CNN host tries and fails to link videogames to violence, David Jaffe Responds

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hexashadow13

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#51 hexashadow13
Member since 2010 • 5157 Posts
[QUOTE="QuebecNationale"][QUOTE="hexashadow13"][QUOTE="QuebecNationale"]That was unprofessional of David Jaffe to call her and idiot mainly because I think she has a point there. While GTA doesn't reward you for killing innocents, violence in video games can be directly related to violent incidents in real life simply because video games sensualise violence. The more kids/adults see violence in video games, the more they will see it as "normal/right", and those people could eventually end up as serial killers who see's violence as right and justified, even if their violence is directed at innocent civilians. Keep in mind, I don't agree with everything the news anchor said, and I think she needs to re evaluate her comments, but that also doesn't mean she's necessarily wrong.

And do you have any evidence to support that claim?

I have common sense and logic as evidence. Just think about it for a second. The War on terror/Afghanistan is a perfect example of how violence can sensualised and seen as normal to the average citizen. Do you remember when Americans in droves cried over the loss of a US soldier? What happened when the casualties rose in greater numbers? People didn't start to care what happened to the soldiers, nor did people care what war crimes their soldiers committed. Mass violence via invasion of a foreign country made violence an everyday occurrence, in which people didn't care. Did Americans care when Gadaffi's body was dragged through the streets of Libya? No, because your average American viewed it as fine and acceptable, which is what I think the news anchor was trying to get at. Video games do exactly that, they visualise extreme violence, and I personally think that video games play a part in why Americans view savage like violence as normal and just.

So you would expect gun violence to go up with the rise of violent video games, but that is hardly the case. Gun violence has been going down for quite a while, and video games have had absolutely no noticeable statistical effect on that.  From =: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/ The rise of violent video games started about mid 1990s with Doom and all that and has ramped up since then. Does it look like that had any effect whatsoever on that curve? Violent video games may be the tipping point that leads insane people to do insane things, but they're insane so nothing is going to work in regards to them other than improved mental health infrastructure. America has always been a violent nation. That's just who we have been, and will most likely continue to be. Finding the events you mentioned perfectly acceptable would be the case if video games had or had never existed in the first place.
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Animal-Mother

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#52 Animal-Mother
Member since 2003 • 27362 Posts

I hate Erin Burnett, Plus this sh*t is getting out of hand.

Get to the real problem and don't blame a sub-culture on mass killings.

Video games may give people the buttons creatively. 
But video games don't kill people. There are people behind the trigger. 

There's so much more that goes on in one persons head than "VIDEO GAMES MADE ME DO IT"

. Erin Burnett is wrong. Where are the hard facts?

Instead these newscasters like to prod when professionals give them the answer.

And last but not least we have a rating system on games.

Kid under 17 can't go buy cod. It's absolutely obsurd that we have to be the scapegoat in all this.

Remember the UT tower shooting?
The guy was wearing a sick of it all shirt. What did the media naturally do? Blamed sick of it all. 

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jg4xchamp

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#53 jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64054 Posts

I love anytime Jaffe speaks his mind, but I'm pretty sure he could have reacted a little bit better.

He's not sh1tting on bottom of the barrel media here like Kotaku. He's being inappropriate to a CNN Anchor(arguly a stupid one) who technically has a much bigger, older, and less forgiving audience to him starting a debate with you are an idiot. With all due respect to Jaffe sh1tting the broad for being wrong(and she is) he should have went about his business a lot better than that. He comes off as a kid.

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JohnF111

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#54 JohnF111
Member since 2010 • 14190 Posts
I guess children who use plastic swords and pretend to be killing aliens are just as bad as teenagers and adults playing video games. Very same concept only the small children actually physically performs the actions and is literally creating the scenario in their head that they are killing bad things. inb4 CNN reports that small children will murder their mothers with knives and plastic swords should be banned.
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JohnF111

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#55 JohnF111
Member since 2010 • 14190 Posts

Violent video games may be the tipping point that leads insane people to do insane thingshexashadow13
That I can agree with, the people most likely to out and murder are people who are very likely playing video games because they can be alone and not socializing and quench their thirst for violence and killing, in otherwords they are predispositioned for it, like people who get schizophrenia from smoking cannabis where there is evidence that they had the underlying condition the whole time and cannabis sort of revealed it. That is the single, one and only thing I will say about video gaming making people into murderers that I believe has any shred of truth behind it.

