Defining the War - an Open Letter to SW

I know what CaseyWegner trying to do for System Wars. The "keep it here" hype threads, the stickied bet thread, the "sales or games" - he's making System Wars into a game. He has people vote on the rules for the game, people make a wager (either a bet, or simply a hype), and the winner is determined by the "voted on" scoring method. My theory was confirmed when he sticked a thread containing a history of the hyped games "flop" status.

The problem I, and others, have with such a system is that it takes away from what System Wars ultimately is - the place on GS where we can freely debate, criticize, and compare games and systems. Turning System Wars into a game allows posters to dismiss serious discussion, and laying down heavy-handed rules gives cookie-cutter posters the impression that they have a "higher backing" for dismissing alternative ideas.

The second problem is that this implies that everyone in System Wars is backing a certain platform to "win" - assuming there can even be a winner. Posters such as myself, GameSpot Users Fellowship members who are dedicated to defending systems from unwarranted criticism, and what we call "manticores" (posters who support all systems equally) are feeling ostracized. System Wars is part of the Gamespot community, and an area we enjoy contributing to, in part because our view on gaming is complex, and something we'd like to share with our fellow gamers.


System Wars is not always a ruley place, and quite often it will be filled with generic hate-threads, but this is more than worth it for the free atmosphere it allows. Every day I log on, and at least once a week a thread rises to the surface that could not have come from anywhere else - something brilliant, creative, well-written, that could have come from no other board.

At worst, I'm aware that System Wars is a board essentially for containing the non-sense that would otherwise disrupt system and game specific boards, but at its best, System Wars can be a creative place, full of exciting debate, and new ideas. I'd hate to see that discussion traded out for a heavily regulated, review-score tallying game.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to communicate this to CaseyWegner - as a master mod, I believe he gets so much abuse from posters violating the Terms of Use, or simply blaming him for moderations he had nothing to do with, that when there is a legitimate concern, it gets lost in the mess of unwarranted complaints. I don't know how to convey to him that for System Wars to be a place of free discussion - that we need his help most in protecting the viewpoint of those who fight against fanboyism and narrow-minded thinking. What we need most is protection for those who believe there's something more to being the "best" system than having the best scorecard at the end of the generation.


If you believe in free speech, intelligent debate, and your right to disagree with other posters, please, post your sentiments.


So now I'm going to ask the one question that CaseyWegner *never* asked when he created the "games or sales" vote. Do you honestly believe that the winner of system wars should be determined solely by tallying GS game-review scores (giving bonuses to exclusives) ,and do you believe that this should be made into a system wars rule? Do you even believe a system war can truly be "won" - in all honesty - that a system is flat-out "best" based on a handful of unthinking statistics?

It is my firm belief that you cannot applying industrial engineering practices to the judgement of art - and I seek to hear the voices of those who are opposed to the end of free thought.


Casey has claimed a democracy here, so I leave you with a quote, a reminder of the fundamental rule of a democratic system:

"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual). "

-Ayn Rand

And a further warning

"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force. "


Good Night System Wars, I eagerly await evidence that my faith in your intellects and sense of justice is not misplaced.

I pretty much ignore stickied threads. I dont like those cooky voting threads, and I dont like any thread that's way too long because I like to read everyone's posts.

I am a wii supporter, but I consider myself fair to all the systems. The only 'game' I percieve in system wars is talking about video games and putting ignorance in its place.

GameSpot Users Fellowship members who are dedicated to defending systems from unwarranted criticism,

subrosian

System Wars is a place for free discussions. The problem is that REAL discussions get buried quickly with flamebaits and the same repetive news.

By dismissing the review scores you are basically dismissing the opinion of the editors we trust. Those reviews should only be viewed as guidelines and not as ultimate deciders. In the end YOU must decide for yourself.

The bet threads is just a way of tracking down your beliefs. You don't have to bet, but you should he held acountable if you do.

