Bioshock Infinite edning and story is a total cop out and unfair (some spoilers)

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beganoo

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#451 beganoo
Member since 2009 • 1642 Posts

Let me just say this even tho I really don't want to get back in to thread.

 

If people think that killing someone to chancge the future is original and brilliant there are quite ignorant.Its been done hundreds of times. Plus bioshock did it poorly in my opinion thanks to the quantum/multiverse  but lets not open that can of worms again.

 

What was so brilliant about Bioshock 1 ending was that in so many games you are told what to do and you never question it.The hole twist was a huge play on gaming in general not just the plot of the game.Now thats brilliant.

 

I really hope people would see how overrated this game is both on the gameplay and story (the acting too) side in due time .Its a good game, 7.5-8 for me but MAN are people exaggerating the quality of this game .Might be a while tho.The hype train for this game is a strong one.One of the strongest I've ever seen.What   brilliant marketing... remember the video in which the booker voice actor was insulting elizabeth voice actress to make her upsest ? Man man man... what marketing!I loved that so much wen I saw it. I don't think that scene was even in the game.

 

The one brilliant and original thing the game did was the racist themes. It was a new kind of horror for games.Not the old dark corridors and monsters but racism.Ofcourse they droped it way to fast in favor of quantum physics (f*cking really ?). Epic fail for me.

 

jiz

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NAPK1NS

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#452 NAPK1NS
Member since 2004 • 14870 Posts

Let me just say this even tho I really don't want to get back in to thread.

 

If people think that killing someone to chancge the future is original and brilliant there are quite ignorant.Its been done hundreds of times. Plus bioshock did it poorly in my opinion thanks to the quantum/multiverse  but lets not open that can of worms again.

 

What was so brilliant about Bioshock 1 ending was that in so many games you are told what to do and you never question it.The hole twist was a huge play on gaming in general not just the plot of the game.Now thats brilliant.

 

I really hope people would see how overrated this game is both on the gameplay and story (the acting too) side in due time .Its a good game, 7.5-8 for me but MAN are people exaggerating the quality of this game .Might be a while tho.The hype train for this game is a strong one.One of the strongest I've ever seen.What   brilliant marketing... remember the video in which the booker voice actor was insulting elizabeth voice actress to make her upsest ? Man man man... what marketing!I loved that so much wen I saw it. I don't think that scene was even in the game.

beganoo

Please, no more. I've purposefully not posted as to not bump the thread. But it simply will not die. You don't raise good points and you're completely inarticulate. We hear you, but no one really agrees. Buh-bye.

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Bread_or_Decide

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#453 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29761 Posts

Let me just say this even tho I really don't want to get back in to thread.

 

If people think that killing someone to chancge the future is original and brilliant there are quite ignorant.Its been done hundreds of times. Plus bioshock did it poorly in my opinion thanks to the quantum/multiverse  but lets not open that can of worms again.

 

What was so brilliant about Bioshock 1 ending was that in so many games you are told what to do and you never question it.The hole twist was a huge play on gaming in general not just the plot of the game.Now thats brilliant.

 

I really hope people would see how overrated this game is both on the gameplay and story (the acting too) side in due time .Its a good game, 7.5-8 for me but MAN are people exaggerating the quality of this game .Might be a while tho.The hype train for this game is a strong one.One of the strongest I've ever seen.What   brilliant marketing... remember the video in which the booker voice actor was insulting elizabeth voice actress to make her upsest ? Man man man... what marketing!I loved that so much wen I saw it. I don't think that scene was even in the game.

beganoo
Yeah I like the ending but some peoples reaction to it, well you have to wonder how many games and movies they've seen and played. Bioshock Infinite cleverly explains WHY it's so similar to the first bioshock. That was the best part of the ending. Almost on par with "would you kindly." The multiverse and 15 minutes of explaining are convoluted.
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Bread_or_Decide

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#454 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29761 Posts
INFAMOUS SPOILERS Btw Infamous already did the "villain is the hero but another universe or future" twist.
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Bread_or_Decide

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#455 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29761 Posts

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

Let me just say this even tho I really don't want to get back in to thread.

 

If people think that killing someone to chancge the future is original and brilliant there are quite ignorant.Its been done hundreds of times. Plus bioshock did it poorly in my opinion thanks to the quantum/multiverse  but lets not open that can of worms again.

 

What was so brilliant about Bioshock 1 ending was that in so many games you are told what to do and you never question it.The hole twist was a huge play on gaming in general not just the plot of the game.Now thats brilliant.

 

I really hope people would see how overrated this game is both on the gameplay and story (the acting too) side in due time .Its a good game, 7.5-8 for me but MAN are people exaggerating the quality of this game .Might be a while tho.The hype train for this game is a strong one.One of the strongest I've ever seen.What   brilliant marketing... remember the video in which the booker voice actor was insulting elizabeth voice actress to make her upsest ? Man man man... what marketing!I loved that so much wen I saw it. I don't think that scene was even in the game.

NAPK1NS

Please, no more. I've purposefully not posted as to not bump the thread. But it simply will not die. You don't raise good points and you're completely inarticulate. We hear you, but no one really agrees. Buh-bye.

Speak for yourself. He raises a few good points.
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beganoo

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#456 beganoo
Member since 2009 • 1642 Posts

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

Let me just say this even tho I really don't want to get back in to thread.

 

If people think that killing someone to chancge the future is original and brilliant there are quite ignorant.Its been done hundreds of times. Plus bioshock did it poorly in my opinion thanks to the quantum/multiverse  but lets not open that can of worms again.

 

What was so brilliant about Bioshock 1 ending was that in so many games you are told what to do and you never question it.The hole twist was a huge play on gaming in general not just the plot of the game.Now thats brilliant.

 

I really hope people would see how overrated this game is both on the gameplay and story (the acting too) side in due time .Its a good game, 7.5-8 for me but MAN are people exaggerating the quality of this game .Might be a while tho.The hype train for this game is a strong one.One of the strongest I've ever seen.What   brilliant marketing... remember the video in which the booker voice actor was insulting elizabeth voice actress to make her upsest ? Man man man... what marketing!I loved that so much wen I saw it. I don't think that scene was even in the game.

NAPK1NS

Please, no more. I've purposefully not posted as to not bump the thread. But it simply will not die. You don't raise good points and you're completely inarticulate. We hear you, but no one really agrees. Buh-bye.

