Bethesda Tired Of Spending Money Supporting Software Pirates

Solution: Make games people can and/or want to play.foxhound_fox

Right, because people steal things they don't want...

They should be tired of it.

If I spent millions of dollars to make a product and people decided they'd just steal it I'd be pissed.

Right, because people steal things they don't want... gonzalezj1

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]If they can't make good enough games that convince people to buy a copy based on pure quality, the way Stardock does, then they shouldn't be making games.lespaul00

Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Are you stating the reason for pirating games is because they believe the quality is so low that is does not warrant a purchase? And that if the quality was better, they would somehow give up their pirating ways and start buying game instead?

Sounds like what he is saying and it doesn't make any more sense to me than it does to you.

[QUOTE="gonzalezj1"]Right, because people steal things they don't want... foxhound_fox

That is the worst excuse I've heard on piracy yet. In fact, I'm betting from how you've put it that YOU in fact are a pirate that has justified stealing games in this fashion.

I admit,

As a person who's pirated games before (who hasn't?), and who has friends who pirate games, and who knows a community online who pirates games, I'll tell you this:

mjarantilla you're a long way off.

Quite simply, you pirate just because you can. Any and every game is subject to piracy just coz people want it. No real justification behind it whatsoever.

EDIT: I still have trouble choosing between piracy and the recently established adventure game DD site. So yeah, go figure.

The generalisation is unwarranted because you're expanding it to a level that it does NOT apply to. You're basically saying all pirates are only pirating because they wish to test the game out, when clearly this is wholly wrong. Clearly some may do this, but not everyone will, as you were stating in your original post.Hoobinator

No, you're expanding it to that level. I'm only talking about pirates that actually affect the publishers/developers' bottom-line.

I'm not talking about the pirates who bought the game, I'm talking about the pirates who did NOT buy the game because either 1) They don't want to.
2) They are unable to.Hoobinator

And both types of pirates are irrelevant to this discussion because they do not affect the publishers/developers' bottom-line and therefore are not part of any discussion on the detrimental effects of piracy.

How can a store issuing a game rental whereby the original publisher and creator is remunerated handsomely be compared to a game which is bought once, without the right to distribution and allowed to be copied over a P2P network. Again your whole reasoning is completely off, you're comparing to things which have no direct relevancy. The legality of the two is completely separate as well. And yes this is as much a legal separation as it is an economic one. Even if a store buys a rental right and rents that game to 10,000 different individuals the initial remuneration is still far more than one pirated copy on a P2P network. Legally they are worlds apart.Hoobinator

Fine, I'm wrong about rentals. But not about used games.

Nope. Complete objection, I viewed this argument both from a legal and economic perspective, and both are just as applicable to the argument. If a publisher accents to letting stores rent its games out the fact that it has allowed permission means it can not ever be in the realm of piracy or ever be compared to piracy from a legal perspective. This is much the same as copyright laws, permission must always be sought fist. You're reducing the argument to a simple financial one, which is too reductionist to take into account the full breadth of the implications and complications of piracy.Hoobinator

Legality is irrelevant to the decision of the publisher/developer to implement a too-restrictive DRM system.

You seem to think that I've been talking about the broader issue of piracy, when in fact I'm not. Go back to my very, very first posts on this thread, and you'll see that the only topic I've ever been concerned with is the issue of DRM and its perceived benefits.

And as I explained in my last post rentals do not have the same impact economically as piracy, the right to 'rent' a game is a big cost to the stores doing the renting, and the publisher is remunerated handsomely. Even on a large rental basis, the diminishing returns for the publisher from each rental, if it happens to be a one-off payment contract and not per-rental is still much greater than a copy put on a P2P network for others to download.

Used games are a separate issue and it's borderline as I stated before. "it is not necessrily bad for the economy as whole, which is why it is allowed. A used copy purchase is a genuine transaction of payment which stays within the economy, either for the individual reseller to then use to purchase other goods, or for the shop as part of its profits. It is no coincidence that games shops see used games as one of their biggest earners."

Again if I was to leave the legal argument out of this I could not explain to you why used games are allowed in the economy. It is legally very difficult to enforce a ban on a re-sale of a product which you legally own. I'm sure publishers would love only new games to be sold, but this would in effect be shutting down a standard of free market economies. Buying one copy of a game and putting it up on a P2P network is not the same, first because you have no permission to do so, and secondly it is much more detrimental to the economy at large. Used games are part of the 'second-hand economy' of any nation they're part of, they keep businesses profits up and hence keep them running. It is one of the most profitable sectors of any game retailer. How does a P2P pirated distribution effect the economy at large? I'll answer it for you and that is negatively not positively as second hand games do.