It's like this:

If I could only choose one console...how would go about doing it? is there a system to measure that? That's what we are trying to accomplish with the whole Sales vs. Games.

im new to system wars. i used to just hang out in the normal system threads. i really like the debates and arguments here. the one thing ive gotten attached to is kcpp's betting thread. its a lot of fun. its a game as well as people still voicing their opinions for their favorite games and systems. i dont like halo, so i made bets against halo, if i win i get the satisfaction of watching the halo fanboys cry and complain, but i made my bet that if i lose i made i have to write an apology to the halo fanboys. its fun.

i dont get the sales vs games thread. if its a console war. its about whos selling more games and who has the better games, and thats where the arguments of system wars comes from, and thats what i mostly see. the betting thread for me is a break from it all and to relax. i think system wars is pretty good.

if casey is the only MOD here then hes got to be a busy guy because there are like 10 times more posts in this forums than any of the others. he has to have a hard time getting rid of all the offensive things and anything else that needs to be removed. give him some credit

Personally i find SW is best used as just a place to spout outrageous unfounded ideas to and argue one side blindly until the dead horse is sufficiently beaten to the point of being unrecognizable.

But that might just be how i feel.

Wow, feels like I'm in a game (Saw, Hostel) and Casey is pulling the strings, well if you ask me, SW (The name implies) should be a place where you can't help but see one topic or thread that insults or induces you to view and post in it or read it...

This should be a place where you have to disagree with something, also as for the voting well if you don't like it, stay away from it!

I dobelieve in free speech, intelligent debate, and my right to disagree with other posters but at the same time can't we have this for the people who really want it and like to compare games and how they score here ? This would give us an updated reference list of games to look without having to type all kinds of info. I don't see it as much of a winning the war thing but more like a guide on how well the games have been doing for the time they have been out based on Gamespot's scores.

Very good thread though. I can see how some people would get upset by this so if it gets scrapped then that is ok too.

I completely agree with you.

I'm fairly new to system wars, and when i did arrive i figured it was just a place to discuss the consoles and their respective games in relation to each other. But i began to realize that system wars was more of a game in itself. People only used gamespots scores and any other reviews didn't matter at all, people placed bets on what gamespot would score a game and if said game didn't live up to the hype, it recieved a trashing and was called a flop from then on.

Perhaps this has been done to form some kind of order around here, maybe it was much more chaotic to the degree that it was just not managable.. but i believe that many more interesting and intelligent debates would come out of system wars if it wasn't set by these rules. To many times do i see people pass off games because they are "flops" or scored less then another game. People say a certain system is the best because it has a number of AAA's and AA's. Noone looks at the individual titles, brilliant games get grouped into these ridiculous categories. Hotel Dusk is an 8, even on gamerankings.. yet it is more important in the DS library then yoshi's island 2, or mario 64(two games that scored higher). Why? because its an original game, an experience you simply cannot get much of on the other systems(while mario 64 can be found on the wii's VC, and it's also a port.. and yoshi's island 2 is another side scroller.. great, but not TERRIBLY unique)and therefore that game increases the value of owning a DS! These are the kind of things that should matter when discussing a games worth, but they don't. It's black and white.

People give casey too much crap imo. You make it sound like hes some evil dictator or something. I don't think any of us would have done a better job than him if we were mods.

whatever though, I think we are at fault if we make something "official" or not. Whatever happens to the sales vs games idea, if people don't like it, they can always make a thread for everyone to vote in, and if this place becomes as bad as you think it will be, i'm sure we will do something about it. Casey doesn't say when something is official or not, we do.

As for the hype threads, I don't see whats wrong with them. The only difference from before is, if some fanboy decided to claim a game floped, he can be proven wrong/right. Before it was just a flamebait mess. Hardly the creative discussion and ideas you would think.

Anyway, just chill. If this place becomes as dull as you claim, we will do something about it. There is no "leader" of system wars.

Really good thread. Even an Ayn Rand quotation!

But you are ignoring a very important factor: Ultimately there has to be a winner. Not every game deserves equal rights, not every console deserves equal representation.

Games are defined by how well they convey a story and/or entertain the gamer, and as such, there must be some sort of official score/achievement that judges the games.

If not, then SW would dissolve completely because there would be no way to win the war; and therefore, no reason to fight at all.

