War in Ukraine. Did the West handle the post Cold War era badly?

I try to read some updates every day.

Really bad stuff and places blame on more than just Putin at this point.

@LJS9502_basic: I feel you, who else would you say is deserving of blame?

The military for the atrocities and those Russians that support this. And many do.

@LJS9502_basic: Yeah. Just speaking candidly abd being an American god knows I have no reason to talk. But this whole event has really changed my view of the Russian people unfortunately.

I know not all of them support this but they are literally slaughtering basically their own native people over land. Insane

Yep. I don't know why anyone is supporting this war.

Propaganda for years and years.

Exiled Russian oligarch says Putin went 'insane' after Ukrainians did not welcome his invasion and 'meet him with flowers' like he anticipated

• Ukrainian resistance to Putin's invasion led him to go "insane," a former Russian oligarch said.

• Mikhail Khodorkovsky told CNN that Putin expected to be met with "flowers" in Ukraine.

• "It not only just angered him, I really think it drove him literally insane," Khodorkovsky said.

An exiled Russian oligarch said Putin went "insane" after he anticipated that the people of Ukraine would "meet him with flowers" when he invaded the country.

"At first, what he wanted was to change the power in Kyiv, put in his puppet, and was expecting that this would be met with flowers thrown in the streets by Ukrainian people," Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the former CEO of the Russian oil giant Yukos, told CNN's Fareed Zakaria on Sunday.

Khodorkovsky — who was once the richest man in Russia, and was imprisoned for nine years on charges of fraud and tax evasion until his release in 2013 — has been an outspoken critic of Putin. He has said his imprisonment was politically motivated.

He told Zakaria that when Ukrainians resisted the invasion, Putin went crazy.

"The fact that the people in Kharkiv did not meet him with flowers, it not only just angered him, I really think it drove him literally insane. That's when he started bombing Kharkiv and Kyiv," Khodorkovsky said.

Khodorkovsky said Putin has three ways out of this crisis: continue to pressure Ukraine, use weapons of mass destruction to force Ukrainians to retreat, or start "actual" negotiations.

Last month the exiled oligarch said the war in Ukraine would lead to Putin's downfall.

"I'm convinced that Putin hasn't got much time left. Maybe a year, maybe three," he told CNN.

On Saturday, former Russian Deputy Energy minister Vladimir Milov told CNN's Erin Burnett top officials in the Russian government are "personally devastated" by Putin's aggression in Ukraine, adding it was only a matter of months before Putin lost his grasp on power.

My brother in law was in the peace corps in Moldova a while back ago.

He would tell me a bunch of wild stories from his time over there, he was there for like 3 years.

He was dating a girl he met there and her older brother asked him to go on a ride with him.

Guy was asking him a bunch of intimidating questions about his relationship with his sister while driving.

Mid sentence put his window down, pulled out a pistol and just started unloading on a pack of wild dogs on the side of the road.

He was freaked the hell out and figured her brother was really trying to intimidate him, but said he then realized they really hate those wild dogs around there and see them as pests, apparently they can be pretty vicious.

Here in the states we love our dogs, mans best friend, over there it seems they are more or less seen as a pest issue.

Not saying the clip you saw isn't bad or genuine. But your description reminded me of that story.

It would seem a lot of large banks have been profiting massively off Ukraine. International Monetary Fund, World Bank, and European Investment Bank, are loaning money to Ukraine to fight the war against Russia and looking to profit 300% on those loans. Basically, the longer the war in Ukraine goes on, the more people die, the more that is destroyed, the more these banks are going to profit. The people making the weapons being sent there certainly aren't doing so without a fairly large profit margin either.

It would seem the only western institutions that seem to care what happens in Ukraine, are those who are basically extorting them for profit. If Ukraine isn't being threatened and extorted by one side, they're being threatened and extorted by the other. Guaranteed nobody in power on either side cares about what happens to the people beyond profiting off of their suffering,

https://jacobinmag.com/2022/03/ukraine-foreign-debt-cancellation-imf-global-finance

Who the hell are you to suggest such a thing?

Refute it then, or stfu. IMF, World Bank, European Investment Bank, they're expecting up to 300% profits off their investments in giving money to Ukraine. They are taking advantage of Ukraine's desperate situation and need to fund a war for survival to loan shark the **** out of them. Your government knows it, and couldn't care less, otherwise they'd have spoken up about it. But so far, they're keeping their mouths shut and letting it happen.

Unfortunately the dogs in the clips were pets. All collars, some shot in garden cages.

I guess, in a weird, unintentional way, through their barbaric cruelty, the Russians actually lessoned the creature's suffering, as they effectively snuffed out their owner.

Could be a preventative measure as well because they know they would start to consume the corpses.

-

Watching Russia defend this at the UN, kinda just want someone to walk over and punch that bald **** in the face. Just going to a be a loop of them dancing and people forced to sit and listen to their nonsense.

-

Also

Your statement is a blanket absolute, regarding an impossible confirmation to boot. By all means, provide us all of your mind reading transcripts of every major world legislator confirming that 'nobody in power cares'.

