Are there any difficult PC games?

All of the "Top XX Hardest Games of All Time" lists I'm seeing are devoid of any PC games. There are plenty of games on consoles that are notorious for being difficult just to finishbut I don't really see that on the PC, which seems to have a lot of attrition based games, where it is a question of when-not if you-will beat it.

So, what are the challenging games for PC? What are the Gradius/Battle Garegga/Demon's Souls/Godhand/Street Fighter(s) of PC gaming?And what are your thoughts about console games being more challenging to play?

PC games have a different sort of challenge, on console its very much about more enemies with more health, on PC its more strategic.

A game like Shogun has crazy depth that takes a long time to master, beating the game on the hardest difficulty is reserved for a tiny percent of people.

Of course PCs have the more "actiony" challenges as well, but I wouldn't typify PC game challenge with an action game.

Difficulty in PC games is not simulated by stupidly thought boss encounters. It's a derivation of the competitiveness of multiplayer games.

It´s not a matter of dificulty but of complexity.

On the PC,you have many games that are more complex than anything you´ll ever see on consoles.

Try stuff like Hearts of Iron,Europa Universalis,Arma 2,FSX and so many more and then tell me they´re easy. Many console games in that regard are more like cheap than hard.

So no,consoles don´t have harder games than the hardest ones on the PC,at all.

LOL, I can't believe you just asked that... :P

Any Blizzard game. Yes, there was a time when WoW was hard. I'd also like to mention ArmA II.

There are many, many difficult PC games. Even games like DMC4 got an additional difficulty (because consoles couldn't handle it :P )

LOL, I can't believe you just asked that... :P

psn8214

Maybe could you could expound and give a good reason for that, like some of the guys above did, instead of just being glib?

Maybe could you could expound and give a good reason for that, like some of the guys above did, instead of just being glib?

NEStorianPriest

Like *you* should have done with your own research before making this thread?

So play a a shooter on highest difficulty? I thought shooters were easier on PCs because of the mouse and keyboard setup.

[QUOTE="psn8214"]

LOL, I can't believe you just asked that... :P

NEStorianPriest

Maybe could you could expound and give a good reason for that, like some of the guys above did, instead of just being glib?

Go play Starcraft 2 on Insane.

Then try playing against a korean. Its makes Insane look like Uber Easy.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

Maybe could you could expound and give a good reason for that, like some of the guys above did, instead of just being glib?

Mograine

Like *you* should have done with your own research before making this thread?

Ahhh. So PC gamers ask console gamers why they like doing things a certain way and expect a response, but I don't have that luxury. eh? Interesting.

[QUOTE="psn8214"]

LOL, I can't believe you just asked that... :P

NEStorianPriest

Maybe could you could expound and give a good reason for that, like some of the guys above did, instead of just being glib?

I was noting that it's generally accepted that harder games reside on PC, not consoles. The other guys already gave you some games. :P

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="psn8214"]

LOL, I can't believe you just asked that... :P

ChubbyGuy40

Maybe could you could expound and give a good reason for that, like some of the guys above did, instead of just being glib?

Go play Starcraft 2 on Insane.

Then try playing against a korean. Its makes Insane look like Uber Easy.

So to play a difficult game on a PC I have to play against someone else?

It´s not a matter of dificulty but of complexity.

On the PC,you have many games that are more complex than anything you´ll ever see on consoles.

Try stuff like Hearts of Iron,Europa Universalis,Arma 2,FSX and so many more and then tell me they´re easy. Many console games in that regard are more like cheap than hard.

So no,consoles don´t have harder games than the hardest ones on the PC,at all.

Arach666

So your saying a complex game is automatically harder than a simple one? Ever play a shmup with a rank system?

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

Maybe could you could expound and give a good reason for that, like some of the guys above did, instead of just being glib?

NEStorianPriest

Go play Starcraft 2 on Insane.

Then try playing against a korean. Its makes Insane look like Uber Easy.

So to play a difficult game on a PC I have to play against someone else?

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

Maybe could you could expound and give a good reason for that, like some of the guys above did, instead of just being glib?

NEStorianPriest

Go play Starcraft 2 on Insane.

Then try playing against a korean. Its makes Insane look like Uber Easy.

So to play a difficult game on a PC I have to play against someone else?

Nope. The single-player itself is more challenging than anything you find on consoles.