 

I don't even remember talking to you.Oh well.Buh-bye.

 

P.S. Read some more.Plenty agree.

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jg4xchamp

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#457 jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64054 Posts

Let me just say this even tho I really don't want to get back in to thread.

 

If people think that killing someone to chancge the future is original and brilliant there are quite ignorant. beganoo

Not what people enjoyed about the ending or has really been pointed out about the ending

 

What was so brilliant about Bioshock 1 ending was that in so many games you are told what to do and you never question it.The hole twist was a huge play on gaming in general not just the plot of the game.Now thats brilliant.

Neither one of Bioshock's actual endings(you know the stuff that followed the Ryan twist) hold up very well. One is just super cheesy in its attempt to be poignant, and the other is like a gamer definition of epic and dark to the point where it's just ridiculous.

 

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beganoo

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#458 beganoo
Member since 2009 • 1642 Posts

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

Let me just say this even tho I really don't want to get back in to thread.

 

If people think that killing someone to chancge the future is original and brilliant there are quite ignorant. jg4xchamp

Not what people enjoyed about the ending or has really been pointed out about the ending

 

What was so brilliant about Bioshock 1 ending was that in so many games you are told what to do and you never question it.The hole twist was a huge play on gaming in general not just the plot of the game.Now thats brilliant.

Neither one of Bioshock's actual endings(you know the stuff that followed the Ryan twist) hold up very well. One is just super cheesy in its attempt to be poignant, and the other is like a gamer definition of epic and dark to the point where it's just ridiculous.

 

 

I've heard many people  called it original.Not necessarily all of it in this thread but I  have.Also wen people say that something is mind blowing most of the times they mean they have never seen anything like it and they feel its "original".Whatever. Orginal or not my point was that it was done poorly but I'm not getting in to this again in this thread period.

 

As far as your take on the Bioshock 1 ending.

opinions.jpg

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DarkLink77

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#459 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

Let me just say this even tho I really don't want to get back in to thread.

 

If people think that killing someone to chancge the future is original and brilliant there are quite ignorant. beganoo

Not what people enjoyed about the ending or has really been pointed out about the ending

 

What was so brilliant about Bioshock 1 ending was that in so many games you are told what to do and you never question it.The hole twist was a huge play on gaming in general not just the plot of the game.Now thats brilliant.

Neither one of Bioshock's actual endings(you know the stuff that followed the Ryan twist) hold up very well. One is just super cheesy in its attempt to be poignant, and the other is like a gamer definition of epic and dark to the point where it's just ridiculous.

 

 

I've heard mmany people  called it original.Not necessarily all of it in this thread but I  have.Also wen people say that something is mind blowing most of the times they mean they have never seen anything like it and they feel its "original".Whatever. orginal or not my point was that it was done poorley but I'm not getting in to this again in this thread period.

 

As far as your take Bioshock 1 ending.

opinions.jpg

I don't think anyone here has said it's original. And Bioshock falling apart after the "Would You Kindly" reveal is pretty much a universal opinion. Even Irrational admits it.
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jg4xchamp

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#460 jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64054 Posts

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

Let me just say this even tho I really don't want to get back in to thread.

 

If people think that killing someone to chancge the future is original and brilliant there are quite ignorant. beganoo

Not what people enjoyed about the ending or has really been pointed out about the ending

 

What was so brilliant about Bioshock 1 ending was that in so many games you are told what to do and you never question it.The hole twist was a huge play on gaming in general not just the plot of the game.Now thats brilliant.

Neither one of Bioshock's actual endings(you know the stuff that followed the Ryan twist) hold up very well. One is just super cheesy in its attempt to be poignant, and the other is like a gamer definition of epic and dark to the point where it's just ridiculous.

 

 

I've heard many people  called it original.Not necessarily all of it in this thread but I  have.Also wen people say that something is mind blowing most of the times they mean they have never seen anything like it and they feel its "original".Whatever. Orginal or not my point was that it was done poorly but I'm not getting in to this again in this thread period.

 

As far as your take on the Bioshock 1 ending.

opinions.jpg

Or it was just that well executed?

And do not f*cking go the "That's your opinion" route after you made this thread with the inane ass drivel you've posted in it. What the hell did you think those were? Facts? Learn to English Bro.

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Phazevariance

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#461 Phazevariance
Member since 2003 • 12356 Posts

I just beat it, pretty neat ending/story overall. The relationship to rapture being an alternate dimension of columbia was nice. Seeing as dewitt can operate the bathysphere he must be genetically similar to andrew ryan/dewitt but if only for the time difference where 1960's for Bioshock 1 and 1912 for infinite. Of course that is unless you consider that each 'option' or choice has an alternate reality where the oposite is true.

So, booker had a girl in infinite and the comstock/dewitt events happened with elizabeth/anna. But then there was a dimension where he had a boy, who would be the exact age required to be andrew ryan in rapture, making dewitt his father. Jack being a clone or illegitmate son of ryan. That would actually make andrew ryan the alternate to elizabeth.

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beganoo

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#463 beganoo
Member since 2009 • 1642 Posts

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

Let me just say this even tho I really don't want to get back in to thread.

 

If people think that killing someone to chancge the future is original and brilliant there are quite ignorant. jg4xchamp

Not what people enjoyed about the ending or has really been pointed out about the ending

 

What was so brilliant about Bioshock 1 ending was that in so many games you are told what to do and you never question it.The hole twist was a huge play on gaming in general not just the plot of the game.Now thats brilliant.

Neither one of Bioshock's actual endings(you know the stuff that followed the Ryan twist) hold up very well. One is just super cheesy in its attempt to be poignant, and the other is like a gamer definition of epic and dark to the point where it's just ridiculous.

 

 

I've heard many people  called it original.Not necessarily all of it in this thread but I  have.Also wen people say that something is mind blowing most of the times they mean they have never seen anything like it and they feel its "original".Whatever. Orginal or not my point was that it was done poorly but I'm not getting in to this again in this thread period.

 

As far as your take on the Bioshock 1 ending.

opinions.jpg

Or it was just that well executed?

And do not f*cking go the "That's your opinion" route after you made this thread with the inane ass drivel you've posted in it. What the hell did you think those were? Facts? Learn to English Bro.

