Kobe/Lebron/Wade

"Steven A Smith says he believes it is between James and Wade and Kobe a distant third, Skip Bayless thinks wades #1. A sportswriter for MSNBC said Wades the most valuable player on the planet........so whats your point?"

My point or goal with quoting what Bucher saidwas to spur the debate on, period. I was not using his words to support my case against Wade or for Kobe. I've already said, imo, a case can be made that Wade is playing the best all-round ball right now. My whole problem with the NBA's MVP selection is that it's not consistent. One time period it's "best player on the best or at leasta "contending" team", another time its "best player in the game".

Let's say Wade was doing what he's doing now (but his team wasn't as good)back when Nash was having his 2 great seasons and won 2 straight MVP's, would Nash have gotten it over Wade? If so I think Wade would be getting robbed, as I believe Kobe did. Again it's a personal opinion, but I think MVP of the whole LEAGUE should go to it's best player or else you end up having guys of lesser talent winning it because of other things be sides pure all-round B-ball talent.

I think a guy like Nash has to be in a system favorable to his style of play, with role players to match in order to excel at the main thing he does great, assist. If Nash was under a controlled offense like the triangle and had Smush and Kwame to pass to he wouldn't look as good. So his excellence is more dependant on what the coach or GM does. I think guys like Wade, Kobe and Lebron would be great in any system and perform at higher levels and in more areas than others. Just me, but I want that guy to be MVP of the league. Looks like you feel Wade is playing the best butis not getting his due because his team is not as good as Lebron's or Kobe's. That's the same way I felt concerning Kobe, when Nash won 2 MVP awards.IMO, MVP is not a "team" award its a player award, the best.

Obviously MVP should go the player who is... wait for it ... the most valuable to their team! Take Lebron off the Cavs and they'd be worse, but they still have the likes of Mo Williams, Big Z, Szczerbiack and West. Certainly not amazing players, but I think they would still be a playoff team. Take Kobe off the Lakers and they still have Odom, Gasol, Bynum, and lots of other role players.

Now take Wade off the Heat and we may be talking about one of the worst teams in the league. The team would have Beasley and that's about it. O'neal is a shell of his former self, Haslem is at most solid, and I believe Chalmers and Cook would not be anywhere close to being as decent as they are without Wade. Not only has Wade made this team respectable and competitive, but he's put them in position to possibly steal the 4th seed in the Eastern Conference. Lebron and Kobe can afford to have bad nights because their teams are so good. Wade has to put up 40 points a night JUST TO KNUDGE HIS TEAM TO VICTORY!!! And it's not like he's only scoring. He's dishing out assists, grabbing a fair amount of boards, blocks, steals, 3s at the buzzer, you name it. If Wade is scoring less than 20-25 a game, that's almost a guaranteed loss for the Heat. Hell, if Wade has a "normal" night it'll be tough goings for the Heat.

In no way am I saying Wade is the better of the 3. I think he's 3rd in that list, but it's pretty apparent he is the MVP of the league this year. I don't think MVP should entail best player. It should go to the guy who means the most to his team. It's the name of the damned award. Feel free to mock me or whatever, but I think I provided pretty a solid argument for Wade.

They are all good offensively, but Kobe is the only one of those three who is a shut down defender.

No mocking, good debate is....good.

Yes "Most valuable Player" is the name of the award, but it doesn't specify most valuable to "his team". "Team" doesn't appear in the award. So its an assumption to say it means "most valuable to his team". It could be the player with a collection of skills that coaches consider most valuable, it could be most valuable player to the league over-all( the one with the combination of over-all great skills, charisma...etc. that make the league interesting and brings in money.....etc. If the league had been consistent in giving it to the player who added the most value to his team, then I would agree.

Plus in order to determine who adds the most value to their team you have to "imagine"other playersbeing off their team and assume what the result would be...too much assuming for me. I'd rather look at his stats, consistency of play, over-all skill set...etc. and determine who's the best or most valuable.We do agree that at this point that I would not put up a fight against Wade getting it, just think if he does Kobe should have when Nash did.

Note: to NBA: Clearly define MVP or come up with the BNP (Best NBA Player)

"Steven A Smith says he believes it is between James and Wade and Kobe a distant third, Skip Bayless thinks wades #1. A sportswriter for MSNBC said Wades the most valuable player on the planet........so whats your point?"

My point or goal with quoting what Bucher saidwas to spur the debate on, period. I was not using his words to support my case against Wade or for Kobe. I've already said, imo, a case can be made that Wade is playing the best all-round ball right now. My whole problem with the NBA's MVP selection is that it's not consistent. One time period it's "best player on the best or at leasta "contending" team", another time its "best player in the game".

