@eliminatorpaige: No, it makes me sincere. Lrdfancypants actually understood what I am getting at.
In the end, it won't matter. I'm positive that Scorpio has at peast a full first few months of native 4k content planned. Lemmings will proclaim it is the dawning of the Age of Scorpius. Then the first checkerboard format games start to creep out and Cows will be in rampant takedown mode.
The cycle of System Wars will go on and maybe a hand full of us or so will be sitting back and laughing at how predictable all of this was. "True 4K Console" while 20+ TFlop graphics cards finally allow us to bench cpu performance against 4k games with full graphics settings in the year 2019 or so. . . True 4k consoles getting replaced by 9th gen systems that will still struggle from time to time reaching native 4k.
Don't know why people are calling an unreleased console like the Scorpio half-baked. If the rumors are true 4K/30fps/medium settings will be achievable on a Scorpio for around 500$. It's something that has been feasible on PC since 2014(not for 500$).
I think both the Ps4Pro and Scorpio will both have some games native 4K and many more not native 4K and both will use the checkerboard or dynamic resolution scaling.
The people who thought the PS4Pro was PS4K were wrong and so will be the people touting Scorpio.
For a given TFLOPS power, AMD haven't mitigated the memory bandwidth problem with PS4 Pro i.e. 2.3X GPU increase should have at-least 2.3X increase in effective memory bandwidth e.g. 270 GB/s. PS4 Pro has about 228 GB/s effective memory bandwidth.
GTX 980 has 4.6 TFLOPS with 286 GB/s effective memory bandwidth.
Due to memory bandwidth bound issues, R9-290X is effectively similar to 980 for most cases.
On pure shader ALU comparison, there's nothing wrong with AMD GPU's TFLOPS.
Phil Spencer correctly identifies AMD GPU issues with it's high TFLOPS i.e. memory bandwidth.
When you talk to me about Scorpio, the term I use about the architecture isn’t the six teraflops which is obviously what we’ve announced, it’s balance. Really what it is, is you want a platform that is balanced between memory bandwidth, GPU power, you know, your ability to move memory and [an] amount of memory around in many ways is more inhibiting to the performance of your game than absolute teraflops on any one of the individual pieces, and when we designed Scorpio we really thought about this balanced rig that could come together at a price-point. Like, I want Scorpio to be at a console price-point, I’m not trying to go and compete with a high-end rig. And because we’re building one spec, we’re able to look at the balance between all the components and make sure that it’s something we really hit that matters to consumers and gamers.
Phil Spencer correctly identifies AMD GPU issues with it's high TFLOPS i.e. memory bandwidth.
When you talk to me about Scorpio, the term I use about the architecture isn’t the six teraflops which is obviously what we’ve announced, it’s balance. Really what it is, is you want a platform that is balanced between memory bandwidth, GPU power, you know, your ability to move memory and [an] amount of memory around in many ways is more inhibiting to the performance of your game than absolute teraflops on any one of the individual pieces, and when we designed Scorpio we really thought about this balanced rig that could come together at a price-point. Like, I want Scorpio to be at a console price-point, I’m not trying to go and compete with a high-end rig. And because we’re building one spec, we’re able to look at the balance between all the components and make sure that it’s something we really hit that matters to consumers and gamers.
From https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GTX_1060_STRIX_OC/6.html
For R9-390X(5.9 TFLOPS)
Assassin Creed: Syndicate: 4K at 30 fps, Nvidia Gameworks
Battlefield 4: 4K at 30 fps
Batman Arkham Knight: 4K at 37.3 fps, Nvidia Gameworks
Doom 2016: 4K at 35.6 fps
F1 2016: 4K at 36.4 fps
Fallout 4: 4K at 35 fps, Nvidia Gameworks
Far Cry Primal: 4K at 29.1 fps, Nvidia Gameworks
GTA 5: 4K at 35.6 fps
Hitman: 4K at 33.5 fps
Just Cause 3: 4K at 32.8 fps, Nvidia Gameworks
Rainbow Six Siege: 4K at 42.2 fps, Nvidia Gameworks
That's a sample of 16 games that are available on game consoles, 10 games reach about 30 fps.
The Scorpio will obviously be the more powerful machine but it'll have plenty of non native 4K games just like the Pro.
It shouldn't have many if any non-native 4K games if the rumors are true(they might not be). On a GTX 980 native 4K is possible with some tweaking in most games and if we consider the fact consoles often use custom settings not available on PC, it should make native 4K across the board a possibility.
I'll believe the all games will be native 4K when I see it. Since I've seen where Phil said they aren't requiring it I'll stick with the belief they won't all be native 4K.