I have long suggested that we switch from our unfortunate use of GS scores as the final deciding factor; but I'm not sure that Gamerankings is any better.

We must find a way of judging games fairly, and still having a winner.

I don't yet have a legitimate solution, but the answer cannot be to simply throw out all rules and let the masses argue ad infinitum over which game is best.

We must find away to judge games fairly based on that which they accomplish.

Victory through personal accomplishment is something Ayn Rand would stand behind, yes?

Really good thread. Even an Ayn Rand quotation!

But you are ignoring a very important factor: Ultimately there has to be a winner. Not every game deserves equal rights, not every console deserves equal representation.

Games are defined by how well they convey a story and/or entertain the gamer, and as such, there must be some sort of official score/achievement that judges the games.

If not, then SW would dissolve completely because there would be no way to win the war; and therefore, no reason to fight at all.

I have long suggested that we switch from our unfortunate use of GS scores as the final deciding factor; but I'm not sure that Gamerankings is any better.

We must find a way of judging games fairly, and still having a winner.

I don't yet have a legitimate solution, but the answer cannot be to simply throw out all rules and let the masses argue ad infinitum over which game is best.

We must find away to judge games fairly based on that which they accomplish.

Victory through personal accomplishment is something Ayn Rand would stand behind, yes?

jethrovegas

No, we use Gamespot's scores. Guys, there is not a gun to our head saying we need to come here. We either trust the Editor's or we don't it's as simple as that.

So now I'm going to ask the one question that CaseyWegner *never* asked when he created the "games or sales" vote. Do you honestly believe that the winner of system wars should be determined solely by tallying GS game-review scores (giving bonuses to exclusives) ,and do you believe that this should be made into a system wars rule? Do you even believe a system war can truly be "won" - in all honesty - that a system is flat-out "best" based on a handful of unthinking statistics?

subrosian

No....I don't think only GS scores should be used. Gamerankings need to be used IMO.

For the rest of the post......very thought-provoking

I understand what the TC is saying but he is going overboard with this stuff.

I mean this isn't a serious freedom of speech issue or a real issue at all really to me.

Some people want a system, some don't. For those that do they have it. Free speech allows them to have their system and you are allowed to not follow it yet still post here about your opinions and beliefs.

If mods or whoever downplay what someone says cause it's not following the "rules" on who wins then that's kind of dumb IMO. Those rules are there for those who care about them. For those who don't they can talk about sales or whatever all they want.

And the Bet thread, which I made and which Casey was asked to sticky, is just a place for fun man. You act like this is some kind of regime. Need to take some steps back. It's not AS bas as you are making it out to be.

I agree pretty much entirely with you TC. Maybe Casey will slim down on the (sometime quite ridiculous in number) stickies.jackassultima

The number of stickies is just a measure to bring down the number of new repetitive threads that come up everytime.

Everyone wants to have the "official" hype thread burying everything else.

OMG!!! I'm agreeing with Subrosian!:o That's a first. Excellent post.

I completely agree with you.

I'm fairly new to system wars, and when i did arrive i figured it was just a place to discuss the consoles and their respective games in relation to each other. But i began to realize that system wars was more of a game in itself. People only used gamespots scores and any other reviews didn't matter at all, people placed bets on what gamespot would score a game and if said game didn't live up to the hype, it recieved a trashing and was called a flop from then on.

Perhaps this has been done to form some kind of order around here, maybe it was much more chaotic to the degree that it was just not managable.. but i believe that many more interesting and intelligent debates would come out of system wars if it wasn't set by these rules. To many times do i see people pass off games because they are "flops" or scored less then another game. People say a certain system is the best because it has a number of AAA's and AA's. Noone looks at the individual titles, brilliant games get grouped into these ridiculous categories. Hotel Dusk is an 8, even on gamerankings.. yet it is more important in the DS library then yoshi's island 2, or mario 64(two games that scored higher). Why? because its an original game, an experience you simply cannot get much of on the other systems(while mario 64 can be found on the wii's VC, and it's also a port.. and yoshi's island 2 is another side scroller.. great, but not TERRIBLY unique)and therefore that game increases the value of owning a DS! These are the kind of things that should matter when discussing a games worth, but they don't. It's black and white.

blahzor

bravo! i second that.

