Any one who thinks Bioware has "fallen" is utterly clueless.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

And anyone who honestly believes that the quality of their games hasn't fallen significantly this gen is a f*cking dick-riding tool with a BioWare Boner.

No matter how many bad RPGs they play, no matter how bad a game BioWare makes (see: Dragon Age II), that boner just won't go down.

texasgoldrush

He didn't say any of that, actually.

You do that a lot. By that I mean: make sh*t up.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

And anyone who honestly believes that the quality of their games hasn't fallen significantly this gen is a f*cking dick-riding tool with a BioWare Boner.

No matter how many bad RPGs they play, no matter how bad a game BioWare makes (see: Dragon Age II), that boner just won't go down.

NeonNinja

He didn't say any of that, actually.

You do that a lot. By that I mean: make sh*t up.

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] Here everybody.... An RPG Elitist, similiar to ones you see on RPG Codex, talking like complete idiots while they think they are smart, pissing how great the "classics" used to be.texasgoldrush

He didn't say any of that, actually.

You do that a lot. By that I mean: make sh*t up.

What should remind you of Idiocrasy is BioWare making games catered to the lowest common denominator, not DarkLink taking advantage of the new ToU. :roll:

It isn't my fault (or his) that we think their recent games suck ass. If they didn't suck, we wouldn't say that they suck.

When you compare all of their new games to Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, the new games don't look that appealing. Hell, I haven't really enjoyed a Bioware game since Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark.

KotOR didn't grab me in the least since I was never big on Star Wars. Jade Empire never happened. Origins was really cool but the terrible pacing of encounters (Dark Roads..) and laughable final boss really killed that game for me. Mass Effect was some terrible hybrid of action game and RPG, but was somehow compelling like Alpha Protocol. Mass Effect 2 was nice but they should have made the game more focused since it felt like Companion Quest: The Game. Dragon Age 2 is actually really good on paper... but the execution is obviously terrible.

If they would just make a Dragon Age sequel that fixed the problems with Origin's combat pacing and final encounter I would be all over it like a fat kid on cake. Until then I'll stick to CD Projekt or Eidos Montreal for my AAA RPGs.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

He didn't say any of that, actually.

You do that a lot. By that I mean: make sh*t up.

NeonNinja

What should remind you of Idiocrasy is BioWare making games catered to the lowest common denominator, not DarkLink taking advantage of the new ToU. :roll:

It isn't my fault (or his) that we think their recent games suck ass. If they didn't suck, we wouldn't say that they suck.

When you compare all of their new games to Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, the new games don't look that appealing. Hell, I haven't really enjoyed a Bioware game since Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark.

KotOR didn't grab me in the least since I was never big on Star Wars. Jade Empire never happened. Origins was really cool but the terrible pacing of encounters (Dark Roads..) and laughable final boss really killed that game for me. Mass Effect was some terrible hybrid of action game and RPG, but was somehow compelling like Alpha Protocol. Mass Effect 2 was nice but they should have made the game more focused since it felt like Companion Quest: The Game. Dragon Age 2 is actually really good on paper... but the execution is obviously terrible.

If they would just make a Dragon Age sequel that fixed the problems with Origin's combat pacing and final encounter I would be all over it like a fat kid on cake. Until then I'll stick to CD Projekt or Eidos Montreal for my AAA RPGs.

Whiteblade999

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] How is that making things up...that very post is very similiar to posts seen on RPG Codex forums....reminds me of that Idiocracy movie. Bioware shouldn't cater to those people.texasgoldrush

What should remind you of Idiocrasy is BioWare making games catered to the lowest common denominator, not DarkLink taking advantage of the new ToU. :roll:

It isn't my fault (or his) that we think their recent games suck ass. If they didn't suck, we wouldn't say that they suck.

Remember that whole, "makingsh*t up" thing? Did I say I want BioWare to make their games needlessly complex? Did I say I want BioWare to use broken mechanics? Nope. I said their recent games suck.

What's catering to the lowest common denominator is that instead of fixing what you know is broken, they go out and craft the Call of Duty of RPGs, but manage to do it with subpar action and non-existent RPG elements. And no, I don't care what tactics you used on Insanity mode.

And again, I don't care what the majority thought of Mass Effect 2. The majority can kiss my ass. Here's what I think of Mass Effect 2: It sucks. Why do I say Mass Effect 2 sucks? Because it's my opinion and I'll argue it with the majority until they piss off and decide it's OK for people to hate their popular game.

This whole thread is damage control. Bioware has fallen. If Bioware employees had to go on Metacritic and inflate the score for Dragon Age 2 (Which is the worst "RPG", if you can call it an RPG, of this gen, or even better, the worst RPG Bioware has ever made to date), Bioware has fallen. There is no denying it.

It's especially sad for me since I live in Edmonton where their head office is and had the privliage to visit Bioware just before they Released the Baldur's gate 2 expansion. They went from, making epic RPGs and stories, to trying to appeal to the masses with their 3rd person shooter, Mass Effect 2 (Mass Effect 1 was an RPG, Mass Effect 2 is NOT by any means an RPG, but I still enjoyed it). I watched the Mass Effect 3 gameplay trailer and immediately face palmed. What is this?? Gears of Mass Effect? Shepard can dodge roll and leap over giant crevasse's while shooting in the air. *Face Palm*

Bioware has changed. They sold out to the corporations. They lost creativity and now are releasing mindless games so mindless people can easily follow them.

R.I.P Bioware.

This whole thread is damage control. Bioware has fallen. If Bioware employees had to go on Metacritic and inflate the score for Dragon Age 2 (Which is the worst "RPG", if you can call it an RPG, of this gen, or even better, the worst RPG Bioware has ever made to date), Bioware has fallen. There is no denying it.

It's especially sad for me since I live in Edmonton where their head office is and had the privliage to visit Bioware just before they Released the Baldur's gate 2 expansion. They went from, making epic RPGs and stories, to trying to appeal to the masses with their 3rd person shooter, Mass Effect 2 (Mass Effect 1 was an RPG, Mass Effect 2 is NOT by any means an RPG, but I still enjoyed it). I watched the Mass Effect 3 gameplay trailer and immediately face palmed. What is this?? Gears of Mass Effect? Shepard can dodge roll and leap over giant crevasse's while shooting in the air. *Face Palm*

Bioware has changed. They sold out to the corporations. They lost creativity and now are releasing mindless games so mindless people can easily follow them.

R.I.P Bioware.

dream431ca

Losing their independence became a detriment to them.

Okay, my long post was eaten by Firefox. I'll try a short version:

There was some quote about Bioware games still being loved by the majority - I pointed out that the majority vote doesn't mean a whole lot when they're catering to the lowest common denominator.

