War in Ukraine. Did the West handle the post Cold War era badly?

@ghost_of_phobos: Russia Kremlin is really worried.

The error is how people thought the cold war ended in the early 90's but it is still alive and well. The wall came down and the Soviet Union changed boundaries, leaders, etc., but unlike the belief of those actions ending decades of conflict, none of it stopped the seventy year proxy war.

The cold war had cooled down to be replaced by the Middle East. Attention was drawn away from Russia and focused else where. Russia was even part of the collation to take out Saddam Hussian. Later it was discovered Russia was supplying Saddam with night goggles. When Saddam was defeated Putin began his conquest of their prior territory. Putin will not stop until he has them all back or the West steps in to stop him.

Now I better understand why you thrive on conspiracy and propaganda. It's just irrational paranoia and extreme gullibility. It's so sad that you're allowed to vote. Wow.

Chin up.

It sure as hell makes more sense than your canned "Putin is just a lunatic" responses from the complicit media. ROFLMAO. Gotta keep answers nice and simple so people like you can pretend you know what you're talking about.

I never wrote that. You're doing that thing where you make up a position in your head and attack me on it. lol

What exactly will Nato do against Putins and soldier war crimes?

Ask him nicely not to do it repeatedly? Condemn him? Say "solidarity" several hundred times?

Sanctions are great, and do seem to be having a reaction from him, but he's flippantly targetting civilians.

Zelensky sounds increasingly desperate, and rightly so. They are (understandably) shit scared of WW3. So, brutally ramped up and up while we watch and tut.

Unsurprisingly, already rapes happening. Practically always happens with occupying forces. Once Russia gets at least a tepid grip, can guarantee that will ramp up as well. Be desperate to hold territory they can't with a populace that hates them and try to put the foot down by the most despicable means possible.

@uninspiredcup: With WW3 on the table I think nothing will be done regarding that.

Although I have my doubts that if NATO goes into Ukraine Putin will start a nuclear war or even escalate the conflict significantly. As we stand NATO is already supporting Ukraine and he's doing nothing about it. Same with sanctions, he's saying sanctions are declarations of war yet he does nothing about it either. He's struggling to defeat one of the poorest countries in Europe that's the reality of the situation.

We just need to collectively abandon Russia during the incoming years. And unfortunately for Ukrainians too, I suspect the west will make sure that Ukraine is a wound that never heals for Russia.

It would be nice if we could somehow just let the people at the top in Russia suffer.

@horgen: I don't think we have that power. Although we're not on a military conflict with Russia we are on a economic war, for sure. And right now, while Russia is slaughtering civilians I honestly don't care about who's struggling in Russia.

But for the coming years, I don't see how hatred from Ukrainians towards Russian won't lead to the death of innocent Russians. And the west will probably exploit it.

Even former President is fighting.

As we start a 3rd week of conflict

https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/07/ukraine-takes-back-city-from-russia-and-kill-high-ranking-commanders-16229639/

If WW3 starts I want to save my ass fight alongside these fellows.

@uninspiredcup: It's heartbreaking what this mothers must be feeling right now.

I have no idea how are things in Russia right now, but I imagine that being a dictatorship it must be very difficult to have a voice unless you're coming from a place of real loss and feel you got nothing else to lose.

My girlfriend works for a major multinational and Russians in the internal social media platform are asking the company for help to move to outside Russia. Funnily enough Chinese people working in China are the ones complaining and asking people to avoid calling an invasion because it could offend Russians (I swear I'm not joking).

@uninspiredcup said:

Even former President is fighting.

I see him dressed up in a uniform and standing in front of a camera. I do not see him fighting though.

I am now reading that Russian forces are aiming at civilians.

@eoten: Has been interviewed multiple times on the front-lines with a gun fighting, being shelled and helping civs.

That was directly outside Kyiv where Russia inch closer to slaughtering them.

So yea.

Yes. They've been doing it since almost the start, now it's intensified. Purposefully attempting to terrorize them.

Yep. And the west needs to get off it's ass and help. Putin threats nukes but he knows damn well his country would be a target for retaliation and he's leveraging the west is too afraid to do anything. So far he's right. And I'm disgusted with NATO's reaction to this point.

