Anti-Aliasing technique: PS3 superior over PC

[QUOTE="gamewhat"]

I know, I know. But it can't be! But yet it is. Its called MLAA. It can only be done on the PS3 right now because of teh cell. The power of teh cell...has finally came back to bite all the you know who's and the other you know who's in the you know what. I think this is funny, because this AA blows up the 360. Oh wait sorry...it does that on its own. Heres the link........wait for it....... http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-saboteur-aa-blog-entry

93soccer

once again someone takes the misguided word of a thread starter who misread the article and tries to downtalk all playstation fans with it

digital foundry isnt saying that it outperforms anything, theyre saying that MLAA is CAPABLE of producing results comparable 16x MSAA in certain situations where MLAA is best exemplified

theyre not saying that the ps3 versions of the saboteur does AA better than EVERY PC GAME, where are people getting this idea? must be from the misguided thread starter

all digital foundry is claiming is that the ps3 version sof the saboteur uses MLAA, theyre not saying anything about the ps3 version itself compared to 16x MSAA on other games currently on the market

edit - look, the guy above me didnt bother reading the article either, and if he did, he vastly misread it

In the article are talking about MLAA vs Multi Sampling AA, but MSAA is the very, VERY poor brother of SUPER SAMPLING ANTIALIASING (SSAA), which is the main type of AA used in PC because is the best in terms of quality -but with heavy hit in performance, (which is the reason because most of times Crysis is played only with MSAA or Edge AA).

So, SSAA >>>MLAA>>>MSAA.

In the article are talking about MLAA vs Multi Sampling AA, but MSAA is the very, VERY poor brother of SUPER SAMPLING ANTIALIASING (SSAA), which is the main type of AA used in PC because is the best in terms of quality -but with heavy hit in performance, (which is the reason because most of times Crysis is played only with MSAA or Edge AA).

So, SSAA >>>MLAA>>>MSAA.

Ondoval

Now if only The Saboteur turned out to be great...

I know, I know. But it can't be! But yet it is. Its called MLAA. It can only be done on the PS3 right now because of teh cell. The power of teh cell...has finally came back to bite all the you know who's and the other you know who's in the you know what. I think this is funny, because this AA blows up the 360. Oh wait sorry...it does that on its own. Heres the link........wait for it....... http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-saboteur-aa-blog-entry

gamewhat

nahh Q16 with super sampling is still king of the hill

edit - look, the guy above me didnt bother reading the article either, and if he did, he vastly misread it

i_am_interested

I was talking about the attitude of the OP, not the subject being discussed. Hence "Let's put aside the arguing for a moment".

The OP is assuming it cannot be done on PC simply because it is only being used in the PS3 version of this game. Which if you recall the history of Cows in SW; is highly hypocritical of them. This person is assuming because it isn't being used it isn't possible, which not too long ago was the very argument Cows were defending the PS3 against.

[QUOTE="i_am_interested"]

edit - look, the guy above me didnt bother reading the article either, and if he did, he vastly misread it

AnnoyedDragon

I was talking about the attitude of the OP, not the subject being discussed. Hence "Let's put aside the arguing for a moment".

The OP is assuming it cannot be done on PC simply because it is only being used in the PS3 version of this game. Which if you recall the history of Cows in SW; is highly hypocritical of them. This person is assuming because it isn't being used it isn't possible, which not too long ago was the very argument Cows were defending the PS3 against.

Obviously it could be done on the PC. I just look at this as a great innovative use of this for consoles which, with some tweaking, could help out porting issues on a lot of multiplatform games. If MLAA starts getting more use we might start seeing an end to all these multiplat graphics threads.

In the end, everybody wins.

[QUOTE="Ondoval"]

In the article are talking about MLAA vs Multi Sampling AA, but MSAA is the very, VERY poor brother of SUPER SAMPLING ANTIALIASING (SSAA), which is the main type of AA used in PC because is the best in terms of quality -but with heavy hit in performance, (which is the reason because most of times Crysis is played only with MSAA or Edge AA).

