Are there any difficult PC games?

crimzon clover

anytouhou installment (I'm sure you know of these seeing as you listed battle garegga)

quake live/tfc/warsow

a lot of the hard shmups are on japanese 360 now (but there's some region-free ones too). Seeing as you're a garegga fan you should check out some other shinobu yagawa games). Muchi Muchi Pork/Pink Sweets was just released (region-free) on 360 and it's insanely difficult. If you have a japanese 360, he also developed the end bosses in dodonpachi daifukkatsu black label (the disc based version with the ketsupachi arrange mode).

we can always hope for an ibara/ibara kuro port in 2012 too (seeing as akai katana shin is one of Cave's last shmup ports this year but supposedly yagawa worked on that too)

...try a Diablo II run on Hell. Or Civ V on Deity! Either will work.R3FURBISHED

D2 on hell is easy if you're a hammerdin with engima :P

crimzon clover

anytouhou installment (I'm sure you know of these seeing as you listed battle garegga)

quake live/tfc/warsow

a lot of the hard shmups are on japanese 360 now (but there's some region-free ones too). Seeing as you're a garegga fan you should check out some other shinobu yagawa games). Muchi Muchi Pork/Pink Sweets was just released (region-free) on 360 and it's insanely difficult. If you have a japanese 360, he also developed the end bosses in dodonpachi daifukkatsu black label (the disc based version with the ketsupachi arrange mode).

we can always hope for an ibara/ibara kuro port in 2012 too (seeing as akai katana shin is one of Cave's last shmup ports this year but supposedly yagawa worked on that too)

Some-Mist

@crimson clover I just came.

No I didn't know about the touhou games. These games look tough to get ahold of, and am I right in reading that you actually purchase continues for crimson clover? Brutal indeed.

[QUOTE="Some-Mist"]

crimzon clover

anytouhou installment (I'm sure you know of these seeing as you listed battle garegga)

quake live/tfc/warsow

a lot of the hard shmups are on japanese 360 now (but there's some region-free ones too). Seeing as you're a garegga fan you should check out some other shinobu yagawa games). Muchi Muchi Pork/Pink Sweets was just released (region-free) on 360 and it's insanely difficult. If you have a japanese 360, he also developed the end bosses in dodonpachi daifukkatsu black label (the disc based version with the ketsupachi arrange mode).

we can always hope for an ibara/ibara kuro port in 2012 too (seeing as akai katana shin is one of Cave's last shmup ports this year but supposedly yagawa worked on that too)

NEStorianPriest

@crimson clover I just came.

No I didn't know about the touhou games. These games look tough to get ahold of, and am I right in reading that you actually purchase continues for crimson clover? Brutal indeed.

there's a money system in the game (syncs with the scoring system). You can try it out for a free trial but it's on a japanese site. I believe you only have to pay for it once, but I got it by other 'means'. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrimzonClover

the shmup fans in different communities have been going crazy for this game. It's truly great.

Play counter strike, come back, and tell me you can get a kill.

Or play cod2 rifles mods, come back, and tell me your the last person on the scoreboard.

To answer the topic question, yes, there are difficult PC games. In fact, not only are there a lot more difficult games on the PC than on consoles, certain games are exponentially harder some of the console games considered 'hard'.

I've noticed there's a misconception that difficult PC games are only 'strategically hard' whereas console games are 'twitch hard'. The fact of the matter is, there are quite a lot of PC games that also require fast reflexes and quick thinking. Most FPS games on the PC require far more precision and fast reflexes than FPSes on consoles, as well as other non-fps console games. Counterstrike: Source and Unreal Tournament 2k4 are incredibly fast paced, and you need to know the level layout and anticipate where the action will be. Starcraft is similar in that a significant portion of a person's mastery is dictated by his/her APM (actions per minute), essentially how fast you can play minute-to-minute gameplay.

Of course, the PC isn't only famous for it's twitch-based difficulties. The strategic challenges that are present on PC games are almost non-existent on consoles. Strategy games from as 'accessible' as the Total War series to as hardcore as the Europa Universalis series are known to have incredible learning curves to master the games. Furthermore, these games which require lateral thinking are sometimes coupled with the twitch based gameplay: the original Team Fortress both required immense reflexes, knowledge of the map, and a large co-ordinated strategy to beat the opposition. Warcraft 3 marries micro-management gameplay with its plethora of unique strategies which has made it a long stay for the genre.

So yeah, there are difficult PC games.

FrozenLiquid

Thanks for your intelligent, well thought out and informative post. And after only 8 pages! Also thanks to Arach666 and the Sierra dude for hanging around and discussing things. Off to bed but hoping to read more tomorrow. Getting a new perspective on PC games. Really, I've always thought most FPSs were pretty much the same as far as difficulty goes with the exception of Arma/Operation Flashpoint (I own Dragon Rising, and yes I understand that it supposed to be watered down). Not feelin much love for PvP FPS, but some interesting single player FPS have been mentioned.

Play counter strike, come back, and tell me you can get a kill.

Or play cod2 rifles mods, come back, and tell me your the last person on the scoreboard.

sethman410

Um, a kill? Please dude I didn't just get yanked out of a uterus. I can actually play games. No need to be harsh.

[QUOTE="sethman410"]

Play counter strike, come back, and tell me you can get a kill.

Or play cod2 rifles mods, come back, and tell me your the last person on the scoreboard.

NEStorianPriest

Um, a kill? Please dude I didn't just get yanked out of a uterus. I can actually play games. No need to be harsh.

Drakensang, an old-school RPG. It has a tremendous amount of stats to deal with, and if you choose the wrong ones, it is very easy for your party to die.

I Wanna Be The Guy?

Many dos games were difficult. When I was a kid, I played m&m 4, my party met a vulture in desert, then all of us died. Or M&M 6 with the dungeons that had knights in it, or some random werewolves, or dragons living in desert. In power doll 2, I had problem landing a plane... and completing a successful missions was just nearly impossible (the difficulties had been dumbed down in the later series).

