War in Ukraine. Did the West handle the post Cold War era badly?

> Ukrainian grannies actually want raped by Russian soldiers

> Ukrainian children should be drowned and killed

Kremlin mouthpiece, he's head director of "RT" which some people in the West, basically right-wingers and conspiracy theorists take as proper news.

This rhetoric also coincides with the rumours Russia is about to blow up a dam because they know can't stop Ukraine advances, flooding the region.

On top of systemically attacking the energy infrastructure to deny clean water and electricity to the civilians' population. Aren't even using these drones to attack the army, it's the general populace they are trying to fragment.

@uninspiredcup: So a terrorist state then?

lol Russia afraid it might look bad.

@uninspiredcup: the issue is not that he said these things, the issue is that he felt safe enough and secure in the knowledge that his words would be supported by Russians or at minimum tolerated.

We've been telling ourselves that Russia isn't the problem and that it is just Putin, but that's a lie; Russia and Putin are the problem.

We look back on the 1930's through WWII and cite the rise of Nazism and Adolf Hitler as cautionary tales without actually believing it can come true [again], and yet here we are staring an authoritarian with similar goals in the face, who has an entire country behind him that either supports him or is too indifferent/scared to oppose him.

I'm worried. More worried today than I was a week ago. Funny how a single broadcast can change that.

They really should. The trick here is having Putin save face. Dude either needs a legit "out" so he can pull back, or he needs to be removed from the board entirely. Both options seem near impossible.

Coup would be more likely, but it'd have to form in Russia by Russians; not sure the CIA could meddle with Russia like we did with other nations back in the day.

Sidenote: hopefully the US realizes we don't need such a large military-industrial complex now that we see what Russia is capable of, or rather, what they are not capable of.

Apparently, the scam of the "red scare" has been maintained well past the Cold War. Generals would often fluff up assessments of foreign militaries so they could ask for more funding. "But sir, Russia has 50,000 tanks! We only have 10,000!" and stuff like that.

Seriously, I think US could probably cut military spending by 15+% at this point. Let's invest in education, clean energy, and infrastructure. We have little to be scared of but ourselves at this point.

Shouldn't be worried about China's military either. They have numbers but so did the Russians apparently. ALso their equipment is dated like the Russians, though probably better maintained.

@mrbojangles25: Russia is what happens when Trump has unmitigated power. It's a right-wing paradise.

Which explains why MAGAS are so quick to jump on Putins cock.

Sadly, although some may call me a bigot.

Russian Culture has SERIOUS problems. And it is not just culture either. We westerners specifically set up an economic structure in the coutnry that stratifies people to the extent we see. With or without Putin, we will see strongmen with imperial desires rise up. Their disregard for human life is appalling and has been going on for all of their history.

Their horrible treatment of both women and LGBT folks is a sign of how messed up their culture is. And yeah, if you look at how quickly we imposed capitalism on them after the fall of the soviet union, you can see it was done for the rich, by the rich and specifically pushed to subvert democratic will.

Support for Putin went up after he annexed Crimea.

Thing about these polls though is that the only people who really use them are pro-Putin or just won't bother with them altogether, or (not be dumb) and support him.

The other tick-box might as well be "do you want to go missing?"

Look at the 700,000+ people who fled. Yea, the outside evil West bad, but please god, help us. Show kindness even though we'd happily level you given the opportunity.

A lot of those people jumping ship won't actually be against the war, but just starting to feel the actual reality of it closer than at a safe distance.

Russia even had to put out propaganda (which is hilariously bad) to try to deter people from leaving.

1. America full of Transgender people

2. America people must automatically get on their knees and beg black people for forgiveness

3. Vegans threaten Russians???

(bolded) Tell me you're weak without telling me you are weak. :P

As Maroxad has pointed out, their culture lets Putin do this without facing repercussions as long as it doesn't look like he is loosing to bad. The greatness to Russia depends on how large the country is, not how great its people are having it.

Careful of vegans, they eat a lot of spinach.