But by all means, continue on this nonsense equivocation of actions and attitude taken by the world in response to the war in Ukraine.

Can't post here obv, but the Russians have def been eating dogs.

Pictures from#Kyivregion,#Vorzel. There is a ladder behind the house. To which these Russian fiends nailed dogs with self-tapping screws and freshened them here, and then ate them.... WTF?! The bag contains dog intestines.

Reading now that Russia is probably going to regroup and focus on eastern Ukraine, Donbas region where Ukraine lost some control already in 2014. Furthermore they expect the cities there to be bombed and destroyed just as much if not more than Mauripol.

Also Russian soldiers suffering from acute radioactive poison due to digging trenches in radioactive soil around Chernobyl.

lol yea, like, how dumb do you have to be?

It's like, super, basic common knowledge, and you're going to Chernobyl, one of the most dangerous areas on earth.

Shame Ukraine was left alone in this. From what I've heard of Russians thoughts, they are happy to take Ukraine and they want the Balkans and Poland as well.

Yeah, the attitude and responses of the banks and corporations are to profit off it. I'm not sure what world you live in, or think exists for this to be a surprise to you. 300% returns on investments on funds being sent to Ukraine. The least they could do is eliminate the interest on the repayments. But nope.

You think Russians learn what a disaster Chernobyl was? Wasn't it like 3-4 dead and less than 30 injured? Heroic effort by Soviet stopped that from being a disaster.

No one wants a larger war than it already is. However I am reading in the newspaper that some voices in Russia now portrays it more and more like a war for the survival of Russia, and in that case everything is allowed. So Nato might be directly involved later on anyway.

I think if Putin is successful, a larger war is inevitable. He's not going to stop.

It is odd how media tries to sell the image of "Madman Putin". How much sense does it make? Why would the invasion of Ukraine be like Austrias "Anschluß", the "forceful" integration of the Ostmark into the Third Reich? There was tangible ethusiasm before the Nazi takeover in Austria. Not only was there never this kind of welcoming sentiment on ukrainian mainland, but there had been civil war for more than 7 years at the time of the russian invasion. A civil war of PRO-russian seperatists versus the official goverment with clear ANTI-russian sentiment. Putin started the war because the status changed, because his political influence was reduced to nothing and Urkaine moved ever closer west. The pro-russian political cadre was hated, the sole reason for 2014 maidan and the civil war. So how the devil is it possible for anyone to think people of Ukraine would welcome russian troops? There was nothing of this kind of talk and or any sign of a flowery welcome pre-invasion. It was expected ukrainian resistance would falter sooner than later, but that was it.

There is 'information' floating around that Putin was misinformed by his own people. Just another stroke to the portrait "Insane Putin not knowing what he is doing". The same seller. War is the mere continuation of policy by other means (Carl von Clausewitz). If Putin thought he had this much support, where would be the reason to invade?

While i'm at it: Everybody wondering about inept russian warfare. Was that ever different? In the past weeks whenever noticing details in the reports about the war, several times i was being "racist", thinking "typical russian military doctrine". Comparing with wars/conflicts of the past - starting with WW1, ending with the war in Syria - i see nothing out of order. It hasn't changed, not one bit. "Oh that great russian army is not so great like everybody thought, hö hö hö". Maybe the masses are too spoiled by the "clean" wars led by western nations.

I don't doubt it. But for as long as possible, EU/Europe wants to keep this issue within Ukraine and Russia. Maybe the Russian army will stop by itself if the losses are big enough.

Amazing, so your response is double down and provide a non-sequitur.

@palasta: He went into Ukraine thinking they would love him and it would be over in 72 hours.

Either he's delusional, stupid, or both.

You seem awfully butthurt over the realization that western governments, banks, and corporations are profiting, and making gains off the suffering in Ukraine. I guess the world isn't as black and white as you would like to believe it is. But acting like a child who just discovered Santa isn't real, isn't the best way to go about it. Banks and corporations have always been corrupt, greedy, and self serving. You didn't seriously think that was going to change just because some Ukrainians are getting blown up now, did you?

Amazing, now it's a strawman. I wonder what logical fallacy will come next!

Ukrainian will have it's propaganda as well, but don't doubt this.

Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky believes the scenes in the town of Borodyanka are "significantly more dreadful" than the horrific sites witnessed in Bucha. Russian forces there have been reported as leaving civilians dying in the rubble of their destroyed homes for a week.

Ukrainian officials reported that 300 people were killed by Russian troops in Bucha with an estimated 50 of that number executed. On the damage seen in Borodyanka, 15 miles away though, Mr Zelensky said: "They have started sorting through the ruins in Borodianka. It's much more horrific there, there are even more victims of Russian occupiers."

Iryna Venediktova, Ukraine's Prosecutor General, added that 26 bodies had been recovered from underneath two destroyed apartment buildings in Borodyanka and accused Vladimir Putin of targeting civilian areas. The Ukrainian Parliament, meanwhile, posted the following tweet: "The destruction in Borodyanka was considered even worse than in Irpen and Bucha.