Some games like Disciple 2 were punishing rather than difficult. In the campaign once you reach the next chapter, you'll have your hero inherited, and some weak units would be given to you, while npc are replenished with well leveled mobs. (HOMM campaign also had this) :?

even Wow was hard at one stage

Naxx 40 was way too hard

If you are simply wondering why there are few PC games on these lists (which lists exactly, I wonder?) then the answer should be obvious. Gaming news in general is dominated by console games because console games are played far more widely. Therefore it follows that many game journalists would be console enthusiasts and as a result focus on console games and multiplats (which they have played), and not on less popular but far more complex and intelligent PC games (which they have not played).

If you are simply wondering why there are few PC games on these lists (which lists exactly, I wonder?) then the answer should be obvious. Gaming news in general is dominated by console games because console games are played far more widely. Therefore it follows that many game journalists would be console enthusiasts and as a result focus on console games and multiplats (which they have played), and not on less popular but far more complex and intelligent PC games (which they have not played).

Brendissimo35

With so many multi-plat publications, I have a hard time swallowing that. Demon's Souls was a niche game and it managed to become game of the year. If a game is really hard, people are going to talk about it, and with so many people out there playing both consoles and PCs, I expected to see more PC games show up in these lists, regardless of whether they were written by professionals.

Most lists I see for hardest PC only games list FPS games and RTS. I don't get how people think FPS are the hardest. I've never played an FPS I haven;t beaten. I have played 8 bit games on the NES that made me throw in the towel. Again, I'm not arguing about cheapness or complexity, I'm talking about how hard is it to get through the game.

Also, people are thorwing up M&M games, and personally I did not find them as difficult as agmes like Mega Man 2, Battletoads, or even Siren for the PS2. M&M games were great, but not among the hardest games of all time.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="sethman410"]

Play counter strike, come back, and tell me you can get a kill.

Or play cod2 rifles mods, come back, and tell me your the last person on the scoreboard.

sethman410

Um, a kill? Please dude I didn't just get yanked out of a uterus. I can actually play games. No need to be harsh.

Counterstrike is a PvP game. What makes it automatically harder than playing a PvP FPS on a console? If anything, a console game should be harder because of the awkward controller, as all PC gamers attest that m/kb is much more precise.

This kind of comment makes me think PC gamers believe their games are harder simply because they are on PC. People are dismissing the difficulty of games like Gradius and Mega Man 2, and trying to convinve me that FPS games on the PC are more difficult. I have a hard time believing anyone who hasa lot of experience playing games from the 8 bit era would make a claim like this.

Take Deadly Towers. This game was a nightmare, from many perspectives, game desing being one of them. However, I beat it when I was 11. I didn't complain that the designers were lazy and stop playing for that reason alone. Despite its flaws, it is still one of the hardest, most unforgiving games ever made. I wish people would stop getting caught up in snobbery and just make fair comparisons.

[QUOTE="sethman410"]

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

Um, a kill? Please dude I didn't just get yanked out of a uterus. I can actually play games. No need to be harsh.

NEStorianPriest

Counterstrike is a PvP game. What makes it automatically harder than playing a PvP FPS on a console? If anything, a console game should be harder because of the awkward controller, as all PC gamers attest that m/kb is much more precise.

In consoles because of the controller everyone is limited not only you and console fps games are designed to not be so much about accuracy like cs is. Thus games are more forgiving for a newbie. In counter strike because of mouse, accuracy is much more important and if you're not used to fps in PC you'll get frustrated a lot.

[QUOTE="Brendissimo35"]

If you are simply wondering why there are few PC games on these lists (which lists exactly, I wonder?) then the answer should be obvious. Gaming news in general is dominated by console games because console games are played far more widely. Therefore it follows that many game journalists would be console enthusiasts and as a result focus on console games and multiplats (which they have played), and not on less popular but far more complex and intelligent PC games (which they have not played).

NEStorianPriest

With so many multi-plat publications, I have a hard time swallowing that. Demon's Souls was a niche game and it managed to become game of the year. If a game is really hard, people are going to talk about it, and with so many people out there playing both consoles and PCs, I expected to see more PC games show up in these lists, regardless of whether they were written by professionals.

Most lists I see for hardest PC only games list FPS games and RTS. I don't get how people think FPS are the hardest. I've never played an FPS I haven;t beaten. I have played 8 bit games on the NES that made me throw in the towel. Again, I'm not arguing about cheapness or complexity, I'm talking about how hard is it to get through the game.

Also, people are thorwing up M&M games, and personally I did not find them as difficult as agmes like Mega Man 2, Battletoads, or even Siren for the PS2. M&M games were great, but not among the hardest games of all time.

It's actually not that difficult to accept. Why are top ten films of every year generally dominated by Hollywood movies? Hollywood produces but a fraction of movies made every year, and if the Cannes film festival, Venice film festival, and Berlin film festival are any indication, the best films are currently coming from Europe and Asia. Yet when you type in 'top ten films of 2010' and skim through all of them, the lists are dominated by the films with the most hype i.e Hollywood movies.

In the same manner that film analyses are skewed by hype and advertising (and Hollywood does this better than all of world cinema combined), console gaming gets far greater advertising and press than PC gaming. Yes, PC gaming is there and gets a mention, just like most of world cinema. But unfortunately, the hype train makes no reservations for those without money.

As for you not understanding how FPS games and RTS games are hard, unfortunately, it's only anecdotal evidence which comes up short under scrutiny. The fact of the matter is, they are difficult, no matter how you cut it.

There are so many examples of PC franchises which had to become easier with consoles in mind. Crysis to Crysis 2 is the most recent example. The Rainbow Six games are another example. Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 1 & 2 on the 360/PS3are blockbuster shooter games. GRAW 1 & 2 on the PC was actually docked off points on this website for being much too difficult just to cater to the PC crowd. Then there's RPGs such as KOTOR, which were much easier versions of Bioware's previous PC RPG efforts, so much so that Bioware promised a return to challenging gameplay in the form of Dragon Age: Origins.

Despite me saying all this, I hope you realize there's a Ninja Gaiden signature just below. Yes, I love difficult games on all platforms. It's more than fair to say the PC has the most difficult ones out of all systems, despite not getting many mentions in whatever game lists.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="sethman410"] Have you ever played counter strike? I mean it's really hard to get a kill for first timers. Sure you might get a kill, but no more than 2 or 3 for the first time. Seriously, you won't get a kill until a couple of rounds or even 2 matches.

edidili

Counterstrike is a PvP game. What makes it automatically harder than playing a PvP FPS on a console? If anything, a console game should be harder because of the awkward controller, as all PC gamers attest that m/kb is much more precise.

