Better Filmmaker: David Cage Or Kojima?

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

I have not played QD or HR, but I LOVE the MGS series.  Kojima is a genius.  

 

I don't get how people can say all game stories are a joke and dont even come close to movies.  MGS among others definitely do stories justice.

jg4xchamp

The vast majority of films have pretty mediocre stories, just as the vast majority of games do.  The difference is, most games are not trying that hard to have a good story.  MGS has a great story (haters gonna hate) and other games have good stories that rival many movies.  of course there are a handful of movies that are really well done.  It is much much easier to tell a good story when you can craft EXACTLY how everything is going to play out.  Hell I think more shows (HBO and Showtime) have good stories than movies.  a lot of movies suck. 

David Cage is a rambling prick. His games are proclaimed attempts at pushing gaming forward (as if it needed his sole effort), but in fact they do nothing to advance the medium whatsoever. They are slogs through old ideas, seen countless times in other, better, adventure games. His plotlines are shlocky, overly sentimental, and heavy with unearned importance and gravitas.

Kojima is also a rambler, but he isn't a prick. The Metal Gear Solid games have a sense of humor and are genuinely subversive of the medium. He has a better sense of scene, and a better eye for frames. His scripts are undeniably ridiculous. They are also often very interesting cultural commentaries. The paranoia and "did you know" activism of MGS is something I cannot imagine gaming being without. I can imagine gaming without Heavy Rain/Indigo very easily.

jethrovegas

This is pretty much exactly how I feel.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

I have not played QD or HR, but I LOVE the MGS series.  Kojima is a genius.  

 

I don't get how people can say all game stories are a joke and dont even come close to movies.  MGS among others definitely do stories justice.

NaveedLife

The vast majority of films have pretty mediocre stories, just as the vast majority of games do.  The difference is, most games are not trying that hard to have a good story.  MGS has a great story (haters gonna hate) and other games have good stories that rival many movies.  of course there are a handful of movies that are really well done.  It is much much easier to tell a good story when you can craft EXACTLY how everything is going to play out.  Hell I think more shows (HBO and Showtime) have good stories than movies.  a lot of movies suck. 

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] Because just using MGS as an example it's badly written on just dialogue alone, nevermind the actual plot misfires along the way. The story telling in most videogames is there to service and justify a game. Film is a more organic story telling medium. A game actually having a good story by the standards of any medium and not just by "videogame standards" is actually pretty rare outside the adventure genre(and that's whole new mess of its own).

A good film with a good story isn't that rare by comparison. Nevermind that one medium has been delivering for decades to the point it's probably fair enough to say it's been doing well for a century vs a medium that is barely out of its own diapers.

Lulekani

The vast majority of films have pretty mediocre stories, just as the vast majority of games do.  The difference is, most games are not trying that hard to have a good story.  MGS has a great story (haters gonna hate) and other games have good stories that rival many movies.  of course there are a handful of movies that are really well done.  It is much much easier to tell a good story when you can craft EXACTLY how everything is going to play out.  Hell I think more shows (HBO and Showtime) have good stories than movies.  a lot of movies suck. 

I enjoyed the MGS1-4 story more than most movies I have seen.  And the gameplay is awesome as well.

[QUOTE="Lulekani"][QUOTE="Gue1"]

Cage games are more like movies while Kojima's are simply long cut-scenes in-between gameplay pieces with lots of background story and not exactly "main story". And what I mean by that is that MGS cutscenes (and codecs) are almost always to talk about something that already happened while Cage turns current events into a spring to push the gameplay through QTE and stuff.

 

Their styles are so different to the approach of a real movie that I don't think it would work but Cage's way closer based on his games while a Kojima movie would feel like a boring history class to many. But still, and I repeat, story-telling for games and for movies are completely different so it's hard to say which one would be a better filmmaker by just playing their games.

Gue1

butwhat defines Cage's games are not the QTEs but the answers you choose which changes the story-line. This type of game goes more in line with Japanese visual novels or point & click adventures but it's way beyond both when it comes to interactivity and much more ambitious too. System Warriors as always don't put much thought on what they say but Cage has created a truly unique genre. And on Beyond 2 Souls he is even mixing it up even more by making the spirit's gameplay like some kind of mini-puzzles, it has a combat system that is all based on timing and there are escenes where Ellen has a gun and she's dressed in military uniform so you can bet that there will be 3rd person shooter pieces too. Beyond will really be beyond with so much variety in the gameplay department and all will be directly inserted IN the story-telling and not ON it. So Cage can't give you too much shooting or too much racing because the gameplay will be constantly changing depending on what is going on with the story so he has to make it basic.

Giving you these kind of gameplay in a MGS game would be pointless because the story was already deciced way before you even started playing the game and they are different genres after all. Because what satisfaction would give you pressing a button to make Snake stand up during an scene and stuff like that? It's pointless anyway, missing a QTE will change nothing like on Heavy Rain's story-line. But Heavy Rain can because the game was made to be like that.