I get everyone's pissed off at Russia, I'm pissed off at thier government for allowing this. However is economical isolation the solution? Honestly is this the best the West can do?

I'm not saying we jump start WW3 and and risk nuclear warfare but is anyone going to even try to negotiate with Putin? Can leaders in the west try to make a deal??

And that's not me being a "Putin sympathizer" I'm just trying to be realistic. I mean can't leaders in the west try to come to some sort of peace agreement? I think Putin might actually take it. This was no where as easy as he was hoping. I just feel by taking negotiation off the table we are basically just going to let this drag out and Ukraine will suffer. The other alternative is basically WW3 if the west actively starts to fight in Ukraine.

I think a deal can be made, this idea of just cutting off Russia economically to punish them I don't think will work out in our favor. Kind of just backing an angry dog into a corner. Also we are mainly just punnishing the civilians of Russia at that point, oligarchs will be able to get by fine, it's the people that will suffer.

Have any leaders made attempts at meeting with Putin or trying to negotiate something? Putin might not be interested as of now but eventually he might, if this drags on to long it becomes Russian version of Afghanistan.

@sargentd: They tried to negotiating with Putin. He wants the Soviet Union back. He's not going drop it if there are no repercussions to him/Russia.

@LJS9502_basic: what did they offer him? Link?

The dude that claims he wont stop before the Ukrainian forces put down their weapons… won’t accept anything less than Ukraine.

@horgen: may be true, but the west is doing it's self a disservice by not attempting too. Putin doesn't want to level Ukraine, he wants control of it and fears it becoming a state of NATO on his border. It doesn't look like he will get control of it, it looks like he bit off more than he could chew. Sure he could still level it if he wants too. But that's counter productive to why he invaded it in the first place. All I'm saying is it might be worth putting together a deal that offers Putin an out. If anything to stop the current invasion and buy time for the long game.

I do worry that if we don't offer an out, he will will go to the "level it" option. The whole "if I can't control it no one will". Again backing an angry dog into a corner. He might start to lash out.

And you "say" you're not a putin apologist. What do you think they should offer him? A sovereign country that has no wish to be subservient to Putin?

@LJS9502_basic: a trump apologist?? Wtf are you talking about? What does trump have to do with Russia invading Ukraine?

Yea, it's easy to see Russians as simplistic anime villains who think friendship is overrated, but from our perspective and the world we inhabit, I think it's really almost incomprehensible to comprehend the effect that barrage of propaganda and control has had on them. Even stuff people point to like Fox News, nothing compared to Russia.

Watching this war now, the stuff they are doing is atrocious, but I still don't hate them. They are victim of this themselves for the most part.

Russians.

LOL meant Putin.

@LJS9502_basic: wanting our leaders to work on a solution to de escalate and make a deal with Putin is not being a Putin apologist.. what he's doing is fucked up. But your only alternative is sanctions and letting Ukraine suffer in a dragged out conflict or WW3. The only other option is negotiate a deal. I don't like it either but those are your options.

Isolating Russia economically if anything will just embolden Putin to do whatever he wants with Ukraine, nothing to lose.

And I'll ask again. What do you think they can do?

The thing is, Putin does not want to negotiate. He made it very clear: he wants Ukraine demilitarized, Donbass, Crimea and forgot that other regions name either belonging to Russia or being independent regions, and Ukraine not joining any economic or military blocks. Anything Ukraine negotiates will be to its own detriment...

Yes it's apparent to most people that Putin doesn't want any negotiations. But I'm asking @sargentd specifically because he's complaining about negotiations not being done. Even though they started that pre invasion. He seems to have disappeared though so he has no answer for his criticisms.

He could attempt to work with them instead of seeking control.

@LJS9502_basic: You are asking me personally what to negotiate? Like I have any say in anything with this situation.

It is not my job, world leaders have more power and resources to work with than I do LJS.

They were trying to negotiate before the invasion you say? Well I'd say whatever deal they offered obviously failed. So offer something else.

Again we have 3 options.

Isolate Russia economically, which will not end conflict in Ukraine. It will drag it out, either Putin eventually takes it or he doesn't and destroys it.

Fight them with our military, this is WW3. Which is a way worse conflict than we already have.

Meet with Putin and come to a deal. Maybe it's stipulations on Ukraine in regards to NATO, some sort of out for Putin. I don't like this but the alternatives all seem alot worse, especially if we are talking about trying to save lives.