In consoles because of the controller everyone is limited not only you and console fps games are designed to not be so much about accuracy like cs is. Thus games are more forgiving for a newbie. In counter strike because of mouse, accuracy is much more important and if you're not used to fps in PC you'll get frustrated a lot.

I don't ever remember missing in Goldeneye and getting rewarded with a headshot. If I miss in Killzone 2 the Helghan just don't lay down and play dead. Really, I don't get what you're trying to say. How is accuracy more important in PC FPS games?

Counterstrike is a PvP game. What makes it automatically harder than playing a PvP FPS on a console? If anything, a console game should be harder because of the awkward controller, as all PC gamers attest that m/kb is much more precise.

This kind of comment makes me think PC gamers believe their games are harder simply because they are on PC. People are dismissing the difficulty of games like Gradius and Mega Man 2, and trying to convinve me that FPS games on the PC are more difficult. I have a hard time believing anyone who hasa lot of experience playing games from the 8 bit era would make a claim like this.

Take Deadly Towers. This game was a nightmare, from many perspectives, game desing being one of them. However, I beat it when I was 11. I didn't complain that the designers were lazy and stop playing for that reason alone. Despite its flaws, it is still one of the hardest, most unforgiving games ever made. I wish people would stop getting caught up in snobbery and just make fair comparisons.

NEStorianPriest

Whether a game is multiplayer or not does not exclude it from being considered difficult. Suppose I say Demon's Souls is laterally PvP in the way you can help/trick other players in their own game. You'll automatically say 'but it's limited in multiplayer, and therefore negligible'. Perhaps, but nevertheless you would be setting the boundaries for what can and cannot be considered a difficult game, and unfairly no one else would be setting the parameters for what games can be considered difficult. Such a tactic is folly in good argumentation, and certainly does not help the ultimate question 'Are there any difficult PC games?'.

I'm slightly concerned with what your true intent is in this thread, though I do give you the benefit of the doubt. Certainly the question has been answered 'Are there any difficult PC games' — to which the answer was 'yes' — however trivializing the answer does not help either party. I'd hope that you are trying to get to the truth of the matter, not trying to get to the truth as you see fit.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="Brendissimo35"]

If you are simply wondering why there are few PC games on these lists (which lists exactly, I wonder?) then the answer should be obvious. Gaming news in general is dominated by console games because console games are played far more widely. Therefore it follows that many game journalists would be console enthusiasts and as a result focus on console games and multiplats (which they have played), and not on less popular but far more complex and intelligent PC games (which they have not played).

FrozenLiquid

With so many multi-plat publications, I have a hard time swallowing that. Demon's Souls was a niche game and it managed to become game of the year. If a game is really hard, people are going to talk about it, and with so many people out there playing both consoles and PCs, I expected to see more PC games show up in these lists, regardless of whether they were written by professionals.

Most lists I see for hardest PC only games list FPS games and RTS. I don't get how people think FPS are the hardest. I've never played an FPS I haven;t beaten. I have played 8 bit games on the NES that made me throw in the towel. Again, I'm not arguing about cheapness or complexity, I'm talking about how hard is it to get through the game.

Also, people are thorwing up M&M games, and personally I did not find them as difficult as agmes like Mega Man 2, Battletoads, or even Siren for the PS2. M&M games were great, but not among the hardest games of all time.

It's actually not that difficult to accept. Why are top ten films of every year generally dominated by Hollywood movies? Hollywood produces but a fraction of movies made every year, and if the Cannes film festival, Venice film festival, and Berlin film festival are any indication, the best films are currently coming from Europe and Asia. Yet when you type in 'top ten films of 2010' and skim through all of them, the lists are dominated by the films with the most hype i.e Hollywood movies.

In the same manner that film analyses are skewed by hype and advertising (and Hollywood does this better than all of world cinema combined), console gaming gets far greater advertising and press than PC gaming. Yes, PC gaming is there and gets a mention, just like most of world cinema. But unfortunately, the hype train makes no reservations for those without money.

As for you not understanding how FPS games and RTS games are hard, unfortunately, it's only anecdotal evidence which comes up short under scrutiny. The fact of the matter is, they are difficult, no matter how you cut it.

There are so many examples of PC franchises which had to become easier with consoles in mind. Crysis to Crysis 2 is the most recent example. The Rainbow Six games are another example. Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 1 & 2 are blockbuster shooter games. GRAW 1 & 2 on the PC was actually docked off points on this website for being much too difficult just to cater to the PC crowd. Then there's RPGs such as KOTOR, which were much easier versions of Bioware's previous PC RPG efforts, so much so that Bioware promised a return to challenging gameplay in the form of Dragon Age: Origins.

Despite me saying all this, I hope you realize there's a Ninja Gaiden signature just below. Yes, I love difficult games on all platforms. It's more than fair to say the PC has the most difficult ones out of all systems, despite not getting many mentions in whatever game lists.

Yes I did recognize your sig. You make some good points, but just as Demon's Souls got game of the year, The King's Speech won the Oscar.

And I don't mean to argue with you, but my wife got every single trophy for DA:O. She doesn't play that many games. I've also played it, but I didn't find it that challenging, even with friendly fire. Any game when you can save as often as you like, stock up on health, and restart without having to go back and cover massive amounts of ground gained- to me that's not really difficult. As I said, that is attrition based gaming.

[QUOTE="XaosII"]

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

How is it cheap? You have to perfect your skill and reaction time or you lose? So I guess fencing is cheap?

NEStorianPriest

Its difficulty is based on the simplest methods of artificially inflating difficulty. It requires tons of memorization and reflex reactions based on timing. The reality is that almost every one of those shumps are incrediably easy and short with perfect timing. The difficulty relies on the time invested to memorize the levels. Thats probably the lamest for of creating a challenge. They are also generally the style of difficulty that Japanese developers use. Its, in my opinon, a very antiquated form of game design.

PC does not have very many Japanese games. Its difficult games do not come in the form of cheap tricks. the harder games often require strategy and planning - not just split second decision making.

X-Com, Commandos series, Etherlords, Homeworld series, Silent Storm, Kohan: Ahriman's gift, and Independance War 2 are a few games i can think of that you would have a hard time beating even the first level.