@Maroxad: I don't think anyone can call you a bigot and be taken serious. Maybe generalizing?

But at the same time, if it walks like a duck, and if it quacks like a duck...

I mean look at the US. A lot of people would generalize the people here as regressive, intolerant, and right-leaning and they'd be wrong because statistically it's a pretty small minority that actually feels that way. Polling shows that the vast majority of Americans (60+% on average) support moderate and even "liberal" policies such as universal healthcare, education reform, voting rights, and civil rights.

And yet you would not be wrong to generalize the overall climate of America as right-wing because this minority has a lot of power here. We've somehow lets ~20% of the country take control of an entire political party, essentially half the political power. Just look at some of the right-wing posters on here; there's maybe five of them, and yet they're so vocal you'd think they are half the posters on this forum.

Likewise, I am sure there are many good people in Russia, but if the overall climate of Russia is pro-invasion and indifferent to committing atrocities against Ukrainians, well...

@Maroxad: Don’t tell me he isn’t juicing as well. :P

I wouldnt be surprised if overall we have had more right wingers here than left wingers. It is just that the left wingers have a much higher retention rate. Not surprising considering how many of them have actively advocated for violence. Especially following a civil war.

I met decent people from russia, just as I met some truly obnoxious people. The same of course will apply to any nation, or US state.

Right now, a big thing with Russia is how plastic culture is, and we are influenced by those around us. The biggest voices are held by the oligarchs. But this doesnt mean doom and gloom for the Nation. Japan prior to their loss in WW2 is vastly different from the Japan we see today.

Popeye eats meat on rare occations :P Thimble Theatre predates Veganism by about 26 years.

You do realize Ukraine has been in a civil war for 8 years, don't you? You do understand Ukraine has also shelled cities in the Donbass region, right? You do know about 14,000 people have died in the conflict over those 8 years. There was an active ceasefire active in February that was violated by Ukraine when they started shelling eastern cities starting February 14th which lasted until February 22nd. Russia started their military operation on the 24th. Some of these shells landed on civilian homes and even schools. Ukraine had bombed schools prior to February 24th.

Nah, too much work, just pretend Ukraine was some united bastion of enlightenment and unity that some big meanie Bond villain decided was going to be the first step to world domination. This is the kind of global ignorance and unwillingness to consider the side you've been cheerleading like a puppet could have possibly done anything wrong leading up to it.

14,000 people dead before Russia ever stepped foot in Ukraine. That's what you're facing WWIII to protect.

@eoten: "14,000 people dead before Russia ever stepped foot in Ukraine. That's what you're facing WWIII to protect."

That's a lie Orc, Russian militias have been in Ukrainian territory since the beginning of the "civil" war.

@eoten: Of course you’re going to omit the bit about Russian soldiers fighting in that “civil war” as well as the vast amounts of weaponry Russia supplied to the separatists which escalated the situation?

If French people on the English coast - encouraged and weaponised by the French - took up arms and wanted a part of England to become French, you don’t think the UK military would react?

These weren’t Ukrainian civilians fighting Ukrainians, they were Russians who wanted Anschluss to Russia. It wasn’t a civil war, it was another Crimea land grab.

Tragic as 14000 people losing their lives is, how has Putin improved that figure? How many died in 2021 prior to the invasion, and how many died since? You honestly think Putin would stop at Donbas if he won the war….or hadn’t you heard of the Russian nationals in Moldova who want to be a part of Russia?

Ukraine was a Nuclear power before they entered an agreement with Russia to disarm on the guaranteed condition that Russia would protect them if attacked by a foreign power….no wonder there’s mistrust and hatred from the Ukrainian side.

Eastern Ukrainians have always identified themselves as being Russian, speak Russian, and even watch Russian television. That's no excuse for west Ukraine to shell cities and kill thousands of civilians because they decided to separate.

Simply put, the people there don't want Zelensky, and Ukraine has killed 14,000 people in a Civil War attempting to take it back.