Let's say Wade was doing what he's doing now (but his team wasn't as good)back when Nash was having his 2 great seasons and won 2 straight MVP's, would Nash have gotten it over Wade? If so I think Wade would be getting robbed, as I believe Kobe did. Again it's a personal opinion, but I think MVP of the whole LEAGUE should go to it's best player or else you end up having guys of lesser talent winning it because of other things be sides pure all-round B-ball talent.

I think a guy like Nash has to be in a system favorable to his style of play, with role players to match in order to excel at the main thing he does great, assist. If Nash was under a controlled offense like the triangle and had Smush and Kwame to pass to he wouldn't look as good. So his excellence is more dependant on what the coach or GM does. I think guys like Wade, Kobe and Lebron would be great in any system and perform at higher levels and in more areas than others. Just me, but I want that guy to be MVP of the league. Looks like you feel Wade is playing the best butis not getting his due because his team is not as good as Lebron's or Kobe's. That's the same way I felt concerning Kobe, when Nash won 2 MVP awards.IMO, MVP is not a "team" award its a player award, the best.

mont13

They are all good offensively, but Kobe is the only one of those three who is a shut down defender.

DaBrainz

If I could put it bluntly and speak as more of a fan of b' ball talent I'd say: Wade is straight killin' boys! I think he is every bit as good as Lebron, just in somewhat different ways. I think Wade is playing better than Kobe this year, but would not say Wade or Lebronare betterbecause Kobe has been there/done that and in "bigger" ways.

I'll have to see what Wade and Lebron are doing over the next few years. Kobe's in his 13th year and still considered one of the best. I think he still can "go off" any time but has toned his game down to try to fit the system and get another ring.

If I could put it bluntly and speak as more of a fan of b' ball talent I'd say: Wade is straight killin' boys! I think he is every bit as good as Lebron, just in somewhat different ways. I think Wade is playing better than Kobe this year, but would not say Wade or Lebronare betterbecause Kobe has been there/done that and in "bigger" ways.

I'll have to see what Wade and Lebron are doing over the next few years. Kobe's in his 13th year and still considered one of the best. I think he still can "go off" any time but has toned his game down to try to fit the system and get another ring.

[QUOTE="DaBrainz"]

They are all good offensively, but Kobe is the only one of those three who is a shut down defender.

nikolai37

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about the entire season, not just 2 head to head games. If you look at whoever Kobe is defending, their #'s are almost always lower than the average. The same cannot be said for Wade.

Obviously MVP should go the player who is... wait for it ... the most valuable to their team! Take Lebron off the Cavs and they'd be worse, but they still have the likes of Mo Williams, Big Z, Szczerbiack and West. Certainly not amazing players, but I think they would still be a playoff team. Take Kobe off the Lakers and they still have Odom, Gasol, Bynum, and lots of other role players.

Now take Wade off the Heat and we may be talking about one of the worst teams in the league.

yokofox33

Nah, this doesn't work. Is not LeBron's or Kobe's fault that Wade has such a crappy team around him. Its better if we ask how would a team perform if we substituted one of the players in this discussion: ex. Would the Heat be as good with Kobe?

[QUOTE="nikolai37"]

[QUOTE="DaBrainz"]

They are all good offensively, but Kobe is the only one of those three who is a shut down defender.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about the entire season, not just 2 head to head games. If you look at whoever Kobe is defending, their #'s are almost always lower than the average. The same cannot be said for Wade.

[QUOTE="mont13"]

If I could put it bluntly and speak as more of a fan of b' ball talent I'd say: Wade is straight killin' boys! I think he is every bit as good as Lebron, just in somewhat different ways. I think Wade is playing better than Kobe this year, but would not say Wade or Lebronare betterbecause Kobe has been there/done that and in "bigger" ways.

I'll have to see what Wade and Lebron are doing over the next few years. Kobe's in his 13th year and still considered one of the best. I think he still can "go off" any time but has toned his game down to try to fit the system and get another ring.

nikolai37

Ok, if your going to hold me to the "letter" then "anytime" is not the word. Itslike the saying "never say never".But......., gotta go, have to finish when I get home...but I will finish.