Regardless of how they get there, the end result is a difficult game that demands precise action. That isn't the question. The question is why are PC games not showing up on these lists, considering their made be reviewers who play multiplatform games?

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

Counterstrike is a PvP game. What makes it automatically harder than playing a PvP FPS on a console? If anything, a console game should be harder because of the awkward controller, as all PC gamers attest that m/kb is much more precise.

This kind of comment makes me think PC gamers believe their games are harder simply because they are on PC. People are dismissing the difficulty of games like Gradius and Mega Man 2, and trying to convinve me that FPS games on the PC are more difficult. I have a hard time believing anyone who hasa lot of experience playing games from the 8 bit era would make a claim like this.

Take Deadly Towers. This game was a nightmare, from many perspectives, game desing being one of them. However, I beat it when I was 11. I didn't complain that the designers were lazy and stop playing for that reason alone. Despite its flaws, it is still one of the hardest, most unforgiving games ever made. I wish people would stop getting caught up in snobbery and just make fair comparisons.

FrozenLiquid

Whether a game is multiplayer or not does not exclude it from being considered difficult. Suppose I say Demon's Souls is laterally PvP in the way you can help/trick other players in their own game. You'll automatically say 'but it's limited in multiplayer, and therefore negligible'. Perhaps, but nevertheless you would be setting the boundaries for what can and cannot be considered a difficult game, and unfairly no one else would be setting the parameters for what games can be considered difficult. Such a tactic is folly in good argumentation, and certainly does not help the ultimate question 'Are there any difficult PC games?'.

I'm slightly concerned with what your true intent is in this thread, though I do give you the benefit of the doubt. Certainly the question has been answered 'Are there any difficult PC games' — to which the answer was 'yes' — however trivializing the answer does not help either party. I'd hope that you are trying to get to the truth of the matter, not trying to get to the truth as you see fit.

You do realize I asked another question in my opening paragraph, which was do you think console games are more difficult? A lot of people are skipping that and just knee jerking to the title of the thread. I am interested in the response to both questions. I just feel that few people have given good reasons why consoel gaming is not harder.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="XaosII"]

Its difficulty is based on the simplest methods of artificially inflating difficulty. It requires tons of memorization and reflex reactions based on timing. The reality is that almost every one of those shumps are incrediably easy and short with perfect timing. The difficulty relies on the time invested to memorize the levels. Thats probably the lamest for of creating a challenge. They are also generally the style of difficulty that Japanese developers use. Its, in my opinon, a very antiquated form of game design.

PC does not have very many Japanese games. Its difficult games do not come in the form of cheap tricks. the harder games often require strategy and planning - not just split second decision making.

X-Com, Commandos series, Etherlords, Homeworld series, Silent Storm, Kohan: Ahriman's gift, and Independance War 2 are a few games i can think of that you would have a hard time beating even the first level.

Birdy09

Regardless of how they get there, the end result is a difficult game that demands precise action. That isn't the question. The question is why are PC games not showing up on these lists, considering their made be reviewers who play multiplatform games?

I'm also looking at lists on gamer blogs, and from users on places like Gamefaqs, etc. Not just professional reviews.

[QUOTE="sethman410"]

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

Um, a kill? Please dude I didn't just get yanked out of a uterus. I can actually play games. No need to be harsh.

NEStorianPriest

Counterstrike is a PvP game. What makes it automatically harder than playing a PvP FPS on a console? If anything, a console game should be harder because of the awkward controller, as all PC gamers attest that m/kb is much more precise.

This kind of comment makes me think PC gamers believe their games are harder simply because they are on PC. People are dismissing the difficulty of games like Gradius and Mega Man 2, and trying to convinve me that FPS games on the PC are more difficult. I have a hard time believing anyone who hasa lot of experience playing games from the 8 bit era would make a claim like this.

Take Deadly Towers. This game was a nightmare, from many perspectives, game desing being one of them. However, I beat it when I was 11. I didn't complain that the designers were lazy and stop playing for that reason alone. Despite its flaws, it is still one of the hardest, most unforgiving games ever made. I wish people would stop getting caught up in snobbery and just make fair comparisons.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

Counterstrike is a PvP game. What makes it automatically harder than playing a PvP FPS on a console? If anything, a console game should be harder because of the awkward controller, as all PC gamers attest that m/kb is much more precise.

This kind of comment makes me think PC gamers believe their games are harder simply because they are on PC. People are dismissing the difficulty of games like Gradius and Mega Man 2, and trying to convinve me that FPS games on the PC are more difficult. I have a hard time believing anyone who hasa lot of experience playing games from the 8 bit era would make a claim like this.

Take Deadly Towers. This game was a nightmare, from many perspectives, game desing being one of them. However, I beat it when I was 11. I didn't complain that the designers were lazy and stop playing for that reason alone. Despite its flaws, it is still one of the hardest, most unforgiving games ever made. I wish people would stop getting caught up in snobbery and just make fair comparisons.

NEStorianPriest

Whether a game is multiplayer or not does not exclude it from being considered difficult. Suppose I say Demon's Souls is laterally PvP in the way you can help/trick other players in their own game. You'll automatically say 'but it's limited in multiplayer, and therefore negligible'. Perhaps, but nevertheless you would be setting the boundaries for what can and cannot be considered a difficult game, and unfairly no one else would be setting the parameters for what games can be considered difficult. Such a tactic is folly in good argumentation, and certainly does not help the ultimate question 'Are there any difficult PC games?'.

I'm slightly concerned with what your true intent is in this thread, though I do give you the benefit of the doubt. Certainly the question has been answered 'Are there any difficult PC games' - to which the answer was 'yes' - however trivializing the answer does not help either party. I'd hope that you are trying to get to the truth of the matter, not trying to get to the truth as you see fit.

You do realize I asked another question in my opening paragraph, which was do you think console games are more difficult? A lot of people are skipping that and just knee jerking to the title of the thread. I am interested in the response to both questions. I just feel that few people have given good reasons why consoel gaming is not harder.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

Counterstrike is a PvP game. What makes it automatically harder than playing a PvP FPS on a console? If anything, a console game should be harder because of the awkward controller, as all PC gamers attest that m/kb is much more precise.