Another day another war crime

^ Of course Russia saying it wasn't them, as ever.

Now going to accuse the head of EU of lying, I suppose. They were just doing an exceptional job of being still and emitting the smell of rotting meat.

Russia lies, and they know they are lying and they know people know they are lying. What they are doing is little more than gaslighting. Keep lying to erode truth.

Keep repeating lies long enough, and even the most ridiculous can sound plausible.

@ghost_of_phobos:

Weren't one of the missiles used marked with "for the children"?

Age of social media really is something. Those 500,000 civilian deaths in Iraq happened right before Facebook and the rest started taking off around 2008. I'm not sure Bush would have started such a large campaign in this day and age. Heck, even the sloppy afghan retreat ended up being a huge slap in the face to biden. It's all because of social media.

Russia has been exposed as a weak country. They still rely heavily on armored tanks, older jets, and outdated missile systems. They really embarrassed themselves, being made a fool of by drones, and javelins. Though I can't blame them fully for getting trashed so bad. Their weapons are outdated and we supported the shit out of Ukraine with advanced weapons and Intel.

If china supported Russia though, Ukraine likely would be wiped off the map right now.

@horgen: I saw that image, but it's one of those things that might as well have been done afterwards.

I don't think being an American should stop us from calling this stuff out, or make us feel like hypocrites. The Iraq and Afghanistan invasions were wrong but I never really supported them, and I'll be damned if I am going to sit here and not say anything about Ukraine just because my government abused its power and went to war and killed civilians.

That, and an oppressive regime. Between the poisoning and other abuses of political rivals and dissidents, to the abuse and imprisonment of protestors, it's not really a free country.

Putin has been a tsar in all but name for a couple decades now.

Yeah this conflict has shown us a lot of things, but it really highlights just what bad shape Russia is in, especially militarily.

Not sure China is much better to be frank, the bulk of their arsenal is pretty much Russian-designed, Chinese-manufactured stuff. They likely have an advantage in other areas, however.

Was it really 500,000 civilians deaths? Wow. It's a miracle we haven't had like 20 more 9/11's at this point.

@mrbojangles25: In two weeks or so those numbers might get up to a million. It seems he increases it every time he post. But Bush, Blair and the rest of the gang should be trialed by war crimes too.

But Biden isn't Bush, journalists and political adversaries aren't murdered and people aren't sent to jail for having the "wrong" opinions.

--

I saw a thread a couple of weeks ago about the issues Russians were having with Chinese built vehicles and it was kind of surreal how broken they are.

--

btw I recommend this BBC podcast series about Putin. Its available in Spotify too. Each episode is just about 30m long and it's very worth to listen too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0015nfd/episodes/player

No. And ultimately bring up that stat is just deflection anyway, trying to mask the sins of the present with the sins of the past.

@mrbojangles25: I can't be too certain, but china seems to be pretty advanced in some areas like AI. They are also the kings of manufacturing capabilities, so things like designing and building drones, radar, and other advances technologies are probably their strengths. Of course they're behind us, but I'm not sure they're that behind Russia in all aspects. Of course they're just biding their time until they feel ready. They also invest as much as us in their military based on purchasing power.

As for Iraq, the civilian death estimates range from 300,000 to 500,000. I found the number on Google.

Did Ukraine beat Russia yet?

Yeah I asked because it seems high. Then again, we were there for up to 20 years, in two countries.

I don't think the US military is particularly bloodthirsty or barbarous, and 500,000 deaths seems like a number you really need to try to get, you're not going to get that high just by being negligent I feel like.

Just talking out my butt on this one, it could be that high for all I know.

Just a thought... If western countries supplies Ukraine a little better... Weapons and other essentials. Could we not destroy a significant part of the Russian firepower? Lower the threat that Russia poses to us?

If you'd been a month on military rations, you'd be eating dogs too. Besides dogs are delicacy in some parts of Asia.

Fasted for 40 days. Some people can do it for 150.

Contrary to the perception, the human body can do without food and remain healthy for a long time.

Also, I don't think "invading and eating someone's pet" because "this food ain't for me bro" constitutes as a delicacy.

So petition your government to give them more weapons and supplies.

@horgen: I think that would have the exact opposite effect. Putin is justifying this invasion by saying that the West is pushing him into this situation. The propaganda in Russia has convinced Russians that Putin is in the right, and that the West are trying to weaken Russia….supplying more weapons to kill more Russians will just enable Putin to justify more military actions.

Putin isn't going to be able to escalate when he lacks the equipment so the propaganda doesn't really matter.

@LJS9502_basic: Supplying arms to kill Russians won’t lessen the threat Russia poses to us. It will help Ukraine - and there’s a very good argument for doing that - but it will increase the threat to an all out war. Yes, Russia will probably lose a wider conflict, but we still don’t want one.

He's losing a minor war. Even he can't be that daft as to want to fight on multiple fronts. And while he may use bravado, I think he knows he can't do that.