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FastEddie2121

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#56 FastEddie2121
Member since 2009 • 3081 Posts
Had she said that Mario in GTA was over the top and that Sonic took things a step too far in the God of War series, I wouldn't be surprised. If these hacks cover something like this so poorly, what should we think about everything else they report on?
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svenus97

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#57 svenus97
Member since 2009 • 2318 Posts
[QUOTE="nervmeister"][QUOTE="Pedro"]This thread is proof that gamers are generally viewed as teenage idiots and is the reason why David Jaffe and the majority of gamers opinions are void outside of the confines of their social network.Pedro
Now now, Mrs. Burnett. I know Jaffe was a little hard on you, but try not to take what he said too personally.

Try not to do such a good job in solidifying my point. :)

You don't really have a point.
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mems_1224

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#58 mems_1224
Member since 2004 • 56919 Posts

*slow clap*

bravo jaffe, bravo

*wipes away tear*

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Miketheman83

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#59 Miketheman83
Member since 2010 • 3156 Posts
Jaffe is such a douche.
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Master_ShakeXXX

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#60 Master_ShakeXXX
Member since 2008 • 13361 Posts

"Know what makes me violent? When people blast crappy music at red lights. Luckily, I turn all violence inward so I just punch myself in the dick till I pass out or come. Its a 50/50 shot which will happen first."


Somebody posted that in the comments section. F*cking hilarious.

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Chutebox

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#61 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51588 Posts

The last paragraph was perfect.  That was awesome.

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Heil68

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#62 Heil68
Member since 2004 • 60824 Posts
I like David and he responded beautifully AND with class and tact.
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QuebecNationale

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#63 QuebecNationale
Member since 2013 • 146 Posts
[QUOTE="hexashadow13"][QUOTE="QuebecNationale"][QUOTE="hexashadow13"] And do you have any evidence to support that claim?

I have common sense and logic as evidence. Just think about it for a second. The War on terror/Afghanistan is a perfect example of how violence can sensualised and seen as normal to the average citizen. Do you remember when Americans in droves cried over the loss of a US soldier? What happened when the casualties rose in greater numbers? People didn't start to care what happened to the soldiers, nor did people care what war crimes their soldiers committed. Mass violence via invasion of a foreign country made violence an everyday occurrence, in which people didn't care. Did Americans care when Gadaffi's body was dragged through the streets of Libya? No, because your average American viewed it as fine and acceptable, which is what I think the news anchor was trying to get at. Video games do exactly that, they visualise extreme violence, and I personally think that video games play a part in why Americans view savage like violence as normal and just.

So you would expect gun violence to go up with the rise of violent video games, but that is hardly the case. Gun violence has been going down for quite a while, and video games have had absolutely no noticeable statistical effect on that.  From =: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/ The rise of violent video games started about mid 1990s with Doom and all that and has ramped up since then. Does it look like that had any effect whatsoever on that curve? Violent video games may be the tipping point that leads insane people to do insane things, but they're insane so nothing is going to work in regards to them other than improved mental health infrastructure. America has always been a violent nation. That's just who we have been, and will most likely continue to be. Finding the events you mentioned perfectly acceptable would be the case if video games had or had never existed in the first place.

Actually, gun violence has increased in the US over the years, and I'm also not sure why you're bringing guns into this when this is about video games, and how violent, savage behaviour is becoming more accepted each day. Also, the Virginia Tech shooter played violent video games, so there's proof that violence in video games factor in to real life violence. I don't think you fully understood my post; I didn't say violent video games are solely to blame for people perceiving savage violence as normal, but they do play a part in the grand scheme of things, which is what I think the CNN reporter was trying to get at; she's criticising the fact that video games have basically shown people that violence is good and acceptable, which shouldn't be the case in a normal and functioning society. This is all further enforced by the fact that most Americans were celebrating Gadaffi getting dragged through the streets of Libya. Such barbaric behaviour shouldn't be condoned but violent video games are playing a factor in this, and telling people that violence is acceptable. Also, I find it amusing that you justify extreme violence simply because "America has always been a violent nation". That kind of thinking is what leads to genocides, massacres and events that could otherwise be avoided.
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AcidThunder

