Democrats Starting to Crack on the Wall

You know this shutdown lasted longer than the one under Obama, right? For a party that "let's people suffer to achieve their objectives" they capitulated in 16 days. If Dems wanted to "play just as heartless as Republicans" they would've folded by now. They are being more heartless, by that standard.

Isn't Mitch McConnel the one stopping it to even reach Trump now?

Yep. Despicable party.

How is a wall going to be an improvement over the chain link fences they already use?

No they're not, because the Republicans are doing this for nothing more than the cult of Trump. Don't kid yourself that this has anything to do with political principles or the greater concern of the nation when Trump is holding his ground on nothing more than the size of his own ego and narcissism......and everyone knows it.

anyone here know why its only a 25% shutdown? It should be 80% plus shutdown the scam courts and all their crappy laws affecting the free market.

@blaznwiipspman1: Some appropriations have already passed, and certain "essential" functions are exempted.

@foxhound_fox: "How is a wall going to be an improvement over the chain link fences they already use?"

This one, as proposed, will be bigger and longer. A fitting monument to his ego.

@mattbbpl: even the shutdown isn't a real shutdown. More drama and fake news coming out of CNN as usual. Still going on and on about the Russia story like a bunch of bums

There should be 80% shutdown with the exception of military.

With a solid wall you can't even see Mexico. Major difference :P

It's called a partial shutdown if you paid attention.

@blaznwiipspman1: Fortunately, most people aren't the "burn it all down" types and don't wish for such things.

@LJS9502_basic: partial shutdown my ass. You would think with the way CNN is painting it that government is completely shutdown and that nothing is working. 25% shutdown means 75% operational. Wake me up when something real happens.

Fox news does the same exaggerations on conservative issues. Complete meltdowns over the immigrants invasion in Europe, and 'terrorists' at southern border.

Where is the real news?? Where did it go?

CNN and fox have become the McDonald's and Burger King of fast food. Just pure junk and no value. Don't get me started on the garbage news media below them like Breitbart.

@blaznwiipspman1: No more patents! Viva la revolucion!

Got to compensate for those tiny hands.

@mattbbpl: lol, too many commie leeches out there asking for government handouts

Huh? This factual shutdown is fake news? What the hell?

Who the hell wouldn't cover the latest story that the FBI looked into whether a President was in control of Russians or not? That's a HUGE story for any President and only hack networks wouldn't cover it.

You mean red states?

So harm the livelihood of millions of people for a wall that most don't want, and isn't needed? A shutdown that only started because Rush, Hannity, etc. scared Trump into changing his mind on the last minute? Yikes. Why not fund the government first so people aren't screwed over?

Over three quarters of a million people are without work and have missed their pay. Our national treasures (parks) are being desecrated more and more as we speak, turning into trash heaps filled with human waste, our food isn't being examined which increases the risk of illness and deaths, TSA and hence airport security is compromised, the EPA has furloughed much of its workers, among others.

Must be easy to not have to deal with the "real" when you're not one bearing the consequences. I'm sure all those out of work appreciate such sentiment.

It's potential for quite the after effects as well. I heard some of the damage done to national parks might take decades to recover.

You mean like obama already set precedent for?

This is overtly stupid. They are doing it because people voted for a raving lunatic promising a wall, to help stop an issue that has been steadily getting worse for 30 years and started getting significantly worse in the last few when it seemed like obama had an open policy with "catch and release".

@waahahah: History ceased to exist when Trump was elected. Time itself imploded when he took office. Apparently we were living in some kind of utopia where everyone got along before he was president. I can't remember..it's all a blur.

If walls don't work, then why do gated communities have them?

I'll tell you why. Walls keep the BS out. There's too much BS coming into this country. Most of them want food stamps or welfare. Half of them look like thugs or gang bangers in the first place.

It's this BS Trump wants OUT. Trump wants America great again. Trump is completely correct that the US needs more immigration from places like Norway. Trump wants America GREAT again. By necessity, this includes a wall and Norway immigration. I would vote for Trump again if he runs for office a second time.

Democrats want to make America a shithole. They want foreigners to just flood in and take what's here until there's nothing left. Trump wants America great again. Would you prefer your neighborhood look like Sweden or look like El Salvador?

Democrats have absolutely nothing to offer American citizens, so they bring in foreigners like Mexicans instead to vote democrats into office. Trump is the opposite of that. Trump means make America great again.

Illegal immigration had been decreasing.

Feel free to provide an example where Obama vetoed a bill that would have otherwise funded the government and instead shut it down.

Except recently when it was increasing very rapidly. The entire reason they started 0 tolerance policy and started prosecuting everyone that tried to illegally enter the country. That exposed numerous issues with our immigration law.

Obama promised to veto any funding bill that didn't fund the ACA and there was a 16 day shutdown. Do you not remember history?

And was a bill passed that funded the government, but not the ACA that Obama vetoed?

What does it matter. You asked for an example where Obama held up the government. The promise of vetoing a bill caused the government to shutdown.

@waahahah: "What does it matter."

lol So no then.

I very much asked for an example where Obama vetoed a bill and a government shutdown occurred as a direct consequence because of it. You can see me asking that multiple times thanks to you quoting it.

@Serraph105: Your pigeon holing the argument in a situation that didn't happened. What happened was he explicitly said he'd refuse any bill that didn't have ACA funding and that caused funding to be delayed and the government shutdown.

Why do you think its important he actually vetoed the bill? That doesn't matter and its not what I asserted.

But vetoing a bill and resulting in a government shutdown is exactly what I asked about (because that's what Trump has done) and you went ahead and tried to say it's exactly what Obama did. Providing an example of that is impossible and you want to change the argument from, "Obama did it", to "Obama threatened it and that makes it the same as Trump who actually did it."

