Blu Ray is not useful for gaming this gen

Its good that its there:

1) lazy devs won't bother saving space on a DVD, speeding up production time (lord knows PS3 titles are hard enough to make )

2) More content, much much more content. Uncharted just let rip on content because it simply could, result: a brilliant game with zero restrictions

hongkingkong

Except the restrictions of linear levels and only being roughly 8 hours long. Heck, even the last Tomb Raider had more content than Uncharted :(.

Still a good game but hardly a showcase for BR.

just because br is 2x doesn't mean its slow. 8x dvd is faster than 52x cdrom. imprezawrx500

2x blu-ray: 72 Mbit/s
12x DVD: 126.60 Mbit/s

Now yes, DVD only peaks at the outer edge. Game developers are fully aware of that, and take advantage of this fact by placing the most critical data on the fastest part of the disc.

Is there really any need to say that again? I believe everybody in their right mind know that by now. Those who are in denial will not listen, so why bother. I always find it funnt when $ony tries to convince people that having to swap a disk after 12 hous of game is an issue... does anyone remember FF VIII and IX, or Legend of Dragoon and many other PS1 titles, that did came in 4 disks? Was it not a problem then?

I'm really tired of all this "The 360 uses outdated hardware because it doesnt have Blu Ray" or "This game is only possible on Blu Ray"

Lets look at some facts:

1) Blu Ray is too slow at 2x to stream data off the disc hence the installs

2) A lot of 1st party and exclusive 3rd party games require installs that are up to 5 gb in size for many games

-Hot Shots Golf

-MGS4

Multiplat:

-DMC4

-SC4

-GTA4

etc etc

3) If you've played MGS4 you know how many load screens there are, there are load screen for MENUS. Also:

-About 20 mins worth of installs 4.5 gb of space used up

-Installs in between every chapter even after you've gone through them once

4) MGS4 was confirmed to be about 33gb from someone who used a pc Blu Ray drive:

http://i32.tinypic.com/2b1574.jpg

5) Remember FF13"only possible on Blu Ray"?

In reality 2x Blu Ray is gimped. Sorry but thats the truth. If it was at 4x it would be an advantage. But at 2x there is a trade off with Blu Ray, installations and hard drive space or getting up and changing a disc every 12 hours. I'd rather change discs.

mephisto_11

Actually those installs are only benefitable.

It puts alot less strain on the bluray lense and hence giving it a longer life cycle.

So by all means, if my system remains operational for 10 years, let there be hours and hours of installs.

lost odyssey would not need to be four discs if it was on blu ray. i love it how the person that asked that question completely ignored this fact. 360 users can look forward to a 2-3 disc ffXIII.desyple

And you can look forward to a 20 minute, 4gb installation :)

[QUOTE="desyple"]lost odyssey would not need to be four discs if it was on blu ray. i love it how the person that asked that question completely ignored this fact. 360 users can look forward to a 2-3 disc ffXIII.SpinoRaptor

And you can look forward to a 20 minute, 4gb installation :)

We already had that with DMC4, didnt really bother much.

What's important here is the lense's life. You guys already have your RROD. Oh and that's right, a very handful of disc reading errors :) I wonder why...

[QUOTE="SpinoRaptor"]

[QUOTE="desyple"]lost odyssey would not need to be four discs if it was on blu ray. i love it how the person that asked that question completely ignored this fact. 360 users can look forward to a 2-3 disc ffXIII.1xcalibur1

And you can look forward to a 20 minute, 4gb installation :)

We already had that with DMC4, didnt really bother much.

What's important here is the lense's life. You guys already have your RROD. Oh and that's right, a very handful of disc reading errors :) I wonder why...

The RROD has nothing to do with the DVD player and DRE's are a PS2 problem. So what was your argument again?

[QUOTE="SpinoRaptor"]

[QUOTE="desyple"]lost odyssey would not need to be four discs if it was on blu ray. i love it how the person that asked that question completely ignored this fact. 360 users can look forward to a 2-3 disc ffXIII.1xcalibur1

And you can look forward to a 20 minute, 4gb installation :)

We already had that with DMC4, didnt really bother much.

What's important here is the lense's life. You guys already have your RROD. Oh and that's right, a very handful of disc reading errors :) I wonder why...

Of course, when cows can't think up of a good argument, they yell RROD.

And where did you get DRE from?