@horgen: yeah I agree that would make more sense than control. But at this point the conflict might be too much for Ukraine and Russia to work together on anything unfortunately.

Yeah now it is a little late, but lets not forget who decided to invade. This is on Putin and Kreml.

This isn’t the first time Putin does this. It is the first time he meets resistance both from the country he invades and The West.

@sargentd: If Russia or China invaded the US and you saw yourself in a similar position would you accept giving up Alasca and your political autonomy?

I honestly would rather die fighting than losing my country and my future to such abominable regimes.

I'm 100% with Ukraine on this. Make Putin bleed as long as you're willing to fight.

@ghost_of_phobos: @sargentd: If Russia or China invaded the US and you saw yourself in a similar position would you accept giving up Alasca and your political autonomy?

I honestly would rather die fighting than losing my country and my future to such abominable regimes.

I'm 100% with Ukraine on this. Make Putin bleed as long as you're willing to fight.

Edit: But I agree that a peaceful solution must be found. One that benefits Ukraine and for that pressure must be kept over Russia.

@ghost_of_phobos: I am in no way suggesting Ukraine give any part of their country to Russia. I am in support of Ukraine fighting for their sovereignty.

The peace terms Russia is now offering seem to have changed slightly:

• Ukraine stops fighting
• Declares neutrality - (can not join NATO or the EU)
• Recognises the breakaway regions in the Donbas. (Although the full provinces are much larger than the current ones) Not sure if Putin wants wants them fully (probably does)
• Crimea is recognised as part of Russia

They seem to have dropped the 'Denazification' idea now entirely. It never made sense anyway seeing that Zelenskyy is Jewish. It's still tantamount to a full surrender, same as before. But I think that Putin has finally realised that an occupation of all Ukraine is completely impossible. A breakup is his idea.

The Nazi accusation came around because of the Azov Battalion who are a right wing Neo-Nazi Paramilitary unit of the Ukrainian National Guard. Even the unit's insignia is of a Wolfsangel which was the unit insignia of the notorious 2nd SS Panzer Division 'Das Reich'. Of course, this paramilitary force makes up only a tiny fraction of the Ukraine defence forces.

> Give me thing

> Get fucked

@sargentd: Ah I see. You're criticizing things you know nothing about and when asked what you would have them do then you pull the it's not my job card. Kind of cowardly. If you have a criticism then you should have answers.

I think Putin initially wanted a regime change in Ukraine and to take most of the country except maybe a far western region. He thought he would stroll in and Ukraine would fold in days. That hasn't happened and Russia is paying a huge price.

It would be worth it, IMO, for Ukraine to formally give up Crimea and those 2 rebel provinces if it guarantees their sovereignty and autonomy. I think Putin wants a land bridge from Russia to the Crimea and that runs mostly through massive pro-russia areas anyways. Save the rest of the country and the lives of their people. I'd be fine with Ukraine never joining NATO as long as the peace terms can pin russia down to never invading again. Ukraine gets to maintain its military. They just cant have nukes. But Ukraine should be able to join the EU - an economic and nonmilitary alliance - if they say choose. They can still negotiate a guaranteed favorable trade agreement with Russia.

"Vitaly Gerasimov: second Russian general killed, Ukraine defence ministry claims

Ukrainian intelligence says major general in Russia’s 41st army died outside Kharkiv along with other senior officers

Gerasimov took part in the second Chechen war, the Russian military operation in Syria, and the annexation of Crimea, winning medals from those campaigns.

The loss of top ranking officers has come at a time when much of Putin’s invasion force has become bogged down by logistical problems, poor morale and Ukrainian resistance. The failure of its encrypted communications system could be another severe blow.

“In the call, you hear the Ukraine-based FSB officer ask his boss if he can talk via the secure Era system. The boss says Era is not working,” Grozev said on Twitter. “Era is a super expensive cryptophone system that [Russia’s defence ministry] introduced in 2021 with great fanfare. It guaranteed [to] work ‘in all conditions’.”"

Vitaly Gerasimov: second Russian general killed, Ukraine defence ministry claims | Ukraine | The Guardian

The free peoples or mid-tier earth.

@uninspiredcup: respect for them