This kind of comment makes me think PC gamers believe their games are harder simply because they are on PC. People are dismissing the difficulty of games like Gradius and Mega Man 2, and trying to convinve me that FPS games on the PC are more difficult. I have a hard time believing anyone who hasa lot of experience playing games from the 8 bit era would make a claim like this.

Take Deadly Towers. This game was a nightmare, from many perspectives, game desing being one of them. However, I beat it when I was 11. I didn't complain that the designers were lazy and stop playing for that reason alone. Despite its flaws, it is still one of the hardest, most unforgiving games ever made. I wish people would stop getting caught up in snobbery and just make fair comparisons.

NEStorianPriest

Whether a game is multiplayer or not does not exclude it from being considered difficult. Suppose I say Demon's Souls is laterally PvP in the way you can help/trick other players in their own game. You'll automatically say 'but it's limited in multiplayer, and therefore negligible'. Perhaps, but nevertheless you would be setting the boundaries for what can and cannot be considered a difficult game, and unfairly no one else would be setting the parameters for what games can be considered difficult. Such a tactic is folly in good argumentation, and certainly does not help the ultimate question 'Are there any difficult PC games?'.

I'm slightly concerned with what your true intent is in this thread, though I do give you the benefit of the doubt. Certainly the question has been answered 'Are there any difficult PC games' — to which the answer was 'yes' — however trivializing the answer does not help either party. I'd hope that you are trying to get to the truth of the matter, not trying to get to the truth as you see fit.

You do realize I asked another question in my opening paragraph, which was do you think console games are more difficult? A lot of people are skipping that and just knee jerking to the title of the thread. I am interested in the response to both questions. I just feel that few people have given good reasons why consoel gaming is not harder. Also, I'm seeing responses from some users who I have frequently participated in console hate threads, or typically bash consoles or make disparaging remarks to console users.

When I asked who has played games like Mega Man and other 8 bit games I'm getting, "No, I mainly played PC rpgs back then." Those were certainly good games, but no where near as challenging as console platformers were. So I'm hoping for more feedback.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="sethman410"] Have you ever played counter strike? I mean it's really hard to get a kill for first timers. Sure you might get a kill, but no more than 2 or 3 for the first time. Seriously, you won't get a kill until a couple of rounds or even 2 matches.

Tjumph

Counterstrike is a PvP game. What makes it automatically harder than playing a PvP FPS on a console? If anything, a console game should be harder because of the awkward controller, as all PC gamers attest that m/kb is much more precise.

This kind of comment makes me think PC gamers believe their games are harder simply because they are on PC. People are dismissing the difficulty of games like Gradius and Mega Man 2, and trying to convinve me that FPS games on the PC are more difficult. I have a hard time believing anyone who hasa lot of experience playing games from the 8 bit era would make a claim like this.

Take Deadly Towers. This game was a nightmare, from many perspectives, game desing being one of them. However, I beat it when I was 11. I didn't complain that the designers were lazy and stop playing for that reason alone. Despite its flaws, it is still one of the hardest, most unforgiving games ever made. I wish people would stop getting caught up in snobbery and just make fair comparisons.

I'm not talking noob vs veteran, I;m talking how hard is it to finish a game.

Actually, your gaming skills get worse as you get older. Hotz was much younger than a lot of hackers out there and look what he did. There are elementary school kids that can o advanced calculus. Age doesn't have much to do with skill, unless you're talking toddlers.

[QUOTE="Tjumph"][QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

Counterstrike is a PvP game. What makes it automatically harder than playing a PvP FPS on a console? If anything, a console game should be harder because of the awkward controller, as all PC gamers attest that m/kb is much more precise.

This kind of comment makes me think PC gamers believe their games are harder simply because they are on PC. People are dismissing the difficulty of games like Gradius and Mega Man 2, and trying to convinve me that FPS games on the PC are more difficult. I have a hard time believing anyone who hasa lot of experience playing games from the 8 bit era would make a claim like this.

Take Deadly Towers. This game was a nightmare, from many perspectives, game desing being one of them. However, I beat it when I was 11. I didn't complain that the designers were lazy and stop playing for that reason alone. Despite its flaws, it is still one of the hardest, most unforgiving games ever made. I wish people would stop getting caught up in snobbery and just make fair comparisons.

NEStorianPriest

I'm not talking noob vs veteran, I;m talking how hard is it to finish a game.

Actually, your gaming skills get worse as you get older. Hotz was much younger than a lot of hackers out there and look what he did. There are elementary school kids that can o advanced calculus. Age doesn't have much to do with skill, unless you're talking toddlers.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

Whether a game is multiplayer or not does not exclude it from being considered difficult. Suppose I say Demon's Souls is laterally PvP in the way you can help/trick other players in their own game. You'll automatically say 'but it's limited in multiplayer, and therefore negligible'. Perhaps, but nevertheless you would be setting the boundaries for what can and cannot be considered a difficult game, and unfairly no one else would be setting the parameters for what games can be considered difficult. Such a tactic is folly in good argumentation, and certainly does not help the ultimate question 'Are there any difficult PC games?'.

I'm slightly concerned with what your true intent is in this thread, though I do give you the benefit of the doubt. Certainly the question has been answered 'Are there any difficult PC games' - to which the answer was 'yes' - however trivializing the answer does not help either party. I'd hope that you are trying to get to the truth of the matter, not trying to get to the truth as you see fit.

Birdy09

You do realize I asked another question in my opening paragraph, which was do you think console games are more difficult? A lot of people are skipping that and just knee jerking to the title of the thread. I am interested in the response to both questions. I just feel that few people have given good reasons why consoel gaming is not harder.

Actually, I have given reasons why these console games are harder to beat. The lack of a save function in many of these odler games, the lack of unlimited continues as is ubiquitous in modern gaming, "cheap" game design where you have to perform precise actions with the correct timing or you fail, no second place prize, and the lack of an adjustable difficulty, like in Gradius. If you couldn't do it, you couldn't do it. End fo story. In modern shooters if you die you only have to replay a fraction of the game. With most of the games I'm talking about, Like Ninja Gaiden, when you died you started over from the beginning of the leel, or game over and you start from scratch. In my opinion these games are more demanding and take more discipline to finish.

[QUOTE="Tjumph"][QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

Counterstrike is a PvP game. What makes it automatically harder than playing a PvP FPS on a console? If anything, a console game should be harder because of the awkward controller, as all PC gamers attest that m/kb is much more precise.