[QUOTE="1xcalibur1"][QUOTE="SpinoRaptor"]

[QUOTE="desyple"]lost odyssey would not need to be four discs if it was on blu ray. i love it how the person that asked that question completely ignored this fact. 360 users can look forward to a 2-3 disc ffXIII.SpinoRaptor

And you can look forward to a 20 minute, 4gb installation :)

We already had that with DMC4, didnt really bother much.

What's important here is the lense's life. You guys already have your RROD. Oh and that's right, a very handful of disc reading errors :) I wonder why...

Of course, when cows can't think up of a good argument, they yell RROD.

And where did you get DRE from?

The 360 has DRE issues. Google it if you don't believe me. It's just overshadowed by RRoD so you don't often hear from it.

Absolutely Needed? no

Useful? Hell yes, and you're kidding yourself if you think dev's dont like all that extra space, it saves all that time on compression.

Oh and it depends on the dev's talent with installation times, want proof?

Call of Duty 4 + Uncharted = no installations, and run perfectly, so that makes this entire thread FAIL.

[QUOTE="NielsNL"][QUOTE="BobHipJames"]

1) is false

Games like Uncharted show that it is possible to make games with no-in-game loading screens on the PS3 due to streaming assets from both the hard disc and the Blu Ray drive WITHOUT having an install process.

The Blu Ray has two bonuses over DVD-9:

1) the obvious, it's higher capacity

2) it has a FIXED read speed that is higher than the AVERAGE speed of the DVD-9. Because the DVD-9's read speed is variable, depending on where the data is placed, if the disc is packed full of data that needs to be accessed evenly, the drive obviously isn't going to be reading the outer rim of the disc (the fastest read speed) all of the time. If it's an even spread, the DVD-9 is going to variate between fastest and slowest and fall behind the consistent average speed of the Blu Ray drive, which is more than adequate. It's much faster than the slowest read speed of the 360's DVD-9 drive and significantly slower than the fastest read speed.

If you have a packed disc and need to cram a lot of data into each disc, another limitation arises in DVD-9. Essential data that is integral to the game must be placed on EACH and EVERY disc or perhaps just 2 or 3 of them. For example, character models and specific texture/level data. If you have a persistent level map, say, the one in Final Fantasy VII, you need to make the entire world map available on all the discs you are able to free roam. Dialogue is the same, as is any other kind of essential data.

That means that the sub-8 gigabytes available on the DVD-9 is further compromised, spreading it across more and more discs and forcing each disc to be more crammed, forcing the developers to hassle with the logical technique of putting the most desired and most frequently accessed data on the outer rim. Development then necessitates that they place data evenly, giving rise to a non-ideal situation in which Blu Ray's read speed would be superior to the DVD's average.

So, let's say, for sports games and other junky non-story-driven games, DVD-9 is going to be a plus since you're not going to need to cram. But on RPGs and other stuff where you pack a lot of material onto the disc, the Blu Ray is both going to be able to hold something like at least 5-6 times more data per disc on a dual-layer in addition to having a faster average read speed.

That, and, I'm not sure what the hell Naughty Dog did on Uncharted, but assuming anyone can replicate that, game over, gentlemen. PS3 wins this debate.

That said, a lot of developers are really sloppy with loading/installs on the PS3. At least that's what I have to assume, since there is no technical limitation that I can see on PS3.

Stonin

Yo lemmings, you all ignoring this post is nothing more than damage control. This obviously is the only guy posting in this thread that has a clue what he's posting about, and it's being ignored by lemmings since it doesn't fit their fanboy vision.

Well i'm no Lemming but i'm pretty sure he is wrong about BR read speeds. I think that it has already been proven that at 4x BR is faster than a DVD-9 on average...but the PS3 runs at 2x and IS slower than the DVD.

Also, if you need 50GB to make a great game then how come Crysis fits on a DVD-9? And when installed without language packs takes under 3GB of hard drive space? Developers need to spend more money on licensing compression technology.

Sony fans hate the fact that they can't show why BR is needed and yet they all had to stump up the cash for it being in the PS3 (and now have to suffer cut down console versions as a result). It was a trojan horse, it won the format war for the BR association, it lost you your backwards compatibility and many functions from the PS3 and it barely, if at all, helps make games better.

Don't know who's right since I'm no techie myself. He sounds more plausible than you do though.

