BioWare needs to step it up

New Vegas raises the bar for modern role-playing games.

Its faction system is the best I've ever seen in a game, bar none. Its quest design is excellent, with many seemingly minor side-quests connecting with one another in delicious and unexpected ways. Choice and consequence and meaningful skill-checks abound.

When you walk into a town in New Vegas, you aren't Commander Shepard™, Official BioWare Character, you're whoever the hell you want to be, basically. The amount of options New Vegas offers is a nearly shocking reminder of exactly what role playing games can be when you remove the ****ing training wheels.

In Mass Effect when I'm on Citadel or any other "friendly zone", my guns suddenly and magically lose their ability to kill things; this is because Commander Shepard is innately more BioWare's character than he is mine. BioWare has a story to tell, and they don't want such unscrupulous intrusions as "player freedom" entering into their three-part epic.

My question is this:

In the wake of New Vegas, which, as a role playing game, absolutely obliterates anything BioWare has ever made, will BioWare continue to produce relatively shallow "fork in the road" type games, or will they take a ****ing hint and give the player some real freedom, and a character system more involving than "this gun or that gun"?

They have quite some work cut out for themselves, having been one-upped by a relatively minor studio that only a few years ago was catching the crumbs from off their table cloth.

Reversals of fortune, honeychile. That's the very essence of Vegas.

Edit: removing trolling comments

-Teuf

Edit: Thanks for being a gentleman about it.

- jethro

My question is this:

will BioWare continue to produce relatively shallow "fork in the road" type games

jethrovegas

Although Neverwinter Nights doesn't even have that much going for it.

Well, I asked for New Vegas for christmas and can't wait but Mass Effect 1 didn't hold a candle to fallout 3 so sadly i'd have to disagree. Its not just the character development that makes a game is a combination of things. But regardless, Fallout games and pretty much every game Bethesda makes is amazing. But at the end of the day it doesn't really stand up to the Mass Effect series. Particularly because they are much different, not even comparable to me.

I like how in Mass Effect 2, my friends don't spawn inside rocks and then proceeds to freeze the game.tagyhag

I'm not going to compare the Bioware franchises to the Fallouts but I do agree that they need to step up their game.

More rpg in your rpgs thank you very much. Even your spiritual sucessor to BG is going the way of the action rpg. The spiritual sucessor to Baldurs Gate!!

If you're going to make choices a big deal, make them matter more.

Stop shafting the PC platoform. ME2 was a bad port and you're giving DA2 the same treatment. Where were the graphics options? considering how the controls where more or less carried directly over from the consoles, where was the damn gamepad support? ME2 did'nt even have scroll-wheel support, wtf?

Especially the controls reminded me of how Bioshock 2 had no gamepad support "because they had made a PC optimized control scheme" which just so happened to be ass backwards.

I've never played a Bioware game where my newly awesome, created character, falls through the floor of the opening area and has a seizure, making his arms and legs shake around continuously until i loaded a previous save. Nor have i had a level cap at 20 ( in a freakin RPG) in which they had me purchase a DLC to raise the level cap. Bioware has always had my back in their games, and i got theirs. Bioware cant step up because theirs nothing above them except their selves. Kokuro_Kun

I heard Scotty LaDouche has been talking crap on Bioware in the school yard. YOU GOT THERE BACK NOW?

[QUOTE="Kokuro_Kun"]I've never played a Bioware game where my newly awesome, created character, falls through the floor of the opening area and has a seizure, making his arms and legs shake around continuously until i loaded a previous save. Nor have i had a level cap at 20 ( in a freakin RPG) in which they had me purchase a DLC to raise the level cap. Bioware has always had my back in their games, and i got theirs. Bioware cant step up because theirs nothing above them except their selves. Elementguy13

I heard Scotty LaDouche has been talking crap on Bioware in the school yard. YOU GOT THERE BACK NOW?

I like how in Mass Effect 2, my friends don't spawn inside rocks and then proceeds to freeze the game.tagyhag

I've never played a Bioware game where my newly awesome, created character, falls through the floor of the opening area and has a seizure, making his arms and legs shake around continuously until i loaded a previous save. Nor have i had a level cap at 20 ( in a freakin RPG) in which they had me purchase a DLC to raise the level cap.

Bioware has always had my back in their games, and i got theirs. Bioware cant step up because theirs nothing above them except their selves. Kokuro_Kun

So you choose to ignore the content of either game in favor of technical discussions?

