War in Ukraine. Did the West handle the post Cold War era badly?

Arming civilians works quite well actually. That means the Ukrainian infantry went from what? under 100,000 to now several millions? History is full of examples of armed civilians fighting off well funded, well organized militaries. Some people are merely blinded by the hoplophobia spread n western countries.

The president of ukraine is also jewish. Hard to really believe he is a neo-nazi.

I think Putin does what most politicians do. Lies constantly. Not because he actually believes it, but because if there are enough people in his country that does, it makes it easier to do what he wants.

As mentioned in the other thread (or this can't remember) think this is def something Putin wasn't expecting. They are claiming the delay was for diplomatic reasons, obv no one fucking buys that. They are behind on their phases and having to deal with logistics. Ukraine didn't throw pettles at them with open arms, they're in the streets joining up on mass, being handed AK47's and making molotovs.

Should they obliterate Kiev, far from having them kneel, it will probably be seen as an act of martyrdom further fanning the flames. On top of the world at large already pissed off and actively attempting to help them while punishing Russia itself.

Here we are raised very well on the story of the story Wars of Scottish Independence, it's very interesting seeing what amounts to a modern day version of this, or at least key aspects of it being repeated. If Volodymyr Zelenskyy is killed he will be seen as their William Wallace.

It's very interesting as well seeing the difference in how Volodymyr Zelenskyy has presented himself.

Putin has been on state TV in huge sterile looking rooms sitting 12 feet from folk coming across as robotic, while Zelenskyy has been ground level, dressed informal using social media style documentation, something people relate to far better. Far from being a druggy Nazi (Zelenskyy is Jewish so this is a lulzy thing to say) he's inadvertently created a folk hero.

Is the Russian army well funded?

For sure. Compared to Ukraine yea. They are one of the most powerful armies in the world with some deadliest weapons. If they wanted to they could just level those towns and cities to the ground. Be over in a flash. And using them will be costing Russia a (hu hu) bomb.

The problem they have atm though, in ye old times Japanese castle were designed to deliberately allow enemies in to be picked off, it could turn a significantly weaker army into a submachine gun shooting ducks.

Instead of being praised as Russian savours, or rolling over, practically every Ukraine town or city they are entering is basically that, one huge kill box where it's no longer army vs army but guerilla warfare where the population itself is out to get them from every nook and cranny, and compared to Russia, they will know the topography like the back of their hand.

Even if they take this country, it's just going to be years and years of this type of shit while their money is bled.

The Russians themselves (from reports of ones captured) seem pretty fucking clueless why they are there.

Putin seems dog determined, but kinda baffled what good outcome he can expect from this. Just lotta people dead, resources tossed in a fire, and practically the entire world against them.

Logistic problems as well. Fuel. Food. Ammo. All that shit.

We're already seeing clips of Russians looting supermarkets. And stealing resources while only further piss off the population.

And of top of that, they have been practically giving Ukraine their own weapons to be recycled, on top of a shit ton of incoming support from multiple countries.

People are worried atm Russia will get frustrated and just start levelling shit or other worse weapons.

@uninspiredcup: No they aren't. They're running out of gas and begging for food.

Doesn't help that pre-invasion some Russian soldiers stole some of those supplies and sold them on black market.

https://twitter.com/Der_Parrot/status/1497735486554746880

Low key threatened WW3 again.

https://www.axios.com/putin-nuclear-forces-9d1a2823-9512-4ab3-89f2-118ee37e0970.html

Didn't quote anything, no idea what you're arguing.

Makes sense with the interrogations.

A lot of the Russian soldiers captures look like they are barely out of their 20s and almost clueless why they are there.

While they are having protests ( broken up by police) the same seems true of a portion of the populace due to well oiled propaganda.

Very impressive display from this Dmytro Kuleba fellow.

Wish my politicians had this much dignity. Stuck with Boris who'd probably get confused quarter of the way in.

What was referring to above in regard to their weapon, it's in Ukraine atm though thankfully not used. Flatten a city block by block.

He also has weapons like a 203 mm howitzer which can also be used for smaller nuclear weapons. But unless he's completely off his tits likelihood of using it is nill.