I totally agree with you subrosian.

And this quote...

"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual). "

-Ayn Rand

subrosian

...is exactly what I was trying to explain to CaseyWegner why the whole sales vs games vote was wrong to begin with....

So thank you.

I totally agree with you subrosian.

And this quote...

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual). "

-Ayn Rand

SER69

...is exactly what I was trying to explain to CaseyWegner why the whole sales vs games vote was wrong to begin with....

So thank you.

Please explain to me how is the Game vs. Sales violating anything? Let alone your rights?

Like I said before. If you had the capability of choosing only one console, which one would it be and why? What system would you use to arrive to that conclusion? That's what we are trying to come up with.

[QUOTE="jethrovegas"]

Really good thread. Even an Ayn Rand quotation!

But you are ignoring a very important factor: Ultimately there has to be a winner. Not every game deserves equal rights, not every console deserves equal representation.

Games are defined by how well they convey a story and/or entertain the gamer, and as such, there must be some sort of official score/achievement that judges the games.

If not, then SW would dissolve completely because there would be no way to win the war; and therefore, no reason to fight at all.

I have long suggested that we switch from our unfortunate use of GS scores as the final deciding factor; but I'm not sure that Gamerankings is any better.

We must find a way of judging games fairly, and still having a winner.

I don't yet have a legitimate solution, but the answer cannot be to simply throw out all rules and let the masses argue ad infinitum over which game is best.

We must find away to judge games fairly based on that which they accomplish.

Victory through personal accomplishment is something Ayn Rand would stand behind, yes?

BlueBarad

No, we use Gamespot's scores. Guys, there is not a gun to our head saying we need to come here. We either trust the Editor's or we don't it's as simple as that.

Yes but the point is that we should be using GR as a main stream source as it counts for more than one opinion not just GS but the overall Internet gaming community as a whole.

[QUOTE="SER69"]

I totally agree with you subrosian.

And this quote...

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual). "

-Ayn Rand

BlueBarad

...is exactly what I was trying to explain to CaseyWegner why the whole sales vs games vote was wrong to begin with....

So thank you.

Please explain to me how is the Game vs. Sales violating anything? Let alone your rights?

Like I said before. If you had the capability of choosing only one console, which one would it be and why? What system would you use to arrive to that conclusion? That's what we are trying to come up with.

I know that quote is WAYYYYY overdoing it. I think there is an issue in people using these rules more and more and denying people with opinions their right to only debate based on opinion but when you talk about rights and stuff that is SERIOUS stuff and this is not in the same ballpark as to what that quote is based on

I fully second this man's words but remain highly discouraged at the possibility of any real change around here.Zeliard9

Absolutely. This is definitely one of the few posts that has rang the truest of any that I can recall reading here.

It indeed has become at times more or less a mob rules mentality around here, where closed minded fanboys rule the roost by hiding behind 'the law according to the gospel of Gamespot'....where the reality of the outside world does not/cannot apply.

This in turn leaves less room for open intelligent debate because all fanboys have to do is hide behind Gamespot scores. Which they use as a means to try and completely negate the positives of a particular system in general.

They will simply post a score, use it as ammo without taking into consideration any positives that you may present to them in order to prove a certain point about a given system because the score, and the rules is all the leverage they require according to the way things are set up here in System Wars.....the land where fanboys come to call each other fanboys, and where logic ceases to exist entirely.

That is just the way it is around here though, and as nice as it would be to have a more open minded approach to System Wars for people who support more than one system, I realize that you cannot change people. So, I just take the bad with the good, and wade through the trash in order to get to the gems....such as this particular thread.

[QUOTE="SER69"]

I totally agree with you subrosian.

And this quote...

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual). "

-Ayn Rand

BlueBarad

...is exactly what I was trying to explain to CaseyWegner why the whole sales vs games vote was wrong to begin with....

So thank you.

Please explain to me how this is violating anything? Let alone your rights?

I'm not articulated enough to explain it to you if you dont get that quote in the first place and the correlations with what happened here. Hopefully some one will be up for the task.