I'll believe the all games will be native 4K when I see it. Since I've seen where Phil said they aren't requiring it I'll stick with the belief they won't all be native 4K.
If a game on R9-390X has 4K~30 fps results, a ~60 fps version would reduce resolution to 4K checkerboard 60 fps.
If a game on R9-390X has 4K~30 fps results, RX-470D would require 4K checkerboard ~30 fps.
If a game on R9-390X has 4K~40 fps results, 1/2 or 2/5 shader programs ported to double rate FP16 pack math feature would enough for 60 fps.
Further frame rate increase can be gain via quad rate Int8 feature for workloads suited for 8 bit integer.
Reducing shadow graphics setting is 101 frame rate booster.
Unless Phil has changed his position that they won't require 4K (which is a completely understandable position to take) I don't believe that every game will be native 4K (which is not bad).
As I said it obviously will be more powerful than the Pro and by that it will have more native 4K games but different devs will do different things with that power.
Unless Phil has changed his position that they won't require 4K (which is a completely understandable position to take) I don't believe that every game will be native 4K (which is not bad).
As I said it obviously will be more powerful than the Pro and by that it will have more native 4K games but different devs will do different things with that power.
As long PS4 game remains 1920x1080 at 30 fps and XBO game at 1600x900 at 30 fps profiles, baseline R9-390X can do it at 4k +30 fps with high/very high/ ultra graphics settings..
Vega's double rate FP16 and quad rate Int8 features would be important for future TFLOPS/TIOPS head room and can be use to get the game over 30 fps or 60 fps threshold.
If Scorpio includes Vega's tile cache render feature, my R9-390X estimate is scraped since it's closer to 6 TFLOPS Fp32 Maxwell v2 design.
I'm not emotionally invested in either the Pro or the Scorpio so the "ifs" will let me sit comfortably with my statement.
We will see soon if we get complete native 4K.
That would be awesome. I'm not holding my breath though.
Because:
1) Phil said it's not going to be required
2) All Xbox one games are compatible (maybe the power can provide a real beast mode. Which would be excellent but I'm skeptical.)
You have attempted to group Scorpio with PS4 Pro which is like grouping R9-390X with the water down RX-470D.
For 1 and 2.
Again, as long PS4 game remains 1920x1080 at 30 fps and XBO game at 1600x900 at 30 fps profiles, baseline R9-390X can do it at 4k +30 fps with very high/ ultra graphics settings. Removing NVIDIA Gameworks solves most of the problem.
NVIDIA Gameworks Screen Space Reflection and Depth of Field are the major frame rate gimping for Gears of War 4 PC build.
Most recent NVIDIA Gameworks enabled games are geared to sell higher GTX 1080 and Titan X Pascal SKUs.
Funny how 1080p/60 in the console space suddenly matters from people who played games at 720p on 360/PS3 & 512x448 on lot's of PS2 games. Cue the same shit when PS6/5 get's shitted on for sub-4K on some games, because current gamers are too young or stupid to get sub res are just as standard as 30FPS is.
"You have attempted to group Scorpio with PS4 Pro which is like grouping R9-390X with the water down RX-470D."
If you were standing in front of me I'd feel the need to slow my speech.
It's hard to do in text. I'll try for your sake.
I've said the Scorpio is more powerful.
I've said that obviously means it will have more native 4K games.
I've said that I think it will have plenty of games that aren't native 4K.
I've said that people who thought the ps4pro was going to be ps4k were wrong.
I've said that people who think the Scorpio will be all native 4K will be wrong also.
The thread groups Scorpio and the pro. I'm commenting on the thread. I don't think the pro and Scorpio are the same power.
Again, breathe deep. Relax. Put the charts away for your own good and in case anyone reading this is operating heavy machinery.
People made comments on PS4 Pro being PS4K since they don't have the visibility with the basic GPU parameters i.e. TFLOPS and physical memory bandwidth .
Once the PS4.5's TFLOPS number is known, an estimate can be given. For most cases, RX-470D is a close relative to PS4 Pro.
RX-470D is a lower SKU than RX-470.
Double rate FP16 feature may give PS4 Pro visual quality growth within effective memory bandwidth bounds.
Title makes it sound like pro and Scorpio are grouped together but isn't the Scorpio going to be a much more capable machine? Pro seems half baked.
Scorpio seems half-baked, too. Hence, the grouping.
Sure, the Scorpio will likely run games better and it is reasonable to assume it will run more cross platform titles natively at 4k than the Pro. That doesn't mean it is going to be a fully-fleshed out 4k machine. I've had to explain this over and over again despite it being explained very clearly in my OP.
