War in Ukraine. Did the West handle the post Cold War era badly?

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deactivated-622fe92f3678e

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#401  Edited By deactivated-622fe92f3678e
Member since 2021 • 1836 Posts

@Skarwolf: Euromaiden wasn't a coup. But it was caused by illegal Russian meddling in Ukraine. Putin has been doing this for years. He couldnt overthrow Ukraine peacefully so he invaded on false pretenses.

I agree, sanctions need to end as they won't stop Putin and hurt us. The USA needs to grow a pair.

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#402  Edited By uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 62992 Posts

@Icarian said:

That's a bit alarmist. Gas mask is part of basic kit in any army. Or should be. Of course it may be that it actually isn't in Russia.

Russia has already been shelling civs purposefully.

If they can get away with "X thing", morality isn't really an issue.

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#403  Edited By deactivated-660c2894dc19c
Member since 2004 • 2190 Posts

@uninspiredcup said:
@Icarian said:

That's a bit alarmist. Gas mask is part of basic kit in any army. Or should be. Of course it may be that it actually isn't in Russia.

Russia has already been shelling civs purposefully.

If they can get away with "X thing", morality isn't really an issue.

Yes. I agree that they can do anything. My point was that issuing gas masks isn't a proof of incoming chemical attack. Gas masks are normal gear for soldiers since WW1 in any modern army.

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#404 deactivated-631373f44e9fd
Member since 2004 • 549 Posts

concrete particulates are a bitch. I used to work in floor finishing......place i worked for got shut down for not providing proper PPE.

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#405 LJS9502_basic  Online
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@Icarian said:
@uninspiredcup said:
@Icarian said:

That's a bit alarmist. Gas mask is part of basic kit in any army. Or should be. Of course it may be that it actually isn't in Russia.

Russia has already been shelling civs purposefully.

If they can get away with "X thing", morality isn't really an issue.

Yes. I agree that they can do anything. My point was that issuing gas masks isn't a proof of incoming chemical attack. Gas masks are normal gear for soldiers since WW1 in any modern army.

Not usually used in the field unless there is a reason to have them though.

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#406 Kadin_Kai
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@Maroxad: I don’t think Russia will invade Sweden if they did catch you.

Quite a few British, Germans, Irish joined the Islamic State and fought against the US.

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#407  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25404 Posts
@kadin_kai said:

@Maroxad: I don’t think Russia will invade Sweden if they did catch you.

Quite a few British, Germans, Irish joined the Islamic State and fought against the US.

You are aware Putin has been planning on invading Sweden and Finland for years now? And they have recently thrown another round of threats as well, demanding the 2 countries not to join NATO.

Also been routinely flying planes above both countries.

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#408 Kadin_Kai
Member since 2015 • 2247 Posts

@Maroxad: By your own very logic, where is the proof? Didn’t you just say we need proof?

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#409  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25404 Posts
@kadin_kai said:

@Maroxad: By your own very logic, where is the proof? Didn’t you just say we need proof?

Positive statements require evidence...

Regarding the hypothetical Russian invasion of sweden and finland

https://www.thelocal.se/20220302/four-russian-fighter-jets-violate-swedish-airspace-over-baltic-sea/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-12/russian-official-warns-finland-sweden-against-joining-nato

As for the scenarios they made for a potential invasion, don't have anything on hand right now. I can post a pic of that later.

Seriously though, who do you think you are fooling? Russia has been known for being a belligerent state for a while now.

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#410 horgen  Moderator
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@Maroxad said:
@kadin_kai said:

@Maroxad: By your own very logic, where is the proof? Didn’t you just say we need proof?

Positive statements require evidence...

Regarding the hypothetical Russian invasion of sweden and finland

https://www.thelocal.se/20220302/four-russian-fighter-jets-violate-swedish-airspace-over-baltic-sea/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-12/russian-official-warns-finland-sweden-against-joining-nato

As for the scenarios they made for a potential invasion, don't have anything on hand right now. I can post a pic of that later.

Seriously though, who do you think you are fooling? Russia has been known for being a belligerent state for a while now.

Russia violate Norwegian airspace as well.

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#411 deactivated-628e6669daebe
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#412 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 3705 Posts

Wish we did the same

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#413 SOedipus
Member since 2006 • 15075 Posts

I hope China stays out.

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#414 deactivated-622fe92f3678e
Member since 2021 • 1836 Posts

@SOedipus: So do I. But I doubt it.

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#415 Kadin_Kai
Member since 2015 • 2247 Posts

@Maroxad: You said, Russia has been planning on invading these countries for “years.”

That’s very different to your links!

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#416 SOedipus
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@deactivated-622fe92f3678e said:

@SOedipus: So do I. But I doubt it.