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#64 AcidThunder
Member since 2010 • 2332 Posts

that woman is talking out of her ass got what she deserved
and to those of you saying that Jaffe should have been professional, it still wouldn't have made a difference cause the people like this woman have already made up their mind and no amount of proofs would make any difference to them
 

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Chutebox

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#65 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51588 Posts

[QUOTE="hexashadow13"][QUOTE="QuebecNationale"] I have common sense and logic as evidence. Just think about it for a second. The War on terror/Afghanistan is a perfect example of how violence can sensualised and seen as normal to the average citizen. Do you remember when Americans in droves cried over the loss of a US soldier? What happened when the casualties rose in greater numbers? People didn't start to care what happened to the soldiers, nor did people care what war crimes their soldiers committed. Mass violence via invasion of a foreign country made violence an everyday occurrence, in which people didn't care. Did Americans care when Gadaffi's body was dragged through the streets of Libya? No, because your average American viewed it as fine and acceptable, which is what I think the news anchor was trying to get at. Video games do exactly that, they visualise extreme violence, and I personally think that video games play a part in why Americans view savage like violence as normal and just.QuebecNationale
So you would expect gun violence to go up with the rise of violent video games, but that is hardly the case. Gun violence has been going down for quite a while, and video games have had absolutely no noticeable statistical effect on that.  From =: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/ The rise of violent video games started about mid 1990s with Doom and all that and has ramped up since then. Does it look like that had any effect whatsoever on that curve? Violent video games may be the tipping point that leads insane people to do insane things, but they're insane so nothing is going to work in regards to them other than improved mental health infrastructure. America has always been a violent nation. That's just who we have been, and will most likely continue to be. Finding the events you mentioned perfectly acceptable would be the case if video games had or had never existed in the first place.

  Also, the Virginia Tech shooter played violent video games, so there's proof that violence in video games factor in to real life violence. I don't think you fully understood my post; I didn't say violent video games are solely to blame for people perceiving savage violence as normal.

You're implying it.  Above is a perfect example.  He also attended school, I guess we can blame schools too.

You said she is using video games to point out that killing is ok, yet she used GTA and said something that simply isn't true.  You don't get points for running over or killing a hooker and it's not ok.  You steal money from her and you also get a certain people coming after you. 

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deactivated-5b69bebd1b0b6

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#66 deactivated-5b69bebd1b0b6
Member since 2009 • 6176 Posts

Also, the Virginia Tech shooter played violent video games, so there's proof that violence in video games factor in to real life violence.QuebecNationale

I fail to see how that's proof..  

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WithoutGraceXII

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#67 WithoutGraceXII
Member since 2007 • 1797 Posts
The moral of the story is, if you play enough CoD you'll gain all the skills of a special forces marine without moving off your couch. No wonder the game is so popular.
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klusps

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#68 klusps
Member since 2005 • 10386 Posts

Noticed in the video when they were showing Black Ops 2 gameplay it said "CallofDuty/InfinityWard"on the top right.:P

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Granny_Spanked

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#69 Granny_Spanked
Member since 2013 • 1341 Posts
Did she really say you get points for killing prostitutes?? Haha, what a moron.
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TheDidact

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#70 TheDidact
Member since 2012 • 3986 Posts

[QUOTE="QuebecNationale"]Also, the Virginia Tech shooter played violent video games, so there's proof that violence in video games factor in to real life violence.Crossel777

I fail to see how that's proof..  

Adam Lanza and James Holmes both breathed air. There must be something in the air that poisons people's minds. I propose that we remove all air from the United States of America in order to put an end to gun violence.
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Granny_Spanked

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#71 Granny_Spanked
Member since 2013 • 1341 Posts

[QUOTE="QuebecNationale"]Also, the Virginia Tech shooter played violent video games, so there's proof that violence in video games factor in to real life violence.Crossel777

I fail to see how that's proof..  