This kind of comment makes me think PC gamers believe their games are harder simply because they are on PC. People are dismissing the difficulty of games like Gradius and Mega Man 2, and trying to convinve me that FPS games on the PC are more difficult. I have a hard time believing anyone who hasa lot of experience playing games from the 8 bit era would make a claim like this.

Take Deadly Towers. This game was a nightmare, from many perspectives, game desing being one of them. However, I beat it when I was 11. I didn't complain that the designers were lazy and stop playing for that reason alone. Despite its flaws, it is still one of the hardest, most unforgiving games ever made. I wish people would stop getting caught up in snobbery and just make fair comparisons.

NEStorianPriest

I'm not talking noob vs veteran, I;m talking how hard is it to finish a game.

Actually, your gaming skills get worse as you get older. Hotz was much younger than a lot of hackers out there and look what he did. There are elementary school kids that can o advanced calculus. Age doesn't have much to do with skill, unless you're talking toddlers.

[QUOTE="Birdy09"][QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

You do realize I asked another question in my opening paragraph, which was do you think console games are more difficult? A lot of people are skipping that and just knee jerking to the title of the thread. I am interested in the response to both questions. I just feel that few people have given good reasons why consoel gaming is not harder.

NEStorianPriest

Actually, I have given reasons why these console games are harder to beat. The lack of a save function in many of these odler games, the lack of unlimited continues as is ubiquitous in modern gaming, "cheap" game design where you have to perform precise actions with the correct timing or you fail, no second place prize, and the lack of an adjustable difficulty, like in Gradius. If you couldn't do it, you couldn't do it. End fo story. In modern shooters if you die you only have to replay a fraction of the game. With most of the games I'm talking about, Like Ninja Gaiden, when you died you started over from the beginning of the leel, or game over and you start from scratch. In my opinion these games are more demanding and take more discipline to finish.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="Tjumph"] Have you ever played CS? Your claim that every PvP game is equally hard just because it is PvP doesn't make sence. For example a avarage COD player VS someone who hasn't played COD ever, I'm pretty sure that the newbie is getting in some kills. 1/10 k/d seems a believable score since i had this situation with me against some friends a few times. Now take a avarage CS vs someone who never hasn't played CS ever, the newbie is going to get a score that is FAR worse. Furthermore to comment on that 8-bit area, those games were much more reliant on luck and knowing certain tricks to avoid sh*t hen on skill. 11 year olds finishing extremely difficult 8-bit games exist but i never heard of 11 year olds getting awsome scores in PvP games, doesn't something seem off here?DragonfireXZ95

I'm not talking noob vs veteran, I;m talking how hard is it to finish a game.

Actually, your gaming skills get worse as you get older. Hotz was much younger than a lot of hackers out there and look what he did. There are elementary school kids that can o advanced calculus. Age doesn't have much to do with skill, unless you're talking toddlers.

I was beating bothe quests of Zelda with no deaths when I was 11. I can't do that now. I beat all of the Mega Man games when I was growing up but going back and playing Mega Man Zero on the DS gave me some trouble. Most people I know that have been gaming for 20+ years are in the same boat. Modern games with all of the cushiness they offer have softened me. Yet I still killed Radec with using the butt of my Sniper Rifle and headhsots with said weapon ONLY when beating KZ2. I'd like to add that half of the games I own for the PS3 are PC ports. Heavenly Sword was much more challenging than OF Dragon Rising. But again, I understand this sequel is watered down from the original, so grain of salt there.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="Birdy09"] Well in all honesty you haven't given any reasons as to why these games are harder than PC games, while many users HAVE answered you with complexity and given examples. Lets look at multi player. Its generally accepted here that RTS is the most demanding multi-player genre.... followed by fighters.... doesn't that mean PC has the edge in difficult multi-player games already? have you heard of DOTA and its many clones? the action strategy genre.... What is the most skillful and demanding style shooter? if you say anything but Realistic Simulation or Twitch Arena your doing it wrong.... which again are shooter genres that only exist on PC. You are ignoring responses, simple listing what MAINSTREAM GAMING websites show in thier lists of "difficult games" is so pointless, they are aimed to be familiar to as many people as possible, not to be accurate. Demon souls was a joke after the first 10 minutes, most of the bosses were easy. DA:O was easy as you have mentioned. NWN and Baldurs gate were much harder for thier time.Birdy09

Actually, I have given reasons why these console games are harder to beat. The lack of a save function in many of these odler games, the lack of unlimited continues as is ubiquitous in modern gaming, "cheap" game design where you have to perform precise actions with the correct timing or you fail, no second place prize, and the lack of an adjustable difficulty, like in Gradius. If you couldn't do it, you couldn't do it. End fo story. In modern shooters if you die you only have to replay a fraction of the game. With most of the games I'm talking about, Like Ninja Gaiden, when you died you started over from the beginning of the leel, or game over and you start from scratch. In my opinion these games are more demanding and take more discipline to finish.

As I've stated before, this isn't about which is better or more complex. This is about which games are harder to finish. I have a hard time swallowing that more people have given up on KOTOR or Stalker and NOT FINISHED it than something like Battletoads or Metroid, heck, even Siren.

[QUOTE="DragonfireXZ95"][QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

I'm not talking noob vs veteran, I;m talking how hard is it to finish a game.

Actually, your gaming skills get worse as you get older. Hotz was much younger than a lot of hackers out there and look what he did. There are elementary school kids that can o advanced calculus. Age doesn't have much to do with skill, unless you're talking toddlers.

NEStorianPriest

I was beating bothe quests of Zelda with no deaths when I was 11. I can't do that now. I beat all of the Mega Man games when I was growing up but going back and playing Mega Man Zero on the DS gave me some trouble. Most poeple I know that have been gaming for 20+ years are in the same boat. Modern games with all of the cushiness they offer have softened me. I'd like to add that half of the games I own for the PS3 are PC ports. Heavenly Sword was much more challenging than OF Dragon Rising. But again, I understand this sequel is watered down from the original, so grain of salt there.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="DragonfireXZ95"] How old are we talking here, because my gaming skills are a lot better now then they ever were at around age 21(I'm 25 btw).Birdy09

I was beating bothe quests of Zelda with no deaths when I was 11. I can't do that now. I beat all of the Mega Man games when I was growing up but going back and playing Mega Man Zero on the DS gave me some trouble. Most poeple I know that have been gaming for 20+ years are in the same boat. Modern games with all of the cushiness they offer have softened me. I'd like to add that half of the games I own for the PS3 are PC ports. Heavenly Sword was much more challenging than OF Dragon Rising. But again, I understand this sequel is watered down from the original, so grain of salt there.