 

I just love how salty I'm making people.You know what they say.Only the truth hurts.

 

I've posted a absolutely uncontroversial post and this joker here quotes it and its all riled up and aggressive.Hilarious.

 

And yes it is your opinion and what I said was my opinion.Never said anything about facts.Actually what I said is that nothing can be a fact wen It comes to things like a multiverse.Interpretation is big part of this.Can't be any other way with quantum theory.You are discovering a brand new world ! People have different opinions.Congrats ?

Also this in english.Just so you know. Got any of it ?

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mems_1224

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#464 mems_1224
Member since 2004 • 56919 Posts

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

 

I've heard many people  called it original.Not necessarily all of it in this thread but I  have.Also wen people say that something is mind blowing most of the times they mean they have never seen anything like it and they feel its "original".Whatever. Orginal or not my point was that it was done poorly but I'm not getting in to this again in this thread period.

 

As far as your take on the Bioshock 1 ending.

opinions.jpg

beganoo

Or it was just that well executed?

And do not f*cking go the "That's your opinion" route after you made this thread with the inane ass drivel you've posted in it. What the hell did you think those were? Facts? Learn to English Bro.

 

I just love how salty I'm making people.You know what they say.Only the truth hurts.

 

I've posted a absolutely uncontroversial post and this joker here quotes it and its all riled up and aggressive.Hilarious.

 

And yes it is your opinion and what I said was my opinion.Never said anything about facts.Actually what I said is that nothing can be a fact wen It comes to things like a multiverse.Interpretation is big part of this.Can't be any other way with quantum theory.You are discovering a brand new world ! People have different opinions.Congrats ?

Also this in english.Just so you know. Got any of it ?

You lost bro, let it go.
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beganoo

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#465 beganoo
Member since 2009 • 1642 Posts

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] Or it was just that well executed?

And do not f*cking go the "That's your opinion" route after you made this thread with the inane ass drivel you've posted in it. What the hell did you think those were? Facts? Learn to English Bro.

mems_1224

 

I just love how salty I'm making people.You know what they say.Only the truth hurts.

 

I've posted a absolutely uncontroversial post and this joker here quotes it and its all riled up and aggressive.Hilarious.

 

And yes it is your opinion and what I said was my opinion.Never said anything about facts.Actually what I said is that nothing can be a fact wen It comes to things like a multiverse.Interpretation is big part of this.Can't be any other way with quantum theory.You are discovering a brand new world ! People have different opinions.Congrats ?

Also this in english.Just so you know. Got any of it ?

You lost bro, let it go.

 

No no.I think I won. Made like atleast 30 people mad and salty because I don't think a game is as good as they do.Thats pretty funny in my book.I wasn't even trolling.People get self trolled.Now thats a win.

 

"Oh no you think the explanation of how Elizabeth got her powers is dumb ? Inconceivable." I'm gonna be mad at your english now.

And I might have used a bit too much profanity here and there but hey... f*ck it.:P

 

 

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Quaker-w00ts

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#466 Quaker-w00ts
Member since 2009 • 1646 Posts

Deer-Lord.jpg

What a fantastic game.

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onnabushi

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#467 onnabushi
Member since 2013 • 25 Posts

[QUOTE="onnabushi"][QUOTE="sts106mat"] but because you don't get it, you would think that.sts106mat

I get that's why I able to explain all the problems with it. You're just in denial aren't you?

you have problems with the story of a game which is set on a floating city in the sky where you can jump to different universes and shoot birds out of your hand.  LOL   yeah i am in denial.

Apparently you are, since you think asking some one to suspend disbelief for the premise for a fantasy/sci-fi story is them same as deus ex machina, ignoring the laws of causality and being logically inconsistent
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onnabushi

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#470 onnabushi
Member since 2013 • 25 Posts

[QUOTE="onnabushi"][QUOTE="sts106mat"]you have problems with the story of a game which is set on a floating city in the sky where you can jump to different universes and shoot birds out of your hand.  LOL   yeah i am in denial.

sts106mat

Apparently you are, since you think asking some one to suspend disbelief for the premise for a fantasy/sci-fi story is them same as deus ex machina, ignoring the laws of causality and being logically inconsistent

So you are unable to respond?
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#471 skittlebit
Member since 2013 • 25 Posts
Basically in this thread there are people claiming there are no plot holes in a game that involves multiple dimensions and time travel...ok. You don't even need to play the game to know there will be holes. Ignore the holes, which really isn't that big of a deal, the entire game is summed up by a deux ex machina. Basically, Elizabeth becomes omni-potent, explains everything to you, and then kills you. Amazing story, the best stories need a character to explain everything to you at the end ofc. /sarcasm. Not to mention they never really have to write a story, if a problem arrives, "O look, a tear that solves the problem." Its really just lazy story writing, basically using the multiverse as a convenient fix to everything. Not a terrible game of course, but probably a 7.5-8.5 range. It not like anything in it was particularly spectacular, well besides the hype. Still can't believe this is the "best game I've ever played," for some people, but i guess falling for hype will do that to you. Like when Halo 4 came out. "BEST GAME EVER 10/10," now no one cares because it was like all of the other games.
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the_bi99man

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#472 the_bi99man
Member since 2004 • 11465 Posts

God damned level 1 bringing up dead topics.

This has been discussed to death. There's a reason this behemoth thread finally died.

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Krelian-co

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#473 Krelian-co
Member since 2006 • 13274 Posts

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

 

I've heard many people  called it original.Not necessarily all of it in this thread but I  have.Also wen people say that something is mind blowing most of the times they mean they have never seen anything like it and they feel its "original".Whatever. Orginal or not my point was that it was done poorly but I'm not getting in to this again in this thread period.

 

As far as your take on the Bioshock 1 ending.

opinions.jpg

beganoo

Or it was just that well executed?

And do not f*cking go the "That's your opinion" route after you made this thread with the inane ass drivel you've posted in it. What the hell did you think those were? Facts? Learn to English Bro.

 

I just love how salty I'm making people.You know what they say.Only the truth hurts.

 

I've posted a absolutely uncontroversial post and this joker here quotes it and its all riled up and aggressive.Hilarious.

