Trump goes on insane Press Conference Tirade:

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LJS9502_basic

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#101 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180239 Posts

@Dark_sageX said:
@LJS9502_basic said:
@vfighter said:

Every week the left finds a way to make themselves look and sound crazier and dumber and wow they didn't disappoint this week at all. It's to the point I'm almost starting to believe they're just trolling us at this point as I can believe anybody can be complete lunatics, but the left does get points for creativity for their mental gymnastics in turning anything that happens into Trump being a Nazi/raciest.

The only crazy people are trump and his supporters...........

Right....

None of those contradict my post.

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KOD

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#102  Edited By KOD
Member since 2016 • 2754 Posts

@horgen said:

In some ways that is true. But still. From Washington Post

I think its true no matter how you cut it.

The whole point of Godwins law is to point out absurd and ridiculous comparisons that make no sense. To point out someone going from zero to sixty in absurdity.

When discussing fascist, fascism or even potential fascist, fascism, its a perfectly acceptable marker, comparison, analogy, however you use it. I will say that the direct Hitler/Nazi thing is misguided and not overly accurate, but even then it still does not point out what Godwins law is supposed to point out.

@horgen said:

In some ways that is true. But still. From Washington Post

The comparison is certainly overdrawn if we consider how the two men came to power. Unlike Hitler, Trump never tried to seize power by force; he has not spent a decade calling for violence against entire peoples and nations; and he does not speak of building an empire beyond America’s shores.

We can start there. Furthermore, Nazis used scapegoating(granted Trump does this, but not as well), media co-optation(impossible to do in US today), paramilitary organizations (I'll throw in a quote here)

While the SA controlled the streets, the Hitler Youth indoctrinated young generations, and the government required all young Germans to participate in labor activities (such as road-building for the autobahn) from 1935 onward.

As far as I am aware (and writer of the article), Americans are not fond of government run organizations. And last: Emergency laws. I am lazy and will throw in another quote here.

Emergency laws came about in Germany after the 1933 arson attack on the Reichstag (Germany’s parliament). Hitler used the threat of terrorism and foreign aggression to justify sweeping autocratic policies, including the 1933 Enabling Act (which let the government issue laws without the Reichstag). Similarly, the Reichstag Fire Decree in 1933 gave Hitler the power to suspend most Germans’ political and individual rights, effectively outlawing opposition parties.

Changing the U.S. Constitution to abolish elections and remove freedom of speech is hardly imaginable. The United States has an uninterrupted democratic history, while Hitler was able to tap into nostalgia for the times under the last German emperor.

So if someone is to use the comparison, they have to know where it comes short as well.

Right.

So that article was written on September 22nd of 2016. At that time i was firmly against the rhetoric of proclaiming him to be a fascist. And ill stick to fascist because i feel that it what people wanted to convey and that is the real problem. Direct comparisons to Hitler is silly, calling him a nazi is a bit silly, etc. the problem is fascism and him having a dictator mentality. Anyway, at that time i was personally against calling him these things because we had not witnessed him with political power. This was used far more as a ridiculous tactic by people who were playing red/blue games. That said, i did recognize he seemed to have a fascist streak in him, but i think most modern politicians and especially businessmen, do. And its really a matter of seeing how that comes up once they get political power. Of course one of the irresponsible things our media did was ignore this streak and instead went to hyperbole (at the time), which IMO we see here in this article. They seem to be addressing ridiculousness instead of getting at the heart of problem, which again is fascism and the many forms it can take. IMO one of the reasons they or no one else really wanted to address this topic is becasue part of an oligarchy is the same fascism and the more they reported and spoke of these things, the more people would recognize what we really are, even before Trump.

@horgen said:

TL;DR: Trump have not or can not do what Hitler did to get power. US is fundamentally different.

This is always a hard topic for me to address as i fully recognize how our constitution was groundbreaking and to this day is one of the best starting points for any democracy.