 

The vast majority of films have pretty mediocre stories, just as the vast majority of games do.  The difference is, most games are not trying that hard to have a good story. 

NaveedLife

[QUOTE="jsmoke03"]

[QUOTE="svenus97"] you have to show me some of those movies because i havent seen one that didn't have a "dafuq" dialogue. not saying i don't enjoy it, but there are a lot of head scratchers in every japanese media

[QUOTE="jsmoke03"]

[QUOTE="svenus97"]

Kojima's writing is incredibly convoluted and messy and desperate for an editor with a chainsaw. Not to mention the "last two or three words of a sentence" thing.

As in, "We just found a big gun"

"A big gun?"

"Yes, it was built by these guys"

"These guys?"

"Yes, those guys right there."

"Right there?"

And so on.

 

Cage is alright, though his stories suffer from some glaring plot holes.

RyviusARC

isnt kojima's writing typical of japanese writers and story tellers? ive never seen an anime or subtitled film that was straight to the point....everything seems long winded and don't always make sense. its as if the dialogue doesn't care if you don't get anything from what they are saying.

Ironically the Japanese language is a lot more simplistic in description than the English language.

But there are anime and Japanese games that follow another pattern.

[QUOTE="StrongBlackVine"]

[QUOTE="MonsieurX"] SureMonsieurX

Film > videogame

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

 

The vast majority of films have pretty mediocre stories, just as the vast majority of games do.  The difference is, most games are not trying that hard to have a good story. 

jg4xchamp

PLENTY of games are an excuse to have fun killing people and so on.  Plenty of movies do the same just to see explosions and new action sequences.  Tons of stories are recycled among all genres and provide almost nothing new. 

Dexter and Homeland > most movies

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

 

The vast majority of films have pretty mediocre stories, just as the vast majority of games do.  The difference is, most games are not trying that hard to have a good story. 

NaveedLife

PLENTY of games are an excuse to have fun killing people and so on.  Plenty of movies do the same just to see explosions and new action sequences.  Tons of stories are recycled among all genres and provide almost nothing new. 

Dexter and Homeland > most movies

MGS might be able to make it if it wasn't for some of the cringe-inducing dialogue.

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] Exactly, a vast majority of the good games don't need a good story. Films do need a good story or at least the characters to justify a viewing beyond pure spectacle. And as much as I love TV, lol hell no. Especially not shoetime. HBO stuff is legit though between The Wire, Deadwood, and the like. And anytime they do a miniseries.

jg4xchamp

PLENTY of games are an excuse to have fun killing people and so on.  Plenty of movies do the same just to see explosions and new action sequences.  Tons of stories are recycled among all genres and provide almost nothing new. 

Dexter and Homeland > most movies

Don't watch oscars or go by ratings (since most ratings give high scores to artsy fartsy garbage).  Dexter had a slow point for a season or so, but it took good leaps and bounds for most of the rest of it.  Homeland keeps getting better in my opinion.  

Please give me some examples of movies.  When I say most movies I mean like 90%.  And it just isnt fair to judge the amount of great stories in games vs movies.  games have been around a lot less time than movies, not too mention how technology plays a part in it.

MGS might be able to make it if it wasn't for some of the cringe-inducing dialogue.

whiskeystrike

I honestly don't know why people say this all time.  there are maybe a couple scenes (usually dealing with the same characters) that are a bit overdone, but 99% of the time it is done very well.  I think my least favorite character is Otacon.  

Dexter sucks ass. ShoulderOfOrion

Waaaah the show is popular so it sucks!  WAAAAAH!!! :cry:

Give reasons maybe?  

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

PLENTY of games are an excuse to have fun killing people and so on.  Plenty of movies do the same just to see explosions and new action sequences.  Tons of stories are recycled among all genres and provide almost nothing new. 

 

Dexter and Homeland > most movies

NaveedLife

Don't watch oscars or go by ratings (since most ratings give high scores to artsy fartsy garbage).  Dexter had a slow point for a season or so, but it took good leaps and bounds for most of the rest of it.  Homeland keeps getting better in my opinion.  

Please give me some examples of movies.  When I say most movies I mean like 90%.  And it just isnt fair to judge the amount of great stories in games vs movies.  games have been around a lot less time than movies, not too mention how technology plays a part in it.

david cage hands down

Regarding the whole games vs movies debate, I'll just throw in my two cents...

Initially, I never thought games could have stories that could rival great movies, but then a few years ago I started trying out games from this one particular genre called the Visual Novel... and quite frankly, a lot of these VN games (or at least the good ones, not the trashy B-movie hentai ones) have better narratives than most movies, while some VN's even have narratives that are impressive enough to rival even the best of movie storytelling. In fact, it's not uncommon in Japan for the narratives in VN games to be adapted into popular anime, movies, or shows... and even despite that, fans often consider the original VN's to have the superior narratives compared to their more traditional anime/movie/television counterparts.