 

And yes it is your opinion and what I said was my opinion.Never said anything about facts.Actually what I said is that nothing can be a fact wen It comes to things like a multiverse.Interpretation is big part of this.Can't be any other way with quantum theory.You are discovering a brand new world ! People have different opinions.Congrats ?

Also this in english.Just so you know. Got any of it ?

you must have quite the sad life if you think you accomplished something by making someone angry over the internet gz.

37480630.jpg

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Rattlesnake_8

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#474 Rattlesnake_8
Member since 2004 • 18452 Posts
Blog it?
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dramaybaz

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#475 dramaybaz
Member since 2005 • 6020 Posts
....The ending was well thought out. Yes it had to do with quantum physics, I realised that halfway through the game, but in no way was that a spoiler. The game explores the many worlds hypothesis for Multiverse. Couple that with strong story and revelations at the end, both for the game, AND the series. Masterpiece!
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skrat_01

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#476 skrat_01
Member since 2007 • 33767 Posts

What was so brilliant about Bioshock 1 ending was that in so many games you are told what to do and you never question it.The hole twist was a huge play on gaming in general not just the plot of the game.Now thats brilliant.

beganoo
That wasn't the ending though. I won't disagree, it's a great piece of meta commentary and it was executed really, really damn well, but Bioshock's actual ending and final third is just bad. I mean you're fighting ****ing Atlas from the cover of Atlas Shrugged - symbolism doesn't often get that dumb, let alone the massive story problems in the two seperate endings -altruism vs skeletor- and how the game just doesn't change after you figuratively and literally 'break free from your shackles'; the protag is still a killbot with less of a personality then a Dalek. Not to say Infinite doesn't have problems - it has them in spades as far as I'm concerned, however in regard to both games they're better as the sum of their parts, even in terms of story. That being said I honestly think the first Bioshock was a whole lot more elegant in how it handled environmental storytelling, and let a lot of the narrative take a backseat, to Infinite's heavy scripting; though that's a matter of taste ultimately.
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skrat_01

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#477 skrat_01
Member since 2007 • 33767 Posts
....The ending was well thought out. Yes it had to do with quantum physics, I realised that halfway through the game, but in no way was that a spoiler. The game explores the many worlds hypothesis for Multiverse. Couple that with strong story and revelations at the end, both for the game, AND the series. Masterpiece!dramaybaz
The problem is the idea of multiverses has been better handled in science fiction (and popular science fiction, ho ho Dr Who) well before it, and the game absolutely muddles itself in the second act; throwing away all the themes and narrative hooks introduced in preference to some pretty bad commentary during the revolution sequence outright into problematic science fiction tale - and the transition (hunting for the gunsmith) is just all over the place. Don't get me wrong I liked the games story, and even the exposition dump ending, but it absolutely screamed troubled development to me at times. Anyway it's been almost done to death but there's some good criticism out there about the games internal logic, this is a pretty good one http://www.gamecritics.com/sparky-clarkson/nobody-at-the-tower.
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beganoo

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#478 beganoo
Member since 2009 • 1642 Posts

Lol this topic again.

 

My opionon hasn't really chancged but there is one thing I found out.Best part of the game by far for me but its waaaaaay too subtle and imo it should have been more fleshed out and the main twist of the game, not all the multiverse horseshit. Its is pretty genious.As much as I think ken levine is being overrated for infinite I have to give him huge props for this.Its quite the the mind fu*k.

 

Anyway apparently the songbird (SPOLIERS) dying scream from the end of infinite is in the orignal bioshock 1 that was made qutie a few  years before ofcourse.

It happens wen you are in the  theater and there is a guy tied up to a chair next to a piaon. Just before he expoldes you can hear (very quality) the song bird death scream. Now that great.

 

Funnily enough the best part of bioshock infinite for me is actually in bioshcok 1 (the superior game). Huh how things work out.

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Vaasman

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#479 Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 15874 Posts

Lol this topic again.

 

My opionon hasn't really chancged but there is one thing I found out.Best part of the game by far for me but its waaaaaay too subtle and imo it should have been more fleshed out and the main twist of the game, not all the multiverse horseshit. Its is pretty genious.As much as I think ken levine is being overrated for infinite I have to give him huge props for this.Its quite the the mind fu*k.

 

Anyway apparently the songbird (SPOLIERS) dying scream from the end of infinite is in the orignal bioshock 1 that was made qutie a few  years before ofcourse.

It happens wen you are in the  theater and there is a guy tied up to a chair next to a piaon. Just before he expoldes you can hear (very quality) the song bird death scream. Now that great.

 

Funnily enough the best part of bioshock infinite for me is actually in bioshcok 1 (the superior game). Huh how things work out.

beganoo

That isn't even real, it's just a similar sounding ambient effect. Even I wanted it to be true, but in the scene where he dies, songbird doesn't scream, he isn't inside, and it doesn't sound the same as his normal cries.

Let the thread die it's well deserved death already.

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Darth-Samus

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#480 Darth-Samus
Member since 2006 • 3995 Posts

No I'm not trolling. Hear me out.

Two words: Quantum Physics

Won't go in to too much details

Wen I first started hearing them talking about Quantum Physicists, Quantum Physics/Theories and Elizabeth started opening portals to worlds that are just "slightly different" I just got a bad taste in my mouth and I was pretty spot on what they did with it at the end.

Basically its a very fascinating theory and I recommend looking in to it if you are in that sort of thing (the hole thing about there are infinite amount of worlds and every thing that can ever happen has already happend, every single possible arrangement of all atoms ect ect) however do you know what else it is ?

THE MOTHER OF ALL PLOT HOLES. The writers can do anything, whrite anything, have a TON of plotholes (and they do ofcorse) and excuse it with Quantum Physics/Theories.

Just OMG, there are SOOOOO may plot holes in the story and eding of this game. I bet I can list over 50 right now if I take the time. BUT WAIT, ops can't say sh*t about it... its the Quantum PhysicistZ. Anything can happen DERP.

The hole story based on one of our most far fetched theories.. f*cking awesome. There are so many unanswered questions. plot holes and things that just don't makes sence and ofcurse it all excused with all mighty plot hole of plot holes Quantum theories or whatever.

Liked the game but man is the story bullsh*t.Totall cop out imo.

Bioshock 1 is so much better wen it comes to a twist and story/ They wnet WAAAAY too overboard with this.