Anyway, Bioware still make fun games. They're not deep RPGs anymore (especially compared to something like BG2), they're certainly catering to a different audience than they used to, and they seem to focus on style over substance...but hey, they're games are still highly polished and entertaining.

I definitely wouldn't call them great RPG developers anymore...but that's a highly subjective point. The TC will disagree, because all RPG elitists have their own personalised opinion of what makes a good RPG, myself included. In my case, I think they fell years ago (before Jade Empire, although Jade Empire is one of my favourite Bioware games). I definitely don't think they should be praised as one of the top deveopers in the genre, especially since they haven't really been pushing the boundaries of the genre for many years...but again, the TC will disagree, yada yada.

So, have they 'fallen'? Maybe, possibly, really depends on what you consider "fallen" to mean.
- Are they making RPGs of BG2 level complexity anymore? Arguably not - in that sense, there's a good argument that they've fallen.
- Are they catering to the ancient PC gaming RPG crowd? No, not particularly. Their games are more and more focused on winning over a wider console audience.
- Have they sold out? Possibly, hard to tell. I really hate their DLC policies.
- Have they stopped making good games? No, not particultarly. There are several hiccups (like the truly awful Dragon Age 1), but they generally produce highly polished, highly entertaining games.

So...perhaps they've fallen in some ways, not in others. But hey, "fallen" doesn't really mean anything.

*Edit* Also, now I'm curious. What is your favourite RPG, TC? And your favourite Bioware game? Do you think Bioware's two most recent games (Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 2) are great in the same way that those two games were great?

[QUOTE="Whiteblade999"]

When you compare all of their new games to Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, the new games don't look that appealing. Hell, I haven't really enjoyed a Bioware game since Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark.

KotOR didn't grab me in the least since I was never big on Star Wars. Jade Empire never happened. Origins was really cool but the terrible pacing of encounters (Dark Roads..) and laughable final boss really killed that game for me. Mass Effect was some terrible hybrid of action game and RPG, but was somehow compelling like Alpha Protocol. Mass Effect 2 was nice but they should have made the game more focused since it felt like Companion Quest: The Game. Dragon Age 2 is actually really good on paper... but the execution is obviously terrible.

If they would just make a Dragon Age sequel that fixed the problems with Origin's combat pacing and final encounter I would be all over it like a fat kid on cake. Until then I'll stick to CD Projekt or Eidos Montreal for my AAA RPGs.

texasgoldrush

Were we playing the same game? I thought the story and C&C of Alpha Protocol were great, it was everything else that sucked terribly (writing quality included).

Mass Effect 1 on the other hand felt weaker in every area, the one thing that the game really did well was the whole cinematic thing which made it feel like an action movie without the fake tension that the crap singleplayer portion of games like Call of Duty of Battlefield do.

Mass Effect 2 suffered from middle of the trilogy syndrome. They wanted to flesh out the chracters and do minimal stuff with the plot. Everything was set up for the final game. At least the Witcher 2 had a stronger sense of development then like 4 main story missions...

DAII was rushed out the door to get a profit. Black Isle/Troika/Obsidian all released buggy games because they were pushed out the door. Fallout and Fallout 2 were pushed out the door because Interplay was starting to really hurt financially. Bloodlines was forced out the door because of Valve and Activision (google it for more info). Temple of Elemental Evil was pushed out the door with like half the content because Activision wanted a release now, same with Bloodlines. KotOR 2 was pushed out half done because Lucas Arts insisted on it NOW.

If they could self-publish titles I bet things would be quite different. Don't get me wrong, I think serious QA is needed and it is a joke at how bad the released products were but that doesn't change that the fixed games (save maybe KotOR 2, which I have yet to play beyond out of the box) are among the best in the genre.

On an unrelated note, I really wish Obsidian would make another real time with pause game with Avellone at the helm. Mask of the Betrayer pretty much kills every 3D game in that sub-genre save Drakensang: River of Time imo.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

What should remind you of Idiocrasy is BioWare making games catered to the lowest common denominator, not DarkLink taking advantage of the new ToU. :roll:

It isn't my fault (or his) that we think their recent games suck ass. If they didn't suck, we wouldn't say that they suck.

NeonNinja

Remember that whole, "makingsh*t up" thing? Did I say I want BioWare to make their games needlessly complex? Did I say I want BioWare to use broken mechanics? Nope. I said their recent games suck.

What's catering to the lowest common denominator is that instead of fixing what you know is broken, they go out and craft the Call of Duty of RPGs, but manage to do it with subpar action and non-existent RPG elements. And no, I don't care what tactics you used on Insanity mode.

And again, I don't care what the majority thought of Mass Effect 2. The majority can kiss my ass. Here's what I think of Mass Effect 2: It sucks. Why do I say Mass Effect 2 sucks? Because it's my opinion and I'll argue it with the majority until they piss off and decide it's OK for people to hate their popular game.

To be fair, I didn't hate Mass Effect 2, but it wasn't as good as the first. There are NO RPG elements at all. It's a 3rd person shooter. Planet scanning blowed and the characters were not good. Some of the writing was also quite bad. I know where your coming from, and I can tell you that I loved Dragon Age 1 but I absolutely refuse to even touch that disgrace of a game called Dragon Age 2. That game should have never existed. Why the hell make Dragon Age into a trilogy? One reason only: to satisfy the corporate masters: EA.

[QUOTE="dream431ca"]

This whole thread is damage control. Bioware has fallen. If Bioware employees had to go on Metacritic and inflate the score for Dragon Age 2 (Which is the worst "RPG", if you can call it an RPG, of this gen, or even better, the worst RPG Bioware has ever made to date), Bioware has fallen. There is no denying it.

It's especially sad for me since I live in Edmonton where their head office is and had the privliage to visit Bioware just before they Released the Baldur's gate 2 expansion. They went from, making epic RPGs and stories, to trying to appeal to the masses with their 3rd person shooter, Mass Effect 2 (Mass Effect 1 was an RPG, Mass Effect 2 is NOT by any means an RPG, but I still enjoyed it). I watched the Mass Effect 3 gameplay trailer and immediately face palmed. What is this?? Gears of Mass Effect? Shepard can dodge roll and leap over giant crevasse's while shooting in the air. *Face Palm*

Bioware has changed. They sold out to the corporations. They lost creativity and now are releasing mindless games so mindless people can easily follow them.

R.I.P Bioware.

NeonNinja

Losing their independence became a detriment to them.