Good luck making that argument work on someone else, it absolutely doesn't work for me.

Why are you asking about it though. I'm asking you why you think its actually different. Its effectively the same if they don't send him the bill because they know it will be vetoed.

Your argument is BS because your trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist. The ACA was eventually funded. Obama set a precedent that you could shut down the government and get your shit funded.

@waahahah: @Serraph105:

Are we considering baselines in this determination? The Obama example was to maintain something preexisting. The Trump example is to implement something new.

Can you tell me why you think that matters? Its still one person that can hold up the entire government. He as part of the executive branch has the ability to make demands from congress/senate and shutdown the gov or he doesn't.

Yeah, I have no clue what vlad is going on about.

Recent poll conducted last night by Gallup shows 54% are blaming the president, 32% democrats. That number for Trump was 47% last week. If anything Democrats have zero necessity to cave in as the longer this is going on, Trump's message seems not be resonating with people outside his base.

There is an interesting difference between Obama demanding that Congress fund all of the government and Trump demanding congress make a fund for something completely new so that the rest of government is allowed to be funded.

And again, there is also a big difference between Trump actually vetoing the bill that would have kept the government open, and Obama never having the opportunity to do so. Obama said some words that got Congress to take him seriously, and Trump took an action that caused a bunch of people to not get paid, and at least half of congress still has no reason to take him seriously or fold.

There seems to be all kinds of differences between the two things waahaha is trying to argue are fundamentally the same thing.

@vl4d_l3nin: dude this is trump's shut down. The democrats already passed a measure to reopen the government. It's trump and the republicans in thw Senate blocking they way.

I'm suggesting that there is a shared principle though of whether or not the president should have that ability.

Trump also didn't veto the bill, he threatened too. Which is making congress take him seriously. Democrats have mostly used the dysfunctional immigration law and policies as a propaganda tool against trump. Guess what? What option does he have? Leave the same broken system in place or demand funding to help start fixing it. If congress can't pass laws that are better suited for handling illegal aliens without either caging children or the US taking custody of the children while their parents are in cages awaiting trial... or ask DHS for recommendations beyond more border wall... then a wall it is.

Not to mention this is only *new* in sense that they are going to build additional wall. But its all in service of enacting existing policy.. So the distinction your trying to make just doesn't matter. The president is promising to veto a bill because he believes he needs the funding to appropriately execute the laws in place.

@waahahah: Baselines matter in all negotiations and budgets. They determine what the Delta is calculated from.

Ok, but why does it matter in our discussion? We are talking about whether or not the president holding up the government for funding for something is OK.. when the other branches of gov are responsible deciding what is/isn't funded... the baseline of the budget means nothing because the president gets the budget with or without funding for what he wants. The base line in this case is what is handed to him. The delta for what the president wants is an increase in the proposed funding in both cases.

@waahahah: As an example, that baseline determines whether your boss is telling you that you'll get a 3 percent raise next year for continuing to work there, or whether he's demanding that you take a 3 percent cut for continuing to work there.

You didn't at all listen to what I wrote.. or answer my question. Why does it matter with our discussion? What is the baseline the president is using? Why is the baseline different in both cases?

The people that pass the budget, give the baseline. So in the instance of demanding further funding to make sure existing policies can be enacted properly is basically the same. Your example is irrelevant. So the president gets a budget and has the opportunity to veto it... he wants to provide a service or enforce a law.. and feels the budget given isn't sufficient for enacting that policy... he gets to veto it. The illegal entry surged and as high as 2006 and is only expected to get higher, I'd presume that the current budget is deficient and current methods likely deficient for handling the increase in illegal entry.

I read what you wrote and attempted to address via analogy. Let me try again more directly.

The prior year's baseline matters because the delta from it represents the "ask" - what is requested from the baseline expectation. This matters because it determines who is making the demands.

Let's use some more direct examples on nearly identical scenarios.

Let's say that Trump gets his wall's funding approved during the course of this shutdown. In this hypothetical scenario we will also say that when money must be appropriated next year the Democrats demand that all funding for the wall be stripped from the budget and further construction/maintenance on it to be ceased or else they will not allow funding for the government to occur. Would Democrats be the one's responsible for that shutdown?

What if next year the Democrats decide that enough is enough - we need single payer healthcare now! They decide that they will not fund the government unless legislation for that endeavor is passed and the appropriations necessary for it are approved. Would the Democrats be the ones responsible for that shutdown?

I'd argue that in both cases the answer is, "yes". That's largely because they're making demands that differ from the baseline.

'The people that passed the budget LAST YEAR, give the baseline.'

This would be a better statement. Baseline is an 'as is' assessment for comparison. It's basically a status quo.

The baseline argument here is pointless because it has nothing to do with making demands and being in a position that can effectively shut down the government until your specific demand is met. We are also not talking about "democratics" on a whole but the president being able to veto a spending bill and outright reject it causing the government to shutdown.

Was it wrong for congress to defund marijuana seizures and federal civil forfeiture. Should the president just outright reject any policy being defunded because its a policy on the books? Does the president have any more of a right to assume some policy or measure is necessary to demand funding.

None of what is important about this shutdown is being answered by your "baseline". Its just a point for helping or hurting a negotiation..

According to Fox News, Trumps voters are starting to turn on him in regards to the government shutdown.

It determines who initiated the shutdown. Now it's up to that individual/group to convince the public that shutting it down is the right thing to do.

Trump has caused the shutdown. Not just because he literally said he did, but because he actually did. That in itself isn't necessarily bad if doing so is worth the pain it's causing. But it's up to him and his party to convince us that it is worth the pain.