I had no trouble beating 8 bits games when I was 11, but I find modern games, many of which are also PC games, easy today. I don't that furthers your position. And yes, those old 8 bits games required gobs of practice. I find modern game design to be far less demaning. FPS got big on the PC and most of its desing elements started there. FPS is dominating the industry right now. So when you tell me that FPS games on the PC, even excluding PvPare more challenging, I just don't see it. You are still given plenty of help to keep you alive, or keep you in the game without losing much in the process.

Also, if the real challenge is in multiplayer than it shouldn't amtter if you're playing PC or console, since the skill of your opponent(s) dictate(s) difficulty. So that brings us back to single player games.

[QUOTE="Birdy09"][QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

I was beating bothe quests of Zelda with no deaths when I was 11. I can't do that now. I beat all of the Mega Man games when I was growing up but going back and playing Mega Man Zero on the DS gave me some trouble. Most poeple I know that have been gaming for 20+ years are in the same boat. Modern games with all of the cushiness they offer have softened me. I'd like to add that half of the games I own for the PS3 are PC ports. Heavenly Sword was much more challenging than OF Dragon Rising. But again, I understand this sequel is watered down from the original, so grain of salt there.

NEStorianPriest

I had no trouble beating 8 bits games when I was 11, but I find modern games, many of which are also PC games, easy today. I don't that furthers your position. And yes, those old 8 bits games required gobs of practice. I find modern game design to be far less demaning. FPS got big on the PC and most of its desing elements started there. FPS is dominating the industry right now. So when you tell me that FPS games on the PC, even excluding PvPare more challenging, I just don't see it. You are still given plenty of help to keep you alive, or keep you in the game without losing much in the process.

Also, if the real challenge is in multiplayer than it shouldn't amtter if you're playing PC or console, since the skil lof your opponent(s) dicate(s) difficulty. So that brings us back to single player games.

[QUOTE="Birdy09"][QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

I was beating bothe quests of Zelda with no deaths when I was 11. I can't do that now. I beat all of the Mega Man games when I was growing up but going back and playing Mega Man Zero on the DS gave me some trouble. Most poeple I know that have been gaming for 20+ years are in the same boat. Modern games with all of the cushiness they offer have softened me. I'd like to add that half of the games I own for the PS3 are PC ports. Heavenly Sword was much more challenging than OF Dragon Rising. But again, I understand this sequel is watered down from the original, so grain of salt there.

NEStorianPriest

I had no trouble beating 8 bits games when I was 11, but I find modern games, many of which are also PC games, easy today. I don't that furthers your position. And yes, those old 8 bits games required gobs of practice. I find modern game design to be far less demaning. FPS got big on the PC and most of its desing elements started there. FPS is dominating the industry right now. So when you tell me that FPS games on the PC, even excluding PvPare more challenging, I just don't see it. You are still given plenty of help to keep you alive, or keep you in the game without losing much in the process.

Also, if the real challenge is in multiplayer than it shouldn't amtter if you're playing PC or console, since the skill of your opponent(s) dictate(s) difficulty. So that brings us back to single player games.

Proof of this is when you look at when modern players talk about games like Battletoads and Ninja Gaiden being impossible. Well, when I was around 10 years old, I was able to beat Ninja Gaiden without losing a life. Battletoads is difficult, but nowhere near what gamers of today make it out to be. Also, when I complain to fellow gamers about games being too easy, they give me recommendations. Demon Souls? Meat Boy? I consider them just a little more difficult than whats typically out there today.

[QUOTE="Birdy09"][QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

I was beating bothe quests of Zelda with no deaths when I was 11. I can't do that now. I beat all of the Mega Man games when I was growing up but going back and playing Mega Man Zero on the DS gave me some trouble. Most poeple I know that have been gaming for 20+ years are in the same boat. Modern games with all of the cushiness they offer have softened me. I'd like to add that half of the games I own for the PS3 are PC ports. Heavenly Sword was much more challenging than OF Dragon Rising. But again, I understand this sequel is watered down from the original, so grain of salt there.

NEStorianPriest

I had no trouble beating 8 bits games when I was 11, but I find modern games, many of which are also PC games, easy today. I don't that furthers your position. And yes, those old 8 bits games required gobs of practice. I find modern game design to be far less demaning. FPS got big on the PC and most of its desing elements started there. FPS is dominating the industry right now. So when you tell me that FPS games on the PC, even excluding PvPare more challenging, I just don't see it. You are still given plenty of help to keep you alive, or keep you in the game without losing much in the process.

Also, if the real challenge is in multiplayer than it shouldn't amtter if you're playing PC or console, since the skill of your opponent(s) dictate(s) difficulty. So that brings us back to single player games.

[QUOTE="millerlight89"]Most of those old console games that are so hard, are due to terrible game design. I was there, I played them, I know. Were you TC?NEStorianPriest

Despite my meager post count, I am a veteran gamer. I am 34, worked in various rental and retail outlets growing up (played a lot of games for free) and have played literally hundreds upon hundreds of games. So yes, I was there. I also played PC steadily from Commodore to Windows 95 and after, onlysporadically. My opinion is that console games were always more demanding of my skills.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="Birdy09"] Because the real competition which is much more than those old games is in the multiplayer now. oh and, you only cant do it now because your out of practice. when you were a kid you no doubt played it non stop to get it down that perfect, as did all of us. Im still quite good at Castlevanias but thats about it. but they offer no challenge compared to Heroes of Newerth to me now... outdated, cheap... old.Birdy09

I had no trouble beating 8 bits games when I was 11, but I find modern games, many of which are also PC games, easy today. I don't that furthers your position. And yes, those old 8 bits games required gobs of practice. I find modern game design to be far less demaning. FPS got big on the PC and most of its desing elements started there. FPS is dominating the industry right now. So when you tell me that FPS games on the PC, even excluding PvPare more challenging, I just don't see it. You are still given plenty of help to keep you alive, or keep you in the game without losing much in the process.