So, SSAA >>>MLAA>>>MSAA.

killzowned24

Can't be comparable, when a simple SSAA X2 increases x4 the size of the resolution and a SSAA X4 increases x16 the size of the resolution. Take a look over the description:

"

With SSAA, the whole screen is rendered 2 or 4 times bigger than the selected resolution (1280x1024 SSAA 2x2 = 2560x2048, 1280x1024 SSAA 4x4 = 5120x4096). The biggest problem is the speed (this mode eats insane bw & rop power), but, it fixes all the artifacts derived from the jaggies & bad texture filtering. In fact, when you use SSAA 2x2 & AF 16x, you are using 64x AF, and when you use SSAA 4x4 & AF 16x, 256x AF. Also, with this mode, you can run deferred shading. All the rendering techniques are compatible with this mode. After all, this is just an shrink.

MSAA, doesn't change the rendering resolution. In this mode, the card just renders extra 'fragments', in the edges of the polygons. This reduces the number of fragments that you need to generate, to draw your scene. So, this mode is usually fast. But, this mode doesn't fix the texture filtering problems, or specular reflections, or shimmering, ... and has problems with deferred shading techniques (UE3 games).

Nvidia has several MSAA modes, several SSAA modes, and a combination of them.

MS 2x, 4x & 8x

SSAA 1x2, 2x1, 2x2, 4x4 (& more)

4xS does SSAA 1x2 + MS 2x

8xS does SSAA 1x2 + MS 4x

8xSQ does SSAA 2x2 + MS 2x

16xS does SSAA 2x2 + MS 4x

32xS does SSAA 2x2 + MS 8x

The CSAA modes, are an extension to the MSAA modes. They generate extra 'coverage' samples (z values), that are stored into the AA buffers. They combine MSAA 4 or 8x, with 4 or 8 coverage samples. They help to increase the AA quality, with little performance cost.

So, about your question, if you care about absolute image quality (without speed in mind), then SSAA 4x4 is your mode. This mode runs ultra slow even with old games.

The next mode is 16xS. This mode uses SSAA 2x2 (ultra hq texture filtering), and then MSAA 4x on each sample (helps to filter the jaggies much better). This mode runs ok in some modern games like HL2 & TRA.

Then, you need to drop to the MSAA (or CSAA) modes. The 16xQ mode is as slow as the 16xS, and the IQ is inferior. So, if you care about speed and quality, use the 16x CSAA mode. This mode runs great in modern games like Jericho or TRL. The performance hit is acceptable.

The problem in the non SSAA modes, is that the alpha textures are not filtered properly. To fix this problem, you can use the transparency AA flags (MTAA & STAA). MTAA works fast, and STAA offers the best filtering. Anyway, STAA causes a major performance hit in games like HL2:Ep2, and it isn't much faster than the standard SSAA modes.

As resume, if you want to play a modern game (except Crysis), use 16x CSAA, and if you are playing an old title, use SSAA 2x or 16xS."

So, MLAA can't compete against SSAA in terms of quality, and aside Crysis and ArmA II SSAA is the main choice to most of current PC games since most of current engines (UE3, Dunia, Souce...) had huge framerrate and you don't bother about playing at 120 fps without AA when you can fly at 60 fps with SSAA X4. Also, figure that SSAA doesn't suffer any artifact problems present in MLAA; SSAA is crystal clear quality at the cost of very high requirements in hardware of a serious framerrate drop, but this doesn't change the fact that almost all the main console titles runs at 720p or lower with no AA, while most of current PC games are played at 1280 x 960 or better with assured AA in most of the gaming rigs.

Meh, cba reading that. Lets just hope the PS3 gets something, because every PS3 game to date has been a jag fest.Nidget

You mean Halo 3 & ODST jag fest, or another even worse type of jag fest?

PC will always be better, but this could be a good thing in the next year or so. I wonder if this technique leaves enough ram to prevent blurry textures and slow frame rates from crappy ports.

PC will always be better, but this could be a good thing in the next year or so. I wonder if this technique leaves enough ram to prevent blurry textures and slow frame rates from crappy ports.

Kahuna_1

PC will always be better, but this could be a good thing in the next year or so. I wonder if this technique leaves enough ram to prevent blurry textures and slow frame rates from crappy ports.

Kahuna_1

This is why I'm interested. It yields the possibility of multiplatform games between both consoles that perform much closer that some of the bad examples we see now.

It's ridiculous how wrong this thread was.

A) Totally possible on the PC

B) Totally not better than AA we see in PC games presently.

http://visual-computing.intel-research.net/publications/mlaa.pdf

agentfred

It's ridiculous how wrong this thread was.

A) Totally possible on the PC

B) Totally not better than AA we see in PC games presently.

http://visual-computing.intel-research.net/publications/mlaa.pdf

agentfred

Yeah. No way in hell that the PS3 can be better than the PC in graphics or in anything else. The TC just took the article out of context.