If we protected our constitution the way we should and if our politicians respected it the way they should, i'd fully agree. The problem is we've allowed for this era of war and fear to take over the American citizen view and in that process we've allowed for the near complete disruption of our constitutional laws when applied to the people. So if we kept power in check the way our constitutions demands, we should be fundamentally different. That said, i dont think anyone is fundamentally different when it comes to avoiding the nature of power. This is an issue we've seen every nation of every type in every era, deal with.

Power begets power.

And when it comes to governments, there is really only one destination if left unchecked. Some form of totalitarianism.

One of the things i felt the "Trump is not part of the swamp!" people did not seem to understand was that he was really the ultimate goal to an Oligarchy. He is the ultimate goal of this corruption, of this state. A person with no political experience, no previous promises or plans to the people, who is a billionaire CEO becoming president. Why bother with the middlemen politicians in an Oligarchy when we can go right to $ = direct political power.

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Dark_sageX

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#103 Dark_sageX
Member since 2003 • 3561 Posts
@LJS9502_basic said:
@Dark_sageX said:
@LJS9502_basic said:
@vfighter said:

Every week the left finds a way to make themselves look and sound crazier and dumber and wow they didn't disappoint this week at all. It's to the point I'm almost starting to believe they're just trolling us at this point as I can believe anybody can be complete lunatics, but the left does get points for creativity for their mental gymnastics in turning anything that happens into Trump being a Nazi/raciest.

The only crazy people are trump and his supporters...........

Right....

None of those contradict my post.

Must be nice to live in an echo chamber huh?

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#104 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

@MirkoS77 said:
@thomasrl101 said:

As far as I can tell, the counter-protesters in large-part consisted of a combination of fascists and communists. How can you possibly say that the alt-right side advocated an ideology whose historical atrocities are nigh unfathomable, while failing to even acknowledge the atrocities committed in the name of the Marxist ideology advocated by Antifa. "At least [they] are fascists against such hate". Are you really that historically blind? Or is over one-hundred million deaths over the twentieth century as a result of class hate completely fine as long as it's not the racist type of hate? There's no ideology in this clash that's clearly more diabolical than the other. Unless you want to just count the dead bodies. In which case, the Marxism that Antifa advocates is far worse.

And to say that you should assign more scorn to one side because it's violence that's predicated on what you perceive to be a nastier ideology, is just wrong-headed. The violence is the problem here, not the belief. Having your own belief doesn't harm others. Violence does harm others. There's a clear barrier.

No one has the perfect ideology, or set of moral and political ideas, or a perfect moral compass. This is why most people have agreed to let the ideas battle it out on the marketplace and condemn those that degenerate into violent behavior. Ideology and violence are not inseparable. You can be deeply ideological without degenerating into physical damage to people or property. Most ideologues don't go around beating people up because they still have that barrier that stops them from being so arrogant that they think their ideas are so right that they are morally correct in injuring people.

I didn't make the comparison not because I'm blind and/or ignorant of history, but for two reasons: 1) because I don't believe this movement at all aligns with the particular ideology you proclaim led to the murder of millions nor would it ever have a chance to effect such an outcome even if it did, and 2) it's a ludicrous comparison to make viewed in context of our history.

To the above bolded underlined: of course I'd never argue all those deaths are fine, but I would argue that they're irrelevant to the issue. Are you blind to America's history of racial subjugation? Of the KKK? Of all the horrors wrought in white superiority and racism's name? Something that in a historical timeframe America's barely emerging from and we're still fighting to rid ourselves of? We don't have the blood of Marxism and Communism on our hands, but we do have the blood of what those at this alt-Right rally stand for and are seeking to return and propagate. We are not that far removed from such a mar on our nation, and our core values remain under threat due to it. We can easily backslide.