Who was this dude?

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#417 deactivated-628e6669daebe
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@SOedipus: China is in since day 0.

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#418  Edited By uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 62992 Posts
@ghost_of_phobos said: French activist breaks into Putin's daughter's tacky villa in Biarritz, France, changes the locks and announces that it will now be used to house Ukrainian refugees instead

B-A-S-E-D

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#419  Edited By deactivated-628e6669daebe
Member since 2020 • 3637 Posts

‘They’re lying to you’: Russian TV employee interrupts news broadcast | Russia | The Guardian

"Marina Ovsyannikova, an editor at Channel One, burst on to the set of the live broadcast of the nightly news on Monday evening, shouting: “Stop the war. No to war.”

She also held a sign saying: “Don’t believe the propaganda. They’re lying to you here.” It was signed in English: “Russians against the war.”

The news anchor continued to read from her teleprompter speaking louder in an attempt to drown out Ovsyannikova, but her protest could be seen and heard for several seconds before the channel switched to a recorded segment.

Ovsyannikova also released a pre-recorded video via the OVD-Info human rights group in which she expressed her shame at working for Channel One and spreading “Kremlin propaganda.”"

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#420 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 62992 Posts

Brave lady.

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#421  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25404 Posts

@SOedipus: I think I know who it was, but due to privacy I dont think I can say.

@kadin_kai said:

@Maroxad: You said, Russia has been planning on invading these countries for “years.”

That’s very different to your links!

Yes, this has been going on for years now,

https://www.thelocal.se/20140918/russian-jets-violate-swedish-airspace-report/

Russia has been bullying the nordic countries for a long time now.

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#422  Edited By Kadin_Kai
Member since 2015 • 2247 Posts

@Maroxad: Now it’s bullying, not quite a planned invasion.

In 2001 a US spy plane flew into Chinese airspace and collided with a Chinese plane. Does that mean the US has been planning an invasion of China for over 20 years? Wow!!!

You know go and join the war, I guess all the FPS games you’ve played will help!

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#424  Edited By uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 62992 Posts

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-05-12-uk-russian-embassy-tweets-screenshot-from-command-and-conquer-generals

The Russian Embassy has used a screenshot from Command And Conquer as evidence of chemical weapons. They've retroactively added text, in case they get mocked.

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#425  Edited By deactivated-628e6669daebe
Member since 2020 • 3637 Posts

@uninspiredcup: LOL just pure trolling and the west is tolerating this BS.

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#426  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25404 Posts
@kadin_kai said:

@Maroxad: Now it’s bullying, not quite a planned invasion.

In 2001 a US spy plane flew into Chinese airspace and collided with a Chinese plane. Does that mean the US has been planning an invasion of China for over 20 years? Wow!!!

You know go and join the war, I guess all the FPS games you’ve played will help!

The fact that they have been bullying doesnt also negate the fact that they have been drafting plans on potential invasions of both countries. Ands have been doing so for a long while.

There is a reason Nordic and Balkan countries have been especially concerned with Russia, and Poland shares these concerns. Russia has been eyeing the swedish Gotland and Finnish Åland for a long time.

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#427 Kadin_Kai
Member since 2015 • 2247 Posts

@kadin_kai: You’ve gone full circle now. You write as though you have facts, that they’ve been planning an invasion for, “years.”

A territorial invasion is different from planning an invasion for “years.”

If you believe they’re both the same, then by the same logic, the US has also been planning an invasion of China for “years.”

Seriously go and join the war if you feel so strongly about it, your death or capture won’t cause an international incident.

Like I said, many in Europe joined the Islamic State against the US and many died, no international incident.

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#428 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 3705 Posts

Azov battalion paraphernalia ban on Amazon has been lifted. Get your merch now!

  • "Bright, accurate color, soft material for outstanding finished garments, our shirt will make you more attractive, charming, fashionable and chic, make your shape look great"

lolololol

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#432  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25404 Posts
@kadin_kai said:

@kadin_kai: You’ve gone full circle now. You write as though you have facts, that they’ve been planning an invasion for, “years.”

A territorial invasion is different from planning an invasion for “years.”

If you believe they’re both the same, then by the same logic, the US has also been planning an invasion of China for “years.”

Seriously go and join the war if you feel so strongly about it, your death or capture won’t cause an international incident.

Like I said, many in Europe joined the Islamic State against the US and many died, no international incident.

There are far more ways to volunteer than the ways you seem to think there are...

And they have been planning an invasion for years, there have been leaked stuff highlighting planned movements. Hell, even on Russian TV there was a programme where they talked among other things about capturing Gotland.

Planning incase an invasion does happen.

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#433  Edited By deactivated-628e6669daebe
Member since 2020 • 3637 Posts

@Maroxad: After how weak Russia is showing to be in Ukraine, I wouldn't be too concerned.