Hoobinator

Let me repeat. The topic of ALL of my posts on this thread has been one thing and one thing only: the justifiable effectiveness (or lack thereof) of DRM systems.

As I said, I've kept my generalizations to precisely the level they should be for this argument. The thread began with Bethesda's complaints that rampant piracy is causing them problems and that they are seeking methods of preventing piracy, and I've pointed my posts directly at those claims by citing examples of how DRM-less or DRM-lite games tend to succeed despite piracy. Legality has nothing to do with this.

I admit,

As a person who's pirated games before (who hasn't?), and who has friends who pirate games, and who knows a community online who pirates games, I'll tell you this:

mjarantilla you're a long way off.

Quite simply, you pirate just because you can. Any and every game is subject to piracy just coz people want it. No real justification behind it whatsoever.

FrozenLiquid

You've missed the point, just as Hoobinator has.

I'm arguing against the effectiveness of aggressive DRM. I don't care about piracy. I'm saying that the justification companies like Bethesda use to implement DRM is faulty because while piracy might be discouraged by DRM, so are legitimate purchases.

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"]

Used games are a separate issue and it's borderline as I stated before. "it is not necessrily bad for the economy as whole, which is why it is allowed. A used copy purchase is a genuine transaction of payment which stays within the economy, either for the individual reseller to then use to purchase other goods, or for the shop as part of its profits. It is no coincidence that games shops see used games as one of their biggest earners."

HuusAsking

That was pretty much my argument, that resale is completely legal. But thanks for providing clarification. I only meant 'borderline' not in legal terms of whether the practice of resale is legal, but borderline as to the total opportunity cost of lost revenue of the original game creators versus the gains to the economy as a whole.

I admit,

As a person who's pirated games before (who hasn't?), and who has friends who pirate games, and who knows a community online who pirates games, I'll tell you this:

mjarantilla you're a long way off.

Quite simply, you pirate just because you can. Any and every game is subject to piracy just coz people want it. No real justification behind it whatsoever.

EDIT: I still have trouble choosing between piracy and the recently established adventure game DD site. So yeah, go figure.

FrozenLiquid

Hi. I've never pirated a game and I am a dedicated PC player. In fact, I've never even had a console or hand held modded for piracy either.

Why?

I'm an educated gamer that is capable of researching which games are worth my money, time, and effort. From there, I feel that if a game is worth playing, then it is worth buying properly and supporting the developer.

That is the worst excuse I've heard on piracy yet. In fact, I'm betting from how you've put it that YOU in fact are a pirate that has justified stealing games in this fashion. Velric

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

I admit,

As a person who's pirated games before (who hasn't?), and who has friends who pirate games, and who knows a community online who pirates games, I'll tell you this:

mjarantilla you're a long way off.

Quite simply, you pirate just because you can. Any and every game is subject to piracy just coz people want it. No real justification behind it whatsoever.

mjarantilla

You've missed the point, just as Hoobinator has.

I'm arguing against the effectiveness of aggressive DRM, NOT piracy.

Seems that you have missed the point too, boss.

I'm talking about your first post, like it meant something.

And apparently this one:

The reason people pirate rather than buy is because they are unsure of the game's quality. They hear the marketing buzz, but for whatever reason, they don't have faith in the developer, so they don't want to risk money on a full-price purchase. The console equivalent to piracy is game rental or used game purchases.mjarantilla

^ :lol: ^

Wow, thats ironic, Bethseda is tired of spending money supporting software pirates, and I'm tired of spending money supporting terrible software developers like Bethseda.jeffwulf

So you're saying Bethesda has never put out a good game or are you merely upset that Oblivion wasn't as deep as Morrowind?

Wow, thats ironic, Bethseda is tired of spending money supporting software pirates, and I'm tired of spending money supporting terrible software developers like Bethseda.jeffwulf

[QUOTE="jeffwulf"]Wow, thats ironic, Bethseda is tired of spending money supporting software pirates, and I'm tired of spending money supporting terrible software developers like Bethseda.Velric

So you're saying Bethesda has never put out a good game or are you merely upset that Oblivion wasn't as deep as Morrowind?

I swear people are bashing Bethesda more than they should.

I know the Elder Scroll fans are happily enjoying the game still (courtesy of mods, of course), with no huge grief over what Bethesda did.