While many gamers might debate whether Visual Novels actually count as video games, that's besides the point. The way I see it, what they represent is the future of interactive storytelling in video games. And over the years, it seems developers like Atlus, Bioware and David Cage are increasingly moving towards that direction, though mainstream video games still have a very long way to go before they eventually reach the standards of Visual Novels.

Game stories are a joke compared to films or TV shows so it very hard to see where either would fit in.

StrongBlackVine

I've read some good game plots but the games were more story than actual gameplay.

Regarding the whole games vs movies debate, I'll just throw in my two cents...

Initially, I never thought games could have stories that could rival great movies, but then a few years ago I started trying out games from this one particular genre called the Visual Novel... and quite frankly, a lot of these VN games (or at least the good ones, not the trashy B-movie hentai ones) have better narratives than most movies, while some VN's even have narratives that are impressive enough to rival even the best of movie storytelling. In fact, it's not uncommon in Japan for the narratives in VN games to be adapted into popular anime, movies, or shows... and even despite that, fans often consider the original VN's to have the superior narratives compared to their more traditional anime/movie/television counterparts.

While many gamers might debate whether Visual Novels actually count as video games, that's besides the point. The way I see it, what they represent is the future of interactive storytelling in video games. And over the years, it seems developers like Atlus, Bioware and David Cage are increasingly moving towards that direction, though mainstream video games still have a very long way to go before they eventually reach the standards of Visual Novels.

Jag85

I am replaying YU-NO which is a visual novel and it has an exceptional plot with a well made script and great voice acting.

My favorite part about the story is that it doesn't leave loose ends.

This guy explains it better than me.

About plot.

YU-NO is cerebral in the ways it challenges morals and logic. Despite balancing the very delicate time travel aspect, it also goes into philosophies of religion, history and introduces both traditional and contemporary mythology in the form of unknown creatures and alien technology. There is little time to fully digest events as they take place, with so many questions left unanswered, and time always against you. From one universe to another, confusion and images of terror will often be the very last thing experienced before entering the tranquility of its parallel universe changing all that is around Takuya. And yet even with all these elements where one slip could result in plot holes or irrational leaps of logic, the writing is always able to support the immense weight of the responsibilities it has to keep everything in balance. Every mystery and every twist has an answer, and every answer reveals enough to satisfy the most skeptic of minds.

About voice acting

In YU-NO, every spoken line has meaning, comes from something real and is never treated as a throwaway aspect. And though the spoken lines are Japanese, the emotion of the delivery is universally understood, from the times of laughter to the times of deadly fear, the performers are able to communicate the intended message without any doubt.

About music

The soundtrack is not the kind that immediately kicks up to 5th gear and remains high in adrenaline and tempo, but rather one that always keeps the emotional background relevant and in place, telling a story in music as much as the game does in writing and speech.

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/yuno/yuno.htm

But most Visual Novels are pretty subpar, you have to really search for the gems.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

Regarding the whole games vs movies debate, I'll just throw in my two cents...

Initially, I never thought games could have stories that could rival great movies, but then a few years ago I started trying out games from this one particular genre called the Visual Novel... and quite frankly, a lot of these VN games (or at least the good ones, not the trashy B-movie hentai ones) have better narratives than most movies, while some VN's even have narratives that are impressive enough to rival even the best of movie storytelling. In fact, it's not uncommon in Japan for the narratives in VN games to be adapted into popular anime, movies, or shows... and even despite that, fans often consider the original VN's to have the superior narratives compared to their more traditional anime/movie/television counterparts.

While many gamers might debate whether Visual Novels actually count as video games, that's besides the point. The way I see it, what they represent is the future of interactive storytelling in video games. And over the years, it seems developers like Atlus, Bioware and David Cage are increasingly moving towards that direction, though mainstream video games still have a very long way to go before they eventually reach the standards of Visual Novels.

RyviusARC

I am replaying YU-NO which is a visual novel and it has an exceptional plot with a well made script and great voice acting.

My favorite part about the story is that it doesn't leave loose ends.

This guy explains it better than me.

About plot.

YU-NO is cerebral in the ways it challenges morals and logic. Despite balancing the very delicate time travel aspect, it also goes into philosophies of religion, history and introduces both traditional and contemporary mythology in the form of unknown creatures and alien technology. There is little time to fully digest events as they take place, with so many questions left unanswered, and time always against you. From one universe to another, confusion and images of terror will often be the very last thing experienced before entering the tranquility of its parallel universe changing all that is around Takuya. And yet even with all these elements where one slip could result in plot holes or irrational leaps of logic, the writing is always able to support the immense weight of the responsibilities it has to keep everything in balance. Every mystery and every twist has an answer, and every answer reveals enough to satisfy the most skeptic of minds.