Both are half-ass. Anything south of 12tflops (or twice the expected power of Scorpio) will still not have a beefy enough graphics chip to push a 4k monitor with any modicum of regularity. 9TFlops would have been far more capable. 6 and 4 are just paltry. Frankly, the average user with an HDR TV will be FAR more impressed with the leap in graphical fidelity both machines afford with their HDR capability than they will counting frames and pixels.
That is why I also contend that it is a good thing that both Sony and Microsoft are releasing these machines when they are. 4k content is 4k content, but let's not eat the marketing hype about what is or isn't "TRUE" 4k. That is a one way trip to lolz.
So this absurdity stems from you thinking my belief that the Scorpio will not have EVERY game at native 4K is bullshit?
The "Scorpio will obviously be the more powerful machine but it'll have plenty of non native 4K games just like the Pro." statement is your attempt to group Scorpio's results with PS4 Pro's results and they are not accurate.
Title makes it sound like pro and Scorpio are grouped together but isn't the Scorpio going to be a much more capable machine? Pro seems half baked.
Scorpio seems half-baked, too. Hence, the grouping.
Sure, the Scorpio will likely run games better and it is reasonable to assume it will run more cross platform titles natively at 4k than the Pro. That doesn't mean it is going to be a fully-fleshed out 4k machine. I've had to explain this over and over again despite it being explained very clearly in my OP.
Both are half-ass. Anything south of 12tflops (or twice the expected power of Scorpio) will still not have a beefy enough graphics chip to push a 4k monitor with any modicum of regularity. 9TFlops would have been far more capable. 6 and 4 are just paltry. Frankly, the average user with an HDR TV will be FAR more impressed with the leap in graphical fidelity both machines afford with their HDR capability than they will counting frames and pixels.
That is why I also contend that it is a good thing that both Sony and Microsoft are releasing these machines when they are. 4k content is 4k content, but let's not eat the marketing hype about what is or isn't "TRUE" 4k. That is a one way trip to lolz.
Again, as long PS4/XBO game maintains their 1920x1080p vs XBO's 1600x900p profiles, RX-390X can play the same game at 4K with very high/ultra settings** with PC's higher grade textures.
**No further NVIDIA Gameworks gimping with very minor visual quality increase.
1/3 shader workload ported to 2X FP16 hence 4 TFLOPS FP16 + 4 TFLOPS FP32 and "more than 320 GB/s" memory bandwidth has the basic parameters closer to GTX 1080 (9 TFLOPS, 312.5 GB/s memory bandwidth).
Vega's tile cache render will be important to close the effective memory bandwidth gap with both GTX 1070 and GTX 1080.
The half ass'ed game console is PS4 Pro since it's memory bandwidth wasn't sufficiently upgraded i.e. PS4 Pro doubles the FLOPS operation from 4.2 TFLOPS FP32 to 8.4 TFLOPS FP16 when data inputs/output are integers/fp16 without sufficiently increasing memory bandwidth?
PS4 Pro's 1/3 shader workload ported to 2X FP16 yields 2.772 TFLOPS FP16 + 2.8 TFLOPS FP32 = 5.572 TFLOPS with 228 GB/s effective memory bandwidth is half ass'ed. It's still under 4K...
I'm not grouping them as the same power. That's been repeated to you but you refuse to listen.
I do think that the Scorpio will have more native 4K because it is more powerful but I don't believe all games will be native 4K regardless of your belief it can pull it off because devs will do other things with that power.
Of course they are half-assed. They half-assed 1080, they're going to half-ass 4K.
It's all a marketing gimmick, 4K came along and instead of taking their time and doing it right, they took something great and turned it into a trend and something sensational that "we have to have" and now they're ruining it, rushing it out, and making it half the experience it should be.
But it's an upgrade, so people will be happy. But being kicked half as hard in the balls is an upgrade from being kicked twice as hard in the balls, so...
@Shewgenja: Scorpio will actually be able to do native 4K in many titles right off the bat(unlike Pro) and maybe, resort to checkerboard rendering down the line in the future as games get more graphically intense per pixel for balance of performance/graphics down the road
Poor thread
I've said this so many times now. You'll be lucky if it's a full year. Awesome thread.
@Shewgenja: Scorpio will actually be able to do native 4K in many titles right off the bat(unlike Pro) and maybe, resort to checkerboard rendering down the line in the future as games get more graphically intense per pixel for balance of performance/graphics down the road
Poor thread
The purpose for double rate FP16 feature is to provide additional FLOPS headroom for future games.
I'm not grouping them as the same power. That's been repeated to you but you refuse to listen.
I do think that the Scorpio will have more native 4K because it is more powerful but I don't believe all games will be native 4K regardless of your belief it can pull it off because devs will do other things with that power.