[QUOTE="agentfred"]

It's ridiculous how wrong this thread was.

A) Totally possible on the PC

B) Totally not better than AA we see in PC games presently.

http://visual-computing.intel-research.net/publications/mlaa.pdf

ronvalencia

so thats where you were trying to go by posting that quote from the intel link earlier, some of us already knew that modern gpus were capable of the technique

the commotion isnt over which which system can do it ps3 vs pc or which can do it better, nope

the commotion is over the fact that the ps3 has actually utilized it, before tom french's post on the psblog, no one had any idea that the ps3 was capable of performing it

[QUOTE="MortalDecay"]It's a good thing the PS3 has the Cell to cover up the GPU's shortcomings.i_am_interested

thats funny, you make it sound like the Cell just magically appeared on sony's front door step out of nowhere

maybe its not a coincidence that sony relies on the same processor that decodes 1080p blu-rays effortlessly (at 40mbps) to do graphics rendering for games

Besides, my Samsung BR player does the same damn thing with Blu Rays as the PS3, but has a faster drive. :)

So, I don't see the point in bringing up BR.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="agentfred"]

It's ridiculous how wrong this thread was.

A) Totally possible on the PC

B) Totally not better than AA we see in PC games presently.

http://visual-computing.intel-research.net/publications/mlaa.pdf

i_am_interested

so thats where you were trying to go by posting that quote from the intel link earlier, some of us already knew that modern gpus were capable of the technique

the commotion isnt over which which system can do it ps3 vs pc or which can do it better, nope

the commotion is over the fact that the ps3 has actually utilized it, before tom french's post on the psblog, no one had any idea that the ps3 was capable of performing it

The topic title:Anti-Aliasing technique: PS3 superior over PC

As for your point,if you can do MLAA via Intel SSE2, I'm sure you can do it with SPEs.

[QUOTE="Nidget"]Meh, cba reading that. Lets just hope the PS3 gets something, because every PS3 game to date has been a jag fest.Ondoval

You mean Halo 3 & ODST jag fest, or another even worse type of jag fest?

[QUOTE="i_am_interested"]

[QUOTE="MortalDecay"]It's a good thing the PS3 has the Cell to cover up the GPU's shortcomings.MortalDecay

thats funny, you make it sound like the Cell just magically appeared on sony's front door step out of nowhere

maybe its not a coincidence that sony relies on the same processor that decodes 1080p blu-rays effortlessly (at 40mbps) to do graphics rendering for games

Besides, my Samsung BR player does the same damn thing with Blu Rays as the PS3, but has a faster drive. :)

So, I don't see the point in bringing up BR.

lets hope that it can

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/354025/nvidia-announces-3d-blu-ray-for-2010

[QUOTE="killzowned24"]

[QUOTE="Ondoval"]

In the article are talking about MLAA vs Multi Sampling AA, but MSAA is the very, VERY poor brother of SUPER SAMPLING ANTIALIASING (SSAA), which is the main type of AA used in PC because is the best in terms of quality -but with heavy hit in performance, (which is the reason because most of times Crysis is played only with MSAA or Edge AA).

So, SSAA >>>MLAA>>>MSAA.

Ondoval

Can't be comparable, when a simple SSAA X2 increases x4 the size of the resolution and a SSAA X4 increases x16 the size of the resolution.

[QUOTE="MortalDecay"]

[QUOTE="i_am_interested"]

thats funny, you make it sound like the Cell just magically appeared on sony's front door step out of nowhere

maybe its not a coincidence that sony relies on the same processor that decodes 1080p blu-rays effortlessly (at 40mbps) to do graphics rendering for games

Besides, my Samsung BR player does the same damn thing with Blu Rays as the PS3, but has a faster drive. :)

So, I don't see the point in bringing up BR.

lets hope that it can

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/354025/nvidia-announces-3d-blu-ray-for-2010

[QUOTE="killzowned24"] that PDF says MLAA is comparable to super sampling:) all the great crysis bullshots used super sampling to look that good but would run at like 5fps.

Can't be comparable, when a simple SSAA X2 increases x4 the size of the resolution and a SSAA X4 increases x16 the size of the resolution.