Also, if the real challenge is in multiplayer than it shouldn't amtter if you're playing PC or console, since the skill of your opponent(s) dictate(s) difficulty. So that brings us back to single player games.

Beating an entire game without dying is a challenge. Beating only part of a game is less a challenge. People keep mentioning game design quality, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking, harder games. Now people are starting to come out and say, yes, old school console games were more demanding. That is exactly as I thought, and what I was looking to hear peoples' perspecitve on.

Also, my opinion is that any online PvP FPS is not going to be as challenging as dealing with the maddenly difficult and sometimes flawed game design of older console games. I don;t think this is a ridiculous claim to make. And it seems some people are starting to agree with me.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="Birdy09"] Because the real competition which is much more than those old games is in the multiplayer now. oh and, you only cant do it now because your out of practice. when you were a kid you no doubt played it non stop to get it down that perfect, as did all of us. Im still quite good at Castlevanias but thats about it. but they offer no challenge compared to Heroes of Newerth to me now... outdated, cheap... old.Heirren

I had no trouble beating 8 bits games when I was 11, but I find modern games, many of which are also PC games, easy today. I don't that furthers your position. And yes, those old 8 bits games required gobs of practice. I find modern game design to be far less demaning. FPS got big on the PC and most of its desing elements started there. FPS is dominating the industry right now. So when you tell me that FPS games on the PC, even excluding PvPare more challenging, I just don't see it. You are still given plenty of help to keep you alive, or keep you in the game without losing much in the process.

Also, if the real challenge is in multiplayer than it shouldn't amtter if you're playing PC or console, since the skill of your opponent(s) dictate(s) difficulty. So that brings us back to single player games.

Proof of this is when you look at when modern players talk about games like Battletoads and Ninja Gaiden being impossible. Well, when I was around 10 years old, I was able to beat Ninja Gaiden without losing a life. Battletoads is difficult, but nowhere near what gamers of today make it out to be. Also, when I complain to fellow gamers about games being too easy, they give me recommendations. Demon Souls? Meat Boy? I consider them just a little more difficult than whats typically out there today.

I agree with you that DS certainly isn;t the hardest game ever made, but the gaming press made a big to do about its difficulty. I used it as an example of a difficult, modern console game, whereas I haven't PC games lauded like that for their grueling difficulty.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="millerlight89"]Most of those old console games that are so hard, are due to terrible game design. I was there, I played them, I know. Were you TC?Heil68

Despite my meager post count, I am a veteran gamer. I am 34, worked in various rental and retail outlets growing up (played a lot of games for free) and have played literally hundreds upon hundreds of games. So yes, I was there. I also played PC steadily from Commodore to Windows 95 and after, onlysporadically. My opinion is that console games were always more demanding of my skills.

I;m reading that this game os more accessible than previous installments, and that it shipped with a large amount of bugs. Is part of what contributes to the game's difficulty?

I don't find many games on any platform these days too hard.

I think games back years ago were harder in general because they were shorter games too.

On a side note, why are we now making comparisons with an entire catalogue of games accross many consoles over the past few decades?

[QUOTE="Birdy09"][QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

I had no trouble beating 8 bits games when I was 11, but I find modern games, many of which are also PC games, easy today. I don't that furthers your position. And yes, those old 8 bits games required gobs of practice. I find modern game design to be far less demaning. FPS got big on the PC and most of its desing elements started there. FPS is dominating the industry right now. So when you tell me that FPS games on the PC, even excluding PvPare more challenging, I just don't see it. You are still given plenty of help to keep you alive, or keep you in the game without losing much in the process.

Also, if the real challenge is in multiplayer than it shouldn't amtter if you're playing PC or console, since the skill of your opponent(s) dictate(s) difficulty. So that brings us back to single player games.

NEStorianPriest

Beating an entire game without dying is a challenge. Beating only part of a game is less a challenge. People keep mentioning game design quality, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking, harder games. Now people are starting to come out and say, yes, old school console games were more demanding. That is exactly as I thought, and what I was looking to hear peoples' perspecitve on.

Also, my opinion is that any online PvP FPS is not going to be as challenging as dealing with the maddenly difficult and sometimes flawed game design of older console games. I don;t think this is a ridiculous claim to make. And it seems some people are starting to agree with me.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="Birdy09"] I dont disagree, but the old style games design was purely designed to frustrate, it was tedious, annoying and im glad it doesnt exist anymore. making difficulty through complexity and multiplayer is by far the better games design, so I dont see the point in this debate. Furthermore you have targeted PC games. that have been ahead of alot of console games in design easily by 5-10 years until recently, in some genres that gap still exists. Yes, more saves is less difficult. but then you still have to cross that difficult point, you just dont need to conquer the previous areas again which is tedious and a waste of time, not a challenge, perhaps keeing up consistency is argueable a challenge, but one that is unwelcome, outdated and outright crap for a single player game. And again, like someone else said, your blind look on online pvp is ridiculous, many games requires different levels of skill online despite the kind of players envolved. so no, your wrong there.Birdy09

Beating an entire game without dying is a challenge. Beating only part of a game is less a challenge. People keep mentioning game design quality, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking, harder games. Now people are starting to come out and say, yes, old school console games were more demanding. That is exactly as I thought, and what I was looking to hear peoples' perspecitve on.

Also, my opinion is that any online PvP FPS is not going to be as challenging as dealing with the maddenly difficult and sometimes flawed game design of older console games. I don;t think this is a ridiculous claim to make. And it seems some people are starting to agree with me.

I like the online competition. When done right it brings that 90s arcade feeling to the home. However, as sad as this sounds, you have to factor in connection speeds, etc. Unfortunate, but true.

I don't find many games on any platform these days too hard.

I think games back years ago were harder in general because they were shorter games too.

On a side note, why are we now making comparisons with an entire catalogue of games accross many consoles over the past few decades?

As I've stated before, this isn't about which is better or more complex. This is about which games are harder to finish. I have a hard time swallowing that more people have given up on KOTOR or Stalker and NOT FINISHED it than something like Battletoads or Metroid, heck, even Siren.

NEStorianPriest

Well I think this is what causes all the confusion. Console games are hard too. Some PC games are not harder but more complex. The term dumbing down doesn't mean it becomes easier but less complex.