About voice acting

In YU-NO, every spoken line has meaning, comes from something real and is never treated as a throwaway aspect. And though the spoken lines are Japanese, the emotion of the delivery is universally understood, from the times of laughter to the times of deadly fear, the performers are able to communicate the intended message without any doubt.

About music

The soundtrack is not the kind that immediately kicks up to 5th gear and remains high in adrenaline and tempo, but rather one that always keeps the emotional background relevant and in place, telling a story in music as much as the game does in writing and speech.

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/yuno/yuno.htm

But most Visual Novels are pretty subpar, you have to really search for the gems.

YU-NO is a great example of what I'm talking about. The same goes for Clannad and Steins Gate, as well as the Out of Infinity and Zero Escape series. 

But yeah, the majority of Visual Novels are pretty sub-par. Like one user said above, 90% of every medium is trash. When it comes to any medium, you have to really search for the gems.

In the case of Visual Novels though, only a small fraction of those gems have been translated into English. There's a lot more out there (most notably the Famitsu favourites Machi and 428), but there's a language barrier in the way.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

Regarding the whole games vs movies debate, I'll just throw in my two cents...

Initially, I never thought games could have stories that could rival great movies, but then a few years ago I started trying out games from this one particular genre called the Visual Novel... and quite frankly, a lot of these VN games (or at least the good ones, not the trashy B-movie hentai ones) have better narratives than most movies, while some VN's even have narratives that are impressive enough to rival even the best of movie storytelling. In fact, it's not uncommon in Japan for the narratives in VN games to be adapted into popular anime, movies, or shows... and even despite that, fans often consider the original VN's to have the superior narratives compared to their more traditional anime/movie/television counterparts.

While many gamers might debate whether Visual Novels actually count as video games, that's besides the point. The way I see it, what they represent is the future of interactive storytelling in video games. And over the years, it seems developers like Atlus, Bioware and David Cage are increasingly moving towards that direction, though mainstream video games still have a very long way to go before they eventually reach the standards of Visual Novels.

RyviusARC

I am replaying YU-NO which is a visual novel and it has an exceptional plot with a well made script and great voice acting.

My favorite part about the story is that it doesn't leave loose ends.

This guy explains it better than me.

About plot.

YU-NO is cerebral in the ways it challenges morals and logic. Despite balancing the very delicate time travel aspect, it also goes into philosophies of religion, history and introduces both traditional and contemporary mythology in the form of unknown creatures and alien technology. There is little time to fully digest events as they take place, with so many questions left unanswered, and time always against you. From one universe to another, confusion and images of terror will often be the very last thing experienced before entering the tranquility of its parallel universe changing all that is around Takuya. And yet even with all these elements where one slip could result in plot holes or irrational leaps of logic, the writing is always able to support the immense weight of the responsibilities it has to keep everything in balance. Every mystery and every twist has an answer, and every answer reveals enough to satisfy the most skeptic of minds.

About voice acting

In YU-NO, every spoken line has meaning, comes from something real and is never treated as a throwaway aspect. And though the spoken lines are Japanese, the emotion of the delivery is universally understood, from the times of laughter to the times of deadly fear, the performers are able to communicate the intended message without any doubt.

About music

The soundtrack is not the kind that immediately kicks up to 5th gear and remains high in adrenaline and tempo, but rather one that always keeps the emotional background relevant and in place, telling a story in music as much as the game does in writing and speech.

huh? this game?

this is a hentai isn't it? :?

how can a hentai (something designed to get you off) be so deep? :?

Neither, they both suck as filmmakers. They would be gutter trash at best.

Kojima is a substantially superior game developer though.

jg4xchamp

Nailed it.

[QUOTE="RyviusARC"]

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

Regarding the whole games vs movies debate, I'll just throw in my two cents...

Initially, I never thought games could have stories that could rival great movies, but then a few years ago I started trying out games from this one particular genre called the Visual Novel... and quite frankly, a lot of these VN games (or at least the good ones, not the trashy B-movie hentai ones) have better narratives than most movies, while some VN's even have narratives that are impressive enough to rival even the best of movie storytelling. In fact, it's not uncommon in Japan for the narratives in VN games to be adapted into popular anime, movies, or shows... and even despite that, fans often consider the original VN's to have the superior narratives compared to their more traditional anime/movie/television counterparts.

While many gamers might debate whether Visual Novels actually count as video games, that's besides the point. The way I see it, what they represent is the future of interactive storytelling in video games. And over the years, it seems developers like Atlus, Bioware and David Cage are increasingly moving towards that direction, though mainstream video games still have a very long way to go before they eventually reach the standards of Visual Novels.

black_chamber99

I am replaying YU-NO which is a visual novel and it has an exceptional plot with a well made script and great voice acting.