The Virginia Tech shooter never played video games, he was an avid technology user, but he didn't play video games.
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Plagueless

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#72 Plagueless
Member since 2010 • 2569 Posts
Wonder how long it will be before all these ignorant pre-internet generation morons will die off. And then, I wonder if because of the internet, if the next new media that comes along won't be blamed for everything by our generation.
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DivineSword

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#73 DivineSword  Moderator
Member since 2007 • 15840 Posts

I actually did a paper on this subject, and I have to agree with David Jaffe. There are no statistical evidences that show the detrimental side effect of video games for the consumer. More importantly, even though there are links that indicate that there might be some connection between video games and aggressive behavior, there is no causal link between violent video games and violent criminal activity.

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TheDidact

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#74 TheDidact
Member since 2012 • 3986 Posts
Wonder how long it will be before all these ignorant pre-internet generation morons will die off. And then, I wonder if because of the internet, if the next new media that comes along won't be blamed for everything by our generation.Plagueless
It's just a phase. TV used to be blamed for all violence. And Rock Music. And even books, just look at Catcher in the Rye.
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Cherokee_Jack

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#75 Cherokee_Jack
Member since 2008 • 32198 Posts

Nice and all, but it's much more effective to leave the rage aside and position yourself as the voice of reason.

Can't expect that of Jaffe, of course. It took some amazing self-restraint on his part just to keep from saying "f*ck".

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caseypayne69

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#76 caseypayne69
Member since 2002 • 5396 Posts

Ugh. CNN.

Also, kudos to David Jaff. He put this idiot in her place and remained a class act throughout.

Timstuff
It's obvious her motivates were to tarnish gaming and that Jeff and the Mental health provider called her on it. But Jeff was not being a class act. Shouldn't need to name call to prove your point. And no you do not get points for killing a hooker in GTA. You can get arrested.
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caseypayne69

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#77 caseypayne69
Member since 2002 • 5396 Posts

[QUOTE="QuebecNationale"]Also, the Virginia Tech shooter played violent video games, so there's proof that violence in video games factor in to real life violence.Crossel777

I fail to see how that's proof..  

He probably played tic tac to too. Better ban that.
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navyguy21

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#78 navyguy21
Member since 2003 • 17926 Posts
I am now afraid of Jaffe :P
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jsmoke03

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#79 jsmoke03
Member since 2004 • 13719 Posts

nice comeback, but i think his response should have been a lot more respectful because  as much as we know what we are talking about, acting hostille or combatative isn't going to get the other side to understand video games and gamers

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KungfuKitten

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#80 KungfuKitten
Member since 2006 • 27389 Posts

nice comeback, but i think his response should have been a lot more respectful because  as much as we know what we are talking about, acting hostille or combatative isn't going to get the other side to understand video games and gamers

jsmoke03

I don't know. She wasn't exactly tactful herself. I s'ppose you shouldn't let others change you like that. His response wasn't cIassy, I'll give you that. It won't matter much either way. The press can spread what they want. It's not like they ever listened to reason. They are not here to understand.

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drinkerofjuice

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#81 drinkerofjuice
Member since 2007 • 4567 Posts
Very good response, but to put Erin Burnett in her place is something of cakewalk proportions. She's an awful journalist with an awful show.
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Slashless

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#82 Slashless
Member since 2011 • 9534 Posts
While Video Games of course play a role in our violent society, no denying that, there are much bigger contributing factors than video games. And I don't see how you can put 'controls' on video games and movies. They're a form of freedom of speech and that freedom doesn't get to be nitpicked on what is and isn't acceptable. That and I don't remember a points system in GTA or getting 'rewarded' for killing someone. P. sure you get pursued by cops. But then again I actually played the game lol. Seriously though, so many people keep hammering on about "We got to look at the vidya" yet don't actually propose what to do. You can't sell an M rated game to a kid, a kid can't go into an R rated movie or buy one without a parent. What else could you possibly implement? This whole gun thing makes me sick, we have democrats who are afraid of guns yet don't know the first thing about them (LOL Assault weapons ban :lol: ) and we have Republicans afraid they're guns will be taken away so they try to find a scapegoat. And of course, LOL CNN and mainstream media.
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jsmoke03

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#83 jsmoke03
Member since 2004 • 13719 Posts

[QUOTE="jsmoke03"]

nice comeback, but i think his response should have been a lot more respectful because  as much as we know what we are talking about, acting hostille or combatative isn't going to get the other side to understand video games and gamers