Bioshcok "INFITE" wink. NO. F*ck that.

So what did you think of it?

beganoo

Mmmmmm? Nah. Disgaree. Still loved it. Amazing ending. Seems like a statement made for shock value and attention to the thread. Even if it's not "air tight"....it was pretty spectacular. No two ways about it.

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beganoo

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#481 beganoo
Member since 2009 • 1642 Posts

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

Lol this topic again.

 

My opionon hasn't really chancged but there is one thing I found out.Best part of the game by far for me but its waaaaaay too subtle and imo it should have been more fleshed out and the main twist of the game, not all the multiverse horseshit. Its is pretty genious.As much as I think ken levine is being overrated for infinite I have to give him huge props for this.Its quite the the mind fu*k.

 

Anyway apparently the songbird (SPOLIERS) dying scream from the end of infinite is in the orignal bioshock 1 that was made qutie a few  years before ofcourse.

It happens wen you are in the  theater and there is a guy tied up to a chair next to a piaon. Just before he expoldes you can hear (very quality) the song bird death scream. Now that great.

 

Funnily enough the best part of bioshock infinite for me is actually in bioshcok 1 (the superior game). Huh how things work out.

Vaasman

That isn't even real, it's just a similar sounding ambient effect. Even I wanted it to be true, but in the scene where he dies, songbird doesn't scream, he isn't inside, and it doesn't sound the same as his normal cries.

Let the thread die it's well deserved death already.

 

Doesn't mean the sound can't travel  through some air vents or whatever and reach the bioshcok 1 chcharacter.Sound travels through water quite fine.It hits some sort of opening in rapture like an oxigin fitration pipe or something and the vibrations travel to you. It was pretty a loud noise wen songbird died.

 

Also I did listen to the the 2 screams head to head a while back and they did sond quite identical.There a good chance it could have been intended.

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Vaasman

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#482 Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 15874 Posts

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

Lol this topic again.

 

My opionon hasn't really chancged but there is one thing I found out.Best part of the game by far for me but its waaaaaay too subtle and imo it should have been more fleshed out and the main twist of the game, not all the multiverse horseshit. Its is pretty genious.As much as I think ken levine is being overrated for infinite I have to give him huge props for this.Its quite the the mind fu*k.

 

Anyway apparently the songbird (SPOLIERS) dying scream from the end of infinite is in the orignal bioshock 1 that was made qutie a few  years before ofcourse.

It happens wen you are in the  theater and there is a guy tied up to a chair next to a piaon. Just before he expoldes you can hear (very quality) the song bird death scream. Now that great.

 

Funnily enough the best part of bioshock infinite for me is actually in bioshcok 1 (the superior game). Huh how things work out.

beganoo

That isn't even real, it's just a similar sounding ambient effect. Even I wanted it to be true, but in the scene where he dies, songbird doesn't scream, he isn't inside, and it doesn't sound the same as his normal cries.

Let the thread die it's well deserved death already.

 

Doesn't mean the sound can't travel  through some air vents or whatever and reach the bioshcok 1 chcharacter.Sound travels through water quite fine.It hits some sort of opening in rapture like an oxigin fitration pipe or something and the vibrations travel to you. It was pretty a loud noise wen songbird died.

 

Also I did listen to the the 2 screams head to head a while back and they did sond quite identical.There a good chance it could have been intended.

So when you fill in the gaps and make assumptions on what you like, it's ok, but when other people do it on what you don't like, they're just so stupid! :roll:

Also, it doesn't sound the same. In his death scene, his screeching is muffled and quite different from his normal cries. 

At the very best, you're looking at them splicing the previously used ambient sound with other files to come up with songbird's cry. The normal one from Columbia.

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the_bi99man

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#483 the_bi99man
Member since 2004 • 11465 Posts

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

Lol this topic again.

 

My opionon hasn't really chancged but there is one thing I found out.Best part of the game by far for me but its waaaaaay too subtle and imo it should have been more fleshed out and the main twist of the game, not all the multiverse horseshit. Its is pretty genious.As much as I think ken levine is being overrated for infinite I have to give him huge props for this.Its quite the the mind fu*k.

 

Anyway apparently the songbird (SPOLIERS) dying scream from the end of infinite is in the orignal bioshock 1 that was made qutie a few  years before ofcourse.

It happens wen you are in the  theater and there is a guy tied up to a chair next to a piaon. Just before he expoldes you can hear (very quality) the song bird death scream. Now that great.

 

Funnily enough the best part of bioshock infinite for me is actually in bioshcok 1 (the superior game). Huh how things work out.

beganoo

That isn't even real, it's just a similar sounding ambient effect. Even I wanted it to be true, but in the scene where he dies, songbird doesn't scream, he isn't inside, and it doesn't sound the same as his normal cries.

Let the thread die it's well deserved death already.

 

Doesn't mean the sound can't travel  through some air vents or whatever and reach the bioshcok 1 chcharacter.Sound travels through water quite fine.It hits some sort of opening in rapture like an oxigin fitration pipe or something and the vibrations travel to you. It was pretty a loud noise wen songbird died.

 

Also I did listen to the the 2 screams head to head a while back and they did sond quite identical.There a good chance it could have been intended.

That exact same sound is used as an ambient noise in Bioshock 1 and 2, and occurs literally dozens, if not hundreds of times, throughout both games.

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beganoo

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#484 beganoo
Member since 2009 • 1642 Posts

[QUOTE="beganoo"]

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]That isn't even real, it's just a similar sounding ambient effect. Even I wanted it to be true, but in the scene where he dies, songbird doesn't scream, he isn't inside, and it doesn't sound the same as his normal cries.

Let the thread die it's well deserved death already.

Vaasman

 

Doesn't mean the sound can't travel  through some air vents or whatever and reach the bioshcok 1 chcharacter.Sound travels through water quite fine.It hits some sort of opening in rapture like an oxigin fitration pipe or something and the vibrations travel to you. It was pretty a loud noise wen songbird died.

 

Also I did listen to the the 2 screams head to head a while back and they did sond quite identical.There a good chance it could have been intended.

So when you fill in the gaps and make assumptions on what you like, it's ok, but when other people do it on what you don't like, they're just so stupid! :roll:

Also, it doesn't sound the same. In his death scene, his screeching is muffled and quite different from his normal cries. 