Unfortunately, it's not uncommon for a great game studio to lose their creativity once they get picked up by a huge publisher only concerned about the bottom line. Look at Rare for example. Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Banjo, then Microsoft picked them up. Now what are they up to? Sports games for Kinect. Speaking of Bioware, I could write a whole book on Mass Effect 2 and a whole series of books on Dragon Age 2 on why these games should not exist in their current state, but I'll just avoid Bioware for now.

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] Whats idiotic is hanging on to broken mechanics that do not translate well in this day and age. Whats catering to the Lowest Common Denominator is making busted broken games like Alpha Protocol just for the sake of RPG elements....which combat system is so incredibly stupid and unrealistic. News flash, even Obsidan devs have said that making the games fun is the most important thing, not shoving in RPG elements for the sake of RPG elements. And as for their new games sucking...too bad, the majority thought that ME2 was great. That is a FACT, not an OPINION.dream431ca

Remember that whole, "makingsh*t up" thing? Did I say I want BioWare to make their games needlessly complex? Did I say I want BioWare to use broken mechanics? Nope. I said their recent games suck.

What's catering to the lowest common denominator is that instead of fixing what you know is broken, they go out and craft the Call of Duty of RPGs, but manage to do it with subpar action and non-existent RPG elements. And no, I don't care what tactics you used on Insanity mode.

And again, I don't care what the majority thought of Mass Effect 2. The majority can kiss my ass. Here's what I think of Mass Effect 2: It sucks. Why do I say Mass Effect 2 sucks? Because it's my opinion and I'll argue it with the majority until they piss off and decide it's OK for people to hate their popular game.

To be fair, I didn't hate Mass Effect 2, but it wasn't as good as the first. There are NO RPG elements at all. It's a 3rd person shooter. Planet scanning blowed and the characters were not good. Some of the writing was also quite bad. I know where your coming from, and I can tell you that I loved Dragon Age 1 but I absolutely refuse to even touch that disgrace of a game called Dragon Age 2. That game should have never existed. Why the hell make Dragon Age into a trilogy? One reason only: to satisfy the corporate masters: EA.

You and I are on exactly the same page. There are page of conversation involving me, TC and a few other guys, and really, you and I basically share the exact same opinion.

I love Dragon Age: Origins. I refuse to touch Dragon Age II. I like Mass Effect. I don't think Mass Effect2 is an RPG. I enjoyed Jade Empire and I'm replaying Knights of the Old Republic. On the whole, BioWare's not a bad dev at all, but their recent games are bad and it is cause for concern because these same games are earning more and more praise and I'm reaching the point where I simply do not trust the critics at all (Skyrim on PS3 getting positive reviews everywhere that were later pulled off of Metacritic, Call of Duty's guaranteed high 80 to mid 90 scores, Mass Effect 2's rabid praise, etc).

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="dream431ca"]

This whole thread is damage control. Bioware has fallen. If Bioware employees had to go on Metacritic and inflate the score for Dragon Age 2 (Which is the worst "RPG", if you can call it an RPG, of this gen, or even better, the worst RPG Bioware has ever made to date), Bioware has fallen. There is no denying it.

It's especially sad for me since I live in Edmonton where their head office is and had the privliage to visit Bioware just before they Released the Baldur's gate 2 expansion. They went from, making epic RPGs and stories, to trying to appeal to the masses with their 3rd person shooter, Mass Effect 2 (Mass Effect 1 was an RPG, Mass Effect 2 is NOT by any means an RPG, but I still enjoyed it). I watched the Mass Effect 3 gameplay trailer and immediately face palmed. What is this?? Gears of Mass Effect? Shepard can dodge roll and leap over giant crevasse's while shooting in the air. *Face Palm*

Bioware has changed. They sold out to the corporations. They lost creativity and now are releasing mindless games so mindless people can easily follow them.

R.I.P Bioware.

dream431ca

Losing their independence became a detriment to them.

Unfortunately, it's not uncommon for a great game studio to lose their creativity once they get picked up by a huge publisher only concerned about the bottom line. Look at Rare for example. Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Banjo, then Microsoft picked them up. Now what are they up to? Sports games for Kinect. Speaking of Bioware, I could write a whole book on Mass Effect 2 and a whole series of books on Dragon Age 2 on why these games should not exist in their current state, but I'll just avoid Bioware for now.

Rare died with the Dreamcast. They were a pretty cool dev. It's a shame they don't exist anymore because I'd love to play a new game by them.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

What should remind you of Idiocrasy is BioWare making games catered to the lowest common denominator, not DarkLink taking advantage of the new ToU. :roll:

It isn't my fault (or his) that we think their recent games suck ass. If they didn't suck, we wouldn't say that they suck.

NeonNinja

Remember that whole, "makingsh*t up" thing? Did I say I want BioWare to make their games needlessly complex? Did I say I want BioWare to use broken mechanics? Nope. I said their recent games suck.

What's catering to the lowest common denominator is that instead of fixing what you know is broken, they go out and craft the Call of Duty of RPGs, but manage to do it with subpar action and non-existent RPG elements. And no, I don't care what tactics you used on Insanity mode.

And again, I don't care what the majority thought of Mass Effect 2. The majority can kiss my ass. Here's what I think of Mass Effect 2: It sucks. Why do I say Mass Effect 2 sucks? Because it's my opinion and I'll argue it with the majority until they piss off and decide it's OK for people to hate their popular game.

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] Whats idiotic is hanging on to broken mechanics that do not translate well in this day and age. Whats catering to the Lowest Common Denominator is making busted broken games like Alpha Protocol just for the sake of RPG elements....which combat system is so incredibly stupid and unrealistic. News flash, even Obsidan devs have said that making the games fun is the most important thing, not shoving in RPG elements for the sake of RPG elements. And as for their new games sucking...too bad, the majority thought that ME2 was great. That is a FACT, not an OPINION.texasgoldrush

Remember that whole, "makingsh*t up" thing? Did I say I want BioWare to make their games needlessly complex? Did I say I want BioWare to use broken mechanics? Nope. I said their recent games suck.

What's catering to the lowest common denominator is that instead of fixing what you know is broken, they go out and craft the Call of Duty of RPGs, but manage to do it with subpar action and non-existent RPG elements. And no, I don't care what tactics you used on Insanity mode.

And again, I don't care what the majority thought of Mass Effect 2. The majority can kiss my ass. Here's what I think of Mass Effect 2: It sucks. Why do I say Mass Effect 2 sucks? Because it's my opinion and I'll argue it with the majority until they piss off and decide it's OK for people to hate their popular game.

Dude, STFU. DL is spot on when he called you a tool and you'll never be anything more. You post a topic that insults those who think BioWare's recent games are bad, then when they post why they hate it your response is "I disagree with you so you're wrong."