It seems the "hermits", for want of differentiating them from the Elder Scrolls fans, think it's the beginning of the end.

[QUOTE="Velric"]

[QUOTE="jeffwulf"]Wow, thats ironic, Bethseda is tired of spending money supporting software pirates, and I'm tired of spending money supporting terrible software developers like Bethseda.FrozenLiquid

So you're saying Bethesda has never put out a good game or are you merely upset that Oblivion wasn't as deep as Morrowind?

I swear people are bashing Bethesda more than they should.

I know the Elder Scroll fans are happily enjoying the game still (courtesy of mods, of course), with no huge grief over what Bethesda did.

It seems the "hermits", for want of differentiating them from the Elder Scrolls fans, think it's the beginning of the end.

Hi. I've never pirated a game and I am a dedicated PC player. In fact, I've never even had a console or hand held modded for piracy either.

Why?

I'm an educated gamer that is capable of researching which games are worth my money, time, and effort. From there, I feel that if a game is worth playing, then it is worth buying properly and supporting the developer.

Velric

[QUOTE="speedsix"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]If they can't make good enough games that convince people to buy a copy based on pure quality, the way Stardock does, then they shouldn't be making games.mjarantilla

Isn't it strange that the companies with the best games also have the least restrictive DRM and complain the least about piracy?

I always found that strange given all these consolites' arguments that PC piracy is a problem.

Hi. I've never pirated a game and I am a dedicated PC player. In fact, I've never even had a console or hand held modded for piracy either.

Why?

I'm an educated gamer that is capable of researching which games are worth my money, time, and effort. From there, I feel that if a game is worth playing, then it is worth buying properly and supporting the developer.

Velric

Whoa? Really?

Holy crap :shock:

Hey, would you like a cookie?

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

I swear people are bashing Bethesda more than they should.

I know the Elder Scroll fans are happily enjoying the game still (courtesy of mods, of course), with no huge grief over what Bethesda did.

It seems the "hermits", for want of differentiating them from the Elder Scrolls fans, think it's the beginning of the end.

JLF1

[QUOTE="jeffwulf"]Wow, thats ironic, Bethseda is tired of spending money supporting software pirates, and I'm tired of spending money supporting terrible software developers like Bethseda.delta3074

hmmm,well i guess with this logic,you must enjoy listening to Britney Spears or some other crappy generic pop music,because ya know,they won tons of awards,and they sell *shed loads* of albums.

not bashing you for liking oblivion. (i dont mind the game,it's a decent for what it is,an open ended action adeventure with light rpg elements),i'm just saying maybe you should think for yourself as well as give a sincere reason (in your own words) why you feel it's an amazing game,and not pull the sales/popularity card.

And yet which version is out on torrents and being downloaded by thousands as we speak, Bethesda? The 360 one!?!? Oh, the blaspemy... :Pdgsag

When the PC version is released it will trounce the 360 version downloads within the hour.

Whoa? Really?

Holy crap :shock:

Hey, would you like a cookie?

FrozenLiquid

I've never pirated! Can I get a cookie?!:D

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

Whoa? Really?

Holy crap :shock:

Hey, would you like a cookie?

organic_machine

I've never pirated! Can I get a cookie?!:D

Back the freak off my cookie!

[QUOTE="lespaul00"]

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]If they can't make good enough games that convince people to buy a copy based on pure quality, the way Stardock does, then they shouldn't be making games.Espada12

Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Are you stating the reason for pirating games is because they believe the quality is so low that is does not warrant a purchase? And that if the quality was better, they would somehow give up their pirating ways and start buying game instead?

Believe it or not people actually do that. I know of people who pirated crysis just to see if it would run decently on thier PCs, I've known people who couldn't wait for games and pirated them then bought them on release. It's strange but it happens.

The thing is about pc games that you cant rent them, you have absolutely no idea if it can run on your pc, or anything. So in a sense pirating is the only option because you dont really wanna waste money on a game your not even sure if youll like, because if you open it, you basically are stuck with that game because stores and stuff are sooooooo uptight about there return policies on pc games that you really cant return it if it doesnt work on you computer

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

I admit,

As a person who's pirated games before (who hasn't?), and who has friends who pirate games, and who knows a community online who pirates games, I'll tell you this:

mjarantilla you're a long way off.

Quite simply, you pirate just because you can. Any and every game is subject to piracy just coz people want it. No real justification behind it whatsoever.