My favorite part about the story is that it doesn't leave loose ends.

This guy explains it better than me.

About plot.

YU-NO is cerebral in the ways it challenges morals and logic. Despite balancing the very delicate time travel aspect, it also goes into philosophies of religion, history and introduces both traditional and contemporary mythology in the form of unknown creatures and alien technology. There is little time to fully digest events as they take place, with so many questions left unanswered, and time always against you. From one universe to another, confusion and images of terror will often be the very last thing experienced before entering the tranquility of its parallel universe changing all that is around Takuya. And yet even with all these elements where one slip could result in plot holes or irrational leaps of logic, the writing is always able to support the immense weight of the responsibilities it has to keep everything in balance. Every mystery and every twist has an answer, and every answer reveals enough to satisfy the most skeptic of minds.

About voice acting

In YU-NO, every spoken line has meaning, comes from something real and is never treated as a throwaway aspect. And though the spoken lines are Japanese, the emotion of the delivery is universally understood, from the times of laughter to the times of deadly fear, the performers are able to communicate the intended message without any doubt.

About music

The soundtrack is not the kind that immediately kicks up to 5th gear and remains high in adrenaline and tempo, but rather one that always keeps the emotional background relevant and in place, telling a story in music as much as the game does in writing and speech.

huh? this game?

this is a hentai isn't it? :?

how can a hentai (something designed to get you off) be so deep? :?

Because it's not really much of a hentai.

Out of the 60+ hours of gameplay only a very few percent of it can be qualified as hentai.

It would be the same as a movie having a sex scene in it.

A lot of the James Bond movies have sex scenes in them yet they are not called porn flicks.

[QUOTE="RyviusARC"]

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

Regarding the whole games vs movies debate, I'll just throw in my two cents...

Initially, I never thought games could have stories that could rival great movies, but then a few years ago I started trying out games from this one particular genre called the Visual Novel... and quite frankly, a lot of these VN games (or at least the good ones, not the trashy B-movie hentai ones) have better narratives than most movies, while some VN's even have narratives that are impressive enough to rival even the best of movie storytelling. In fact, it's not uncommon in Japan for the narratives in VN games to be adapted into popular anime, movies, or shows... and even despite that, fans often consider the original VN's to have the superior narratives compared to their more traditional anime/movie/television counterparts.

While many gamers might debate whether Visual Novels actually count as video games, that's besides the point. The way I see it, what they represent is the future of interactive storytelling in video games. And over the years, it seems developers like Atlus, Bioware and David Cage are increasingly moving towards that direction, though mainstream video games still have a very long way to go before they eventually reach the standards of Visual Novels.

black_chamber99

I am replaying YU-NO which is a visual novel and it has an exceptional plot with a well made script and great voice acting.

My favorite part about the story is that it doesn't leave loose ends.

This guy explains it better than me.

About plot.

YU-NO is cerebral in the ways it challenges morals and logic. Despite balancing the very delicate time travel aspect, it also goes into philosophies of religion, history and introduces both traditional and contemporary mythology in the form of unknown creatures and alien technology. There is little time to fully digest events as they take place, with so many questions left unanswered, and time always against you. From one universe to another, confusion and images of terror will often be the very last thing experienced before entering the tranquility of its parallel universe changing all that is around Takuya. And yet even with all these elements where one slip could result in plot holes or irrational leaps of logic, the writing is always able to support the immense weight of the responsibilities it has to keep everything in balance. Every mystery and every twist has an answer, and every answer reveals enough to satisfy the most skeptic of minds.

About voice acting

In YU-NO, every spoken line has meaning, comes from something real and is never treated as a throwaway aspect. And though the spoken lines are Japanese, the emotion of the delivery is universally understood, from the times of laughter to the times of deadly fear, the performers are able to communicate the intended message without any doubt.

About music

The soundtrack is not the kind that immediately kicks up to 5th gear and remains high in adrenaline and tempo, but rather one that always keeps the emotional background relevant and in place, telling a story in music as much as the game does in writing and speech.

huh? this game?

this is a hentai isn't it? :?

how can a hentai--something to get you off--be so deep? :?

Let' put it this way: You know how so many Hollywood movies always have sex scenes thrown in? The same goes for a lot of Visual Novels.

Hell, even The Godfather had female nudity (and controversially, the Italian actress who did it was apparently underage at the time!). Does that mean it's no longer one of the greatest movies ever made? Similarly, YU-NO has a few sex scenes, and yet despite that, it still has one of the best narratives ever told in the video game medium. In fact, the script is so long (estimated to be nearly a million words when translated into English, longer than most books) that the sex scenes only make up a tiny percentage of the overall narrative. It's worth noting, however, that there is also a censored version of YU-NO available, with the sex scenes removed, so it makes no difference either way.