That's understandable; you couldn't possibly defend Mass Effect or Dragon Age's quests or character systems in comparison to New Vegas, so it's best to focus on things that they actually do better, like textures, and, umm, meshes, and stuff. :lol:

I definitely want to get New Vegas when I get my new rig together.

[QUOTE="tagyhag"]I like how in Mass Effect 2, my friends don't spawn inside rocks and then proceeds to freeze the game.jethrovegas

I've never played a Bioware game where my newly awesome, created character, falls through the floor of the opening area and has a seizure, making his arms and legs shake around continuously until i loaded a previous save. Nor have i had a level cap at 20 ( in a freakin RPG) in which they had me purchase a DLC to raise the level cap.

Bioware has always had my back in their games, and i got theirs. Bioware cant step up because theirs nothing above them except their selves. Kokuro_Kun

So you choose to ignore the content of either game in favor of technical discussions?

That's understandable; you couldn't possibly defend Mass Effect or Dragon Age's quests or character systems in comparison to New Vegas, so it's best to focus on things that they actually do better, like textures, and, umm, meshes, and stuff. :lol:

When I play a game, I don't just look at the favorable stuff, I look at the whole picture. :)

Won't comment on Vegas but will agree, Bioware seriously needs to produce the Mass Effect 3 I know they are capable of since IMO, ME2 though awesome was a bit disappointing to me as visiting other celestial bodies and exploration of the surface was gone as was much of the story progression effectively sending me on fetch quest to track down members of my team that should have been by my side from the beginning. :?

That said, I remain a huge believer in Bioware though ME3 really needs to deliver or that may change. :P

Nor have i had a level cap at 20 ( in a freakin RPG) in which they had me purchase a DLC to raise the level cap.Kokuro_Kun

Dragon Age. ;)

When I play a game, I don't just look at the favorable stuff, I look at the whole picture. :)

tagyhag

So you'd agree that Mass Effect/Dragon Age's overall quest design, choice and consequence, and character systems are unfavorable in comparison to New Vegas, right?

Given that you look at the whole picture, and not just the shiny parts.

I think what you are saying is you enjoy more open-ended kinds of WRPGs? You cant bash bioware from making a DIFFERENT kind of RPG than what you like. Bioware are great devs, with more clout/talent/credibility than all of Obsidian and Bethesda. They are known for great stories, fleshed out worlds, and great gameplay to tie it all together. Simply because you prefer more freedom to roam and explore doesnt mean that BIoware is being left behind. Maybe your tastes are different. navyguy21

It isn't about open worlds or free roaming; it's about role playing, character system, quest design and choice and consequence. New Vegas absolutely destroys Mass Effect/Dragon Age in each of these areas.

[QUOTE="tagyhag"]

When I play a game, I don't just look at the favorable stuff, I look at the whole picture. :)

jethrovegas

So you'd agree that Mass Effect/Dragon Age's overall quest design, choice and consequence, and character systems are unfavorable in comparison to New Vegas, right?

Given that you look at the whole picture, and not just the shiny parts.

[QUOTE="navyguy21"]I think what you are saying is you enjoy more open-ended kinds of WRPGs? You cant bash bioware from making a DIFFERENT kind of RPG than what you like. Bioware are great devs, with more clout/talent/credibility than all of Obsidian and Bethesda. They are known for great stories, fleshed out worlds, and great gameplay to tie it all together. Simply because you prefer more freedom to roam and explore doesnt mean that BIoware is being left behind. Maybe your tastes are different. jethrovegas

It isn't about open worlds or free roaming; it's about role playing, character system, quest design and choice and consequence. New Vegas absolutely destroys Mass Effect/Dragon Age in each of these areas.

only problem with Bioware games i have is that they alll have the same type of plot.

1. for their space ones so far you start off in a place getting destroyed...

2.embark on quest...

3.epic plot twist 3/4 in the game...

3.5---in here their is ussaully some stype of relationship.(e.g U and Carth in kotor or bastilla,mass effect do i really need to say,dragonage either a few men a girl or bisexual red haired)

4.make one final run to say the galaxy/world

5.Ending that makes you ask more question

oh and you always recruit some new friends on the way like in kotor , mass effect 1 and 2 ,dragon age and more

...still love their games

[QUOTE="jethrovegas"]

[QUOTE="tagyhag"]

When I play a game, I don't just look at the favorable stuff, I look at the whole picture. :)

tagyhag

So you'd agree that Mass Effect/Dragon Age's overall quest design, choice and consequence, and character systems are unfavorable in comparison to New Vegas, right?