[QUOTE="DaBrainz"]

[QUOTE="nikolai37"] Wade had 35 points(13-25FG's) with 2 blocks, 3 steals, 6 boards, 3 assists to Kobe's 28 points(12-24FG's),0 steals, 0 blocks, 3 assists and 3 boards when the Heat beat the lakers this season. In the game the Lakers won Wade had 27 points(10-22), 2 blocks, 2 steals, 9 assists, and 5 boards to Kobe's 19 points(5-14 shooting), 0 blocks, 0 steals, 7 assists, and 2 rebounds. Wade isbasically anungaurdable player in the game, he's also doubled and tripled on every night. Wade is also having a great defensive year much like Michael Jordan would have with a large number of steals and blocks from the 2-gaurd position.

nikolai37

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about the entire season, not just 2 head to head games. If you look at whoever Kobe is defending, their #'s are almost always lower than the average. The same cannot be said for Wade.

I think the same can be said about you and Wade.

BTW, I'm not a Kobe fan, I just recognize that he is better than Wade and LJ. If it makes you feel any better I think Wade is better than LJ.

[QUOTE="nikolai37"][QUOTE="DaBrainz"]

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about the entire season, not just 2 head to head games. If you look at whoever Kobe is defending, their #'s are almost always lower than the average. The same cannot be said for Wade.

DaBrainz

I think the same can be said about you and Wade.

BTW, I'm not a Kobe fan, I just recognize that he is better than Wade and LJ. If it makes you feel any better I think Wade is better than LJ.

If it makes you feel better Wade, and probably LeBron as well,are both better than Kobe. I would only maybe take Kobe over LeBron because of his experience in big games and probably wanting him to take a last shot instead of LeBron, but I would lose a lot throughout the game with that choice.

Kobe = Lebron >> Wade. Just one look at the standings and you get the picture. The Lakers and Cavs are tied for the best record in the NBA. The Heat are very far behind.

Kobe, by far has the best supporting cast with Gasol and Bynum, but even without them he was able to lead the team to the playoffs consistantly in a tough western conference, almost knowcking out the Suns once. He's the best defender of the three.

The Cavs are a very mediocre team, with Willians being the only above-average player. Lebron is by far the most versatile player of the three.

Although a premier player in this league, Wade has a long way to go before he should be used in a conversation with Lebron and Kobe.

Kobe = Lebron >> Wade. Just one look at the standings and you get the picture. The Lakers and Cavs are tied for the best record in the NBA. The Heat are very far behind.

Kobe, by far has the best supporting cast with Gasol and Bynum, but even without them he was able to lead the team to the playoffs consistantly in a tough western conference, almost knowcking out the Suns once. He's the best defender of the three.

The Cavs are a very mediocre team, with Willians being the only above-average player. Lebron is by far the most versatile player of the three.

Although a premier player in this league, Wade has a long way to go before he should be used in a conversation with Lebron and KobeUssjTrunks

And neither James nor Bryant have done what Wade did in the NBA Finals 3 years ago, and probably cant. Wade was also the best player on the court when he was teamed with both during the olympics. You can say Kobes a better defender, but nobody is as active as Wade on defense, he's 6-4 and gets a lot of blocks, which are a big part of defense, along with lots of steals, another big part of defense. To say Wade has a long way to go to be compared to bryant or james, especially James, when he is playing like he is right nowand already has a Ring and a finals MVP is utterly ridiculous.

"Thats one way to spin it." Spin what? I gave my opinion and analysis. To clarify, I think if Phil Jackson went to Kobe and said "forget the triangle, we need you to go off" I think kobe can still do it.

"All you have to do is look at Monday where Kobe played 39 minutes and shot 11 for 29 from the field while the Lakers got spanked by the Blazers."You can tell very little from 1 game.

"In the biggest game of the Lakers season last year in the last game of the Finals the Lakers got embarrassed and Kobe played terrible." The Lakers played against the best team defense in years, achored by the defensive player of the year, geared to stop the Lakers best player. Also Kobe led a young, inexperienced, softteam to the finals against against a tough, defensive minded team led by not 1, not 2 but 3 hungry, veteran, all-star players who hadn't won a ring and were geeked up to finally get it done and not be labeled great players who never won the big one. That along with being at home is why the Lakers lost so badly against Boston, not because of some failure of Kobe. Kobe should have been given big time credit for getting them that far.Wade, Lebron, MJ or whoever given those circumstances would have done no better.

"I think Kobe is a player who when he is hot can occasionally take over a game. But I also think Wade and even LeBron sometimes can do that too" What an understatement for all 3.When any of them are "hot" most likely the game will be taken over.

"Neither Kobe nor Lebron could have done what Wade did in the finals..."

Against the Mavs Kobe and Lebron could have done what Wade did.