And to be honest, I sense some double standards here. If a mainstream game, like say Mass Effect, Heavy Rain, or Catherine, contains a sex scene or two, that would be considered "progressive". But if a Visual Novel with a far superior narrative, like say YU-NO, has a few sex scenes... it's suddenly a "hentai" porno game? 

Anyway, it's worth noting that the majority of Visual Novels released in Japan do not have any sex scenes in them. In fact, nearly all the great VN's I mentioned above (Clannad, Steins Gate, Out of Infinity, Zero Escape, Machi, 428) do not have any sex scenes in them. Hell, two of those VN's I mentioned don't even have any of the "anime" art styles we associate with the genre.

Also while reading that review I came across another part which illustrates the problem with plot structure in a lot of games.

This guy explains it well and the Metal Gear Solid series could be the poster child for it.

The fact is also that writing in video games has always been an awfully unsteady part of the overall product, and what mass audiences perceive as good writing in video games doesn't necessarily manage to keep its head over water for the majority of the story it tells. A twist in character alignment, a supposed good guy secretly working for the bad guys, a president on the other end of the phone line, or a silver haired man with a 14 foot sword growing inside a mountain, a reputed good story is often at the disadvantage of logic and as they continue on, they fall into their own hyperbole, further complicating the story by simply adding more twists, more characters and more questions. With YU-NO, the story manages to keep at height by concentrating on a smaller cast of characters. Kanno was never in doubt how one would get from A to B, and as such the story never takes a shortcut or leap simply to get past a tough spot. Ironically, while many games today struggle to establish a concise world and narrative through numerous sequels and merchandise, YU-NO changes its world in an instant multiple times, yet remains a much more complete entity.

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/yuno/yuno.htm

 

Let' put it this way: You know how so many Hollywood movies always have sex scenes thrown in? The same goes for a lot of Visual Novels.

Hell, even The Godfather had female nudity (and controversially, the Italian actress who did it was apparently underage at the time!). Does that mean it's no longer one of the greatest movies ever made? Similarly, YU-NO has a few sex scenes, and yet despite that, it still has one of the best narratives ever told in the video game medium. In fact, the script is so long (estimated to be nearly a million words when translated into English, longer than most books) that the sex scenes only make up a tiny percentage of the overall narrative. It's worth noting, however, that there is also a censored version of YU-NO available, with the sex scenes removed, so it makes no difference either way.

And to be honest, I sense some double standards here. If a mainstream game, like say Mass Effect, Heavy Rain, or Catherine, contains a sex scene or two, that would be considered "progressive". But if a Visual Novel with a far superior narrative, like say YU-NO, has a few sex scenes... it's suddenly a "hentai" porno game? 

Anyway, it's worth noting that the majority of Visual Novels released in Japan do not have any sex scenes in them. In fact, nearly all the great VN's I mentioned above (Clannad, Steins Gate, Out of Infinity, Zero Escape, Machi, 428) do not have any sex scenes in them. Hell, two of those VN's I mentioned don't even have any of the "anime" art styles we associate with the genre.

Jag85

I wonder how far you can stretch the definition of Visual Novel.

Some games that are categorized as visual novels have rpg elements in them.

So I guess Games like Hotel Dusk can be defined as a visual novel as well.

I enjoyed that game for the atmosphere and characters.

On the topic of sex scenes, it took around 12 hours to even reach one in YU-NO and as you mentioned before they can be disabled.

Nic Cage

Nic Cage

soiheardyoulike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eExfV_xKaiM

Also while reading that review I came across another part which illustrates the problem with plot structure in a lot of games.

This guy explains it well and the Metal Gear Solid series could be the poster child for it.

 

The fact is also that writing in video games has always been an awfully unsteady part of the overall product, and what mass audiences perceive as good writing in video games doesn't necessarily manage to keep its head over water for the majority of the story it tells. A twist in character alignment, a supposed good guy secretly working for the bad guys, a president on the other end of the phone line, or a silver haired man with a 14 foot sword growing inside a mountain, a reputed good story is often at the disadvantage of logic and as they continue on, they fall into their own hyperbole, further complicating the story by simply adding more twists, more characters and more questions. With YU-NO, the story manages to keep at height by concentrating on a smaller cast of characters. Kanno was never in doubt how one would get from A to B, and as such the story never takes a shortcut or leap simply to get past a tough spot. Ironically, while many games today struggle to establish a concise world and narrative through numerous sequels and merchandise, YU-NO changes its world in an instant multiple times, yet remains a much more complete entity.RyviusARC

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/yuno/yuno.htm

I read that article some time back. The article's European writer was apparently a good friend of the composer Ryu Umemoto, and the article was written shortly after he died. The game's main writer & director, Hiroyuki Kanno, also died just a few months after. It's ironic how it's only after the original duo/team passed away that their magnum opus YU-NO is finally translated and starting to get the attention it deserves outside of Japan. 

