Bethesda Tired Of Spending Money Supporting Software Pirates

Yes, Frozen just pointed out something not many people think about - home theater does make progress. When I bought my Sega CD, the idea of a *stereo system* was impressive. There were instructions on how to hook up stereo speakers to the system to take advantage of *CD fidelity* sound. Such a receiver, amp, and speaker setup was expensive then. Now, you can get a good quality surround sound setup for $500.subrosian

I wasn't talking home theater, I was talking home entertainment.

An Xbox 360 is $200 now, $300 if you want the 60gb hard drive. At launch a Sega Genesis (adjusted for inflation) was $350. Final Fantasy VII cost $37 million to make (adjusted for inflation). Gears of War cost $10 million. Halo 3 cost $30 million. Again, these claims are simply ridiculous on your part.subrosian

As before, when you compared scalable components to non-scalable end products, you're making another wrong comparison here, because the relative prices of technological products of different eras cannot be compared simply by applying a blanket "inflation" value. Technology advances and depreciates far too quickly for inflation to be a viable equalizer. Only the prices of relatively static products -- food, housing, cars, etc. -- can be reliably compared by adjusting for inflation.

You're parroting information without checking your facts, or being honest about where the complaints are coming from. We have to stop the march of progress, because "game designers" who paid $100,000 for a worthless degree lack the skills to get jobs in a competitive market?

We have to stop the march of progress because fifteen year olds can't afford HDTVs? They couldn't afford regular TVs a decade ago, what has changed? I fail to see where there is any legitimate reason to stop the march of progress other than vague notions and nostalgia-driven "good old days" sentiments.subrosian

Of course you fail to see it. You lump together all technological development under the single umbrella term of "progress" when that is not the case. 8-bit to 16-bit was a linear progression, 2D to 3D is not, and the leap to 3D would have happened whether or not 2D machines ever went 16-bit or higher.

[QUOTE="subrosian"]Spore, Portal, Little Big Planet, Banjo: Nuts & Bolts, Mirror's Edge, MGS4, No More Heroes, Mass Effect, Mario Galaxy... yeah what we have in gaming is a creativity problem :Pmjarantilla

Anyone can make lists. GRAW, GRAW 2, COD2, COD3, COD4, COD:WAW, R6V, R6V2, Splinter Cell IV, Splinter Cell V, DMC4, Halo 3, Alone in the Dark 5, RE5, Twilight Princess, SSBB, Oblivion....There, my list outlists yours 2-to-1. Can we not do that again?

(And I can't believe you listed Mass Effect as an example of "creativity.")

At least there's one point in this discussion where I feel like I can make a contribution.

There isn't a single medium out there where creative products outnumber their generic counterparts. Movies, music, books, whatever: most of them aren't very good, and are certainly far from revolutionary.

In the past, there were a huge number of me-too video games, or titles that weren't very good, or what have you. Heck, the Atari crashed under a flood of crap, and that was 25 years ago. As long as some creative titles exist that are pushing things forward, progress is being made. Sequels and rehashes always existed, and they're never going anywhere.

Give up. All it takes is one person to "fix" it and remove all the malware and upload it.

Oh, and whoever pirates it then calls them is in serious need of education. That is so stupid.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="subrosian"]Spore, Portal, Little Big Planet, Banjo: Nuts & Bolts, Mirror's Edge, MGS4, No More Heroes, Mass Effect, Mario Galaxy... yeah what we have in gaming is a creativity problem :Psonicmj1

Anyone can make lists. GRAW, GRAW 2, COD2, COD3, COD4, COD:WAW, R6V, R6V2, Splinter Cell IV, Splinter Cell V, DMC4, Halo 3, Alone in the Dark 5, RE5, Twilight Princess, SSBB, Oblivion....There, my list outlists yours 2-to-1. Can we not do that again?

(And I can't believe you listed Mass Effect as an example of "creativity.")

At least there's one point in this discussion where I feel like I can make a contribution.

There isn't a single medium out there where creative products outnumber their generic counterparts. Movies, music, books, whatever: most of them aren't very good, and are certainly far from revolutionary.

In the past, there were a huge number of me-too video games, or titles that weren't very good, or what have you. Heck, the Atari crashed under a flood of crap, and that was 25 years ago. As long as some creative titles exist that are pushing things forward, progress is being made. Sequels and rehashes always existed, and they're never going anywhere.

Now here's the thing: those other mediums have a solid mainstream following while video games (DS and Wii excepted) do not. The mainstream generally devours well-made but generic products, while enthusiasts generally don't embrace them. However, video game enthusiasts seem to LOVE "well-made but generic products," as evidenced by my list. I'll bet every single game on my list outsold all of the games on subrosian's list (excepting the decades-old franchises like MGS4 and SMG), and I'll bet many of those who bought the games on my list would be cla$$ified here as "video game enthusiasts."