That’s simply not true. In 2007, the Razumkov Centre asked “Would you like to have your region separated from Ukraine and join another state?”. In Eastern Ukraine, 78% of respondents disagreed. 10 percent agreed. In Feb 2014 that figure rose to 25% in a poll. In a 2001 census, the majority of Eastern Ukrainians are ethnic Ukrainians, while ethnic Russians form a minority.

Even if there were a majority, is that a justification to take up arms against a sovereign state? Again, and please answer…would Putin be justified in calling for parts of Moldovia to join Russia, given there is a large ethnic Russian population?

A political think-tank from Kiev made a poll that claimed the Russian speaking, Russian identifying people in Donbass don't want independence? Riiiiiiiiight. There is a majority though. There always has been. Conflict between Russian speaking and Ukrainian speaking groups in the region have been in conflict for decades. It wasn't until the coup in 2014 that overthrew the government and installed Zelensky as the leader did the people in that region break away. The people voted to break away, and Zelensky attacked.....

And completely ignorant of the ongoing conflict, you people actually believe Russia just suddenly decided to invade one day without any build up or escalation, claiming Putin just suddenly and confusingly "snapped" and decided to conquer Ukraine. That simply isn't true. There are many sides to these conflicts, you people refuse to listen to anyone who doesn't speak in favor of the one promoted to you in western media.

But hey, $65 billion dollars later and a pending, and almost unavoidable WWIII at this point, keep pretending Ukraine used to be some kind of united bastion of Democracy.

@eoten: No one is pretending that Ukraine is a bastion of democracy. However a Hybrid Regime like Ukraine is still far more democratic than an Authoritarian regime like Russia.

@eoten: "It wasn't until the coup in 2014 that overthrew the government and installed Zelensky as the leader..."

Just a clarification, as usual our local orc is here to spread Russian propaganda and disinformation. Zelensky wasn't "installed as leader in 2014". He was elected in 2019.

You people have consistently tried to push the narrative that Ukraine is innocent, Russia invading is unexpected, that Putin must have went insane, and have done a considerably amount of talking up of Zelensky. While it is true Russia may have capitalized on a bad situation, that situation wasn't bad because of Russia. Ukraine was never, nor was it ever going to be a united country that got along. The two sides don't even speak the same language.

And Ukraine is an authoritarian regime just the same. You further prove my point of talking up Ukraine and applying characteristics to them that don't actually apply. By most metrics, Ukraine has been considered one of the most corrupt countries in the world long before this has happened. Are you willing to get involved in a likely nuclear world war 3 to protect that corruption? Or is it going to take shells falling on Stockholm before you realize the gravity of what that means?

Also, electoral map regarding the 91 referendums for the independence of Ukraine.

Crimea only barely voted yes. Almost 50/50. All the other regions was pretty definitive.

Your lies are so easily fact checked.

People predicted a war in Ukraine the moment for a long time. Putin has been supporting insurgents in the regions he has been trying to annex for years. So this war was no surprise. That is why Ukraine made this meme a while back.

That is also why countries in both Northern and Eastern Europe have been cozying up to and joining NATO. Everyone knows Mordor was planning to take back the land they previously stole under the Soviet Union. And to avoid Russian Aggression, they joined NATO.

And you are continously forgetting the fact that Mordor, NOT ukraine is the aggressor here. And they most likely want the entire former Warsaw pact countries back under their influence. Unfortunately for them. The former warsaw pact countries want nothing to do with Russia. If it wasnt Ukraine, they would be investing in insurrgents somewhere else and try to annex that.

I am not going to give the right wing government here in sweden much credit, but one thing they are doing right is investing more in defending ukraine.

Edit: @kathaariancode Crap How did I miss that part?

@Maroxad: The BS density is too high. It's impossible to register every single lie.

@Maroxad said:

@eoten said:

@Maroxad said:

@eoten: No one is pretending that Ukraine is a bastion of democracy. However a Hybrid Regime like Ukraine is still far more democratic than an Authoritarian regime like Russia.