I see that Putin really did expect everything to go as smoothly as in the case of Georgia or Crimea. Wonder what the oligarchs are thinking about all of this, can't be that all of his clique is actually that much afraid of him and are willing to destroy their political and economical stance for Putin. Unless, they think that suddenly the sanctions will be lifted (or Xi will help them)

Well, he may actually be "completely off his tits." Something's going on with Putin that isn't immediately apparent.

I'm listening to the video. 46 fighter jets, 26 helicopters, 146 tanks, 706 armored vehicles, 49 canons, SAMs, some drones, 2 boats, 4,300 Russian troops killed... if this is accurate, Russia just got the shit kicked out of them.

@eoten: maybe accurate, maybe propaganda, maybe a bit of both to boost morale. One thing's for sure that a part of Russian soldiers, who recently just stopped drinking their mothers' milk so to speak, did not even want to be there in the first place. Specially, if historically, Ukraine and Russia (excluding that period of Stalinism) people were like brothers and sisters to each other. Russian generals just sends their younglings to a meat grinder, because there are tens of thousands of conscripts with brain-washed heads.

I don’t trust statistics of either side….if those figures were true, we’d see a LOT more video of it happening. Practically everybody owns a 4K camera these days.

Sincerely doubt it's that high. Russia is definitely taking a beating, but those numbers within a few days are insane. That is WWII scale of death and destruction, and we would be seeing some video of it.

So I am hearing both things, hence why I asked. I always had the impression it was well funded, however some stories from equipment left by Russian army or destroyed by the Ukrainian army is that it the vehicles smell like homeless people were living in them. Maybe just deodorant and a shower is luxury the Russian army doesn't provide...

Yeah, there is a lot of misinformation out there. I think Russia is definitely having a harder time than they anticipated, but I dont trust any statistics coming from either side right now.

Just wish this was over to be honest. Can't believe we have war in europe in the 21st century. Humanity really sucks.

This picture is making it's round. Supposedly captured soldiers. Some sources say they are Ukrainian soldiers. Others say are Russian saboteurs in Ukrainian uniforms. I say they're not captured soldiers at all because buddy on the far left still has his weapon.

Regardless what the numbers are, imo what the Ukraine done here (many of them not even trained) is nothing short of incredible. Not just the combat but specifically their statecraft,.

Part of it as well is Russia holding back and basically being comparatively, stupid.

For a world power with a dude who can press a button to effectively end civilization, they sure managed to come across as dunces.

Can't post clips as it features NSFW (i.e. dead people) , but if you want to see clips try - @Osinttechnical @ArmedForcesUkr @RealestWar etc..

They def have been taking out Russian soldiers as well as armour. Including helicopters.

An expert fellow Sir Richard Barron done breakdown.

@vl4d_l3nin said:

This picture is making it's round. Supposedly captured soldiers. Some sources say they are Ukrainian soldiers. Others say are Russian saboteurs in Ukrainian uniforms. I say they're not captured soldiers at all because buddy on the far left still has his weapon.

Interesting, that weapon is a bullpup rifle is called a Malyuk, made by Ukraine. It's a fairly new design, and likely only issues to Ukrainian special forces. Not something that would be getting handed around to civilians. I am not sure what the purpose of this picture is supposed to be, but those aren't Russian, and I doubt the are saboteurs in Ukrainian uniforms either, and if he still has a rifle, he's probably not captured. A poorly attempted propaganda photo maybe?

@eoten: Doubt it's propaganda as the dude standing up is wearing the same uniform. Taken out of context I can believe.

According to their Ministry of Defence, the other day some Russian insurgents were able to hihack their milatary convoy and clothing. Apparently, in the photo it is the supposed hijackers detained.

This isn't the first time Russia has invaded, occupied, and recognized regions that nobody else will. Yes, NATO should have kept its word. However, that does not justify belligerence toward Russia's neighbors. I do wonder how many of those countries that joined would really be independent at this point had they not joined NATO. Putin is a man who believes the fall of the Soviet Union to be one of the great tragedies of the 20th century. His affinity for establishing puppets, like the ones in Belarus, South Ossetia, Donetsk, and Luhansk shows me that he's more interested in establishing a new psudo-Soviet Union than winning hearts and minds.