At the very best, you're looking at them splicing the previously used ambient sound with other files to come up with songbird's cry. The normal one from Columbia.

 

I really don't care. Both ways work for me. If its for real its quite genious and I can't deny that and if its not my opinion of infite stands unchaged.

Yeah, now that I think about it it would have been too cool for a such a meh game.I guess you'r right.

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Bigboi500

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#485 Bigboi500
Member since 2007 • 35550 Posts

What's an "edning" ?

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beganoo

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#486 beganoo
Member since 2009 • 1642 Posts

What's an "edning" ?

Bigboi500

 

I'd edit it and fix it but then your post would not matter anymore. You know, the same way everything you did in the game didn't matter because in the end it "never really happend."

 

<3

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Bigboi500

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#487 Bigboi500
Member since 2007 • 35550 Posts

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

What's an "edning" ?

beganoo

 

I'd edit it and fix it but then your post would not matter anymore. You know, the same way everything you did in the game didn't matter because in the end it "never really happend."

 

<3

I still haven't gotten around to playing it yet. :P

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Mazoch

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#488 Mazoch
Member since 2004 • 2473 Posts

Guess I'll bite... Yeah it's kinda long, feel  free to read or TL:DR :P

I really like the ending and the overall story in the game. Part of what I really enjoy about the story and the ending is that it's open to alternate interpretations. The conclusion to the story can be seen and interpreted in quite a few different ways. That someone is unclear or left partially unexplained does not make it a plot hole. This is something often seen in books or movies but not really something that's been explored a lot in games. There are some examples (Journey is one that springs to mind), but it's the first time I've seen it in a really high budget large scale game.

Some general observations:

A general theme of the game is religion. I think a way to look at both the story in general and the ending in particular is to look at it through a religious lens rather than a scientific point of view.

Consider that in Christian tradition, baptism is a spiritual rebirth. This is also brought up in game where Comstock talks about baptism, claiming that the person going into the water is not the same person that comes out. Other religious themes are the idea of rebirth, forgiveness from past sins and redemption. All themes are a very relevant to Bookers character, all themes he struggles with or longs for in some form. 

During the ending, I don't think booker is killed by Elizabeth in a physical sense, he is pushed under the water and he passes out, just like he did when he was baptized when first entering Columbia. At the end Booker wants to kill all the different Comcast's, Elizabeth at this point really steps into her role as a 'prophet or Jesus figure. Instead of bookers idea of killing, she gives booker a rebirth, she frees him for the past and the sins, the chains and the dilemmas that comes with them. At the very end, after the credits, Booker wakes up again in his room with a baby crying in the next room. This to me insinuates that 1) He was not killed by Elizabeth 2) That he has been given a second chance, he can right the wrong by never giving away his child. 3) It raises the question if he'll actually be able to take advantage of this second chance or if it's all really in vain, perhaps he'll fail again. That's something left up to the players to ponder. That, in my mind, is the true ending: For all his travels, in the end his reward is a chance at redemption and a second chance to do right by his child.

Another religious aspect is that of Elizabeth. She is a pretty obvious allegory for Jesus. She is prophesized to be a religious leader, she has miracles powers, she's very good, kind and innocent and in the end, it's the very religious that wants to put her on a pedestal that also seeks to corrupt her and hurt her until she becomes a twisted instrument for war and death. 

The religious angle goes a lot further, the game contains a very strong indictment of religion. Both the obvious with Comstock as a clearly religious and evil figure, but also the Luteces who can be seen as abusing other people's faith. For example, when Comstock talks about seeing an angle after Wounded Knee who tells him that he will build Columbia, I believe that is Lutece doing the talking. She tells him that he will build Columbia, she knows that he will because she's also the one who invents it and makes it happen. She's the one who makes him a cult leader by 'giving him' prophetic powers. Her ability to look into the future through, allows her to create the illusion of miraculous powers in the eyes of the population. When Comcast needs an hair and a prophet, she's the one who makes it happen by pulling the baby from another time and place.

Another  facet is the nature of selfish choices as opposed to acting for the common good. The Lutece 'twins' represent this. It's implied (as least I see it as such) that the two Lutece are not twins, but rather  the same person from two different worlds. For the sister, 'he' is the perfect companion. For the lone, misunderstood genius with no one who understands her and few who accepts the idea of a woman as a superior intellect, the twin represents someone who understand, someone who doesn't judge, someone who shares her ideas. However by pulling him into her world she might well be the cause of the whole mess. She creates Comcast, Columbia and the machines to realize her dream and in the end the consequence of her getting her perfect twin is that the world will ultimately burn. There's a couple of Vox's that explains that the twins are in disagreement of what they should do. That one of the would rather let the world burn then give up the twin, whereas the other is wanting to part ways in order to resolve the problem they've created.

Other areas that you could look at is the way the game looks at american exceptionalism, the relationship between oppressor and the oppressed. 

The bottom line? The game is often vague and unclear, but it also leaves a lot of room for interpretation, discussion, thought and debate. That, in my opinion, is what makes Infinites story pretty awesome. 

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#489 Peredith
Member since 2011 • 2289 Posts

Part of what I really enjoy about the story and the ending is that it's open to alternate interpretations.

Mazoch

Eh, not really, it's a pretty simple story. Plotholes and sloppy writing shouldn't be considered open for interperation.

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Mazoch

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#490 Mazoch
Member since 2004 • 2473 Posts

[QUOTE="Mazoch"]

Part of what I really enjoy about the story and the ending is that it's open to alternate interpretations.

Peredith

Eh, not really, it's a pretty simple story. Plotholes and sloppy writing shouldn't be considered open for interperation.

I disagree :)
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#491 Peredith
Member since 2011 • 2289 Posts

[QUOTE="Peredith"]

[QUOTE="Mazoch"]

Part of what I really enjoy about the story and the ending is that it's open to alternate interpretations.

Mazoch

Eh, not really, it's a pretty simple story. Plotholes and sloppy writing shouldn't be considered open for interperation.

I disagree :)

What's there to discuss?

  • Booker feels guilty for his actions during Wounded Knee
  • Booker accept baptism > becomes Comstock > becomes sterile > needs heir
  • Booker denies baptism > stays as Booker > has child > Comstock needs heir > buys Bookers child
  • Lutece feels guilty > Bring Booker to Columbia to save Elizabeth > Booker saves Elizabeth > Elizabeth uses magic to kill original Booker who accepts baptism > Erases Comstock timeline

That's the story. :?