KungfuKitten

I don't know. She wasn't exactly tactful herself. I s'ppose you shouldn't let others change you like that. His response wasn't cIassy, I'll give you that. It won't matter much either way. The press can spread what they want. It's not like they ever listened to reason. They are not here to understand.

yes she wasn't tactful, but she is in the majority, and us gamers are in the minority. yes they won't understand, they haven't had an open mind when it comes to really discussing gaming, but we shouldn't play to their stereotypes either. it just brings more hate and more obstacles. i'm an adult so ill be fine if they make the ratings enforceable by law, but i feel bad for the mature underage gamers.
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Cherokee_Jack

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#84 Cherokee_Jack
Member since 2008 • 32198 Posts

[QUOTE="jsmoke03"]

nice comeback, but i think his response should have been a lot more respectful because  as much as we know what we are talking about, acting hostille or combatative isn't going to get the other side to understand video games and gamers

KungfuKitten

I don't know. She wasn't exactly tactful herself. I s'ppose you shouldn't let others change you like that. His response wasn't cIassy, I'll give you that. It won't matter much either way. The press can spread what they want. It's not like they ever listened to reason. They are not here to understand.

An eye for an eye is not how you get respect. 

Especially when this whole debate concerns aggressive behavior.

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GD1551

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#85 GD1551
Member since 2011 • 9645 Posts

[QUOTE="KungfuKitten"]

[QUOTE="jsmoke03"]

nice comeback, but i think his response should have been a lot more respectful because  as much as we know what we are talking about, acting hostille or combatative isn't going to get the other side to understand video games and gamers

Cherokee_Jack

I don't know. She wasn't exactly tactful herself. I s'ppose you shouldn't let others change you like that. His response wasn't cIassy, I'll give you that. It won't matter much either way. The press can spread what they want. It's not like they ever listened to reason. They are not here to understand.

An eye for an eye is not how you get respect.

Hardly think he was looking for respect there.

EDIT: and the debate concerns with violent behaviour not aggressive behaviour.

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Cherokee_Jack

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#86 Cherokee_Jack
Member since 2008 • 32198 Posts

[QUOTE="Cherokee_Jack"][QUOTE="KungfuKitten"] I don't know. She wasn't exactly tactful herself. I s'ppose you shouldn't let others change you like that. His response wasn't cIassy, I'll give you that. It won't matter much either way. The press can spread what they want. It's not like they ever listened to reason. They are not here to understand.

GD1551

An eye for an eye is not how you get respect.

Hardly think he was looking for respect there.

Then what was he looking for? Catharsis? Not very constructive.
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GD1551

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#87 GD1551
Member since 2011 • 9645 Posts

Then what was he looking for? Catharsis? Not very constructive.Cherokee_Jack

It's a twitter post, and his points are very constructive no matter how they come across. He wasn't writing a paper or response to counter her points in a professional environment, the goal of his post was clearly to show the hypocrisy and deceitfulness she and many of those in her profession constantly display on a daily basis.

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Cherokee_Jack

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#88 Cherokee_Jack
Member since 2008 • 32198 Posts

[QUOTE="Cherokee_Jack"]

Then what was he looking for? Catharsis? Not very constructive.GD1551

It's a twitter post, and his points are very constructive no matter how they come across. He wasn't writing a paper or response to counter her points in a professional environment, the goal of his post was clearly to show the hypocrisy and deceitfulness she and many of those in her profession constantly display on a daily basis.

To who, us? We already agree with him.

To non-gamers? Like I said, it's always more effective to be the voice of reason and make the other side look unbalanced, especially if you're being portrayed as the crazy ones.

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GD1551

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#89 GD1551
Member since 2011 • 9645 Posts

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

[QUOTE="Cherokee_Jack"]

Then what was he looking for? Catharsis? Not very constructive.Cherokee_Jack

It's a twitter post, and his points are very constructive no matter how they come across. He wasn't writing a paper or response to counter her points in a professional environment, the goal of his post was clearly to show the hypocrisy and deceitfulness she and many of those in her profession constantly display on a daily basis.

To who, us? We already agree with him.

To non-gamers? Like I said, it's always more effective to be the voice of reason and make the other side look unbalanced.

