is firmly entrenched in the marketplace, Sony's Howard Stringer won't be able to dictate pricing or terms to Bill Gates. This is a war for 21st-century movie distribution and, when the dust settles, Hollywood won't know what hit them.

To be fair, just last week Steve Jobs publicly came out against DRM for music. It's a reasonable business position, now that Apple controls the online music distribution market. But Jobs never mentioned movies, and he is the largest single shareholder in Disney. Talk is cheap. The real question is would he actually allow iTunes Music Store purchases to play on Microsoft or Sony players, or is this just a clever way of deflecting blame to the--already hated--music labels.

Microsoft is reaching for a much bigger prize than Apple: not just Hollywood, but also peripheral hardware vendors. Vista's DRM will require driver developers to comply with all kinds of rules and be certified; otherwise, they won't work. And Microsoft talks about expanding this to independent software vendors as well. It's another war for control of the computer market.

Unfortunately, we users are caught in the crossfire. We are not only stuck with DRM systems that interfere with our legitimate fair-use rights for the content we buy, we're stuck with DRM systems that interfere with all of our computer use--even the uses that have nothing to do with copyright.

I don't see the market righting this wrong, because Microsoft's monopoly position gives it much more power than we consumers can hope to have. It might not be as obvious as Microsoft using its operating system monopoly to kill Netscape and own the browser market, but it's really no different. Microsoft's entertainment market grab might further entrench its monopoly position, but it will cause serious damage to both the computer and entertainment industries. DRM is bad, both for consumers and for the entertainment industry: something the entertainment industry is just starting to realize, but Microsoft is still fighting. Some researchers think that this is the final straw that will drive Windows to the competition, but I think the courts are necessary.

In the meantime, the only advice I can offer you is to not upgrade to Vista. It will be hard. Microsoft's bundling deals with computer manufacturers mean that it will be increasingly hard not to get the new operating system with new computers. And Microsoft has some pretty deep pockets and can wait us all out if it wants to. Yes, some people will shift to Macintosh and some fewer number to Linux, but most of us are stuck on Windows. Still, if enough customers say no to Vista, the company might actually listen."

Why not boycott every single blu ray player,hd dvd player,Nvidia cards, HDTV w/ HDMI and the Playstation 3 since they all support DRM.Deihmos

Yes, but not purchasing an OS is a big step, especially one that interferes with hardware. By themselves they are fine. Example, that's not the case if I use a Mac or Linux distro. An HDTV or Nvidia card just bypasses it.

It's really the HD-DVD and Blu-ray player that becomes restrictive once you put it together with Vista where it becomes the problem. You see?

It's still a restrictive feature that is absent in other OS's. Also, who the heck is using component cables on their PC? It's mostly DVI and Analog connections, that is the issue. Standard HD and Blu ray playback in your home theatre, seperate from the PC, is a whole different story. The sad part is, DRM does nothing to prevent the pirating of movies, not to mention, movies are ripped in standard DVD anyway since the file size is much smaller.

Don't hate it, have stated that it was not ready for release and still has a ways to go before it is ready. Both driver and software support are in the toilet. It isn't an issue of hate it is a factual statement based on being part of the beta and feedback programs for Microsoft that Vista should not be used as yet.

Alright, so the discussion comes up to this:

- driver support is horrible and that's no other's problem but nVidia's. There's a margin accepted for doing something from the beginning and there's laziness. And as far other drivers are concerned, when the time needed for a driver to be created and launched exceeds two quarters then there surely isn't anything more to say than the company is uninterested or the financial directors are not willing to waste the money needed to get things done.

And that's what all comes about in the early 2000's. Money. And this is what the world will be remembered for in the 24th and 25th centuries: a civilization based upon "What do I get if I do this?" conception. There's no interest in evolving, but only the interest in earning. And that's how individuals are and that's even more so how companies behave.

Now, the big thing I want to tell everyone included in these two categories

- the one that states that Vista is alright;

- and the other category that says XP is running just fine, is that this conception (that XP is good and you don't have to have Vista) appeared from the fact that XP doesn't crash. The point of moving away from 98 was the Blue Screen. ME didn't solve that, it actually got it worse. Then came 2000 and later XP, and why stick with 2000 when you could have the same thing with a fancier look?

And this look is what makes things fun and no one can argue against. Of course it would prove practical having an OS that points out the most of the information you want and less the graphical brizz-brizzes, but in the long run won't make you feel good. It's psychology and that's something that in the modern world is left behind. It just feels good having something that looks good around you. It happens when you decorate a house, it also happens in the OS you use. Of course, having the posibility of tuning that yourself proves beneficial, and for that I'm sure there are applications capable of changing Vista's appearance as well as the known turning all the graphical accelerated system off.

From the crashes point of view there's no need to go further. XP doesn't crash, by this year every application works with it and those that don't, have already an equivalent built for XP or are forgotten since there isn't any use for them. If this is all that interests the world now, then we should just stop evolving. But even if the fast paced world makes us want to hold and stay for a while, the drive of wanting innovation and innovating won't go sleeping.

Continued...