In light of this, this is something that our president, for crying out loud, came out and drew a moral equivalence to. Is he insane?? Viewed in the context of American history and harboring the residue of an ideology that we are attempting to eradicate, what Trump did was incredibly immoral, disrespectful, irresponsible and downright dangerous......something stemming from an ignorance of our past, or (as I personally believe) his tendency towards this ideology. We already know that Trump's past is not absent tales of discrimination towards minorities. What he did constitutes a complete collapse of his leadership and moral authority....if he had any to begin with.

Both ideologies are nasty, but let's not pretend one isn't far more deserving of renunciation and scorn over the other due to how close to home it hits and how the unequivocal repudiation of it in the present will help lead to its marginalization in the future. That is the predominant concern, not to point fingers to both sides in some petulant blame game. The danger here is right on our doorstep because it is interwoven into our national history. There should be no allowance for moral ambiguity towards this problem or even the merest reticence in its addressment. I have no idea how anyone can possibly defend this man.

Finally, when I stated "Violence is intrinsic and inseparable from that which grants it impetus", I did so under the assumption the preface of my first sentence would cover it ("In this instance"), I didn't mean it as a generalized statement but one given the situation. Just to clarify. I agree with your final paragraph.

Doesn't align with the particular ideology? Coulda fooled me when we saw antifa members fly hammer and sickle flags.. You going to try to claim next that the alt righters there don't actually support the Nazi Germany ideology when flying the Swastika flags?

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MirkoS77

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#105  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 17983 Posts

@sSubZerOo said:
@MirkoS77 said:
@thomasrl101 said:

As far as I can tell, the counter-protesters in large-part consisted of a combination of fascists and communists. How can you possibly say that the alt-right side advocated an ideology whose historical atrocities are nigh unfathomable, while failing to even acknowledge the atrocities committed in the name of the Marxist ideology advocated by Antifa. "At least [they] are fascists against such hate". Are you really that historically blind? Or is over one-hundred million deaths over the twentieth century as a result of class hate completely fine as long as it's not the racist type of hate? There's no ideology in this clash that's clearly more diabolical than the other. Unless you want to just count the dead bodies. In which case, the Marxism that Antifa advocates is far worse.

And to say that you should assign more scorn to one side because it's violence that's predicated on what you perceive to be a nastier ideology, is just wrong-headed. The violence is the problem here, not the belief. Having your own belief doesn't harm others. Violence does harm others. There's a clear barrier.

No one has the perfect ideology, or set of moral and political ideas, or a perfect moral compass. This is why most people have agreed to let the ideas battle it out on the marketplace and condemn those that degenerate into violent behavior. Ideology and violence are not inseparable. You can be deeply ideological without degenerating into physical damage to people or property. Most ideologues don't go around beating people up because they still have that barrier that stops them from being so arrogant that they think their ideas are so right that they are morally correct in injuring people.

I didn't make the comparison not because I'm blind and/or ignorant of history, but for two reasons: 1) because I don't believe this movement at all aligns with the particular ideology you proclaim led to the murder of millions nor would it ever have a chance to effect such an outcome even if it did, and 2) it's a ludicrous comparison to make viewed in context of our history.

To the above bolded underlined: of course I'd never argue all those deaths are fine, but I would argue that they're irrelevant to the issue. Are you blind to America's history of racial subjugation? Of the KKK? Of all the horrors wrought in white superiority and racism's name? Something that in a historical timeframe America's barely emerging from and we're still fighting to rid ourselves of? We don't have the blood of Marxism and Communism on our hands, but we do have the blood of what those at this alt-Right rally stand for and are seeking to return and propagate. We are not that far removed from such a mar on our nation, and our core values remain under threat due to it. We can easily backslide.

In light of this, this is something that our president, for crying out loud, came out and drew a moral equivalence to. Is he insane?? Viewed in the context of American history and harboring the residue of an ideology that we are attempting to eradicate, what Trump did was incredibly immoral, disrespectful, irresponsible and downright dangerous......something stemming from an ignorance of our past, or (as I personally believe) his tendency towards this ideology. We already know that Trump's past is not absent tales of discrimination towards minorities. What he did constitutes a complete collapse of his leadership and moral authority....if he had any to begin with.