Given that you look at the whole picture, and not just the shiny parts.

[QUOTE="jethrovegas"]

[QUOTE="tagyhag"]

When I play a game, I don't just look at the favorable stuff, I look at the whole picture. :)

tagyhag

So you'd agree that Mass Effect/Dragon Age's overall quest design, choice and consequence, and character systems are unfavorable in comparison to New Vegas, right?

Given that you look at the whole picture, and not just the shiny parts.

So, would you say that the things you listed are as important as the things I listed when it comes to role playing games?

I mean, don't get me wrong man, I like pretty art as much as the next guy, but when it comes down to it what I really care about is the stuff I can play, you know, the stuff that would still be there if the graphics were extremely basic, so art design doesn't make or break it for me, and NV's art design is basically perfect for what they were going for. I don't see how ME beats it in this department, they were going for different looks.

Furthermore, yes, polish is important, but again, I'll take a game as deep as New Vegas with some polish issues over something like Mass Effect anyday, because ME might be very polished (the second one, anyway) but it's also very shallow, and I'm not going to come back to it nearly as often, simply because it doesn't offer as much.

Also, New Vegas has some pretty good characters. I don't know that they compare to BioWare's Super Characters™, what with their incredible textures and professionally written back stories, but there isn't a huge gap in quality like the one between ME and NV in those areas which I previously detailed.

So, would you say that the things you listed are as important as the things I listed when it comes to role playing games?

I mean, don't get me wrong man, I like pretty art as much as the next guy, but when it comes down to it what I really care about is the stuff I can play, you know, the stuff that would still be there if the graphics were extremely basic, so art design doesn't make or break it for me, and NV's art design is basically perfect for what they were going for. I don't see how ME beats it in this department, they were going for different looks.

Furthermore, yes, polish is important, but again, I'll take a game as deep as New Vegas with some polish issues over something like Mass Effect anyday, because ME might be very polished (the second one, anyway) but it's also very shallow, and I'm not going to come back to it nearly as often, simply because it doesn't offer as much.

Also, New Vegas has some pretty good characters. I don't know that they compare to BioWare's Super Characters™, what with their incredible textures and professionally written back stories, but there isn't a huge gap in quality like the one between ME and NV in those areas which I previously detailed.

jethrovegas

I like ME2 for what it is simply because it's in the casual side of the RPG spectrum.

If I wanted to play a deep RPG, I wouldn't play New Vegas (that's in the middle of the spectrum, neither casual or hardcore) , I'd play something like Wizardry or Bloodlines. New Vegas is good for what it is, but since it's not as niche as I would like it to be for a "Hardcore" RPG, it doesn't get much playtime.

In look maybe, but certainly not in personality, dialogue, motivations etcdommeus

I still have yet to meet someone with as much depth as Thane (And he wasn't even that deep) in New Vegas. :)

[QUOTE="Kokuro_Kun"]Nor have i had a level cap at 20 ( in a freakin RPG) in which they had me purchase a DLC to raise the level cap.Stevo_the_gamer

Dragon Age. ;)

Oh, and the level cap wasn't raised in a DLC. It was raised in the expansion.

Guppy507

Then you never played KOTOR...The level cap was 22. [...]dommeus

It's too bad that I couldn't stand the FPS gameplay and hours spent on walking around in uninteresting copy n paste areas. I bet I would have liked Fallout New Vegas if they changed a few things.

I like ME2 for what it is simply because it's in the casual side of the RPG spectrum.

If I wanted to play a deep RPG, I wouldn't play New Vegas (that's in the middle of the spectrum, neither casual or hardcore) , I'd play something like Wizardry or Bloodlines. New Vegas is good for what it is, but since it's not as niche as I would like it to be for a "Hardcore" RPG, it doesn't get much playtime.

tagyhag

For the record, I think New Vegas is easily one of the deepest RPGs ever made.

I'm not sure most people are grasping the enormity of the distinction between this game and Fallout 3. FO3 was a decent game, if you like exploration and looting; NV is the best RPG since Arcanum.

Forget Bloodlines, man; play this **** right now.

For the record, I think New Vegas is easily one of the deepest RPGs ever made.

jethrovegas

Woah bro, for this year maybe but there are rougelikes out there.

[QUOTE="tagyhag"]

I like ME2 for what it is simply because it's in the casual side of the RPG spectrum.