"Neither Kobe nor Lebron could have done what Wade did in the finals..."

Against the Mavs Kobe and Lebron could have done what Wade did.

"Thats one way to spin it." Spin what? I gave my opinion and analysis. To clarify, I think if Phil Jackson went to Kobe and said "forget the triangle, we need you to go off" I think kobe can still do it.

"All you have to do is look at Monday where Kobe played 39 minutes and shot 11 for 29 from the field while the Lakers got spanked by the Blazers."You can tell very little from 1 game.

"In the biggest game of the Lakers season last year in the last game of the Finals the Lakers got embarrassed and Kobe played terrible." The Lakers played against the best team defense in years, achored by the defensive player of the year, geared to stop the Lakers best player. Also Kobe led a young, inexperienced, softteam to the finals against against a tough, defensive minded team led by not 1, not 2 but 3 hungry, veteran, all-star players who hadn't won a ring and were geeked up to finally get it done and not be labeled great players who never won the big one. That along with being at home is why the Lakers lost so badly against Boston, not because of some failure of Kobe. Kobe should have been given big time credit for getting them that far.Wade, Lebron, MJ or whoever given those circumstances would have done no better.

"I think Kobe is a player who when he is hot can occasionally take over a game. But I also think Wade and even LeBron sometimes can do that too" What an understatement for all 3.When any of them are "hot" most likely the game will be taken over.

mont13

I have to jump in on this one. Ican't speak for wade or lebron, nor all the circumstances you mentioned, but i'd be willing to bet the house the MJ wouldn't have let his team blow a 25 point lead (or however much it was) in game 4. That CAN'T HAPPEN in the NBA finals.

"Neither Kobe nor Lebron could have done what Wade did in the finals..."

Against the Mavs Kobe and Lebron could have done what Wade did.

"MJ would not let his team blow a 25 point lead..."

Fiqured you'd be stopping by sixringz, but its all good ;) Here's what I'm saying. The veteran, battle tested Bulls teams led by MJ would not have lost that game. But I'll bet the house that if MJwas able to leadasoft, young, inexperienced team without its young promising center to the finals, those Bulls would have gotten beat down as the Lakers did by a tough, defensive, 3 star team on a mission.

BTW, another no doubt "biased" analyst (Tim Legler) just pronounced Kobe the best player and sighted his ability to get off when he wants...just his opinion though;)

Chris Paul, baby!

"MJ would not let his team blow a 25 point lead..."

Fiqured you'd be stopping by sixringz, but its all good ;) Here's what I'm saying. The veteran, battle tested Bulls teams led by MJ would not have lost that game. But I'll bet the house that if MJwas able to leadasoft, young, inexperienced team without its young promising center to the finals, those Bulls would have gotten beat down as the Lakers did by a tough, defensive, 3 star team on a mission.

BTW, another no doubt "biased" analyst (Tim Legler) just pronounced Kobe the best player and sighted his ability to get off when he wants...just his opinion though;)

Chris Paul, baby!

mont13

[QUOTE="nikolai37"][QUOTE="mont13"] [QUOTE="mont13"][QUOTE="nikolai37"][QUOTE="mont13"]

"Neither Kobe nor Lebron could have done what Wade did in the finals..."

Against the Mavs Kobe and Lebron could have done what Wade did.

mont13

sixringz:

"Tim Legler is legit. I think you are getting the wrong idea w/ me. It's like you think that anybody who favors Kobe is "biased" and that's not the case." I was being sarcastic, I don't believe anybody who favors Kobe is biased, but thought one of you guysmight say that. That's why I put the "winky face" there.

nik...:

"What Wade did in those finals is one of the best examples of a player putting his team on his back and winning a championship series.Those games you mention do not compare. Yea, Im sure kobe could do it to, he just hasnt. Kobe has a much better career than Wade because he's been in the league a lot longer. But Wade is a better player than Kobe right now and has been all season long. there is no evidence to state otherwise. if you want to give it to kobe because the Lakers have a great team, then give the trophy to the entire team. There is no use in debating why Wades better than Kobe when you can just keep playing the "Kobe would, Kobe could, and if Kobe" card."

Agreed, what Wade did in the finals was amazing. Agreed, regular season games are not as significant as finals, but the Mavs have shown no ability to do anything with Kobe, and in a finals setting I think Kobe's dominance over them would be greater. Mavs defense vs Celtics defense is like night and day. So, again I agree with your statement of "I'm sure Kobe could do it". "He just hasn't"...Wade and Kobe have not been in the exact same situations, but Kobe has done fine leading the Lakers and sealing victories when Shaq was in foul trouble in the finals or leading up to them. Kobescored big in the finals with Shaq, with no Shaqor a Shaq giving Kobe control of the team as he did for Wade...look out.