Both ideologies are nasty, but let's not pretend one isn't far more deserving of renunciation and scorn over the other due to how close to home it hits and how the unequivocal repudiation of it in the present will help lead to its marginalization in the future. That is the predominant concern, not to point fingers to both sides in some petulant blame game. The danger here is right on our doorstep because it is interwoven into our national history. There should be no allowance for moral ambiguity towards this problem or even the merest reticence in its addressment. I have no idea how anyone can possibly defend this man.

Finally, when I stated "Violence is intrinsic and inseparable from that which grants it impetus", I did so under the assumption the preface of my first sentence would cover it ("In this instance"), I didn't mean it as a generalized statement but one given the situation. Just to clarify. I agree with your final paragraph.

Doesn't align with the particular ideology? Coulda fooled me when we saw antifa members fly hammer and sickle flags.. You going to try to claim next that the alt righters there don't actually support the Nazi Germany ideology when flying the Swastika flags?

I meant in terms of extremism. These people aren't on a march to throw others into slave labor camps and exterminate them by the tens of millions. Is that what you believe they are fighting for?

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LJS9502_basic

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#106  Edited By LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180239 Posts

@Dark_sageX said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

None of those contradict my post.

Must be nice to live in an echo chamber huh?

Must be hard to follow conversations huh?

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#107  Edited By deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

@MirkoS77: Do you think that was the thought process of the communist regime? That it suddenly just went to that point? Or the fact that it was a ideological crusade that went to that point based around paranoia and 1984 like thought crime policing in which they deemed any one who disagreed with them as at threat.. Pay close attention to the people ANTIFA and BAMN assault, they scream they are fascists even when they are not.. Because anything that doesn't agree with them is basically that.. We are seeing this with them assaulting journalists to innocent people walking by.. We literally have a video of BAMN assaulting a guy for holding a sign that he supports freedom of speech, crying out that he is a fascist. Even the Nazi that marched during that even didn't wrap their platform as the murdering of people, but a stand for white nationalism, but we all know how that ideology ends which led to that.. Just like we know how the communist ideology ends, and the people willingly flying the colors of the communist regimes who have committed heinous crimes against humanity.. Stop giving these communists a free pass, both should be demonized because they stand against the foundations of individual liberty in the west.

We have seen exactly how these groups act in wanting to silence any one and everyone they disagree with.. By using violence.. What do you think they would do if these kind of people were in power? These Antifa members are acting exactly how the communist parties in the west acted before they took power.

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#109 thomasrl101
Member since 2017 • 54 Posts

Antifa is more dangerous than the alt-right because it has support from the media. Good on Trump for condemning both sides.

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LJS9502_basic

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#110 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180239 Posts

@thomasrl101: You do know the difference between a message from group X and the media because it doesn't seem you do. I haven't seen any media outlet defending Antifa.

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#111  Edited By thomasrl101
Member since 2017 • 54 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:

@thomasrl101: You do know the difference between a message from group X and the media because it doesn't seem you do. I haven't seen any media outlet defending Antifa.

Seriously? I've seen the media defend antifa as the good guys. And the message seemed to have sunk in with a lot of you people here.

How did you get to the conclusion that I think a message from Antifa Boston is part of the media? I never implied that anywhere in my post.

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LJS9502_basic

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#112 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180239 Posts

@thomasrl101 said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

@thomasrl101: You do know the difference between a message from group X and the media because it doesn't seem you do. I haven't seen any media outlet defending Antifa.

Seriously? I've seen the media defend antifa as the good guys. And the message seemed to have sunk in with a lot of you people here.

How did you get to the conclusion that I think a message from Antifa Boston is part of the media? I never implied that anywhere in my post.

No. The protesters...yes. But that is not antifa specifically.

And yes you did imply that in your post when you showed that message and said the media supported them.