The only thing to discuss is the sloppy writing, which is what seems to be confusing most people.

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beganoo

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#492 beganoo
Member since 2009 • 1642 Posts

[QUOTE="Mazoch"][QUOTE="Peredith"]

Eh, not really, it's a pretty simple story. Plotholes and sloppy writing shouldn't be considered open for interperation.

Peredith

I disagree :)

What's there to discuss?

  • Booker feels guilty for his actions during Wounded Knee
  • Booker accept baptism > becomes Comstock > becomes sterile > needs heir
  • Booker denies baptism > stays as Booker > has child > Comstock needs heir > buys Bookers child
  • Lutece feels guilty > Bring Booker to Columbia to save Elizabeth > Booker saves Elizabeth > Elizabeth uses magic to kill original Booker who accepts baptism > Erases Comstock timeline

That's the story. :?

The only thing to discuss is the sloppy writing, which is what seems to be confusing most people.

 

I love how its obvious that if they deleted the comstock universes they could have not deleted the comstock universes becase the deleting happend thanks and because of the events in comstock universes and the fanboys started to come up with moronic shit like "oh no guys, they kept one comstock universe on the side just for that reason, its not a polt hole... not at all"."They kept one on the side"?! f*cking really ?? Just hilarious.

 

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Mazoch

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#493 Mazoch
Member since 2004 • 2473 Posts

[QUOTE="Mazoch"][QUOTE="Peredith"]

Eh, not really, it's a pretty simple story. Plotholes and sloppy writing shouldn't be considered open for interperation.

Peredith

I disagree :)

What's there to discuss?

  • Booker feels guilty for his actions during Wounded Knee
  • Booker accept baptism > becomes Comstock > becomes sterile > needs heir
  • Booker denies baptism > stays as Booker > has child > Comstock needs heir > buys Bookers child
  • Lutece feels guilty > Bring Booker to Columbia to save Elizabeth > Booker saves Elizabeth > Elizabeth uses magic to kill original Booker who accepts baptism > Erases Comstock timeline

That's the story. :?

The only thing to discuss is the sloppy writing, which is what seems to be confusing most people.

There's plenty of assumptions and flaws on your part in that summary. 

Off hand, it ignores the role of Lutece in setting up everything.

Lutece creates Colombia, creates the machines that makes Comstock sterile, gives Comstock his prophetic ability, she gets the child, The two Lutece are in disagreement about their actions or cost and consequences of their 'experiments'.

It's far from clear that Booker dies since we  see him alive after his supposed death.

In addition, you're completely ignoring other aspects that are integral to the game (for example nationalism, religion, slavery, oppression and rebellion). 

 

Basically you're claiming that it's a simple story but you're quick to ignore the elements that might present an alternate interpretation. Just because you're ignoring or missing parts of the story does not mean that it's full of potholes, it just means that you missed or ignored parts of the story. Just because you have one interpretation of what happened at the end of the game and what it's supposed to mean, it doesn't mean that other interpretations are any less valid than your own. But if Infinites story is simple, what would you consider to be an example of a complex story?

 

You can boil pretty much all stories down like that, and call thm simple.

Hamlet:

King kills old king and marries queen

Hamlet gets PO'ed, pretends go go nuts

Ophelia gets sad, kills herself, Hamlets get sad

Hamlet kills king, the end.

And yet it's considered one of the finest pieces of literature ever written.

 

New Testament? 

God has son > Son says he's the son of god

Son of god and twelve dudes go on a road trip > People are gits so they kill son of god

People owe god big time for killing his son so you should do what god says

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#494 musalala
Member since 2008 • 3131 Posts

[QUOTE="Peredith"]

[QUOTE="Mazoch"] I disagree :)Mazoch

What's there to discuss?

  • Booker feels guilty for his actions during Wounded Knee
  • Booker accept baptism > becomes Comstock > becomes sterile > needs heir
  • Booker denies baptism > stays as Booker > has child > Comstock needs heir > buys Bookers child
  • Lutece feels guilty > Bring Booker to Columbia to save Elizabeth > Booker saves Elizabeth > Elizabeth uses magic to kill original Booker who accepts baptism > Erases Comstock timeline

That's the story. :?

The only thing to discuss is the sloppy writing, which is what seems to be confusing most people.

There's plenty of assumptions and flaws on your part in that summary. 

Off hand, it ignores the role of Lutece in setting up everything.

Lutece creates Colombia, creates the machines that makes Comstock sterile, gives Comstock his prophetic ability, she gets the child, The two Lutece are in disagreement about their actions or cost and consequences of their 'experiments'.

It's far from clear that Booker dies since we  see him alive after his supposed death.

In addition, you're completely ignoring other aspects that are integral to the game (for example nationalism, religion, slavery, oppression and rebellion). 

 

Basically you're claiming that it's a simple story but you're quick to ignore the elements that might present an alternate interpretation. Just because you're ignoring or missing parts of the story does not mean that it's full of potholes, it just means that you missed or ignored parts of the story. Just because you have one interpretation of what happened at the end of the game and what it's supposed to mean, it doesn't mean that other interpretations are any less valid than your own. But if Infinites story is simple, what would you consider to be an example of a complex story?

 

You can boil pretty much all stories down like that, and call thm simple.

Hamlet:

King kills old king and marries queen

Hamlet gets PO'ed, pretends go go nuts

Ophelia gets sad, kills herself, Hamlets get sad

Hamlet kills king, the end.

And yet it's considered one of the finest pieces of literature ever written.

 

New Testament? 

God has son > Son says he's the son of god

Son of god and twelve dudes go on a road trip > People are gits so they kill son of god

People owe god big time for killing his son so you should do what god says

Completely off topic, I once wrote an assignment where I argued Hamlet and his best freind Horatio were gay lovers, It was complete batsh*t crazy but I scored an A+. My Lit teachers  exact words were, "You know this is complete nonsense but I cannot argue with you logic or you presentation of your arguements" :D

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ConanTheStoner

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#495 ConanTheStoner
Member since 2011 • 23833 Posts

Hamlet:

King kills old king and marries queen

Hamlet gets PO'ed, pretends go go nuts

Ophelia gets sad, kills herself, Hamlets get sad

Hamlet kills king, the end.