And Crysis is a great game. That doesn't mean that games can't improve with a larger storage medium. Imagine what Crysis would have been like if it had twice as much content. It would be better now wouldn't it? And why are you trying to make it seem as if compression is a good thing? No compression = better quality image / audio.

And what are you talking about the console being expensive? You probably don't own one, so that's not your prolem now is it? And maybe you're right about BR now having made game better, yet, but it also hasn't made them worse, and I think you need to give devs more then just over one and a half years to exploit a new technology like that. And your b/c argument is totally flawed, especially since I was just playing Dragon Quest 8 on my PS3.

"games will never use that much space"

I love how history repeats itself.

FragTycoon

Yep.

no its not needed or very useful. as a gaming format its not developed enough and it wasnt built for games but movies. the drive is just too slow. with devs needing to do installs and use dummy data and multiple copies of stuff on the same disc, the space advantage it greatly eroded. the PS3 itself cant deal with massive texture sizes either so even if a dev filled the blu-ray disc up with high res textures, it wouldnt matter.

thank god sony have a HDD in there as standard. if they didnt then loading times would be stupidly long. the drive would be really holding the PS3 back if it was on its own. i still wish they prioritized games over movies but its sony and games always come second to movies for sony.

i hope next gen they either stick to blu-ray and greatly increase its speed (with access times and low latencies taking priority, its space massively underused this gen in terms so theres no need to panic on that front next gen) or they go the digital distribution route (which sony seem to be very keen on).

It's useful, but it's not necessary. Not only do the games cost more, but Blu-Ray movies are expensive.Shad0ki11

You need to take a trip to best buy, PS3 and 360 games are both $60

I have to admit that I have no interest in blu ray for games of otherwise. I'm not seeing the benefits in games (for whatever reason)

When DVD was released it was a massive jump over VHS for movies. It gave a better picture, had menu's, scenes, the ability to jump scences, bonus features, subtitles, it was smaller the list goes on.

Blu ray doesn;t seem to offer much over DVD - esp for the price difference.

I'm really tired of all this "The 360 uses outdated hardware because it doesnt have Blu Ray" or "This game is only possible on Blu Ray"

Lets look at some facts:

1) Blu Ray is too slow at 2x to stream data off the disc hence the installs

2) A lot of 1st party and exclusive 3rd party games require installs that are up to 5 gb in size for many games

-Hot Shots Golf

-MGS4

Multiplat:

-DMC4

-SC4

-GTA4

etc etc

3) If you've played MGS4 you know how many load screens there are, there are load screen for MENUS. Also:

-About 20 mins worth of installs 4.5 gb of space used up

-Installs in between every chapter even after you've gone through them once

4) MGS4 was confirmed to be about 33gb from someone who used a pc Blu Ray drive:

http://i32.tinypic.com/2b1574.jpg

5) Remember FF13"only possible on Blu Ray"?

In reality 2x Blu Ray is gimped. Sorry but thats the truth. If it was at 4x it would be an advantage. But at 2x there is a trade off with Blu Ray, installations and hard drive space or getting up and changing a disc every 12 hours. I'd rather change discs.

mephisto_11

The 360 dose use outdated hardware. Wireless vs Bluetooth, No WiFi, the PS2 has 2 USB ports, PS3 has 4 and card readers, 360 has 1 USB port, CD tray vs Driect feed, 360 power button vs PS3 touch sentive power and eject button, yea....pretty much outdated.........didnt even have to use blu-ray.

Blu-ray speed: 360 fans try and hold this againts the PS3, BUT......you cannot compair two different technologies read speeds. If thats the case, compair CD's to DVD's

Installs has nothing to do with Blu-ray.

If it was 4x?, 2x is a advantage over DVD9

You need to do some research.....4real!

The 360 dose use outdated hardware. Wireless vs Bluetooth, No WiFi, the PS2 has 2 USB ports, PS3 has 4 and card readers, 360 has 1 USB port, CD tray vs Driect feed, 360 power button vs PS3 touch sentive power and eject button, yea....pretty much outdated.........didnt even have to use blu-ray.

Blu-ray speed: 360 fans try and hold this againts the PS3, BUT......you cannot compair two different technologies read speeds. If thats the case, compair CD's to DVD's

Installs has nothing to do with Blu-ray.

If it was 4x?, 2x is a advantage over DVD9

You need to do some research.....4real!