[QUOTE="Arach666"]

It´s not a matter of dificulty but of complexity.

On the PC,you have many games that are more complex than anything you´ll ever see on consoles.

Try stuff like Hearts of Iron,Europa Universalis,Arma 2,FSX and so many more and then tell me they´re easy. Many console games in that regard are more like cheap than hard.

So no,consoles don´t have harder games than the hardest ones on the PC,at all.

NEStorianPriest

So your saying a complex game is automatically harder than a simple one? Ever play a shmup with a rank system?

I think somebody mentioned this when discussing Red Orchestra 2, but I think it applies to the entire situation of PC gaming in general. As opposed to COD*, you don't "get better" through manipulation of stats and numbers (perks), but instead through manual practice. There isn't a perk to reduce bullet drop or weapon sway, just with time spent in the game you learn to master it.

"Hard" is purely psychological. Adding more enemies with more health and more damage isn't making the game harder to me, it's just more frustrating. Hard should mean "harder to master" rather than literally "having more obstacles in your way".

*Edit, said RO2 before.

Rainbow Six: Raven Shield (tactical shooter, you won't make it trough the first mission on the highest difficulty. End of disscusion, no 'but'.)

Gothic 2: Gold (punishingly hard RPG)

Total War series (complex strategy game, impossible to finish without careful planning)

Counter Strike/Counter Strike Source (needs months and months on end to be decent)

Call Of Cthulhu (survival horror, incredibly hard after a wile, dense atmosphere)

STALKER (shooter, open world, incredibly hard and hard to get into)

Izometric RPGs (Fallout 1&2, Baldur's Gate 1&2, simply brutal on higher difficulty levels, near impossible)

Far Cry (towards the end is pretty much impossible, just impossible)

Unreal Tournament 2k4 on Godlike (unplayable)

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="Arach666"]

It´s not a matter of dificulty but of complexity.

On the PC,you have many games that are more complex than anything you´ll ever see on consoles.

Try stuff like Hearts of Iron,Europa Universalis,Arma 2,FSX and so many more and then tell me they´re easy. Many console games in that regard are more like cheap than hard.

So no,consoles don´t have harder games than the hardest ones on the PC,at all.

Arach666

So your saying a complex game is automatically harder than a simple one? Ever play a shmup with a rank system?

How is it cheap? You have to perfect your skill and reaction time or you lose? So I guess fencing is cheap?

I think somebody mentioned this when discussing Red Orchestra 2, but I think it applies to the entire situation of PC gaming in general. As opposed to COD*, you don't "get better" through manipulation of stats and numbers (perks), but instead through manual practice. There isn't a perk to reduce bullet drop or weapon sway, just with time spent in the game you learn to master it.

"Hard" is purely psychological. Adding more enemies with more health and more damage isn't making the game harder to me, it's just more frustrating. Hard should mean "harder to master" rather than literally "having more obstacles in your way".

*Edit, said RO2 before.

Sharpie125

I didn't mention COD as an example. I've played COD on Veteran and it's not as hard as KZ2 on Elite. All of the games I mentioned, though, require the time to practice and master as you suggest.

The more complexity a game has, the more it requires tought put into it wile performing every single action.

[QUOTE="Arach666"]

It´s not a matter of dificulty but of complexity.

On the PC,you have many games that are more complex than anything you´ll ever see on consoles.

Try stuff like Hearts of Iron,Europa Universalis,Arma 2,FSX and so many more and then tell me they´re easy. Many console games in that regard are more like cheap than hard.

So no,consoles don´t have harder games than the hardest ones on the PC,at all.

NEStorianPriest

So your saying a complex game is automatically harder than a simple one? Ever play a shmup with a rank system?

The more complexity a game has, the more it requires tought put into it wile performing every single action.

Lucianu

By that logic, all chess players should be able to destroy at basketball, football, etc. This isn't the cvase, however, because they require different skills, abilities.

So you're really telling me that a game like Battle Garrega or SF2 Turbo is automatically easier because it isn't complex, simple as that?

How is it cheap? You have to perfect your skill and reaction time or you lose? So I guess fencing is cheap?

NEStorianPriest

Its difficulty is based on the simplest methods of artificially inflating difficulty. It requires tons of memorization and reflex reactions based on timing. The reality is that almost every one of those shumps are incrediably easy and short with perfect timing. The difficulty relies on the time invested to memorize the levels. Thats probably the lamest for of creating a challenge. They are also generally the style of difficulty that Japanese developers use. Its, in my opinon, a very antiquated form of game design.