No doubt Putin has the weaponry to level Ukraine, but logistically he gains nothing by doing that. He wants to control Ukraine, not level it. All that would do is give him a huge mess to clean up with nothing to show for it...

think he made a really bad call, believed his own propaganda that Russia would be welcomed easily. His support in east Ukraine maybe isn't as strong as he originally thought? Many in Ukraine are willing to die for it. Putin made a mistake. Morale is higher with Ukraine because they have something real to fight for (sovereignty) and Russia really doesn't. What a reckless move by Russia and Putin...

I cant imagine the civillians in Russia are happy about this, his own people are probably really pissed off. Miscalculation by Russia government. Looses economic support around the globe, pisses off his populace, looses tons of money fighting a gorilla warfare battle in country that ultimately wont give him much of anything. Why do this? Only thing I can think of he's getting old and really wants to see the old soviet union come back before he's dead.. pride maybe??

My worry is that he realizes he's backed into a corner and feels he has nothing else to lose and starts lashing out bringing the whole world into it because he's ******* himself and his country.

@sargentd: even if (when) Russia in the end takes Ukraine. What then? Does he really now think that Ukrainians won't be participating in partisan warfare for years? This will be Chechnya number two for Putin. For fucks sake, even we in Lithuanian for 9 or so years participated in partisan warfare against USSR without external aid until our partisans were eventually betrayed. On top of that, Russia will still be isolated from the major part of the world. Putin has really gone mad in his old age.

I'm not so sure he even takes it at this point, at the start I would have agreed but not so sure now. If it turns into partisan warfare/guerilla warfare that doesn't end for years, did he really take it? If the people there refuse to listen to Russia its a waste of time. He's just draining money, resources, and lives. It might be possible he pulls out. Which is something I originally wasn't thinking possible, but maybe. but yeah guy is off the rails heavily.

I read in the news here that there are long queues forming outsides banks and ATMs.

Russia has a good card with their gas supply to Europe, however I don't think they do much else trade with EU.

It's too bad the US is no longer energy independent, and decided to shut down oil supplies and refineries we could have used to produce fuels to sell to Europe as an alternative to buying from Russia, allowing them to be independent from Russia, harming the value of Russian exports, and keeping them under better control. Seems those in power here want Russia to keep that card.

If you want to know how the US deals with them as a hostile nation, that's how. We offset their exports on the global market and bankrupt them.

70 Chechens removed along with their rockets. Def don't want these fellows engaging with local population.

Well, when Russia starts coming to the realization that they are going to lose they'll be faced with two decisions. They can either accept the loss, which will be accompanied by a huge loss of influence and the ability to threaten and bully other nation, which Russia needs to maintain any illusion of power, or they start using some of those bigger weapons with the intention of leveling cities and killing millions in order to maintain their image of military strength. Russia cannot afford the first option, and the second option would be a point where Russia no longer gives a shit, and other countries that border them will be hit as well.

Russia hasn't even begun a real assault yet. Ukraine still has electricity. They haven't gone after anything that will really hurt Ukraine. The Russians don't want to destroy the country, but to install a pro-Russia government.

Yes and no.

Their original assault was a blitzkrieg, rush in, lightning fast take-over. The other forces most likely designed to hold it after being "liberated". This didn't happen, they were clowned.

Now they have obv changed their tactics, and as mentioned by a few above, alongside a video explicitly stating it, they can basically just say "**** it", and start committing mass murder levelling cities using heavier weapons.

Which, as we've all said would not serve them at all. And all but solidify future resistance for years to come (which at this point is probably a given).

Putin is being stupid. Pretty sure even he knows it at this point assuming he has any marbles left.

If Putin had just annexed the separatist areas he would have been done with this already and the international community would have closed Its eyes. This is such an epic fail.

I was not expecting to see such brutal sanctions from the international community. That's was a pleasant surprise.