FrozenLiquid

You've missed the point, just as Hoobinator has.

I'm arguing against the effectiveness of aggressive DRM, NOT piracy.

Seems that you have missed the point too, boss.

I'm talking about your first post, like it meant something.

And apparently this one:

The reason people pirate rather than buy is because they are unsure of the game's quality. They hear the marketing buzz, but for whatever reason, they don't have faith in the developer, so they don't want to risk money on a full-price purchase. The console equivalent to piracy is game rental or used game purchases.mjarantilla

^ :lol: ^

Right, and that is directly related to the ineffectiveness of DRM as a preventative measure. People who pirate for any other reason probably would not have bought the game regardless of whether DRM was present or not, and people who pirate because they just "want to try it out first" would not buy the game unless it was worth tolerating the DRM.

Companies should focus their efforts more onpromoting legitimate usage rather than preventing illicit usage. Illicit usage by itself does not negatively impact the company, but illicit usage is the only thing that most DRM systems target, and most often those DRM systems also inadvertently target legitimate usage, too.

[QUOTE="organic_machine"][QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

Whoa? Really?

Holy crap :shock:

Hey, would you like a cookie?

Velric

I've never pirated! Can I get a cookie?!:D

Back the freak off my cookie!

Oh no you don't! I've never pirated... FIRST!!!!

Right, and that is directly related to the ineffectiveness of DRM as a preventative measure. People who pirate for any other reason probably would not have bought the game regardless of whether DRM was present or not, and people who pirate because they just "want to try it out first" would not buy the game unless it was worth tolerating the DRM.

Companies should focus their efforts more onpromoting legitimate usage rather than preventing illicit usage. Illicit usage by itself does not negatively impact the company, but illicit usage is the only thing that most DRM systems target, and most often those DRM systems also inadvertently target legitimate usage, too.

mjarantilla

:roll:

Okay dude, whatever.

Go on your anti-DRM campaign if you want, but only do it to the comments that were relevant to it at the time. Believe it or not, I have a brain, and I have experience, and I can see exactly where the arguments go off into another tangent altogether, more specifically DRM.

And yeah, it took you awhile before deleting your first reply just so you could rewrite it into something which spun the topic back your way. I'd have to say, the original reply to my previous comment (the one you deleted and thought you got away with) was only 6/10. It seemed very flaky.

This one, to the untrained eye, looks legit though. Congrats.

[QUOTE="Espada12"][QUOTE="lespaul00"]

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]If they can't make good enough games that convince people to buy a copy based on pure quality, the way Stardock does, then they shouldn't be making games.VendettaRed07

Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Are you stating the reason for pirating games is because they believe the quality is so low that is does not warrant a purchase? And that if the quality was better, they would somehow give up their pirating ways and start buying game instead?

Believe it or not people actually do that. I know of people who pirated crysis just to see if it would run decently on thier PCs, I've known people who couldn't wait for games and pirated them then bought them on release. It's strange but it happens.

The thing is about pc games that you cant rent them, you have absolutely no idea if it can run on your pc, or anything. So in a sense pirating is the only option because you dont really wanna waste money on a game your not even sure if youll like, because if you open it, you basically are stuck with that game because stores and stuff are sooooooo uptight about there return policies on pc games that you really cant return it if it doesnt work on you computer

Don't they have demos?

developers need to stop being little goddamn babys wahhh we didnt get eve dollar wahhh we're not rich enough as it is.

LOL idsoftware actually used a sell a shareware copy of of quake 1996 and you could crack it and it would be the full version of quake.

people have been pirating games for over 10 years why the devs are complaing now i have no idea.

Anyone else notice IDSOFTWARE hasnt complained about piracy?

idsoftware's last game doom3 sold more than 3 million copies.

:roll:

Okay dude, whatever.

Go on your anti-DRM campaign if you want, but only do it to the comments that were relevant to it at the time. Believe it or not, I have a brain, and I have experience, and I can see exactly where the arguments go off into another tangent altogether, more specifically DRM.

And yeah, it took you awhile before deleting your first reply just so you could rewrite it into something which spun the topic back your way. I'd have to say, the original reply to my previous comment (the one you deleted and thought you got away with) was only 6/10. It seemed very flaky.

This one, to the untrained eye, looks legit though. Congrats.

FrozenLiquid

Got to agree. Your first few posts in this thread were directly targetting piracy as a whole, regardless of whether you meant it to be such, so it is of no great surprise that many took your argument the wrong way, if it was initially wrong only you can really know.