This is like asking which is the better body function crap or puke? I wouldn't pay full price or stream for free a movie made by either....

I wonder how far you can stretch the definition of Visual Novel.

Some games that are categorized as visual novels have rpg elements in them.

So I guess Games like Hotel Dusk can be defined as a visual novel as well.

I enjoyed that game for the atmosphere and characters.

 

On the topic of sex scenes, it took around 12 hours to even reach one in YU-NO and as you mentioned before they can be disabled.

RyviusARC

With so many people referring to The Walking Dead as a "Visual Novel", I think the genre definition is starting to get blurred. When it comes to games like Hotel Dusk, Ace Attorney or The Walking Dead (and to an extent, maybe the Zero Escape games and Catherine), I'd say they're on the borderline between a traditional Adventure game and a Visual Novel.

Speaing of Kojima, he also created two earlier Visual Novel / Adventure games: Snatcher and Policenauts. These games have very good scripts that are a lot more focused and nowhere near as convoluted as his later Metal Gear scripts.

[QUOTE="RyviusARC"]

I wonder how far you can stretch the definition of Visual Novel.

Some games that are categorized as visual novels have rpg elements in them.

So I guess Games like Hotel Dusk can be defined as a visual novel as well.

I enjoyed that game for the atmosphere and characters.

 

On the topic of sex scenes, it took around 12 hours to even reach one in YU-NO and as you mentioned before they can be disabled.

Jag85

With so many people referring to The Walking Dead as a "Visual Novel", I think the genre definition is starting to get blurred. When it comes to games like Hotel Dusk, Ace Attorney or The Walking Dead (and to an extent, maybe the Zero Escape games and Catherine), I'd say they're on the borderline between a traditional Adventure game and a Visual Novel.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="RyviusARC"]

I wonder how far you can stretch the definition of Visual Novel.

Some games that are categorized as visual novels have rpg elements in them.

So I guess Games like Hotel Dusk can be defined as a visual novel as well.

I enjoyed that game for the atmosphere and characters.

 

On the topic of sex scenes, it took around 12 hours to even reach one in YU-NO and as you mentioned before they can be disabled.

Lulekani

With so many people referring to The Walking Dead as a "Visual Novel", I think the genre definition is starting to get blurred. When it comes to games like Hotel Dusk, Ace Attorney or The Walking Dead (and to an extent, maybe the Zero Escape games and Catherine), I'd say they're on the borderline between a traditional Adventure game and a Visual Novel.

That's pretty much how nearly every video game genre evolved over the years, more or less.

Speaing of Kojima, he also created two earlier Visual Novel / Adventure games: Snatcher and Policenauts. These games have very good scripts that are a lot more focused and nowhere near as convoluted as his later Metal Gear scripts.

Jag85

I like both Policenauts and Snatcher.

There is a translated version of Policenauts for the PS1.

I kind of wish they would do an HD remake of Policenauts.

The art work was heavily compressed to fit on the PS1 and it comes out looking really blurry.

I find some of the PC-98 artwork to be better because of the higher resolution despite the lack of color variety.

An HD release would just require the original artwork to be used without the need of heavy compression.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

Speaing of Kojima, he also created two earlier Visual Novel / Adventure games: Snatcher and Policenauts. These games have very good scripts that are a lot more focused and nowhere near as convoluted as his later Metal Gear scripts.

RyviusARC

I like both Policenauts and Snatcher.

There is a translated version of Policenauts for the PS1.

I kind of wish they would do an HD remake of Policenauts.

The art work was heavily compressed to fit on the PS1 and it comes out looking really blurry.

I find some of the PC-98 artwork to be better because of the higher resolution despite the lack of color variety.

An HD release would just require the original artwork to be used without the need of heavy compression.

Seems like a nice idea. A lot of PC-98 classics (Snatcher, Policenauts, YU-NO, etc.) would benefit from a HD remake, combining the higher resolution of the original NEC PC-98 versions with the higher colour palettes of the Saturn & PS1 ports. It should be fine as long as they don't tamper with the original artworks, trying to update them into a "modern" anime style (which I don't find as appealing as the old-school anime style).

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] Except no one is arguing most. It's a matter of the good/great stuff vs the good/great stuff and in that department the good/great stuff in Film is significantly better than what gaming has to offer.

Not gonna dog Homeland too hard since they can technically bounce back(plus that opening season and a half was really good, season 2 just had a dumb second half), but Dexter is badly written nonsense that has routinely been carried by Michael C. Hall, and a guest killer(Trinity in Season 4s case). Otherwise they've been prolonging that series by avoiding going down its natural direction, and just rebooting it season after season to tell essentially the same shit so he can "discover his humanity"

It's only been recently they've actually started working towards an end game. If you enjoy the show that's fine, but don't tell me it's in the same ball park if you're basing this on your only exposure to film beng the blockbusters and whatever they gave an award to at the Oscars.

jg4xchamp

Don't watch oscars or go by ratings (since most ratings give high scores to artsy fartsy garbage).  Dexter had a slow point for a season or so, but it took good leaps and bounds for most of the rest of it.  Homeland keeps getting better in my opinion.  