[QUOTE="i_am_interested"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"] The research was done by Intel and certain group of people ignored Intel's "this can be done on SSE4 and modern GPUs" comments.

ronvalencia

so thats where you were trying to go by posting that quote from the intel link earlier, some of us already knew that modern gpus were capable of the technique

the commotion isnt over which which system can do it ps3 vs pc or which can do it better, nope

the commotion is over the fact that the ps3 has actually utilized it, before tom french's post on the psblog, no one had any idea that the ps3 was capable of performing it

The topic title:Anti-Aliasing technique: PS3 superior over PC

As for your point,if you can do MLAA via Intel SSE2, I'm sure you can do it with SPEs.

that thread title represents the thread starter's misguided notions and only his

when i say commotion, im talking about the actual commotion, not the TC's misguided commotion

as for your point about SSE2, the commotion is over the fact that it has been used and has been used on an actual product on the market, not that it's capable of it, people are "excited" because we've finally seen it in action, previously it had only been performed and experimented with, but now pandemic has actually released a product that puts the technique on display for the world to see

[QUOTE="killzowned24"][QUOTE="Ondoval"]

Can't be comparable, when a simple SSAA X2 increases x4 the size of the resolution and a SSAA X4 increases x16 the size of the resolution.

ronvalencia

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="i_am_interested"]

so thats where you were trying to go by posting that quote from the intel link earlier, some of us already knew that modern gpus were capable of the technique

the commotion isnt over which which system can do it ps3 vs pc or which can do it better, nope

the commotion is over the fact that the ps3 has actually utilized it, before tom french's post on the psblog, no one had any idea that the ps3 was capable of performing it

i_am_interested

The topic title:Anti-Aliasing technique: PS3 superior over PC

As for your point,if you can do MLAA via Intel SSE2, I'm sure you can do it with SPEs.

that thread title represents the thread starter's misguided notions and only his

when i say commotion, im talking about the actual commotion, not the TC's misguided commotion

as for your point about SSE2, the commotion is over the fact that it has been used and has been used on an actual product on the market, not that it's capable of it, people are "excited" because we've finally seen it in action, previously it had only been performed and experimented with, but now pandemic has actually released a product that puts the technique on display for the world to see

Refer to http://ompf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1395

MLAA implementation was added to Arauna.

[QUOTE="i_am_interested"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"] ?

The topic title:Anti-Aliasing technique: PS3 superior over PC

As for your point,if you can do MLAA via Intel SSE2, I'm sure you can do it with SPEs.

ronvalencia

that thread title represents the thread starter's misguided notions and only his

when i say commotion, im talking about the actual commotion, not the TC's misguided commotion

as for your point about SSE2, the commotion is over the fact that it has been used and has been used on an actual product on the market, not that it's capable of it, people are "excited" because we've finally seen it in action, previously it had only been performed and experimented with, but now pandemic has actually released a product that puts the technique on display for the world to see

Refer to http://ompf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1395

MLAA implementation was added to Arauna.

The good news for PS3 owners: we're finally seeing developers find ways to utilize idle CPU cores. It's hard enough to keep 3 threads working concurrently, let alone 7.

The good news for PC owners: guess what else has idle CPU cores? A quad core CPU running pretty much any game on the market.

Everything looks better on PC. Resident Evil 5 and Street Fighter 4, it's night and day. If Uncharted 2 was released on PC, it too would look better.

Everything looks better on PC. Resident Evil 5 and Street Fighter 4, it's night and day. If Uncharted 2 was released on PC, it too would look better.

mdisen2

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="i_am_interested"]

that thread title represents the thread starter's misguided notions and only his

when i say commotion, im talking about the actual commotion, not the TC's misguided commotion

as for your point about SSE2, the commotion is over the fact that it has been used and has been used on an actual product on the market, not that it's capable of it, people are "excited" because we've finally seen it in action, previously it had only been performed and experimented with, but now pandemic has actually released a product that puts the technique on display for the world to see

i_am_interested

Refer to http://ompf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1395

MLAA implementation was added to Arauna.

Like HDR FP + MSAA on the gaming PC platform, there's very little need to be "creative" on AA.

For HDR + MSAA on PS3, it has to use creative tricks like HDR Logluv. HDR Logluv would consume pixel shader reasource i.e. 5 to 7 cycles. One can see the need for MLAA.

[QUOTE="i_am_interested"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

Refer to http://ompf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1395

MLAA implementation was added to Arauna.

ronvalencia

Like HDR FP + MSAA on the gaming PC platform, there's very little need to be "creative" on AA.