The game was a success in terms of sales and numbers. When have I denied that? Never. Yet you keep bringing it up with every criticism I make. Then you say, "And in Mass Effect 3 BioWare's gonna do this and it'll be awesome, herp derp." Mass Effect 3 is not out. So quit talking about it like it is out. I don't care if you have a leaked script, that isn't a final game.

And when I call Mass Effect 2 a Call of Duty type game, I mean you run through a corridor, fight enemies that spawn from the same place each time you play, use the same tactic each time you play and there are rooms of never-ending, constantly spawning enemies, these guys you have to run through to forward the story/mission. All just like in Call of Duty. So you used tactics on the hardest difficulty level. You know what, dude? Gameplay in most games is pretty different from the base experience when you play on the hardest difficulty level. Your defense of "I had to do this on the hardest difficulty level" doesn't fly because it pertains to the handful that had the patience to replay the game, which couldn't have been that much since only 50% of players even bothered to finish the game anyway. Oh yeah, there's your majority for you. Suck it.

And that last part of your post is the stupidest response yet. If I don't care what the majority thinks why criticize? WTF does that even mean? I admit the majority loves this stupid game (wait, only half of them finished it to begin with)and I don't care if they like it, they can't convince me that it's good. And your response is "why criticize"? You're freaking out of your mind if that's the response you give me. Why criticize? Because I think it's a bad game, that's why I criticize. And your constant, toolish reply is "but everyone else likes it." Screw everyone else.

Like I said by discussing various aspects of games without announcing or properly defining them in OP or at least in advance. Then, it's no wonder that this thread is rather confusing and little bit messy. At least in my opinion.

I mean, for example, if I wanted to make a thread defending particular game/s or at least why I like it, I would firstly clearly state my own preferences, when it comes to various gaming aspects. E.g. the most important things for me are non-linear story, big detailed levels, active NPCs that do different things in the games (sleep, walk, talk, cook), good facial animations of main characters and sections with different gameplay (boss battles, stealth missions, hacking / lockpicking minigames, vehicle sections). I don't care that much about about romances, combat in general, graphics (except for aforementioned animations), music, A.I. ... As a result, I find game X (let's say Fallout 2) to be a better game than game Y (let's say Deus Ex Invisible War) because ... and again I would state all of those gaming aspects, in which game X is in my opinion better than game Y and which are important for me.

Then anybody, who disagrees can state their own preferences or question my judgment in my own categories (Is Fallout 2's story really more non-linear than that of Deus Ex IW? Are NPCs in F2 really more active?). Providing that they do the former, we can discuss what "should be" the most important categories and why. This way, I could have a transparent discussion which does not confuse anyone and I (probably) do not risk that much, that somebody would call me a fanboy or hater.

Of course, if your goal is to present, that Bioware is a more successful company than it used to be, then you will have to focus more on sales numbers (because at the end of the day, those are the most important thing for business and survival of the company) and compare Bioware's current position on the market with the situation, that was few years ago, when they were still making "good games". However, under no circumstances I would use critical reception, because... Who cares? Surely not the forumites here - you won't have any decent discussion about that and most likely not even the companies themselves - unless bad reviews start to hurt their sales, which is not always the case.

In both cases though, I would recommend to make your OP / posts more personal (something is good / better / the best according to "you", not in general) and encompassing (you can't focus only on "some" aspects - e.g. characters and ignore others - e.g. level design, unless you state that you don't care about that aspect, which again makes your post more personal).

SciFiRPGfan

That is a excellent point of view that is easy to understand for anyone, props, it's a shame it went over the thread starter's head.

Okay, my long post was eaten by Firefox. I'll try a short version: There was some quote about Bioware games still being loved by the majority - I pointed out that the majority vote doesn't mean a whole lot when they're catering to the lowest common denominator. Anyway, Bioware still make fun games. They're not deep RPGs anymore (especially compared to something like BG2), they're certainly catering to a different audience than they used to, and they seem to focus on style over substance...but hey, they're games are still highly polished and entertaining. I definitely wouldn't call them great RPG developers anymore...but that's a highly subjective point. The TC will disagree, because all RPG elitists have their own personalised opinion of what makes a good RPG, myself included. In my case, I think they fell years ago (before Jade Empire, although Jade Empire is one of my favourite Bioware games). I definitely don't think they should be praised as one of the top deveopers in the genre, especially since they haven't really been pushing the boundaries of the genre for many years...but again, the TC will disagree, yada yada. So, have they 'fallen'? Maybe, possibly, really depends on what you consider "fallen" to mean. Are they making RPGs of BG2 level complexity anymore? Arguably not - in that sense, there's a good argument that they've fallen. Are they catering to the ancient PC gaming RPG crowd? No, not particularly. Their games are more and more focused on winning over a wider console audience. Have they sold out? Possibly, hard to tell. I really hate their DLC policies. Have they stopped making good games? No, not particultarly. There are several hiccups (like the truly awful Dragon Age 1), but they generally produce highly polished, highly entertaining games. So...perhaps they've fallen in some ways, not in others. But hey, "fallen" doesn't really mean anything. *Edit* Also, now I'm curious. What is your favourite RPG, TC? And your favourite Bioware game? Do you think Bioware's two most recent games (Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 2) are great in the same way that those two games were great? Planeforger

[QUOTE="SciFiRPGfan"]

Like I said by discussing various aspects of games without announcing or properly defining them in OP or at least in advance. Then, it's no wonder that this thread is rather confusing and little bit messy. At least in my opinion.

I mean, for example, if I wanted to make a thread defending particular game/s or at least why I like it, I would firstly clearly state my own preferences, when it comes to various gaming aspects. E.g. the most important things for me are non-linear story, big detailed levels, active NPCs that do different things in the games (sleep, walk, talk, cook), good facial animations of main characters and sections with different gameplay (boss battles, stealth missions, hacking / lockpicking minigames, vehicle sections). I don't care that much about about romances, combat in general, graphics (except for aforementioned animations), music, A.I. ... As a result, I find game X (let's say Fallout 2) to be a better game than game Y (let's say Deus Ex Invisible War) because ... and again I would state all of those gaming aspects, in which game X is in my opinion better than game Y and which are important for me.

Then anybody, who disagrees can state their own preferences or question my judgment in my own categories (Is Fallout 2's story really more non-linear than that of Deus Ex IW? Are NPCs in F2 really more active?). Providing that they do the former, we can discuss what "should be" the most important categories and why. This way, I could have a transparent discussion which does not confuse anyone and I (probably) do not risk that much, that somebody would call me a fanboy or hater.