As for the x360 problem? Well it's the same as the PC problem.. nothing you can do. Espada12

developers need to stop being little goddamn babys wahhh we didnt get eve dollar wahhh we're not rich enough as it is.

LOL idsoftware actually used a sell a shareware copy of of quake 1996 and you could crack it and it would be the full version of quake.

people have been pirating games for over 10 years why the devs are complaing now i have no idea.

Anyone else notice IDSOFTWARE hasnt complained about piracy?

idsoftware's last game doom3 sold more than 3 million copies.

woobabooba

Companies should focus their efforts more on promoting legitimate usage rather than preventing illicit usage.mjarantilla

damn all of you console owners for making cliff.b one rich bastard

Is it fair to say that Gears of War has become Epic's most important property?

I think it is safe to say that. Unreal Tournament has been our bread and butter for years, but it is hard to argue with the success of gears. Unreal Tournament III is a game we really care about and it reviewed very well. But Gears is now our primary franchise.

Cliffy.b said that^^

man i supported epicgames since 1998 i first started gaming in unreal franchise with the first game.

That's a shame gears of war sucks.

[QUOTE="woobabooba"]

developers need to stop being little goddamn babys wahhh we didnt get eve dollar wahhh we're not rich enough as it is.

LOL idsoftware actually used a sell a shareware copy of of quake 1996 and you could crack it and it would be the full version of quake.

people have been pirating games for over 10 years why the devs are complaing now i have no idea.

Anyone else notice IDSOFTWARE hasnt complained about piracy?

idsoftware's last game doom3 sold more than 3 million copies.

Makari

Companies should focus their efforts more on promoting legitimate usage rather than preventing illicit usage.mjarantilla

lol i havent seen 1 interview of john carmack complaining.

Gear of war is taking away focus on epicgames on the unreal series that's bad.

LEAD DESIGNER CLIFFY.B

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_Tournament_2003

^^^

cliff lead designed the ut2k4 and ut2k3.

ut3 wasnt lead designed by cliff.....thanks cliff you ****

i hope everyone pirates the hell outta gears of war 2.

lol i havent seen 1 interview of john carmack complaining.woobabooba

[QUOTE="lespaul00"]

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]If they can't make good enough games that convince people to buy a copy based on pure quality, the way Stardock does, then they shouldn't be making games.Espada12

Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Are you stating the reason for pirating games is because they believe the quality is so low that is does not warrant a purchase? And that if the quality was better, they would somehow give up their pirating ways and start buying game instead?

Believe it or not people actually do that. I know of people who pirated crysis just to see if it would run decently on thier PCs, I've known people who couldn't wait for games and pirated them then bought them on release. It's strange but it happens.

[QUOTE="JLF1"]Oblivion was a great game and so will Fallout 3 be.organic_machine

But what if I found Oblivion to be stale and boring? And shiny graphix and lots of gore won't change that. I appreciate, however, Bethesda's consideration of both sides on this issue.

[QUOTE="organic_machine"]

[QUOTE="JLF1"]Oblivion was a great game and so will Fallout 3 be.BumFluff122

But what if I found Oblivion to be stale and boring? And shiny graphix and lots of gore won't change that. I appreciate, however, Bethesda's consideration of both sides on this issue.

Yeah, and what's your point?

His point is if you thought oblivion was boring then rent this and see if it is better.

Oh and Riven was a Frakking awesome game.

His point is if you thought oblivion was boring then rent this and see if it is better.

Oh and Riven was a Frakking awesome game.

YankeeDan345

But that had nothing to do with my post. Hence my confused reaction. Anyways, yes, Riven is a masterpiece. I am still a little disturbed at the rating it got on GS, though.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]As for the x360 problem? Well it's the same as the PC problem.. nothing you can do. V_Isle

Yeah, and what's your point?

organic_machine

As for it being stakle and boring, again thats what demos and rentals are for. If you don't see the sense in that then I don't know what to say.

[QUOTE="organic_machine"]

Yeah, and what's your point?

BumFluff122

Nope.:) .That was someone else. I was the guy arguing that I've never pirated a game because I play demos!

[QUOTE="BumFluff122"][QUOTE="organic_machine"]

Yeah, and what's your point?

organic_machine

Nope.:) .That was someone else. I was the guy arguing that I've never pirated a game because I play demos!

lol oh. I just got into this thread and did a quick scan. My mistake. I apologize.BumFluff122

:oops: . Thats quite alright!