PC does not have very many Japanese games. Its difficult games do not come in the form of cheap tricks. the harder games often require strategy and planning - not just split second decision making.

X-Com, Commandos series, Etherlords, Homeworld series, Silent Storm, Kohan: Ahriman's gift, and Independance War 2 are a few games i can think of that you would have a hard time beating even the first level.

This thread is so typical of System Wars. Someone asks a question, and then when people answer that question the OP just blindly shoots them down and doesn't listen.

Did you just want a bunch of people to agree with you?

This thread is so typical of System Wars. Someone asks a question, and then when people answer that question the OP just blindly shoots them down and doesn't listen.

Did you just want a bunch of people to agree with you?

dommeus

This answer is so typical of System Wars. Someone answers a question, and then when people read that answer the readers get all up in arms because their answer was not immediately accepted.

-.-

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

How is it cheap? You have to perfect your skill and reaction time or you lose? So I guess fencing is cheap?

XaosII

Its difficulty is based on the simplest methods of artificially inflating difficulty. It requires tons of memorization and reflex reactions based on timing. The reality is that almost every one of those shumps are incrediably easy and short with perfect timing. The difficulty relies on the time invested to memorize the levels. Thats probably the lamest for of creating a challenge. They are also generally the style of difficulty that Japanese developers use. Its, in my opinon, a very antiquated form of game design.

PC does not have very many Japanese games. Its difficult games do not come in the form of cheap tricks. the harder games often require strategy and planning - not just split second decision making.

X-Com, Commandos series, Etherlords, Homeworld series, Silent Storm, Kohan: Ahriman's gift, and Independance War 2 are a few games i can think of that you would have a hard time beating even the first level.

Regardless of how they get there, the end result is a difficult game that demands precise action. That isn't the question. The question is why are PC games not showing up on these lists, considering their made be reviewers who play multiplatform games?

[QUOTE="Sharpie125"]

I think somebody mentioned this when discussing Red Orchestra 2, but I think it applies to the entire situation of PC gaming in general. As opposed to COD*, you don't "get better" through manipulation of stats and numbers (perks), but instead through manual practice. There isn't a perk to reduce bullet drop or weapon sway, just with time spent in the game you learn to master it.

"Hard" is purely psychological. Adding more enemies with more health and more damage isn't making the game harder to me, it's just more frustrating. Hard should mean "harder to master" rather than literally "having more obstacles in your way".

*Edit, said RO2 before.

NEStorianPriest

I didn't mention COD as an example. I've played COD on Veteran and it's not as hard as KZ2 on Elite. All of the games I mentioned, though, require the time to practice and master as you suggest.

To the extent of ARMA 2 and Red Orchestra, that's just simply not the case. I just mentioned COD because it's worldly, and the fact that so many games are emulating its formula on console. Only on PC can you break away from that and have really great complex stuff. But difficulty settings aside, there is nothing to pointing and shooting. If we look at it from a stripped down standpoint, Veteran and Elite are just "harder" because enemies do more damage and have better accuracy.

In ARMA, to actually *play* the game, you need to know a ton of different functions, know basic troop movements to successfully assault a fixed position or patrol, or if you're sniping, adjust for range/windage/bullet drop. The only thing COD requires of you is to find cover when you start to bleed, but it's hand-holding the entire way.

This thread is so typical of System Wars. Someone asks a question, and then when people answer that question the OP just blindly shoots them down and doesn't listen.

Did you just want a bunch of people to agree with you?

dommeus

I've asked people to explain their answers. So I;m getting, console games are cheap, they're not complex enough, PC games are harder because they're PC games. What's happening in this thread and what you say is happening are two different things.

By that logic, all chess players should be able to destroy at basketball, football, etc. This isn't the cvase, however, because they require different skills, abilities.

So you're really telling me that a game like Battle Garrega or SF2 Turbo is automatically easier because it isn't complex, simple as that?

NEStorianPriest

.. What? How can you interpret what i said in such a way, then begin to argue with me?

There is no correlation whatsoever to what you said, and what i wrote. 'By your logic..' WHAT LOGIC?!

Did you make this thread solely to argue?