Of course, if your goal is to present, that Bioware is a more successful company than it used to be, then you will have to focus more on sales numbers (because at the end of the day, those are the most important thing for business and survival of the company) and compare Bioware's current position on the market with the situation, that was few years ago, when they were still making "good games". However, under no circumstances I would use critical reception, because... Who cares? Surely not the forumites here - you won't have any decent discussion about that and most likely not even the companies themselves - unless bad reviews start to hurt their sales, which is not always the case.

In both cases though, I would recommend to make your OP / posts more personal (something is good / better / the best according to "you", not in general) and encompassing (you can't focus only on "some" aspects - e.g. characters and ignore others - e.g. level design, unless you state that you don't care about that aspect, which again makes your post more personal).

Lucianu

That is a excellent point of view that is easy to understand for anyone, props, it's a shame it went over the thread starter's head.

Why couldn't this guy have made the thread? At least then we'd have a proper discussion instead of hearing the TC say, "Well, according to this leaked script...." or "Well the critics say...." Then again, it's hard for the TC to grasp people's differing views, so I'm expecting too much.

Why couldn't this guy have made the thread? At least then we'd have a proper discussion instead of hearing the TC say, "Well, according to this leaked script...." or "Well the critics say...." Then again, it's hard for the TC to grasp people's differing views, so I'm expecting too much.

NeonNinja

Yeah, it was a very nice point of view. Its a shame that i gotta go drink my ass off in like 10 minutes, and i'm already late, otherwise it would have ben a cool thread to get into, would have definitely killed the boredom.

Texasgoldrush is just a Bioware fanboy and he'll defend this company until the Apocalypse comes if you're gonna argue with him, let it go. There is basically no point to argue with him. And Merry Christmas .

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

Why couldn't this guy have made the thread? At least then we'd have a proper discussion instead of hearing the TC say, "Well, according to this leaked script...." or "Well the critics say...." Then again, it's hard for the TC to grasp people's differing views, so I'm expecting too much.

Lucianu

Yeah, it was a very nice point of view. Its a shame that i gotta go drink my ass off in like 10 minutes, and i'm already late, otherwise it would have ben a cool thread to get into, would have definitely killed the boredom.

Texasgoldrush is just a Bioware fanboy and he'll defend this company until the Apocalypse comes if you're gonna argue with him, let it go. There is basically no point to argue with him. And Merry Christmas .

Merry Christmas to you too, bro.

I can tell he's a fanboy. He's a troll that covers up his troll scent with the thick cologne of proper sentence structure. But I'll take him. I've got nothing left to do until tomorrow morning, anyway.

[QUOTE="argetlam00"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] No memorable Mass Effect sidequest? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qCs-Mnp_gI And once again, the ME2 characters are the plot, the plot is about getting them and the crew ready for the final mission. And the loyalty plotlines started in ME2 makes a big impact in ME3. So new characters like Thane an dmordin aren't good? Wowtexasgoldrush

No, there were no new characters that were cool in Mass Effect 2. None of them impressed me. The rest were boring, whiny or simply unpleasant. Sorry, watched that vid and I see nothing but pointless droning. Whats so special about this quest again?

[QUOTE="dream431ca"]

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

Remember that whole, "makingsh*t up" thing? Did I say I want BioWare to make their games needlessly complex? Did I say I want BioWare to use broken mechanics? Nope. I said their recent games suck.

What's catering to the lowest common denominator is that instead of fixing what you know is broken, they go out and craft the Call of Duty of RPGs, but manage to do it with subpar action and non-existent RPG elements. And no, I don't care what tactics you used on Insanity mode.

And again, I don't care what the majority thought of Mass Effect 2. The majority can kiss my ass. Here's what I think of Mass Effect 2: It sucks. Why do I say Mass Effect 2 sucks? Because it's my opinion and I'll argue it with the majority until they piss off and decide it's OK for people to hate their popular game.

NeonNinja

To be fair, I didn't hate Mass Effect 2, but it wasn't as good as the first. There are NO RPG elements at all. It's a 3rd person shooter. Planet scanning blowed and the characters were not good. Some of the writing was also quite bad. I know where your coming from, and I can tell you that I loved Dragon Age 1 but I absolutely refuse to even touch that disgrace of a game called Dragon Age 2. That game should have never existed. Why the hell make Dragon Age into a trilogy? One reason only: to satisfy the corporate masters: EA.

You and I are on exactly the same page. There are page of conversation involving me, TC and a few other guys, and really, you and I basically share the exact same opinion.

I love Dragon Age: Origins. I refuse to touch Dragon Age II. I like Mass Effect. I don't think Mass Effect2 is an RPG. I enjoyed Jade Empire and I'm replaying Knights of the Old Republic. On the whole, BioWare's not a bad dev at all, but their recent games are bad and it is cause for concern because these same games are earning more and more praise and I'm reaching the point where I simply do not trust the critics at all (Skyrim on PS3 getting positive reviews everywhere that were later pulled off of Metacritic, Call of Duty's guaranteed high 80 to mid 90 scores, Mass Effect 2's rabid praise, etc).

Well, "Great minds think alike" :P

I agree Bioware is not a bad dev, just not as creative as they used to be, or they need to rush things out so the big guys are happy to make a profit. It's the same as mainstream music; make the music really quickly and push it out to make a profit, while most of the underground music or non mainstream is very creative. That's my analogy anyway.

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="dream431ca"]

To be fair, I didn't hate Mass Effect 2, but it wasn't as good as the first. There are NO RPG elements at all. It's a 3rd person shooter. Planet scanning blowed and the characters were not good. Some of the writing was also quite bad. I know where your coming from, and I can tell you that I loved Dragon Age 1 but I absolutely refuse to even touch that disgrace of a game called Dragon Age 2. That game should have never existed. Why the hell make Dragon Age into a trilogy? One reason only: to satisfy the corporate masters: EA.

dream431ca

You and I are on exactly the same page. There are page of conversation involving me, TC and a few other guys, and really, you and I basically share the exact same opinion.

I love Dragon Age: Origins. I refuse to touch Dragon Age II. I like Mass Effect. I don't think Mass Effect2 is an RPG. I enjoyed Jade Empire and I'm replaying Knights of the Old Republic. On the whole, BioWare's not a bad dev at all, but their recent games are bad and it is cause for concern because these same games are earning more and more praise and I'm reaching the point where I simply do not trust the critics at all (Skyrim on PS3 getting positive reviews everywhere that were later pulled off of Metacritic, Call of Duty's guaranteed high 80 to mid 90 scores, Mass Effect 2's rabid praise, etc).

Well, "Great minds think alike" :P

I agree Bioware is not a bad dev, just not as creative as they used to be, or they need to rush things out so the big guys are happy to make a profit. It's the same as mainstream music; make the music really quickly and push it out to make a profit, while most of the underground music or non mainstream is very creative. That's my analogy anyway.