CubanBlunt

Wifi is an optional extra (rip off or not - but it still has it)

I don't know if i'd call buttons outdated lol The PS3's just uses alternatives. Same goes for the disk tray lol

I've not counted the USB ports on the 360 but I know it has more than 1 as there is two on the front for a start?

The PS3's best exclusive, MGS4, has it's 50gb Blu Ray disc, plus installation on start up, plus more installation every chapter, and it still has noticable loading. Not horrible, but noticable. Blu Ray will be awesome next gen perhaps, but this gen it's not needed, and isn't making a major difference.

Don't know who's right since I'm no techie myself. He sounds more plausible than you do though.

And Crysis is a great game. That doesn't mean that games can't improve with a larger storage medium. Imagine what Crysis would have been like if it had twice as much content. It would be better now wouldn't it? And why are you trying to make it seem as if compression is a good thing? No compression = better quality image / audio.

And what are you talking about the console being expensive? You probably don't own one, so that's not your prolem now is it? And maybe you're right about BR now having made game better, yet, but it also hasn't made them worse, and I think you need to give devs more then just over one and a half years to exploit a new technology like that. And your b/c argument is totally flawed, especially since I was just playing Dragon Quest 8 on my PS3.

NielsNL

Err I can asure you I own one, I bought it at launch. My arguement about BC isn't flawed as they have now removed it from the console in order to lower the price...a price which was too high due to BR. Sure its ok if you have an older version but considering they sold it as 100% BC and now there is no mention of it being 100% Uncompatible I find that rather annoying. It is also annoying that they don't bother fixing the games that have issues.

No compression will only have an impact on audio and only for those with incredible sound systems. Visual quality is not compromised by it at all.

Yes more content would have been good in Crysis but they could have doubled the size of the game and it would STILL fit on a DVD-9.

BR was not in there to improve games, as Sony told us it was, and that is what annoys people.

[QUOTE="SpinoRaptor"]

[QUOTE="desyple"]lost odyssey would not need to be four discs if it was on blu ray. i love it how the person that asked that question completely ignored this fact. 360 users can look forward to a 2-3 disc ffXIII.1xcalibur1

And you can look forward to a 20 minute, 4gb installation :)

We already had that with DMC4, didnt really bother much.

What's important here is the lense's life. You guys already have your RROD. Oh and that's right, a very handful of disc reading errors :) I wonder why...

You haven't spent enough time in the PS3 forum. Read issues with the BluRay drive are occasionally reported as well.

Installs has nothing to do with Blu-ray.

CubanBlunt

Actually they kinda do.

Oh, and BTW: The 360 has three USB ports. And the 40GB PS3 only has two, and no card slots.

[QUOTE="CubanBlunt"]

Installs has nothing to do with Blu-ray.

ThePlothole

Actually they kinda do.

Oh, and BTW: The 360 has three USB ports. And the 40GB PS3 only has two, and no card slots.

Every stupid lemming has been owned on this thread. There is another thread where id (you know the guys who make doom) are talking about the limitations of the 360 and its dvd over the PS3's blueray. I will take the comments of a respected and seasoned develper over a bunch of MS RROD loving lems. RAGE is going to suck on 360 compared to PS3. Sucks to be a lemming stuck with the same technology as the Wii. The Wii and 360 are like brother and sister while the PS3 in a league all by itself.

sony is using it to further their companies interest, not the gamers.

compression and multiple dvds are fine this gen. Only 2 1st party games use multiple dvds and 100% multiplats use 1 dvd.

[QUOTE="ThePlothole"][QUOTE="CubanBlunt"]

Installs has nothing to do with Blu-ray.

howell1972

Actually they kinda do.

Oh, and BTW: The 360 has three USB ports. And the 40GB PS3 only has two, and no card slots.

Every stupid lemming has been owned on this thread. There is another thread where id (you know the guys who make doom) are talking about the limitations of the 360 and its dvd over the PS3's blueray. I will take the comments of a respected and seasoned develper over a bunch of MS RROD loving lems. RAGE is going to suck on 360 compared to PS3. Sucks to be a lemming stuck with the same technology as the Wii. The Wii and 360 are like brother and sister while the PS3 in a league all by itself.

You can't read between the lines can you?

Cormack is pissed at the royalties he has to pay for a 3rd disc. It has nothing to do with blooo ray or dvd. MS policy is to charge higher royalties for more discs and Cormack is angling for less. It has nothing to do with the hardware and everything to do with MS's policies.