Why aren't you guys part of NATO? I'm much more in favour of an European army than NATO but as things are now, with two major fascist dictatorship's aligning, I think you guys need to move. At least a Scandinavian coalition or something.

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#434  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25404 Posts
@ghost_of_phobos said:

@Maroxad: After how weak Russia is showing to be in Ukraine, I wouldn't be too concerned.

Why aren't you guys part of NATO? I'm much more in favour of an European army than NATO but as things are now, with two major fascist dictatorship's aligning, I think you guys need to move. At least a Scandinavian coalition or something.

Yeah, the risk is minimal right now. But keeping emergency plans is prudent.

I am far more worried for the Russians than anything. There are some absolutely ghastly stories out there, about how horribly the Russian soldiers are being treated. By their authorities. The Russian soldiers of today are mistreated just as badly as they were by Stalin.

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#435 LJS9502_basic  Online
Member since 2003 • 180245 Posts

@SOedipus said:
@deactivated-622fe92f3678e said:

@SOedipus: So do I. But I doubt it.

Who was this dude?

The Nation

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#436 deactivated-628e6669daebe
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#437 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 62992 Posts

The Eton boys here would throw us under the bus at the first opportunity.

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#438 SargentD
Member since 2020 • 10114 Posts

@uninspiredcup said:

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-05-12-uk-russian-embassy-tweets-screenshot-from-command-and-conquer-generals

The Russian Embassy has used a screenshot from Command And Conquer as evidence of chemical weapons. They've retroactively added text, in case they get mocked.

Tiberium labs lol

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#439 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 62992 Posts

TBF that is from 2016. Still fucking stupid, obv.

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#440  Edited By deactivated-660c2894dc19c
Member since 2004 • 2190 Posts
@ghost_of_phobos said:

@Maroxad: After how weak Russia is showing to be in Ukraine, I wouldn't be too concerned.

Why aren't you guys part of NATO? I'm much more in favour of an European army than NATO but as things are now, with two major fascist dictatorship's aligning, I think you guys need to move. At least a Scandinavian coalition or something.

Main reason for Finland is the USA. We aren't big fans of American foreign policy and we thought that it'd more likely that we will be forced into an American war than Russia attacking us. Now, however, it's the first time in history when more than 50 % of Finns support joining NATO. Before this war that was usually around 20-25 %.

I wouldn't be surprised that within in a year we'll apply for membership.

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#441  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25404 Posts
@Icarian said:
@ghost_of_phobos said:

@Maroxad: After how weak Russia is showing to be in Ukraine, I wouldn't be too concerned.

Why aren't you guys part of NATO? I'm much more in favour of an European army than NATO but as things are now, with two major fascist dictatorship's aligning, I think you guys need to move. At least a Scandinavian coalition or something.

Main reason for Finland is the USA. We aren't big fans of American foreign policy and we thought that it'd more likely that we will be forced into an American war than Russia attacking us. Now, however, it's the first time in history when more than 50 % of Finns support joining NATO. Before this war that was usually around 20-25 %.

I wouldn't be surprised that within in a year we'll apply for membership.

In Sweden we always prided ourselves in our Neutrality. And just like with Finland, the US foreign policy is not very popular over here. Especially the war in Iraq.

Which is why I find it so bizarre when people are trying to call me a hypocrite for opposing this war, and alleging I was for some gods forsaken reason in favor of the other wars. I criticized them all.

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#442 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 50198 Posts

@vl4d_l3nin said:

Wish we did the same

lol, nah because over here, their buddies would quickly release them. Not like there's much consequence anyways for looting.

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#443 Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 21607 Posts

@uninspiredcup said:

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-05-12-uk-russian-embassy-tweets-screenshot-from-command-and-conquer-generals

The Russian Embassy has used a screenshot from Command And Conquer as evidence of chemical weapons. They've retroactively added text, in case they get mocked.

ROFL!

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#444  Edited By uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 62992 Posts

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#445 deactivated-628e6669daebe
Member since 2020 • 3637 Posts

@uninspiredcup: What's that?

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#446 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 62992 Posts

@ghost_of_phobos: Looks like a propaganda screen protected by police.

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#447  Edited By deactivated-628e6669daebe
Member since 2020 • 3637 Posts

Another one bites the dust?

Fourth Russian general 'killed storming Mariupol' in blow to Vladimir Putin's invasion (msn.com)

"Major General Oleg Mityaev was killed on Tuesday during the storming of besieged Mariupol, according to a Ukrainian Interior Ministry adviser."