Touhou Project on Lunatic..... And old Rainbow Six games where it's one-shot one kill for everyone (and perma death for your squadmates whom you have to lead with complex before-action planning)funsohng

You die in lots of shmups when you get hit once.

Ahhh. So PC gamers ask console gamers why they like doing things a certain way and expect a response, but I don't have that luxury. eh? Interesting.

NEStorianPriest

You don't have the luxury of criticizing when you are uninformed.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

By that logic, all chess players should be able to destroy at basketball, football, etc. This isn't the cvase, however, because they require different skills, abilities.

So you're really telling me that a game like Battle Garrega or SF2 Turbo is automatically easier because it isn't complex, simple as that?

Lucianu

.. What? How can you interpret what i said in such a way, then begin to argue with me?

There is no correlation whatsoever to what you said, and what i wrote.

Did you make this thread solely to argue?

No. You said complexity was the sole cause for difficulty. Chess is more complex and requires more thinking than many physically oriented sports games.

I'm not here to just argue, I'm asking questions.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

By that logic, all chess players should be able to destroy at basketball, football, etc. This isn't the cvase, however, because they require different skills, abilities.

So you're really telling me that a game like Battle Garrega or SF2 Turbo is automatically easier because it isn't complex, simple as that?

Lucianu

.. What? How can you interpret what i said in such a way, then begin to argue with me?

There is no correlation whatsoever to what you said, and what i wrote.

Did you make this thread solely to argue?

No. You said complexity was the sole cause for difficulty.

NEStorianPriest

No. I said the more complexity a game has, the more thought it requires put into it.

And arguing is exactly what you have ben doing since the original post, despite the fact that gamers have already given you valid examples of games for you to play, and yet you have given zero grattitude.

Your posts contradict your afirmation.

[QUOTE="dommeus"]

This thread is so typical of System Wars. Someone asks a question, and then when people answer that question the OP just blindly shoots them down and doesn't listen.

Did you just want a bunch of people to agree with you?

NEStorianPriest

I've asked people to explain their answers. So I;m getting, console games are cheap, they're not complex enough, PC games are harder because they're PC games. What's happening in this thread and what you say is happening are two different things.

All systems have games that are difficult and games that are frustrating and games that are both at the same time.

The PC does have its share of all, and while I still stand that my examples are the best exampes...any game can be argued as being difficult. Basically for every game here, if you know how to play it the difficulty will be lessend but still there.

:-: Oh, and whenever you get on the bad side of the PC fanboys, just imagine that all of their replies begin with a very snooty "Well, obviously...!"

Regardless of how they get there, the end result is a difficult game that demands precise action. That isn't the question. The question is why are PC games not showing up on these lists, considering their made be reviewers who play multiplatform games?

NEStorianPriest

And thats where the difference in most PC game's difficulty. Most difficult PC games are not heavily focused on split-second reflexes (though there are definitely exceptions).

They likely aren't showing up on lists because the reviewers probably havent played them. We've been listing you games and you simply ignore the games listed because you havent even heard of those games, let alone played them. Chances are a multiplatform gamer hasnt touched many of the games listed due to their nicheness.

Try playing a few of the games mentioned and draw your own conclusion.

It actually makes some sense. Some people may be good at strategy games, but that doesn't mean there are going to automatically be better then other people at games that require more hand eye coordination or precision movements.

caseystryker

Well, ofcourse. The experience which you gain in one field, is not going to help you in another different field, wether it's working or playing games. If there is no correlation betwen these different fields.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

No. You said complexity was the sole cause for difficulty.

Lucianu

No. I said the more complexity a game has, the more thought it requires put into it.

And arguing is exactly what you have ben doing since the original post, despite the fact that gamers have already given you valid examples of games for you to play, and yet you have given zero grattitude.

Your posts contradict your afirmation.

My original post addresses the fact that PC games are not on many hardest game of all time lists, I ask people for hard PC games and I ask they express their thoughts about PC games being more or less difficult.

As far as I can tell, we are having a conversation. People are giving reasons and I am asking them to explain them. No name calling, no trash talk about PC games. Just questions ans answers. If you don't like it don't post.

And since when was gratitude required? I'm showing no disrespect just because I'm not saying thanks for every answer. Who does that in SW?

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

Regardless of how they get there, the end result is a difficult game that demands precise action. That isn't the question. The question is why are PC games not showing up on these lists, considering their made be reviewers who play multiplatform games?