Remember when Cormack said the cell was a limitation and you were all "Cormack doesn't know anything", "What a lazy dev".. How quickly the cows change their minds..

[QUOTE="mephisto_11"][QUOTE="FragTycoon"]

"games will never use that much space"

I love how history repeats itself.

SiKh22

Multiple cartridge games didn't work back in the day and compression technology wasn't where it was today. Its a completely different story today. Show me one game that couldn't be done on DVD9. AND DONT SAY MGS4

you guys have one game on your own system Lost odyssey

[QUOTE="SiKh22"][QUOTE="mephisto_11"][QUOTE="FragTycoon"]

"games will never use that much space"

I love how history repeats itself.

ermacness

Multiple cartridge games didn't work back in the day and compression technology wasn't where it was today. Its a completely different story today. Show me one game that couldn't be done on DVD9. AND DONT SAY MGS4

you guys have one game on your own system Lost odyssey

Are you guys stupid?

I asked for a game that cant be done on DVD9. Lost Odyssey is on DVD9. I never said show me a game that can't be done on a single dvd9 disc. DVD9 is the name of the format

for chrissakes

Rofl

[QUOTE="BobHipJames"]

1) is false

Games like Uncharted show that it is possible to make games with no-in-game loading screens on the PS3 due to streaming assets from both the hard disc and the Blu Ray drive WITHOUT having an install process.

The standard HDD being able to speed things up in SOME games proves BLURAY is needed? Only if you attribute the HDD being standard in the PS3 BECAUSE of the speed of 2x BR.

The Blu Ray has two bonuses over DVD-9:

1) the obvious, it's higher capacity

I'll give you this one.

2) it has a FIXED read speed that is higher than the AVERAGE speed of the DVD-9. Because the DVD-9's read speed is variable, depending on where the data is placed, if the disc is packed full of data that needs to be accessed evenly, the drive obviously isn't going to be reading the outer rim of the disc (the fastest read speed) all of the time. If it's an even spread, the DVD-9 is going to variate between fastest and slowest and fall behind the consistent average speed of the Blu Ray drive, which is more than adequate. It's much faster than the slowest read speed of the 360's DVD-9 drive and significantly slower than the fastest read speed.

This would be a difference over DVD, NOT a "bonus". The sustained read speed comes at a cost of MUCH worse seek times due to changing the disc rotational speed to maintain that read speed. On the first layer of a DVD9 the read speed of the DVD drive will vary from the same as 2x BR, all the way up to nearly twice as fast....on the second layer is where it slows down(bringing the average read speed of slightly below 2x BR IIRC). There is still over half the DVD's capacity that will read faster than 2x bluray. You have to be just as aware of where you put files on BR as you do on DVD. On DVD's you need to put the most accessed files towards the outer edge of the disc, and with bluray you have to have the files stored sequentially on the disc in the order you read them in order to not have the seek time issue(This is why data is duplicated in games on bluray...so that you can read files that are needed in more than one part of the game read from the same part of the disc as the data you are currently reading. In other words, your bonuses are basically 6 of 1, and half a dozen of the other. It certainly doesn't show BR to be "needed".

If you have a packed disc and need to cram a lot of data into each disc, another limitation arises in DVD-9. Essential data that is integral to the game must be placed on EACH and EVERY disc or perhaps just 2 or 3 of them. For example, character models and specific texture/level data. If you have a persistent level map, say, the one in Final Fantasy VII, you need to make the entire world map available on all the discs you are able to free roam. Dialogue is the same, as is any other kind of essential data.

That means that the sub-8 gigabytes available on the DVD-9 is further compromised, spreading it across more and more discs and forcing each disc to be more crammed, forcing the developers to hassle with the logical technique of putting the most desired and most frequently accessed data on the outer rim. Development then necessitates that they place data evenly, giving rise to a non-ideal situation in which Blu Ray's read speed would be superior to the DVD's average.

As I already stated BR has just as many concerns about data placement, and much of the extra storage space the format provides is used to duplicate data to overcome the speed issues the format has...in a lot of cases you wouldn't have used the extra space the format provides if you didn't have to overcome the speed problem, and it becomes pointless.

So, let's say, for sports games and other junky non-story-driven games, DVD-9 is going to be a plus since you're not going to need to cram. But on RPGs and other stuff where you pack a lot of material onto the disc, the Blu Ray is both going to be able to hold something like at least 5-6 times more data per disc on a dual-layer in addition to having a faster average read speed.