You people have consistently tried to push the narrative that Ukraine is innocent, Russia invading is unexpected, that Putin must have went insane, and have done a considerably amount of talking up of Zelensky. While it is true Russia may have capitalized on a bad situation, that situation wasn't bad because of Russia. Ukraine was never, nor was it ever going to be a united country that got along. The two sides don't even speak the same language.

And Ukraine is an authoritarian regime just the same. You further prove my point of talking up Ukraine and applying characteristics to them that don't actually apply. By most metrics, Ukraine has been considered one of the most corrupt countries in the world long before this has happened. Are you willing to get involved in a likely nuclear world war 3 to protect that corruption? Or is it going to take shells falling on Stockholm before you realize the gravity of what that means?

Your lies are so easily fact checked.

People predicted a war in Ukraine the moment for a long time. Putin has been supporting insurgents in the regions he has been trying to annex for years. So this war was no surprise. That is why Ukraine made this meme a while back.

That is also why countries in both Northern and Eastern Europe have been cozying up to and joining NATO. Everyone knows Mordor was planning to take back the land they previously stole under the Soviet Union. And to avoid Russian Aggression, they joined NATO.

And you are continously forgetting the fact that Mordor, NOT ukraine is the aggressor here. And they most likely want the entire former Warsaw pact countries back under their influence. Unfortunately for them. The former warsaw pact countries want nothing to do with Russia. If it wasnt Ukraine, they would be investing in insurrgents somewhere else and try to annex that.

I am not going to give the right wing government here in sweden much credit, but one thing they are doing right is investing more in defending ukraine.

Edit: @kathaariancode Crap How did I miss that part?

You didn't fact check a fucking thing, you posted a graphic that shows what you wanted it to. "Democracy index" wtf? That's comical. Many of those countries haven't been "cozying" up to NATO. When Ukraine got a leader that was against joining NATO, conveniently there was a coup to overthrow him and he was replaced with someone "cozying up to NATO." And all signs point to NATO involvement in that coup. This is literally the same bullcrap people were saying when the US invaded Iraq. We're bombing the shit out of them to spread freedom and democracy whether they like it or not.

The more you talk, the more you people start sounding like neocons from the Bush era.

@eoten: “ And completely ignorant of the ongoing conflict, you people actually believe Russia just suddenly decided to invade one day without any build up or escalation, claiming Putin just suddenly and confusingly "snapped" and decided to conquer Ukraine. That simply isn't true. There are many sides to these conflicts, you people refuse to listen to anyone who doesn't speak in favor of the one promoted to you in western media.”

Who do you think you’re talking to? I’m the one who started the thread, put Putin’s case forward and asked “Did the West handle the post Cold War period badly?”.

I’ve got numerous Russian and Ukrainian friends, and I’ve listened to both sides of the argument. I’m not ignorant of the history at all, so do me a favour and stop putting words in my mouth.

I’m well aware that propaganda from both sides is unreliable at best, and it’s very hard to put a concrete finger of blame on one moment in history between these two nations, but what is undeniable is that Russia interfered in a sovereign state’s affairs and encouraged a very vocal minority of people in Ukraine in their call for Anschluss.

What is also undeniable is that Russia has invaded Ukraine, and put Europe and indeed the world on the precipice of a wider conflict. Everything else is whataboutisms and the aforementioned propaganda.

Ukraine's democracy is not perfect. But it is a democracy. It's flaws does not take away from that fact. Elections in Ukraine are actually free and fair. And there is no strong man looking to dissolve councils because they are not Zelensky's lapdog.

And the coup happened because of Viktor Yanukovych's opposition to the EU, not NATO. This is another lie from you that is easily fact checked, by merely knowing recent european history.

Democracy Index is one of the most widely used metrics to determine how strong a country's democratic institutions are.

True, the guy even got caught lying, and still continues repeating the same lie.

That's the GOP playbook. Get caught lying, double down.

Zelensky became president in 2019. Not 2014. Research, mate

It is complete coincidence that 80 to 90 % of Ukraine's natural gas and oil reserves are located in eastern Ukraine (inc. Donbas) and in the Black Sea (around Crimea), areas where most of Russian focus has been? That has nothing do with this war?