Your profile is set to private so I can't check out your blog for a good read... :(

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="NeonNinja"] Remember that whole, "makingsh*t up" thing? Did I say I want BioWare to make their games needlessly complex? Did I say I want BioWare to use broken mechanics? Nope. I said their recent games suck. What's catering to the lowest common denominator is that instead of fixing what you know is broken, they go out and craft the Call of Duty of RPGs, but manage to do it with subpar action and non-existent RPG elements. And no, I don't care what tactics you used on Insanity mode. And again, I don't care what the majority thought of Mass Effect 2. The majority can kiss my ass. Here's what I think of Mass Effect 2: It sucks. Why do I say Mass Effect 2 sucks? Because it's my opinion and I'll argue it with the majority until they piss off and decide it's OK for people to hate their popular game. NeonNinja

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]Why couldn't this guy have made the thread? At least then we'd have a proper discussion instead of hearing the TC say, "Well, according to this leaked script...." or "Well the critics say...." Then again, it's hard for the TC to grasp people's differing views, so I'm expecting too much.Lucianu

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"][QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] And guess what? Your opinion does not matter. Why? Because the game was a success plain and simple. And why was it a success? Because they learned that the system in th efirst game, the RPG system, was broken. And how is it like Call of Duty? You play like CoD, you die, plain and simple. It requires tactics, more so than the "More RPG" ME1. If you don't care, than why criticize. You are basically saying "I don't care that you had to actually use tactics", because then again, you can't call it a CoD type game. It will be even less so in ME3 with new enemy types. Party balance is more crucial in ME2 than it was in ME1. And really, why should a game that is centered around a commando squad led by a "Space SEAL" have to be a traditional RPG with heavy RPG elements? The setting makes the missions being more like commando raids the correct choice.texasgoldrush

You have a copy of the first draft. Do you have any idea how many revisions scripts go through? I bet you can't answer that. I can, but let's just say that if you have the first draft, that thing was obsolete before it was even leaked.

And I never denied it winning GotY awards, so why should I explain that?

And you kill me, dude. I had a discussion just a few posts ago with another user where I said I think BioWare is a good dev but that their recent games suck. I've said their games score well and sell well multiple times to you and that I just don't think that they're any good. You ignore that across this entire thread and then try to pull the same crap by mentioning how you don't like Uncharted but can't deny that it scores well. You're really lame.

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="dream431ca"]

To be fair, I didn't hate Mass Effect 2, but it wasn't as good as the first. There are NO RPG elements at all. It's a 3rd person shooter. Planet scanning blowed and the characters were not good. Some of the writing was also quite bad. I know where your coming from, and I can tell you that I loved Dragon Age 1 but I absolutely refuse to even touch that disgrace of a game called Dragon Age 2. That game should have never existed. Why the hell make Dragon Age into a trilogy? One reason only: to satisfy the corporate masters: EA.

dream431ca

You and I are on exactly the same page. There are page of conversation involving me, TC and a few other guys, and really, you and I basically share the exact same opinion.

I love Dragon Age: Origins. I refuse to touch Dragon Age II. I like Mass Effect. I don't think Mass Effect2 is an RPG. I enjoyed Jade Empire and I'm replaying Knights of the Old Republic. On the whole, BioWare's not a bad dev at all, but their recent games are bad and it is cause for concern because these same games are earning more and more praise and I'm reaching the point where I simply do not trust the critics at all (Skyrim on PS3 getting positive reviews everywhere that were later pulled off of Metacritic, Call of Duty's guaranteed high 80 to mid 90 scores, Mass Effect 2's rabid praise, etc).

Well, "Great minds think alike" :P

I agree Bioware is not a bad dev, just not as creative as they used to be, or they need to rush things out so the big guys are happy to make a profit. It's the same as mainstream music; make the music really quickly and push it out to make a profit, while most of the underground music or non mainstream is very creative. That's my analogy anyway.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="NeonNinja"]Dude, STFU. DL is spot on when he called you a tool and you'll never be anything more. You post a topic that insults those who think BioWare's recent games are bad, then when they post why they hate it your response is "I disagree with you so you're wrong." The game was a success in terms of sales and numbers. When have I denied that? Never. Yet you keep bringing it up with every criticism I make. Then you say, "And in Mass Effect 3 BioWare's gonna do this and it'll be awesome, herp derp." Mass Effect 3 is not out. So quit talking about it like it is out. I don't care if you have a leaked script, that isn't a final game. And when I call Mass Effect 2 a Call of Duty type game, I mean you run through a corridor, fight enemies that spawn from the same place each time you play, use the same tactic each time you play and there are rooms of never-ending, constantly spawning enemies, these guys you have to run through to forward the story/mission. All just like in Call of Duty. So you used tactics on the hardest difficulty level. You know what, dude? Gameplay in most games is pretty different from the base experience when you play on the hardest difficulty level. Your defense of "I had to do this on the hardest difficulty level" doesn't fly because it pertains to the handful that had the patience to replay the game, which couldn't have been that much since only 50% of players even bothered to finish the game anyway. Oh yeah, there's your majority for you. Suck And that last part of your post is the stupidest response yet. If I don't care what the majority thinks why criticize? WTF does that even mean? I admit the majority loves this stupid game (wait, only half of them finished it to begin with)and I don't care if they like it, they can't convince me that it's good. And your response is "why criticize"? You're freaking out of your mind if that's the response you give me. Why criticize? Because I think it's a bad game, that's why I criticize. And your constant, toolish reply is "but everyone else likes it." Screw everyone else.NeonNinja

You have a copy of the first draft. Do you have any idea how many revisions scripts go through? I bet you can't answer that. I can, but let's just say that if you have the first draft, that thing was obsolete before it was even leaked.

And I never denied it winning GotY awards, so why should I explain that?

And you kill me, dude. I had a discussion just a few posts ago with another user where I said I think BioWare is a good dev but that their recent games suck. I've said their games score well and sell well multiple times to you and that I just don't think that they're any good. You ignore that across this entire thread and then try to pull the same crap by mentioning how you don't like Uncharted but can't deny that it scores well. You're really lame.