If they realize they're not going to achieve what they want in Ukraine, they may have to just say "**** it" in order not to lose power and influence elsewhere. Russia threatens a lot of countries, more of them may start telling Russia to **** off if they fail in Ukraine. It may come to a point where leveling Ukraine serves them the most out of this corner they've backed themselves into.

“Amateurs talk about strategy and tactics. Professionals talk about logistics and sustainability in warfare”

Sums up this war really well. Funny because even a complete layperson like myself was bringing up issues with logistics even before the invasion started. How could Russia's command be this incompetent?

First reason is probably Putin. I'm sure there were few generals who warned him. Back in 39 there was one general who warned Stalin and rest of the Soviet leadership of the risks of attacking Finland. Can't remember his name. I think he simply asked "Have you looked at the map of Finland?" He was laughed at. Hitler as well stopped listening his generals.

Second reason is that they may have believed their own propaganda and thought that this would be over in a day or two. No need to worry about supply and they can just get what they need from Ukrainians.

My head cannon is waiting for the news about uprising in Chechen region again.

The ruble is now an NFT.

Ubisoft must be excited.

@ghost_of_phobos: Absolutely right. I actually have some sympathy for Putin’s points and his arguments about NATO bases expanding and the issue of 7.5 million Russians living in the Ukraine, but he has actually made those problems worse; Finland and Sweden were firmly against joining NATO before the invasion, not so much now, and Ukrainians will never accept the Russian population in their country now.

Had he annexed the Donbas region, he would have faced sanctions and a lot of hatred, but it would have been a relatively achievable object.

I'm not so sure about that. Millions of Ukrainian speakers also live in Russia. It's all rather complicated, more because Ukraine was part of Russia for over 3 centuries during the reign of the Czar's and for over 70 years as part of the Soviet Union. I'm sure many older Ukrainians (perhaps even younger ones too) understand Russian. And their historical and cultural association goes back much further than that.

This is why despite what it looks like on the ground, thus far the assault has been quite tame. The power grid appears undamaged as do many other community facilities. I think everyone is a looking at events in Chechnya and are concerned that the Russians may go on to do the same in Ukraine if they get bogged down and the battle turns into an insurgency.

There is a big difference though as historically, Ukraine, Belarus and Russia all see the original Kievan Rus' as their cultural ancestors. Indeed, Belarus and Russia take their names from the 'Rus'. One of their most famous Kings, Vladimir the Great, Prince of Novgorod, Grand Prince of Kiev (Kyiv) and Ruler of the Kievan Rus brought Christianity and is thus venerated throughout the eastern orthodox church with monuments and statues to him located in both Russia and Ukraine.

In hindsight, Russia would have been democratic or at least as much as it can be, if instead of being rewarded with Eastern Europe for helping during WWII, it would have received the same sanctions in Tribunals and underwent the same guilt processes as post-Nazi Germany... but then, all countries should have been tried for crimes against humanity...

Perhaps Russia was over rated as a military power, Russia is having internal economic problems, and Putin lost his mind. Or all three.

@Bond007uk: Russia attacked their home. That speaks volumes to people.

It is all 3.

Russia had a lot of firepower left over from the soviet era. But like most fascists, Putin Surrounded himself by yes men providing personal comfort, rather than people who knew what they were talking about. For all the arms Russia has, they do not have the expertise on how to use it.

Modern Wars are won with supply chains and logistics. A unit without fuel, nourishment and ammo, is a sitting duck. Morale, and good rest are also important.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10559373/Ukraine-war-Kyiv-survives-night-Russians-suffer-losses.html

Huge explosions rock Kyiv hours after dozens were killed in Russian CLUSTER BOMBS attack on Kharkiv

• Russians are now using banned cluster munitions against civilian areas, experts and activists have warned
• Attack with Grad rockets on shopping centre in Kharkiv today killed dozens and wounded hundreds, Kyiv said
• Campaign group Amnesty said similar bombs were used to destroy a school in Okhtyrka, leaving three dead
• If Russia is confirmed to have used the weapons it could constitute a war crime, amid warnings that Putin is likely to start resorting to using heavier weapons to turn the tide of war