Please give me some examples of movies.  When I say most movies I mean like 90%.  And it just isnt fair to judge the amount of great stories in games vs movies.  games have been around a lot less time than movies, not too mention how technology plays a part in it.

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind sucks :?.  They took a decent idea and made it terribly boring and repetitive.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

Don't watch oscars or go by ratings (since most ratings give high scores to artsy fartsy garbage).  Dexter had a slow point for a season or so, but it took good leaps and bounds for most of the rest of it.  Homeland keeps getting better in my opinion.  

 

Please give me some examples of movies.  When I say most movies I mean like 90%.  And it just isnt fair to judge the amount of great stories in games vs movies.  games have been around a lot less time than movies, not too mention how technology plays a part in it.

 

NaveedLife

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind sucks :?.  They took a decent idea and made it terribly boring and repetitive.

[QUOTE="RyviusARC"]

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

Speaing of Kojima, he also created two earlier Visual Novel / Adventure games: Snatcher and Policenauts. These games have very good scripts that are a lot more focused and nowhere near as convoluted as his later Metal Gear scripts.

Jag85

I like both Policenauts and Snatcher.

There is a translated version of Policenauts for the PS1.

I kind of wish they would do an HD remake of Policenauts.

The art work was heavily compressed to fit on the PS1 and it comes out looking really blurry.

I find some of the PC-98 artwork to be better because of the higher resolution despite the lack of color variety.

An HD release would just require the original artwork to be used without the need of heavy compression.

Seems like a nice idea. A lot of PC-98 classics (Snatcher, Policenauts, YU-NO, etc.) would benefit from a HD remake, combining the higher resolution of the original NEC PC-98 versions with the higher colour palettes of the Saturn & PS1 ports. It should be fine as long as they don't tamper with the original artworks, trying to update them into a "modern" anime style (which I don't find as appealing as the old-school anime style).

All they would basically have to do would be to take the Original PS1 artwork and not compress it as much.

Kojima is popular enough that if he released a HD version of Policenauts that it would get decent sales and it wouldn't require much work.

Although I think they might have to get English voice actors instead of just Japanese voices with English subtitles.

I too like the older anime art style. I also like it when the facial features are slightly more realistic.

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] You can use the 90% of any medium is garbage line for anything though. Greatness is actually rare, not something common. And the garbage isn't what anyone should focus on. But yeah if we have to ignore that film has the leg up on sheer quantity due to being at higher playing field for almost a century now, then okay Sin Nombre, Yi Yi, Lost in Translation, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Y Tu Mama Tambien, Infernal Affairs, Children of Men, etc. And a good chunk of them didn't need tech to justify their narrative, and frankly gaming shouldn't either.

Planescape Torment came out in 1999, and Mother 3(two very good gaming stories) was on the game boy advance. And it's totally fair to compare the greats to greats. If gaming wants to be considered art it can't just be good narrative by "videogame standards" and a good chunk of the good stories can't just come from the adventure gaming genre. No other medium gets judged(especially film, the standards in that medium are a lot higher) in such a bubble, but for some reason gaming should?

As far as Dexter forget being up to snuff with film, it's not even close to being up to snuff with actual good TV.

sammyjenkis898

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind sucks :?.  They took a decent idea and made it terribly boring and repetitive.

Nah i am not missing his point.  MGS has one of the best and most entertaining stories in story history (for me of course, since its an opinion).  He obviously enjoys some thigns I don't enjoy, since ESOTSM was pretty darn mediocre and a far cry from some games and movies out there.  Again, my opinion.  

[QUOTE="sammyjenkis898"][QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind sucks :?.  They took a decent idea and made it terribly boring and repetitive.

NaveedLife

Nah i am not missing his point.  MGS has one of the best and most entertaining stories in story history (for me of course, since its an opinion).  He obviously enjoys some thigns I don't enjoy, since ESOTSM was pretty darn mediocre and a far cry from some games and movies out there.  Again, my opinion.  

just curious but how old are you?

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

[QUOTE="sammyjenkis898"] You're missing his point entirely. Also, you're wrong. That's one of the best examples to give for modern film.black_chamber99

Nah i am not missing his point.  MGS has one of the best and most entertaining stories in story history (for me of course, since its an opinion).  He obviously enjoys some thigns I don't enjoy, since ESOTSM was pretty darn mediocre and a far cry from some games and movies out there.  Again, my opinion.  

just curious but how old are you?

Age isn't always the factor for someone liking mediocre stuff.

It's also experience that changes one's opinion.

Without ever experiencing higher quality stuff they won't know what they are missing and their standards won't rise.