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] News flash: I have the leaked script of the first draft. I know whats most likely going to happen in ME3. A significant nnumber of people do not finish their games, but still why did the game continously win GOTY reader polls in 2010, over games that sold more copies than ME2? Bet you can't answer that question. Also, other factors other than the quality of the game is also a factor. And this data also factors in playthroughs, not game owners. As well, you also haven;t factoring people who may have been playing the game that haven;t finished but plan to. This stat isn't everything. And I make topics like this because of people like you...the vocal minority who comes in these forums to stay how stupid and bad this game is, and how Bioware is such a bad developer..face it, your opinion flies in the face of reality. I am not a fan of the uncharted series for instance, but objectively the SERIES IS HIGHLY REGARDED DESPITE MY OPINION!!!!!!texasgoldrush

You have a copy of the first draft. Do you have any idea how many revisions scripts go through? I bet you can't answer that. I can, but let's just say that if you have the first draft, that thing was obsolete before it was even leaked.

And I never denied it winning GotY awards, so why should I explain that?

And you kill me, dude. I had a discussion just a few posts ago with another user where I said I think BioWare is a good dev but that their recent games suck. I've said their games score well and sell well multiple times to you and that I just don't think that they're any good. You ignore that across this entire thread and then try to pull the same crap by mentioning how you don't like Uncharted but can't deny that it scores well. You're really lame.

It's irrelevant whether you go into Uncharted topics to give your opinion or not. You made a thread to argue with people that think BioWare have fallen. What were you expecting to attract with a thread title like that? I'm here because it's what your thread is about. Don't wish me away because you're tired of arguing. You brought this on, deal with it.

it's a shame it went over the thread starter's head.Lucianu

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

You have a copy of the first draft. Do you have any idea how many revisions scripts go through? I bet you can't answer that. I can, but let's just say that if you have the first draft, that thing was obsolete before it was even leaked.

And I never denied it winning GotY awards, so why should I explain that?

And you kill me, dude. I had a discussion just a few posts ago with another user where I said I think BioWare is a good dev but that their recent games suck. I've said their games score well and sell well multiple times to you and that I just don't think that they're any good. You ignore that across this entire thread and then try to pull the same crap by mentioning how you don't like Uncharted but can't deny that it scores well. You're really lame.

NeonNinja

It's irrelevant whether you go into Uncharted topics to give your opinion or not. You made a thread to argue with people that think BioWare have fallen. What were you expecting to attract with a thread title like that? I'm here because it's what your thread is about. Don't wish me away because you're tired of arguing. You brought this on, deal with it.

I don't think Bioware has "fallen", I just think all of their recent games are bloody overrated, and I only say recent because I've never played a Bioware game before Jade Empire. Fallout: New Vegas is the best RPG of the generation but reviewers and critics shafted it in favour of Mass Effect 2, a game which has a stupid setting, a stupid main story and a lot of censored xenophilia.

[QUOTE="Lucianu"]it's a shame it went over the thread starter's head.texasgoldrush

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] But I do not go into Uncharted topics and say how stupid the game is....in reality, my opinion of Uncharted 2 and 3 does NOT matter. And yes, the script can be revised over and over again,, however, the direction of the story likely won't.texasgoldrush

It's irrelevant whether you go into Uncharted topics to give your opinion or not. You made a thread to argue with people that think BioWare have fallen. What were you expecting to attract with a thread title like that? I'm here because it's what your thread is about. Don't wish me away because you're tired of arguing. You brought this on, deal with it.

there are like 10 different people in this thread that answered you with different reasons why bioware is falling and you answer them all with the same thing. Do you really think spamming everyone who disagrees with you make it true?

i loved bg and kotor, even dragon age, but their latest games have declined. bioware became known for bg and kotor and most people remember them from that, you can say mass effect is bla bla bla (a good game imo nothing against it) but if you ask which is the best rpg of all time, i doubt anyone will answer mass effect 1 or 2, besides you ofc, kotor and baldurs gate, probably even ultima will come up.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="Lucianu"]it's a shame it went over the thread starter's head.SciFiRPGfan

I don't think Bioware has "fallen", I just think all of their recent games are bloody overrated, and I only say recent because I've never played a Bioware game before Jade Empire. Fallout: New Vegas is the best RPG of the generation but reviewers and critics shafted it in favour of Mass Effect 2, a game which has a stupid setting, a stupid main story and a lot of censored xenophilia.

Barbariser

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

And anyone who honestly believes that the quality of their games hasn't fallen significantly this gen is a f*cking dick-riding tool with a BioWare Boner.

No matter how many bad RPGs they play, no matter how bad a game BioWare makes (see: Dragon Age II), that boner just won't go down.

NeonNinja

My man. Laying it all out on the line, just the way we like it.

[QUOTE="Barbariser"]

I don't think Bioware has "fallen", I just think all of their recent games are bloody overrated, and I only say recent because I've never played a Bioware game before Jade Empire. Fallout: New Vegas is the best RPG of the generation but reviewers and critics shafted it in favour of Mass Effect 2, a game which has a stupid setting, a stupid main story and a lot of censored xenophilia.

texasgoldrush

Okay, so what if the "general population" named it RPG of the year (obviously fans are going to vote for it :roll: )? Is that supposed to in any way refute my statement that it is overrated, or are you relapsing into your habit of repeating facts that are meaningless to the argument? New Vegas's only real similarities to Fallout 3 are basic game design and visuals (OMG MASS EFFECT 2 IS TOO SIMILAR TO MASS EFFECT 1! :o), and both Oblivion and Fallout 3 managed to win awards all over their respective years despite also being glitchy messes. It's still the best RPG of the generation and should have been the one in the spotlight last year, regardless of how much you choose to repeat that it wasn't because you don't understand that no one's trying to argue how things are, they're trying to argue how things should be.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

And anyone who honestly believes that the quality of their games hasn't fallen significantly this gen is a f*cking dick-riding tool with a BioWare Boner.

No matter how many bad RPGs they play, no matter how bad a game BioWare makes (see: Dragon Age II), that boner just won't go down.

texasgoldrush

Just because you defend them does not make them better developers. The media can look at them however they want, we don't really care. We've played the games and our judgments are set in stone, I know mine are.DragonfireXZ95

[QUOTE="dream431ca"]

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

You and I are on exactly the same page. There are page of conversation involving me, TC and a few other guys, and really, you and I basically share the exact same opinion.

I love Dragon Age: Origins. I refuse to touch Dragon Age II. I like Mass Effect. I don't think Mass Effect2 is an RPG. I enjoyed Jade Empire and I'm replaying Knights of the Old Republic. On the whole, BioWare's not a bad dev at all, but their recent games are bad and it is cause for concern because these same games are earning more and more praise and I'm reaching the point where I simply do not trust the critics at all (Skyrim on PS3 getting positive reviews everywhere that were later pulled off of Metacritic, Call of Duty's guaranteed high 80 to mid 90 scores, Mass Effect 2's rabid praise, etc).