Sorry if that angers you.
Read my post again.
Again, as long PS4/XBO game maintains their 1920x1080p vs XBO's 1600x900p profiles, RX-390X can play the same game at 4K with very high/ultra settings with PC's higher grade textures.
Don't know why people are calling an unreleased console like the Scorpio half-baked. If the rumors are true 4K/30fps/medium settings will be achievable on a Scorpio for around 500$. It's something that has been feasible on PC since 2014(not for 500$).
+1.
This is the point that makes the TC's topic a false equivalency.
All the rumors point to Scorpio using Ryzen, devs that have seen it says it does native 4K and MS themselves have said from the announcement that it will be native 4K capable on all MS first party games which is very possible and probable since MS already knows the ramifications of saying something not true regarding the console's capabilities after the X1 announcement fiasco and getting reamed this gen in sales.
I'm personally not a resolution fanatic about 4K but its a nice option if you have a 4K tv. I hope they add the ability to play the games in 1080/60 or 4K/30.
The point though is the TC is trying to lump this console in with PS Pro when its not an even comparison. Just because the Pro is half-assed doesn't mean Scorpio will be.
I also find it kinda hypocritical of cows that after talking all gen about how much better 1080p is than 900p/720p, how weak the X1 is compared to the PS4 and how even the multiplats are superior on PS4, that now when the PS4 will be weaker by a good margin, now all of a sudden higher resolutions are bad for gaming and holding gaming back. Which is kind of a lame argument now that 4K tvs are becoming the norm.
4K is still early on sure, but acting like its not the future is kind of disingenuous and people with 4K tvs want 4K devices to use on them. Last year 4K tvs sold like hotcakes during the holidays and they'll sell even more this year since the prices continue to drop. 4K is the new 1080 on the hype spectrum.
Guess what else comes out this holiday to go with your new 4K tv? And the marketing schtick is native 4K just like how Sony hyped 1080p back at the beginning of this gen. When PS4 launched it sold 20 million units in two years with no major exclusive. Sony marketed multiplats as first party games and sold a shit ton of consoles with the promise of better stuff coming.
Now Sony fanboys are all saying its only about the games and how Scorpio will flop because it has no games. Theres at least four major games coming for Scorpio (Sea of Thieves, Crackdown 3, State of Decay 2 and Forza 7) and even without those games it'll have major multiplats in native 4K.
Not to mention the intangibles of the console we haven't seen yet. Its still possible they could really surprise everyone at E3 with something like a Steam app on Scorpio. Not saying its probable but its possible. What if everyone's favorite hater Tim Sweeney is wrong and Gabe and Phil actually cut a deal?
Bu bu but the cost! For $500-600 that's a pretty good deal. Cows spent $900 on the PSVR + PS Pro and say money well spent. But now 4K gaming isn't worth $500?
@Shewgenja: it will take longer then a year. Scorpio doesn't need to run every game at 4K ultra settings
Oh, that will be even sweeter. When DigitalFoundry shows that settings were ramped down to achieve 4k, I will raise a glass of Scotch to that. Cow Party here we come.
@Shewgenja: it will take longer then a year. Scorpio doesn't need to run every game at 4K ultra settings
Oh, that will be even sweeter. When DigitalFoundry shows that settings were ramped down to achieve 4k, I will raise a glass of Scotch to that. Cow Party here we come.
@Shewgenja: it will take longer then a year. Scorpio doesn't need to run every game at 4K ultra settings
Oh, that will be even sweeter. When DigitalFoundry shows that settings were ramped down to achieve 4k, I will raise a glass of Scotch to that. Cow Party here we come.
It must suck owning a Pro then.
To me, my Pro feels like a PS4 with the boot mode patch.
@Shewgenja: it will take longer then a year. Scorpio doesn't need to run every game at 4K ultra settings
Oh, that will be even sweeter. When DigitalFoundry shows that settings were ramped down to achieve 4k, I will raise a glass of Scotch to that. Cow Party here we come.
It must suck owning a Pro then.
Missing my point. I was being tongue-in-cheek. I'm sure neither will suck, but I'm also sure that neither are fully 4k generation consoles but half steps. Bottom line: 2 TFLops one way or the other does not make a monumental difference at 4x the pixel density or xyz maps for the game engines.
Missing my point. I was being tongue-in-cheek. I'm sure neither will suck, but I'm also sure that neither are fully 4k generation consoles but half steps. Bottom line: 2 TFLops one way or the other does not make a monumental difference at 4x the pixel density or xyz maps for the game engines.
I am not sure why anyone speaks of achieving 4k as a hard performance number because it isn't.
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