Anyone with a shred of intellect would look beyond the lewdness of the wording and focus on the actual points and of course it was to us, non-gamers don't know who he is, and don't follow his twitter.

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Slashless

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#90 Slashless
Member since 2011 • 9534 Posts

Anyone with a shred of intellect

GD1551

>CNN Viewers

>404 Not Found.

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jg4xchamp

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#91 jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64054 Posts

Anyone with a shred of intellect would look beyond the lewdness of the wording and focus on the actual points and of course it was to us, non-gamers don't know who he is, and don't follow his twitter.

GD1551

Even if he had a good point to make he comes off as a douche. Instead of coming off as an adult with a consturctive argument he came off as a whiny brat because someone had a conflicting(albeit completely ignorant) opinion. It's not good from an industry standpoint to have what is a pretty decorated game designer putting out a rebuttal like that.

Again it's over twitter so no harm no foul, but as an argument it's presented in far too childish of a manner to be celebrated. There is no real reason to be that emotional about it, especially since you're the one presenting an argument directly.

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Cherokee_Jack

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#92 Cherokee_Jack
Member since 2008 • 32198 Posts

[QUOTE="Cherokee_Jack"]

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

It's a twitter post, and his points are very constructive no matter how they come across. He wasn't writing a paper or response to counter her points in a professional environment, the goal of his post was clearly to show the hypocrisy and deceitfulness she and many of those in her profession constantly display on a daily basis.

GD1551

To who, us? We already agree with him.

To non-gamers? Like I said, it's always more effective to be the voice of reason and make the other side look unbalanced.

Anyone with a shred of intellect would look beyond the lewdness of the wording and focus on the actual points and of course it was to us, non-gamers don't know who he is, and don't follow his twitter.

So in other words he's preaching to the choir.

Thanks, Dave!

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jsmoke03

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#93 jsmoke03
Member since 2004 • 13719 Posts

[QUOTE="Cherokee_Jack"]

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

It's a twitter post, and his points are very constructive no matter how they come across. He wasn't writing a paper or response to counter her points in a professional environment, the goal of his post was clearly to show the hypocrisy and deceitfulness she and many of those in her profession constantly display on a daily basis.

GD1551

To who, us? We already agree with him.

To non-gamers? Like I said, it's always more effective to be the voice of reason and make the other side look unbalanced.

Anyone with a shred of intellect would look beyond the lewdness of the wording and focus on the actual points and of course it was to us, non-gamers don't know who he is, and don't follow his twitter.

shred of intellect? you place too much faith in people...
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GD1551

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#94 GD1551
Member since 2011 • 9645 Posts

So in other words he's preaching to the choir.

Thanks, Dave!

Cherokee_Jack

More than likely he was venting through his twitter, you are placing more importance on his statement than there is.

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DarkLink77

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#95 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

Good job, Jaffe.

Now go make a great game again.

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Cherokee_Jack

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#96 Cherokee_Jack
Member since 2008 • 32198 Posts

[QUOTE="Cherokee_Jack"]

So in other words he's preaching to the choir.

Thanks, Dave!

GD1551

More than likely he was venting through his twitter, you are placing more importance on his statement than there is.

Everyone in this thread is placing too much importance on his statement, then. Jaffe placed too much importance on it.
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DarkLink77

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#97 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

Jaffe could have probably been less of a dick about it. Calling the person you're arguing with an idiot only works on System Wars.

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BPoole96

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#98 BPoole96
Member since 2008 • 22818 Posts

Jaffe shouldn't have acted so childish since many that follow that new anchor are not gamers and his response will just further solidify their stigmas against gamers when they see a grown man acting that way.

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GD1551

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#99 GD1551
Member since 2011 • 9645 Posts

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

[QUOTE="Cherokee_Jack"]

So in other words he's preaching to the choir.

Thanks, Dave!

Cherokee_Jack

More than likely he was venting through his twitter, you are placing more importance on his statement than there is.

Everyone in this thread is placing too much importance on his statement, then. Jaffe placed too much importance on it.

Agreeing with him isn't placing importance on it. You are however making it seem like he was trying to convince people otherwise with his rant, when it was really just a rant full of good points.

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wis3boi

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#100 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

Sim City causes mass droves of young people to earn City Planning degrees. More at 11