NeonNinja

Well, "Great minds think alike" :P

I agree Bioware is not a bad dev, just not as creative as they used to be, or they need to rush things out so the big guys are happy to make a profit. It's the same as mainstream music; make the music really quickly and push it out to make a profit, while most of the underground music or non mainstream is very creative. That's my analogy anyway.

Your profile is set to private so I can't check out your blog for a good read... :(

That's an ongoing issue. My profile is actually set to public but it's stuck in private :(

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

And anyone who honestly believes that the quality of their games hasn't fallen significantly this gen is a f*cking dick-riding tool with a BioWare Boner.

No matter how many bad RPGs they play, no matter how bad a game BioWare makes (see: Dragon Age II), that boner just won't go down.

DarkLink77

lets not forget the " if you didn't like dragon agez 2 its because you are too dumb to understand the awesome complixity of the game" he replies in every thread where dragon age 2 story comes up.

its sad that exists people like that, who thinks liking a company means putting blind fanboy glasses.

[QUOTE="dream431ca"]

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

You and I are on exactly the same page. There are page of conversation involving me, TC and a few other guys, and really, you and I basically share the exact same opinion.

I love Dragon Age: Origins. I refuse to touch Dragon Age II. I like Mass Effect. I don't think Mass Effect2 is an RPG. I enjoyed Jade Empire and I'm replaying Knights of the Old Republic. On the whole, BioWare's not a bad dev at all, but their recent games are bad and it is cause for concern because these same games are earning more and more praise and I'm reaching the point where I simply do not trust the critics at all (Skyrim on PS3 getting positive reviews everywhere that were later pulled off of Metacritic, Call of Duty's guaranteed high 80 to mid 90 scores, Mass Effect 2's rabid praise, etc).

texasgoldrush

Well, "Great minds think alike" :P

I agree Bioware is not a bad dev, just not as creative as they used to be, or they need to rush things out so the big guys are happy to make a profit. It's the same as mainstream music; make the music really quickly and push it out to make a profit, while most of the underground music or non mainstream is very creative. That's my analogy anyway.

What do you mean by "breakout"? Anyway, I don't want to go of topic. Lets turn this around into gaming.

Bioware never had to "breakout". They were already popular after Baldur's Gate 2. Someone at Bioware (or EA) decided that Bioware should become more "mainstream". What that means to me is make games that almost anyone can get into in a very short amount of time and don't need a lot of brain cells to do it. That means watered down mechanics, simple and fast combat without any tactical intervention, and characters that are bland and boring. Bioware has become the corporate cog wheel for EA, lacking creativity, going the easy route to make as much money as possible.

[QUOTE="Lucianu"]it's a shame it went over the thread starter's head.texasgoldrush

The problem my friend is that you don't listen. You are the type of debater who has made their mind up before the discussion has already began. No one cares to talk to someone who just wants to beat their opinion over your head over and over and never concede when they are proven wrong or do not have a strong argument. I don't have an opinion on Bioware. The only game they have made that I own is ME2. From what I played of ME2 it was a good game, it was also overated with sh1tty dialogue wheels and generic TPS mechanics (I love TPS games so I don't mind though). Does that mean the company has fallen? I wouldn't know. I do kind of pity those that think ME2 is game of the generation though.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="Barbariser"]

I don't think Bioware has "fallen", I just think all of their recent games are bloody overrated, and I only say recent because I've never played a Bioware game before Jade Empire. Fallout: New Vegas is the best RPG of the generation but reviewers and critics shafted it in favour of Mass Effect 2, a game which has a stupid setting, a stupid main story and a lot of censored xenophilia.

Barbariser

Okay, so what if the "general population" named it RPG of the year (obviously fans are going to vote for it :roll: )? Is that supposed to in any way refute my statement that it is overrated, or are you relapsing into your habit of repeating facts that are meaningless to the argument? New Vegas's only real similarities to Fallout 3 are basic game design and visuals (OMG MASS EFFECT 2 IS TOO SIMILAR TO MASS EFFECT 1! :o), and both Oblivion and Fallout 3 managed to win awards all over their respective years despite also being glitchy messes. It's still the best RPG of the generation and should have been the one in the spotlight last year, regardless of how much you choose to repeat that it wasn't because you don't understand that no one's trying to argue how things are, they're trying to argue how things should be.

Best RPG this generaton? Obviosuly not. Objectively. You may think so IN YOUR OPINION, but for reception in the gaming community, it is not. I think Fallout New Vegas is better than Fallout 3, doesn't escape the fact that Fallout 3 made more waves and was more influential. And really, I can't argue the fact that some fans see New Vegas as a giant expansion pack more than a new game. And really their are FAR more similiarities than differences between the two games, New Vegas is just simply an enhanced version of Fallout 3. Its like Fallout 2 compared to the first game. Also while Fallout 3, Oblivion, and Skyrim are glitchy, New Vegas was far worse.A And "how things should be" does not compare to "how things are".....its an objective fact that Bioware is not falling from "how things are" outside their Dragon age team. Bioware critics simply do not want to face reality..And really traditional RPG elitists have to deal with it, traditional RPGs are on their way out, especially in the West like how point and click adventure sputtered out.texasgoldrush

What/who did Fallout 3 influence?

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="dream431ca"]

Well, "Great minds think alike" :P

I agree Bioware is not a bad dev, just not as creative as they used to be, or they need to rush things out so the big guys are happy to make a profit. It's the same as mainstream music; make the music really quickly and push it out to make a profit, while most of the underground music or non mainstream is very creative. That's my analogy anyway.

dream431ca

What do you mean by "breakout"? Anyway, I don't want to go of topic. Lets turn this around into gaming.

Bioware never had to "breakout". They were already popular after Baldur's Gate 2. Someone at Bioware (or EA) decided that Bioware should become more "mainstream". What that means to me is make games that almost anyone can get into in a very short amount of time and don't need a lot of brain cells to do it. That means watered down mechanics, simple and fast combat without any tactical intervention, and characters that are bland and boring. Bioware has become the corporate cog wheel for EA, lacking creativity, going the easy route to make as much money as possible.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="Lucianu"]it's a shame it went over the thread starter's head.ActicEdge

The problem my friend is that you don't listen. You are the type of debater who has made their mind up before the discussion has already began. No one cares to talk to someone who just wants to beat their opinion over your head over and over and never concede when they are proven wrong or do not have a strong argument. I don't have an opinion on Bioware. The only game they have made that I own is ME2. From what I played of ME2 it was a good game, it was also overated with sh1tty dialogue wheels and generic TPS mechanics (I love TPS games so I don't mind though). Does that mean the company has fallen? I wouldn't know. I do kind of pity those that think ME2 is game of the generation though.