This isn't about lack of quality. Lack of quality is something else entirely. Lack of quality is just shoddy workmanship. This is about lack of inspiration. Follow-the-leader design. Actually, people aren't even doing follow-the-leader anymore, because if they were, Spore, Portal, LBP, Mirror's Edge, etc., would be pioneers instead of one-shot games.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]As for the x360 problem? Well it's the same as the PC problem.. nothing you can do. V_Isle

Wrong, there is no PC version out yet.

PC gamers know they are destroying their platform with piracy, problem is they don't care. They will loot and plunder PC gaming until it no longer exists, they know it's on the way out and soon to be replaced at the top by console gaming. So why not take what you can before it sinks into oblivion?

If I was a games developer the very last platform I would make games on would be PC, the user base just has no respect for the people making the games, or the law.

It's easy, developers just need to release their PC games on Stardock's Impulse (www.impulsedriven.net) their games have NO DVD/CD protections what so ever, and you don't even need to have impulse started to play the games from there.

But to get patches and other support you need to go online on impulse and download them, effectively locking out the pirates from added content and giving great support to the ones who legitimately bought the game.

It's really amazing that only 1 single developer have really understood what the player needs.
Just take a look at : http://pc.ign.com/articles/920/920382p1.html for a good example on how to deal with piracy....

Bethesda Bought me this ship! Thanks for the support!

PC gamers know they are destroying their platform with piracy, problem is they don't care. They will loot and plunder PC gaming until it no longer exists, they know it's on the way out and soon to be replaced at the top by console gaming. So why not take what you can before it sinks into oblivion?

If I was a games developer the very last platform I would make games on would be PC, the user base just has no respect for the people making the games, or the law.

-NickJC1-

While I'm sure saying all that has done console users egos some good, reality on the other hand has something else to say.

Strange that, the so called sinking platform has more AA/AAA exclusives this gen than all the consoles put together. This is in complete contradiction to the claims you just made, seems even with piracy game companies still prefer to develop for PC.

I also don't like people attempting to make legitimate PC gamers feel guilty for the illegal activities of others, so kindly go screw yourself.

OK, here's my 2 cents:

My dad owns a music store (just a comparison to the game industry), and last year, he had a 30% sales drop over the year before, and guess what?...this year is another 30% over last year. You know what, companies are starting to restrain the quantities of produced CDs (meaning they only make like 500 copies of one title instead of thousands, milions, etc), and that means in the end (because people wont buy music, its just so much easier to download..), we will end up paying 30$ for a cd. Do you think it's cheap to make a cd?? Do you know how much the average artist gets per sold cd ?? 1$ (yeah one dollar). How much it costs to mix it, studio time, insert design, marketting, etc.

So what if you download games? It's not like music?? It's exactly the same thing....you're just killing the industry...

What if I WANT to have the actual cd/game, complete with the insert and all? People walk in my dads shop and say 8$ (yes : EIGHT DOLLARS) for a music cd is too expensive!!! OK, you can download it, but what if you have 1000 + cds in your collection....I dont wanna have hundreds of gigs taken up on my HD just for my music...and what if your HD fails?? Just download them all again??

In the end, it doesn't matter what you pirates think youre doing...one day, the gaming indusrty is just gonna be fed up and stop producing quality games altogether or just rush them so it doesnt cost as much to produce. And in the end, we'll all be the oneswho are going to pay for it.

If I don't have the $$ to buy a game, I save up and buy it later when I can afford it. If you don't have the cash to buy a game/cd....for gods sake...GET A JOB!!!

Don't get me wrong, I used to download loads of stuff before, but after working in the music store, I realized how much it kills the music/gaming industry...Now, all the music cds I've ever dlded, I bought the originals...one by one (took me 2 years)!!! As for games I buy them when I have the money and I research to see if I'm gonna like them or play the demo beforehand.

It's a very lame of an excuse to say you pirate games just to see if you like it / if your pc can handle it. I've dlded games in my younger years and if I liked them, I just kept playing the dlded copy, I wouldn't have bothered buying it. I'm not happy for what I did back then but it's the way it works, and don't try to deny it. Thats human nature for you!

You are just killing the industry, no matter how you put it.

Just my 2cents.

If they can't make good enough games that convince people to buy a copy based on pure quality, the way Stardock does, then they shouldn't be making games.mjarantilla

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="lespaul00"]

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]If they can't make good enough games that convince people to buy a copy based on pure quality, the way Stardock does, then they shouldn't be making games.Hoobinator

Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Are you stating the reason for pirating games is because they believe the quality is so low that is does not warrant a purchase? And that if the quality was better, they would somehow give up their pirating ways and start buying game instead?