Also,

Ukraine Strikes Back: Barrage Leaves Russian-Occupied Kherson Airbase In Flames (thedrive.com)

"satellite imageThe War Zonehas obtained from Planet Labs confirms that Ukrainian forces have damaged and destroyed a number of Russian helicopters, and caused other damage, in an attack on Kherson Airbase in the southern part of the country today."

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#448 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 62992 Posts

The generals should not be at the front-lines, indicative of how badly they are fucking up.

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#449 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 62992 Posts

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60756993

Even the worst war comes to an end. Sometimes, as in 1945, the only outcome is a fight to the death. Mostly, though, wars end in a deal which doesn't satisfy anyone entirely, but at least brings the bloodshed to an end.

And often, even after the worst and most bitter conflicts, the two sides gradually resume their old, less hostile relationship.

If we're lucky, we're beginning to see the start of this process happening now between Russia and Ukraine.

The resentment, particularly on the Ukrainian side, will last for decades. But both sides want and need peace: Ukraine, because its towns and cities have taken a terrible battering, and Russia, because it has already, according to the Ukrainian president, sacrificed more men and material than it lost in its two shockingly violent wars in Chechnya - although that is impossible to verify.

But no-one willingly signs a peace agreement which is likely to lead to their own downfall.

For Russian President Vladimir Putin the search is on for ways of saving face. Ukraine's President Zelensky has already shown remarkable skill as a diplomat, and he's clearly willing to say and do whatever is acceptable to himself and his people in order to get Russia off his country's back.

For him, there's one overriding objective - to make sure that Ukraine comes out of this appalling experience a united, independent country, not a province of Russia, which is what President Putin originally seemed to think he could turn it into.

For President Putin, all that counts now is that he can declare victory. No matter that everyone in his entire administration will understand that Russia has been given a bloody nose in this unnecessary invasion. No matter that the 20% or so of Russians who understand what's really going on in the world will know that Putin has bet the house on a fantasy of his own devising, and lost.

The battle will be for the support of the remaining majority of the population, who tend to believe implicitly what they're told on state television - even when there are moments such as the sudden popping-up on screen of the extraordinarily brave TV editor Marina Ovsyannikova with a placard to say that everything people are being told is propaganda.

So what will make President Putin come out of this disastrous war looking good in the eyes of Russia's majority?

Firstly, an assurance, perhaps even to be written into Ukraine's constitution, that it has no intention of joining Nato in the foreseeable future. President Zelensky has already prepared the way for this, by asking Nato for something it couldn't agree to (establishing a no-fly-zone over Ukraine), then criticising the alliance for letting him down on this, and finally musing out loud that he wasn't sure that if Nato behaved like this, it was actually worth joining.

As clever and wise political positioning goes, it doesn't get much better than this. Nato gets the blame, which it can easily cope with, and Ukraine gets the freedom to act as it wants.

But that's the easy bit. It'll be harder to finesse the urgent ambition which Zelensky and Ukraine have to join the EU, something Russia is almost equally hostile to, though there are ways around that too. Hardest of all for Ukraine to swallow will be Russia's outright theft of Ukrainian territory, in total defiance of the solemn international treaty it had signed to protect Ukraine's borders.

The loss of Crimea in 2014 is something Ukraine may well be forced to give its formal acceptance to, in some way. And Russia clearly intends to hang on to those areas in eastern Ukraine which are pretty much effectively under Russian control already - and perhaps more.

In 1939, Joseph Stalin invaded Finland, which had once been part of the Russian empire. He was sure his troops would carve their way through it in no time - just as Putin thought about Ukraine in 2022. Stalin's generals, understandably terrified for their lives, promised him he was right. And, of course, he wasn't.

The Winter War dragged on into 1940, the Soviet army was humiliated, and Finland was left with a justifiable national pride in itself for resisting a superpower. It lost territory, because autocrats like Stalin and Putin need to come out of these things looking as though they've scored a victory. But Finland kept the most important, most imperishable thing: its full independence as a free, self-determining nation.

As things stand today, Ukraine - having beaten off so many Russian attacks and made Putin's forces look feeble and ineffective - should be able to do that. Unless Putin's armies can capture Kyiv and much more of Ukraine's territory, then Ukraine will survive as a national entity, just as Finland did in 1940.

Losing Crimea and parts of eastern Ukraine would be a bitter, illegal and wholly unjust loss. But Vladimir Putin would have to start using far more serious weapons even than he has already, if he's to come out on top. As things stand, in the third week of fighting, no-one can seriously doubt who the real winner in this war will be.

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tocool340

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#450  Edited By tocool340
Member since 2004 • 21700 Posts
@SOedipus said:
@deactivated-622fe92f3678e said:

@SOedipus: So do I. But I doubt it.

Who was this dude?

Probably thenation. It appeared Stevo made him rage quit in a different thread...