"Kobe's career is better because its longer", agreed."Wades a better player this season", you did read where I stated that earlier didn't you?? So agreed. MVP trophy?? You did read where I basically said I wouldn't object to Wade getting it?? One of my main arguments has been that a player shouldn't get it because he has better role players, but rather the guy who's playing best(right or wrong). So no. I don't want to give it to Kobe if someone else has been playing better all season.

My "Kobe would's" and "Kobe could's" or "if Kobe's" are based on solid info/past performance...etc, but hey maybe I'm nuts.

Nap time in Naptown.

sixringz:

"Tim Legler is legit. I think you are getting the wrong idea w/ me. It's like you think that anybody who favors Kobe is "biased" and that's not the case." I was being sarcastic, I don't believe anybody who favors Kobe is biased, but thought one of you guysmight say that. That's why I put the "winky face" there.

nik...:

"What Wade did in those finals is one of the best examples of a player putting his team on his back and winning a championship series.Those games you mention do not compare. Yea, Im sure kobe could do it to, he just hasnt. Kobe has a much better career than Wade because he's been in the league a lot longer. But Wade is a better player than Kobe right now and has been all season long. there is no evidence to state otherwise. if you want to give it to kobe because the Lakers have a great team, then give the trophy to the entire team. There is no use in debating why Wades better than Kobe when you can just keep playing the "Kobe would, Kobe could, and if Kobe" card."

Agreed, what Wade did in the finals was amazing. Agreed, regular season games are not as significant as finals, but the Mavs have shown no ability to do anything with Kobe, and in a finals setting I think Kobe's dominance over them would be greater. Mavs defense vs Celtics defense is like night and day. So, again I agree with your statement of "I'm sure Kobe could do it". "He just hasn't"...Wade and Kobe have not been in the exact same situations, but Kobe has done fine leading the Lakers and sealing victories when Shaq was in foul trouble in the finals or leading up to them. Kobescored big in the finals with Shaq, with no Shaqor a Shaq giving Kobe control of the team as he did for Wade...look out.

"Kobe's career is better because its longer", agreed."Wades a better player this season", you did read where I stated that earlier didn't you?? So agreed. MVP trophy?? You did read where I basically said I wouldn't object to Wade getting it?? One of my main arguments has been that a player shouldn't get it because he has better role players, but rather the guy who's playing best(right or wrong). So no. I don't want to give it to Kobe if someone else has been playing better all season.

My "Kobe would's" and "Kobe could's" or "if Kobe's" are based on solid info/past performance...etc, but hey maybe I'm nuts.

Nap time in Naptown.

mont13

So what we have is we know Wade can do these types of things, and you think Kobe can. I guess thats the recipe for Kobe being a better baller than Wade. And Wade has done these things over the course of an entire season, these stats are not just happening in single games here and there where he blows up, these are averages of a 82 game season. This is a useless debate because no matter what Wade does you think Kobe could do it when in reality the reason he hasnt is because he cant.

Wade looked great again last night. If they can manage to win 40-45 games, I see no reason why he should not be the MVP. He has taken this team from 15 wins last year to 35 so far. Plus he has a rookie head coach and an average supporting cast around him. He is doing it himself almost. jfcundiff

My man, I stated more than once that I pretty much agree with you concerning Wade this season. I don't down play stats, they are useful if properly interpreted. If Kobe played kinda point/shooting guard as I believe Wade does, then yes, I believe Kobe could get those extra assists. Yes, Wade plays the passing lanes well and gets more steals, good for him. Yes, Kobe is the better 3pt shooter, good for him. Yes, Wwade gets more blocks, good for him. Yes, Kobe is the better man on man defender(which may not result in a steal or block but is effective), good for him. Both can get hot and score in bunches but Kobe "hot" is hotter as far as scoring goes. A block or steal may or may not lead to a basket but Kobe's extra scoring punch are definite baskets. They are different players, in different roles, with dfifferent coaches...etc. But if Kobe doesn't match Wade stat for stat youconclude "he can't"...it's not that simple.

I still think Kobe is probably the best pure scorer, but Wade and Lebron are better all around players.

My man, I stated more than once that I pretty much agree with you concerning Wade this season. I don't down play stats, they are useful if properly interpreted. If KobeFONT>