The reason people pirate rather than buy is because they are unsure of the game's quality. They hear the marketing buzz, but for whatever reason, they don't have faith in the developer, so they don't want to risk money on a full-price purchase. The console equivalent to piracy is game rental or used game purchases.

I'm sure people only burgle car steroes because they wish to know of the sound quality of the specific stereo before they want to purchase it. Your reasoning is misleading because you're generalising to a level which you shouldn't be. No doubt there are people out there who pirate to see a games quality, no doubt there are people who pirate because they honestly believe in freedom of intellectual property etc. But most pirates will pirate because they don't or can't afford to pay for the retail game, or after purchasing expensive hardware feel vindicated of their purchase by recouping on cheap software.

Game rental and used purchases are NOT piracy. Legally they are not the same, whether you agree with the law or not. Economically games rentals from most companies use a system whereby they purchase the "right" to rent the game out. This is obtained from the publisher so they do get a certain amount of money from it.

Used sales are a tricky area, but one in which the PC also factors in, you can buy used PC games too. Legally speaking once you have purchased the original copy you own the actual piece of good, not necessarily the code within it. So in this respect you are entitled to re-sell the copy, since the games creators have received their fees for the game. In an open economy you are free to buy and sell such a product as many times as you like. So yes it may hinder a genuine purchase of a new copy of the game and thus reduce fees which the creators might receive, but it is not necessrily bad for the economy as whole, which is why it is allowed. A used copy purchase is a genuine transaction of payment which stays within the economy, either for the individual reseller to then use to purchase other goods, or for the shop as part of its profits. It is no coincidence that games shops see used games as one of their biggest earners.

The only economic argument you could put forward to genuinely counteract against piracy is the one that states that each individual has a different 'buying' price, differentbuyers attach different opportunity costs to the product. So a pirate downloading a pirated copy isn't necessarily hindering a sale, since they may never have wanted to or could be able to purchase a copy of the game at full retail price. In this respect piracy in absolute terms, that x number of individuals downloaded a game and thus x copies were lost from a genuine sale to piracy is misleading. In simple terms it would be overstating the issue.

Thats the number one reason....

Piracy is bad. And it is definitely worse for the PCs. And I think digital distrubution is the way of the future for PC gaming. Console gaming on the other hand, I don't see becoming fully digital. If they ever do, however, it will be long after PCs do. organic_machine

agree

This is simple. It isn't easy, but it is quite the simple solution. Software developers need to take a unified stand for their PC software and whole heartedly use DRM. Have it as a standardized thing where gamers have input in final decision regarding how the DRM would work.

The honest to God truth is the majority of PC's are online, so PC piracy can be deterred. The problem is is that gamers disguised as pirates usually go out and cause a huge ruckus when DRM's are being put in games. Sure, some DRM's are really bad, but there are quite a few work arounds to it. I feel a system where online activation along with 10 activation slots per-cd key and organized through that publisher's community portal is a good alternative. Allowing for deactivion of certain slot's per PC is also acceptable. THe truth is that some company needs to take a stand, let pirates scream their ears off, and have them resort to pirating the game and trying to make it run offline.

I love the way Valve/Steam did it with HL2. When it came out, Steam activation DRM's were touted as being unnecessary and a huge inconvenience. To be truthful, at the time it was. Now, some of the software with the least piracy rates are ones published through steam, or its authentication is done through steam.

Overall, developers need to stop listening to all gamers when it comes to DRM's. Many of those complainers are also just people trying to pirate their crap. Once you take a stand, and place it on actual good software and force people to have to go thru it, you'll see we can be very accepting when some of the best titles are on the line.

This is simple. It isn't easy, but it is quite the simple solution. Software developers need to take a unified stand for their PC software and whole heartedly use DRM. Have it as a standardized thing where gamers have input in final decision regarding how the DRM would work.

The honest to God truth is the majority of PC's are online, so PC piracy can be deterred. The problem is is that gamers disguised as pirates usually go out and cause a huge ruckus when DRM's are being put in games. Sure, some DRM's are really bad, but there are quite a few work arounds to it. I feel a system where online activation along with 10 activation slots per-cd key and organized through that publisher's community portal is a good alternative. Allowing for deactivion of certain slot's per PC is also acceptable. THe truth is that some company needs to take a stand, let pirates scream their ears off, and have them resort to pirating the game and trying to make it run offline.

I love the way Valve/Steam did it with HL2. When it came out, Steam activation DRM's were touted as being unnecessary and a huge inconvenience. To be truthful, at the time it was. Now, some of the software with the least piracy rates are ones published through steam, or its authentication is done through steam.

Overall, developers need to stop listening to all gamers when it comes to DRM's. Many of those complainers are also just people trying to pirate their crap. Once you take a stand, and place it on actual good software and force people to have to go thru it, you'll see we can be very accepting when some of the best titles are on the line.

Shensolidus

I can see how some people can get institutionalised in the penitentiary console world...