XaosII

And thats where the difference in most PC game's difficulty. Most difficult PC games are not heavily focused on split-second reflexes (though there are definitely exceptions).

They likely aren't showing up on lists because the reviewers probably havent played them. We've been listing you games and you simply ignore the games listed because you havent even heard of those games, let alone played them. Chances are a multiplatform gamer hasnt touched many of the games listed due to their nicheness.

Try playing a few of the games mentioned and draw your own conclusion.

I'm not ignoring games, though I am questioning some of the reasons for why some people think PC games are harder than all console games. Its natural to do so. I am looking for a discussion on the differences between difficult games on both platforms, and the opinions about which platform has the most difficult games. We've only heard from a few PC gamers, and virtually no console gamers. So I'm supposed to close up shop right away before more people weigh in just because you say so?

The gaming press made a big to do about Demon;s Souls and it's grueling difficulty and unforgiving game design. I have'nt seen anything like it in a good while. So where are the reviews of PC games that make the same claims?

The toughest PC game I've played would probably be one of the Theif games.

My original post addresses the fact that PC games are not on many hardest game of all time lists, I ask people for hard PC games and I ask they express their thoughts about PC games being more or less difficult.

As far as I can tell, we are having a conversation. People are giving reasons and I am asking them to explain them. No name calling, no trash talk about PC games. Just questions ans answers. If you don't like it don't post.

And since when was gratitude required? I'm showing no disrespect just because I'm not saying thanks for every answer. Who does that in SW?

NEStorianPriest

And your posts, still, contradict your afirmation, not to mention the fact that you have ben wrongly interpreting what people wrote by adding your own set of questions which have no correlation with anything.

And i never said gratitude was required. There, done it again.

Oh i like posting in threads. That's why i'm here.

I'm not ignoring games, though I am questioning some of the reasons for why some people think PC games are harder than all console games. Its natural to do so. I am looking for a discussion on the differences between difficult games on both platforms, and the opinions about which platform has the most difficult games. We've only heard from a few PC gamers, and virtually no console gamers. So I'm supposed to close up shop right away before more people weigh in just because you say so?

The gaming press made a big to do about Demon;s Souls and it's grueling difficulty and unforgiving game design. I have'nt seen anything like it in a good while. So where are the reviews of PC games that make the same claims?

NEStorianPriest

As i said before, its a different type of difficulty, usually. The hardest games (i know of) are fairly niche titles that i dont expect even most PC-only gamers to have played. Out of curiosity, what's the hardest PC game you've felt you've played?

Demon's Souls is another Japanese game relying on many of the same antiquated game design mechanics. Its difficulty stems from frustration not challenge. there are also speed runs of the game being beaten in less than an hour relying on exploiting level design (boo for the player!) and lots of level memorization (boo on the developers!)

Difficult games on PC?

ARMA, just about any roguelike (I like Nethack), I wanna be the guy, X-COM (especially Terror of the Deep (I dont know about you guys, but I found the easiest setting on that game to be harder than most "hard" console games)), SHMUPs, EVE Online, any game made by Paradox interactive. I am sure I can come up with more but that will do, I linked the games that are freeware.

Oh and all these are harder than Demon's Souls btw. Especially I wanna be the guy. Nethack and other roguelikes are incredibly punishing. Even Mount and Blade is considerably more challanging, with your (non-hero) soldiers dying permanently where they need to be replaced with tier 1s, permanent gear loss upon losing battles, permanent stat loss after dying, complete lack of healing items, dying in 1-3 shots. Actually Demon's Souls was a very easy game where damage is effortlessly healed, enemies are slow and begging to be killed, and boss patterns are easily learnt.

No the definition of arguing is trying to convince people to see my way. I am asking people to elaborate on their answers, because for the most part I'm getting things like- they're more complex, therefore they are more difficult. My opinion is that console games are more difficult because they require quikc response to the allegedly cheap game design. PC games either seem to be more about attrittion or management. Regardless, PC games are not be lauded for their difficulty as widely as console games are.

I'll point out the fact thatno one has even bothered to ask my definition of what makes a game difficult, they automatically dismiss my claim that console games might be more difficult because they are "simple".So who is arguing?

Also, what did you mean to convey to me by telling me I didn't even bother to show gratitude? The tone of your phrase was that I should be doing so. So why ese mention it?