If I wanted to play a deep RPG, I wouldn't play New Vegas (that's in the middle of the spectrum, neither casual or hardcore) , I'd play something like Wizardry or Bloodlines. New Vegas is good for what it is, but since it's not as niche as I would like it to be for a "Hardcore" RPG, it doesn't get much playtime.

jethrovegas

For the record, I think New Vegas is easily one of the deepest RPGs ever made.

I'm not sure most people are grasping the enormity of the distinction between this game and Fallout 3. FO3 was a decent game, if you like exploration and looting; NV is the best RPG since Arcanum.

Forget Bloodlines, man; play this **** right now.

[QUOTE="jethrovegas"]

For the record, I think New Vegas is easily one of the deepest RPGs ever made.

Yangire

Woah bro, for this year maybe but there are rougelikes out there.

To clarify, I'm talking specifically about the quest design, choice and consequence, and factions.

On those fronts, my statements are not hyperbole. You need to go back and play it, and try to get over the combat. Trust me man, I'm not one to jump on hype trains; NV is pretty ****ing great.

[QUOTE="Yangire"]

[QUOTE="jethrovegas"]

For the record, I think New Vegas is easily one of the deepest RPGs ever made.

jethrovegas

Woah bro, for this year maybe but there are rougelikes out there.

To clarify, I'm talking specifically about the quest design, choice and consequence, and factions.

On those fronts, my statements are not hyperbole. You need to go back and play it, and try to get over the combat. Trust me man, I'm not one to jump on hype trains; NV is pretty ****ing great.

Ah, but it was a rent, if I decide to buy it I'm going to have to wait till a decent price drop.. My computer could run it, so do you know of any mods that make the game better? Like ones that they had for Oblivion.

[QUOTE="jethrovegas"]

[QUOTE="Yangire"]

Woah bro, for this year maybe but there are rougelikes out there.

Yangire

To clarify, I'm talking specifically about the quest design, choice and consequence, and factions.

On those fronts, my statements are not hyperbole. You need to go back and play it, and try to get over the combat. Trust me man, I'm not one to jump on hype trains; NV is pretty ****ing great.

Ah, but it was a rent, if I decide to buy it I'm going to have to wait till a decent price drop.. My computer could run it, so do you know of any mods that make the game better? Like ones that they had for Oblivion.

When did you try it? It's been patched to perform better.

For reference, a single 460gtx made the game run like ass as soon as there were multiple npcs on screen. That is not the case anymore.

[QUOTE="Yangire"]

[QUOTE="jethrovegas"]

To clarify, I'm talking specifically about the quest design, choice and consequence, and factions.

On those fronts, my statements are not hyperbole. You need to go back and play it, and try to get over the combat. Trust me man, I'm not one to jump on hype trains; NV is pretty ****ing great.

Filthybastrd

Ah, but it was a rent, if I decide to buy it I'm going to have to wait till a decent price drop.. My computer could run it, so do you know of any mods that make the game better? Like ones that they had for Oblivion.

When did you try it? It's been patched to perform better.

For reference, a single 460gtx made the game run like ass as soon as there were multiple npcs on screen. That is not the case anymore.

November 29 is when I played the game.

I had such mixed feelings about New Vegas that I have a hard time taking you seriously man. Hear me out.

I can understand liking the sandbox style of game over something like Mass Effect or Dragon Age, different strokes for different folks right? My issue is that Vegas as a whole is an incredibly broken and unpolished game. Even if you were to toss out all of the technical inconsistencies it still suffers in a large way from mostly forgettable quests and characters. Looking back, the only two quests that I remember fondly are "Lucky Old Sun" and"Come Fly Away".

The characters are a bit better, Veronica was cool I guess. But the millionth time I heard a NCR ranger tell me that "patrolling the wasteland almost makes me wish for a nuclear winter" I was nearly wishing myself.

I guess what I'm getting at is the simple, honest to goodness lack of polish that New Vegas sports. It could have been amazing, I know Fallout 3 was (That would make a more solid argument). In any case I'm glad you enjoyed Vegas so much, despite its flaws it was a solid game.

IMO it's not just bioware that need to step their game up. Most of the RPG devs (every console devs) need to step their game. Get off the striping down your games turning them into (action Actions with very light elements) or just stripping away the character progression for the most part.