And yet it's considered one of the finest pieces of literature ever written.

 

New Testament? 

God has son > Son says he's the son of god

Son of god and twelve dudes go on a road trip > People are gits so they kill son of god

People owe god big time for killing his son so you should do what god says

Mazoch

F*ck dude, thanks for the spoilers.  :roll:

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skrat_01

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#496 skrat_01
Member since 2007 • 33767 Posts

You can boil pretty much all stories down like that, and call thm simple.

Hamlet:

King kills old king and marries queen

Hamlet gets PO'ed, pretends go go nuts

Ophelia gets sad, kills herself, Hamlets get sad

Hamlet kills king, the end.

And yet it's considered one of the finest pieces of literature ever written.

Mazoch

With good reason, Hamlet is a a very well told story and piece of theatre that's very clear in communicating it's message; Bioshock Infinite sure as hell isn't. It's cluttered, it's not half as character driven - and honestly it's conceptually entirely different.

That's a woefully dumb and reductive comparison, seriously.

Infinite is good, for what it is, but trying to wave your arms about and make silly statements makes you look well, a bit nuts.

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texasgoldrush

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#497 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15245 Posts

[QUOTE="Mazoch"][QUOTE="Peredith"]

Eh, not really, it's a pretty simple story. Plotholes and sloppy writing shouldn't be considered open for interperation.

Peredith

I disagree :)

What's there to discuss?

  • Booker feels guilty for his actions during Wounded Knee
  • Booker accept baptism > becomes Comstock > becomes sterile > needs heir
  • Booker denies baptism > stays as Booker > has child > Comstock needs heir > buys Bookers child
  • Lutece feels guilty > Bring Booker to Columbia to save Elizabeth > Booker saves Elizabeth > Elizabeth uses magic to kill original Booker who accepts baptism > Erases Comstock timeline

That's the story. :?

The only thing to discuss is the sloppy writing, which is what seems to be confusing most people.

Take a look at this.....this simply put, expresses all the flaws of Infinite's storytelling. Its arbitrary as hell. http://inanage.com/2013/04/04/my-issues-with-the-bioshock-infinite-plot/ The writer simply makes claims that is unnatural for the fiction he is portraying, and constants and variables is his cop out.
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texasgoldrush

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#498 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15245 Posts

[QUOTE="Mazoch"]

Part of what I really enjoy about the story and the ending is that it's open to alternate interpretations.

Peredith

Eh, not really, it's a pretty simple story. Plotholes and sloppy writing shouldn't be considered open for interperation.

One voxophone opens up such a plothole...its called "Drawing Dead".
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skrat_01

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#499 skrat_01
Member since 2007 • 33767 Posts

Mazoch
There's a lot I could dispute, but the game isn't an 'incidemment of religion'; it's squarely targeting fanaticism two contexts (religious - racist / extremist, and revolutionary - extremism). Futhermore it goes so far to claim 'hey they're just as bad as one and other'; Booker's quip in the lift and everything after it, which is is well - phenomenally stupid, and this utterly falls apart in how hard they try and paint Daisy Fitzroy as a power mad villian - to the down right stupid exploitative 'gun to the child's head scene'. The writing and everything established and contextualised the world had utterly fallen apart at the hands of some bad writing and direction, and I'm willing to bet that the entire middle section of the game was re-written numerous (probably too many) times. And yeah, the game was in development hell for a period of time, so it's no surprise this happens throughout the game. Anyway I'll say this; Infinite points out a lot of interesting subjects but postures that it's about something greater then what it is. The reality is the game carries some huge flaws and in terms of its actual investigation of very real themes, it brushes over them entirely - what the plot is in service of is Elizabeth's character drama, the science ficiton and combat. I wouldn't start over interpreting it (not to say you shouldn't be interpreting it of course, that's not a bad thing!) - but some of it is verging on Bioshock 1 sill over interpretation, and well, there was so much dumb stuff said about that game claiming it was something that it isn't.
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Peredith

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#500 Peredith
Member since 2011 • 2289 Posts

[QUOTE="Peredith"]

[QUOTE="Mazoch"] I disagree :)Mazoch

What's there to discuss?

  • Booker feels guilty for his actions during Wounded Knee
  • Booker accept baptism > becomes Comstock > becomes sterile > needs heir
  • Booker denies baptism > stays as Booker > has child > Comstock needs heir > buys Bookers child
  • Lutece feels guilty > Bring Booker to Columbia to save Elizabeth > Booker saves Elizabeth > Elizabeth uses magic to kill original Booker who accepts baptism > Erases Comstock timeline

That's the story. :?

The only thing to discuss is the sloppy writing, which is what seems to be confusing most people.

There's plenty of assumptions and flaws on your part in that summary. 

Off hand, it ignores the role of Lutece in setting up everything.

Lutece creates Colombia, creates the machines that makes Comstock sterile, gives Comstock his prophetic ability, she gets the child, The two Lutece are in disagreement about their actions or cost and consequences of their 'experiments'.

It's far from clear that Booker dies since we  see him alive after his supposed death.

In addition, you're completely ignoring other aspects that are integral to the game (for example nationalism, religion, slavery, oppression and rebellion). 

 

Basically you're claiming that it's a simple story but you're quick to ignore the elements that might present an alternate interpretation. Just because you're ignoring or missing parts of the story does not mean that it's full of potholes, it just means that you missed or ignored parts of the story. Just because you have one interpretation of what happened at the end of the game and what it's supposed to mean, it doesn't mean that other interpretations are any less valid than your own. But if Infinites story is simple, what would you consider to be an example of a complex story?

 

You can boil pretty much all stories down like that, and call thm simple.

Hamlet:

King kills old king and marries queen

Hamlet gets PO'ed, pretends go go nuts

Ophelia gets sad, kills herself, Hamlets get sad

Hamlet kills king, the end.

And yet it's considered one of the finest pieces of literature ever written.

 

New Testament? 

God has son > Son says he's the son of god

Son of god and twelve dudes go on a road trip > People are gits so they kill son of god

People owe god big time for killing his son so you should do what god says

Unlike Hamlet or The New Testament, Bioshock Infinite has barely any lore or charactersation.