And RPG'S are inherently the genre that is BEST suited to multidiscing, due to their linear nature.

That, and, I'm not sure what the hell Naughty Dog did on Uncharted, but assuming anyone can replicate that, game over, gentlemen. PS3 wins this debate.

They had a game that COULD do that. Also, for the PS3 to "win this debate" wouldn't that have to be shown to be impossible to be accomplished on the 360?

That said, a lot of developers are really sloppy with loading/installs on the PS3. At least that's what I have to assume, since there is no technical limitation that I can see on PS3.

Bluray isn't the bed of roses you think it is...the HDD installs are there because they're needed, not because of developers being sloppy.

NielsNL

Yo lemmings, you all ignoring this post is nothing more than damage control. This obviously is the only guy posting in this thread that has a clue what he's posting about, and it's being ignored by lemmings since it doesn't fit their fanboy vision.

[QUOTE="SiKh22"][QUOTE="mephisto_11"][QUOTE="FragTycoon"]

"games will never use that much space"

I love how history repeats itself.

ermacness

Multiple cartridge games didn't work back in the day and compression technology wasn't where it was today. Its a completely different story today. Show me one game that couldn't be done on DVD9. AND DONT SAY MGS4

you guys have one game on your own system Lost odyssey

[QUOTE="ThePlothole"][QUOTE="CubanBlunt"]

Installs has nothing to do with Blu-ray.

howell1972

Actually they kinda do.

Oh, and BTW: The 360 has three USB ports. And the 40GB PS3 only has two, and no card slots.

Every stupid lemming has been owned on this thread. There is another thread where id (you know the guys who make doom) are talking about the limitations of the 360 and its dvd over the PS3's blueray. I will take the comments of a respected and seasoned develper over a bunch of MS RROD loving lems. RAGE is going to suck on 360 compared to PS3. Sucks to be a lemming stuck with the same technology as the Wii. The Wii and 360 are like brother and sister while the PS3 in a league all by itself.

[QUOTE="ermacness"][QUOTE="SiKh22"][QUOTE="mephisto_11"][QUOTE="FragTycoon"]

"games will never use that much space"

I love how history repeats itself.

Steppy_76

Multiple cartridge games didn't work back in the day and compression technology wasn't where it was today. Its a completely different story today. Show me one game that couldn't be done on DVD9. AND DONT SAY MGS4

you guys have one game on your own system Lost odyssey

Strange....I have 8 PS3 games and only two of them have "large installs" GT5: P and MGS4

(with GT5: P leading with over 5gb)

and how can you explain the game pricing? with xbox 360 games the same price as PS3 games, yet the PS3 uses a blu ray disc (which costs alot more to make compared to a DVD9)

Blu ray and "teh cell" are 2 of the biggest loads of BS ive heard this gen.Gh0st_Of_0nyx

is that because its more stable than the 360's processor? or that Blu ray can store HD compared to those crappy little discs that the Wii uses, so are you willing to explain why they are BS? or are you just gonna make another invalid point like "teh PS3 suks becoz it uses big disks"?

If blu ray has soo much more space on compared to DVD9 and the cell is sooooo awesome cakezzzz - why are we not getting the games to prove it?

That is why I feel that blu ray is not useful this gen

[QUOTE="mephisto_11"][QUOTE="FragTycoon"]

"games will never use that much space"

I love how history repeats itself.

SiKh22

Multiple cartridge games didn't work back in the day and compression technology wasn't where it was today. Its a completely different story today. Show me one game that couldn't be done on DVD9. AND DONT SAY MGS4

you guys have one game on your own system Lost odyssey

I don't care if it's needed for gaming. The installs don't bother me. My PS3 has a 200GB hard drive.

What I like is that I don't have to buy a separate Blu-Ray player to watch Blu-Ray movies.

is that because its more stable than the 360's processor? or that Blu ray can store HD compared to those crappy little discs that the Wii uses, so are you willing to explain why they are BS? or are you just gonna make another invalid point like "teh PS3 suks becoz it uses big disks"?

WWIAB

It's the 360's GPU that's to blame for the RROD, not its CPU. Also....

...Wii uses a regular sized DVD9s (though with proprietary formatting).

That's what I have been saying from day one. BR is not needed this gen.

Next gen BR will be needed... And I'll be there with my arms wide open. I could care less if Sony made it.