In Bioware games there's only good/bad way to do things. The character you create and role-play has no effect on the decisions or how the game can play out. And in New Vegas i purposely made a character with low intelligence. A lot of my responses to NPC were dumb and nonsensical . And an NPC took pity on me because my character was that stupid and joined me so i wouldn't hurt myself. How amazing is that for role-playing? Bioware will never create a living breathing RPG world to explore. There is always a big map with many small locations scattered. And all the NPC's are stationary and lifeless. They just wait there and do nothing. They will never be ambitious enough to create a multi faction system Bioware will never be able to do what Obsidian has done. People are very satsified with mediocrity as you can see with ME2.GeneralShowzer

My complaint about Bioware is that they seem to be changing their design philosophy to accomodate ... morons.

I'm skipping DA2 in protest, none of my gaming friends even consider Bioware anymore, they seem to want to make Gears of War now and not deep RPGs.

I agree, FO:NV is better than anything Bioware has done, RPG-wise.

The other problem, as mentioned, is that people appear to be eating up games like ME2; so Bioware will only become less and less in the coming years.

I'll be fair and say I liked Oblivion, but Bethesda has a nasty habit of leaving a game with too many bugs in it.

Oblivion after the last Official Patch still had > 10,000 bugs remaining. Three Community Mods were written to fix them.

Bethesda never patched the awful bug in Oblivion GotY for the Playstation - if you get vampirism, the game won't let you do the cure quest.

Whereas BioWare puts out a ton of added content plus patches.

I'll be fair and say I liked Oblivion, but Bethesda has a nasty habit of leaving a game with too many bugs in it.

Oblivion after the last Official Patch still had > 10,000 bugs remaining. Three Community Mods were written to fix them.

Bethesda never patched the awful bug in Oblivion GotY for the Playstation - if you get vampirism, the game won't let you do the cure quest.

Whereas BioWare puts out a ton of added content plus patches.

topsemag55

Incidently, Dragon Age in it's current state (patch 1.04) has fixed a lot of things while breaking a new slew of stuff. The game is as of now not stable under Windows 7. you may crash every 10 minutes or every few hours. Before that it was DLC not getting authorized properly (byebye forever Blood Dragon Armor. vanished from inventory).

With DA2 on the horizon, DA:O will forever be left like this with Bioware not even acknowledging the bugs.

That's right, the latest patch is less stable than previous itterations.

So when you say that "BioWare puts out a ton of added content plus patches." it's more like "Bioware puts out a ton of DLC and then moves on".

Is this a joke?

I'm not going to compare the Bioware franchises to the Fallouts but I do agree that they need to step up their game.

More rpg in your rpgs thank you very much. Even your spiritual sucessor to BG is going the way of the action rpg. The spiritual sucessor to Baldurs Gate!!

If you're going to make choices a big deal, make them matter more.

Stop shafting the PC platoform. ME2 was a bad port and you're giving DA2 the same treatment. Where were the graphics options? considering how the controls where more or less carried directly over from the consoles, where was the damn gamepad support? ME2 did'nt even have scroll-wheel support, wtf?

Especially the controls reminded me of how Bioshock 2 had no gamepad support "because they had made a PC optimized control scheme" which just so happened to be ass backwards.

Filthybastrd

Mass Effect 2 is a bad port? Please get out of here. It wasn't even a port from what I understand. And ME2 did have scroll wheel support, but its not like any PC gamer who is decent at shooters would use the petty scroll wheel.

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]

I'll be fair and say I liked Oblivion, but Bethesda has a nasty habit of leaving a game with too many bugs in it.

Oblivion after the last Official Patch still had > 10,000 bugs remaining. Three Community Mods were written to fix them.

Bethesda never patched the awful bug in Oblivion GotY for the Playstation - if you get vampirism, the game won't let you do the cure quest.

Whereas BioWare puts out a ton of added content plus patches.

Filthybastrd

Incidently, Dragon Age in it's current state (patch 1.04) has fixed a lot of things while breaking a new slew of stuff. The game is as of now not stable under Windows 7. you may crash every 10 minutes or every few hours. Before that it was DLC not getting authorized properly (byebye forever Blood Dragon Armor. vanished from inventory).

With DA2 on the horizon, DA:O will forever be left like this with Bioware not even acknowledging the bugs.

That's right, the latest patch is less stable than previous itterations.

So when you say that "BioWare puts out a ton of added content plus patches." it's more like "Bioware puts out a ton of DLC and then moves on".

I played Dragon Age with the latest patch for hours and encountered no such problems....