@Icarian: Obviously the CIA, Soros and the Clintons put the reserves there to tease Russia. Also and more importantly, Hunter's laptop!

For someone who claims that he has done actual research while we somehow remain ignorant. 3073n sure continues to spout hilariously stupid comments like Zelenski becoming president after 2014. And even miscited the reason. It was the EU, not NATO, that the Prime Minister was averse to.

I hope this awful war can end soon. And Russia be given the post WW2 Japanese treatment, where their constitution was rewriten and their culture pacified.

Eoten, thank you for replying to an eight month old comment. What else? You're gonna dig up 5 year old comment and reply to it as well? That's all I'm saying to an orc-shill.

Zelensky being selected after a coup does not nullify the coup or suddenly make the process that made it possible for him to be elected "democratic." Ukraine elected someone who wasn't "cozying up to NATO" and NATO vetoed. That isn't democracy.

Zelensky only got into power 4 years later, and Zelensky wasnt even in the same party as the previous President. In fact, he wasnt even in a party at all, he ran as an independant.

Unlike the fraudulent elections that Putin held in the 4 regions in Ukraine. International observers noted that the Ukrainian elections where Zelensky won were free and fair.

You have no ground to stand on. But answer me, Is trolling online lucrative? Does Putin pay you well?

With Russia targeting electrical plants to hurt civilians in winter and straight up abducting Ukranian children to brainwash them, how can some nations still defend this awful behaviour?

Who out there in Russia even believes this war is fought for the good?

The US/NATO has been caught meddling in Ukrainian politics, and influencing their elections. They are tied with the coup of 2014, as evidence in leaked phone calls and John McCain meeting with people who carried it out just prior to them doing so. Russia has been accused of the same. So explain to me how one side is right, the other side is wrong, and why WWIII is worth defending either?

Yes please explain why Russia attacking and destroying Ukraine is wrong and why helping Ukraine to defend it self is right?!🤣

The fearmongering over a World War 3 is massively overblown.

Russia are getting absolutely curbstomped by 2% of Nato's yearly military expenditure. By obsolete equipment that has long been superceded by better tech. What chance would Russia have if they went to war with NATO?

There wouldn't be a WW3. There would be an absolute curbstomp. The only country that could pose any threat would be China, but even China's military is vastly inexperienced. And most likely wont pose much of a threat. China's strength does not come from hard power, but rather soft power.

Edit: And Iran wouldnt pose much of a threat either. They have far bigger domestic issues to worry about than geopolitics atm. Joining Russia would be a death sentence to the Islamic Republic. As it would be all the revolutionists need to gain the upper hand. At which point, Persia, would most likely ally themselves with NATO.

@Maroxad: The MAGAs, being the puppet for Russian propaganda that they are, have been using the WW3 argument since Hilary Clinton's days as a way to pressure the US into inaction towards Russian imperialism.

We have only said it is better than Russia.

NATO, Ukraine not being a real country, Nazis, The Woke, Transfolks, Liberalism and now Satanism?

Did I miss anything? Will they ever run out of excuses?

@Maroxad: I've read that they are now trying to frame it in a religious way that can also appeal to Muslims. Such as the Afghans they've been courting.

Reading about this in history will be interesting.

@Maroxad said:

NATO, Ukraine not being a real country, Nazis, The Woke, Transfolks, Liberalism and now Satanism?

Did I miss anything? Will they ever run out of excuses?

Not sure about Afghans. But a Chechnian leader explicitly called the war in Ukraine a Big Jihad.

Like a flag in the wind. Yesteryday Putin was about to overrun Finland and Sweden, today it's just overblown fearmongering... What's it going to be tomorrow i wonder.

How on earth can Ruzzia be this incompetent?

No one said they were going to overrun, they were however, threatening and perhaps plotting to invade, even mobilizing troops to finland's borders. But Russia are too weak to overrun Sweden and Finland.