For HDR + MSAA on PS3, it has to use creative tricks like HDR Logluv. HDR Logluv would consume pixel shader reasource i.e. 5 to 7 cycles. One can see the need for MLAA.

[QUOTE="gamewhat"]

I know, I know. But it can't be! But yet it is. Its called MLAA. It can only be done on the PS3 right now because of teh cell. The power of teh cell...has finally came back to bite all the you know who's and the other you know who's in the you know what. I think this is funny, because this AA blows up the 360. Oh wait sorry...it does that on its own. Heres the link........wait for it....... http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-saboteur-aa-blog-entry

Phazevariance

except good games in 2009 :P

[QUOTE="mdisen2"]

Everything looks better on PC. Resident Evil 5 and Street Fighter 4, it's night and day. If Uncharted 2 was released on PC, it too would look better.

johnny27

[QUOTE="johnny27"][QUOTE="mdisen2"]

Everything looks better on PC. Resident Evil 5 and Street Fighter 4, it's night and day. If Uncharted 2 was released on PC, it too would look better.

shalashaska88

It already has silky smooth framerate on PS3 :D

16xAA?? LOL my card can do 24xAA so consoles are still way behind. Some Setups can do 64xAA btw.

[QUOTE="i_am_interested"] have they put any games on the market in which the developers included this feature or am i just going to read about more tests and experiements in this link like i already mentioned?

Like HDR FP + MSAA on the gaming PC platform, there's very little need to be "creative" on AA.

For HDR + MSAA on PS3, it has to use creative tricks like HDR Logluv. HDR Logluv would consume pixel shader reasource i.e. 5 to 7 cycles. One can see the need for MLAA.

My Pc can do SLI 32x AA :P

But at 1680x1050 4x AA is enough.

soooooooo......because the developer sat and did every thing possible to get AA to even work on the ps3 they didn't have time to add it to the 360 and pc version this means the ps3 is superior? *wow*

WilliamRLBaker

because its sooo hard and time consuming to do it on the 360 or PC.... yea right reading comprehension for the loss, that goes to the TC as well

[QUOTE="Phazevariance"][QUOTE="gamewhat"]

I know, I know. But it can't be! But yet it is. Its called MLAA. It can only be done on the PS3 right now because of teh cell. The power of teh cell...has finally came back to bite all the you know who's and the other you know who's in the you know what. I think this is funny, because this AA blows up the 360. Oh wait sorry...it does that on its own. Heres the link........wait for it....... http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-saboteur-aa-blog-entry

BlackTragedy

except good games in 2009 :P

nah it has plenty of good games.... just not one PC game... except dragon age (and thats still multiplat, but still) has been hyped nor found comercial success on the same level as any of the current gen consoles

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]

soooooooo......because the developer sat and did every thing possible to get AA to even work on the ps3 they didn't have time to add it to the 360 and pc version this means the ps3 is superior? *wow*

because its sooo hard and time consuming to do it on the 360 or PC.... yea right reading comprehension for the loss, that goes to the TC as well

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]

soooooooo......because the developer sat and did every thing possible to get AA to even work on the ps3 they didn't have time to add it to the 360 and pc version this means the ps3 is superior? *wow*

Zero_epyon

[QUOTE="johnny27"][QUOTE="mdisen2"]

Everything looks better on PC. Resident Evil 5 and Street Fighter 4, it's night and day. If Uncharted 2 was released on PC, it too would look better.

shalashaska88

Downplaying this wouldn't be fair, since it's quite a nice feat if you ask me. But the article does indeed nowhere state that this can't be done on pc, just that it hasn't been, yet.

Downplaying this wouldn't be fair, since it's quite a nice feat if you ask me. But the article does indeed nowhere state that this can't be done on pc, just that it hasn't been, yet.

NielsNL

[QUOTE="NielsNL"]

Downplaying this wouldn't be fair, since it's quite a nice feat if you ask me. But the article does indeed nowhere state that this can't be done on pc, just that it hasn't been, yet.

alskdjfhg1

[QUOTE="shalashaska88"][QUOTE="johnny27"] yeah even more so if they enhanced it for the pc platform by adding high resolution textures,higher polygon models,enhanced particle and post proccesing effects rendered at a higher resolution then the consoles, and larger drawdistances combine that all with being able to run at higher resolution with high levels of AA and AF :shock:. Sadly this won't happen and it will be a decade before you can play it on your pc ;)Blazerdt47

It already has silky smooth framerate on PS3 :D