Absolutely. This is definitely one of the few posts that has rang the truest of any that I can recall reading here.

It indeed has become at times more or less a mob rules mentality around here, where closed minded fanboys rule the roost by hiding behind 'the law according to the gospel of Gamespot'....where the reality of the outside world does not/cannot apply.

This in turn leaves less room for open intelligent debate because all fanboys have to do is hide behind Gamespot scores. Which they use as a means to try and completely negate the positives of a particular system in general.

They will simply post a score, use it as ammo without taking into consideration any positives that you may present to them in order to prove a certain point about a given system because the score, and the rules is all the leverage they require according to the way things are set up here in System Wars.....the land where fanboys come to call each other fanboys, and where logic ceases to exist entirely.

That is just the way it is around here though, and as nice as it would be to have a more open minded approach to System Wars for people who support more than one system, I realize that you cannot change people. So, I just take the bad with the good, and wade through the trash in order to get to the gems....such as this particular thread.

Zeliard9

Its hard for the ignorant close minded person to do such a thing sadly on the other hand I'm open to all systems :D

I agree 100% with you. From what I see, with the hype threads and the sales vs games threads, I see all of that as "unfair". With the hype threads, many fanboys will make rediculous hypes for games that they think will never happen, and they have to accept those hypes. It's unfair for the people who pick reasonable hypes so that the game won't be considered bad.

For the sales vs games thread, that was just unfair by looking at it. It was just a fanboy's way of attacking the sheep. Both games and sales are important, and saying that sales don';t matter is saying that the constitution isn't important for America to strive. Now that takes an entire new route for the sheep now that the fanboys are now laughing at the sheep for losing.

System Wars should be nothing but opinion. We don't need facts here unless you need it to prove your opinion. Now you need nothing but facts or you'll be flamed for having an opinion.Does a person have a right to think what they want to think? Does a man have to take the integrities that they have to face? No. I believe in freedom of speech, and I believe that man has a right to have an opinion, and he shouldn't be critisized for it. It's just making System Wars harder to enjoy. We don't need any of these hype threads. It should only stay to opinion.

I understand what the TC is saying but he is going overboard with this stuff.

I mean this isn't a serious freedom of speech issue or a real issue at all really to me.

Some people want a system, some don't. For those that do they have it. Free speech allows them to have their system and you are allowed to not follow it yet still post here about your opinions and beliefs.

If mods or whoever downplay what someone says cause it's not following the "rules" on who wins then that's kind of dumb IMO. Those rules are there for those who care about them. For those who don't they can talk about sales or whatever all they want.

And the Bet thread, which I made and which Casey was asked to sticky, is just a place for fun man. You act like this is some kind of regime. Need to take some steps back. It's not AS bas as you are making it out to be.

kcpp2b

Pretty much what I think.

You want to know what i honestly think? i think you are reading WAY to much into this.

Who cares if the system war has a winner and a loser? At the end of the day, we all play games for fun. We come to systemwars for fun.

Why are you so concerned with your internet morals of free speech being hindered by the common conception that systemwars must be "won" ? If you want to talk about all games systems, you can do that. If you want to bash all consoles, yuo can do that.

The purpose for the stickies is so that we DO have RULEs. Without rules, this place would be a mess. if we cant decide who wins an loses, why is it called system wars? I think you're missing the "war" part of it. A lot of people mistake "systemwars" for "general games discussion". You CAN generally discuss games, but if anyone missed the sign on the way in, the term "WAR" doesnt imply that.

im sorry if i come off as popus and/or rude in this post.

edit: oh and one more thing: internet =/= serious business.

I don't get why the TC brought up the Bet thread. It's a place for users to have fun and so far it's been fun for the most part. Except for leave forever bets and TR/Leegar wimping on a bet.

I don't see why the TC wanted to talk about the Bet thread as if it's some kind of regime stickied tactic to force rules on SW.

yea i also disagree with some of the "SW rules" they have here

like "official hypes". wtf is that...

i would elaborate but i have something i have to do right now... i'll come back to this thread later

You want to know what i honestly think? i think you are reading WAY to much into this.

Who cares if the system war has a winner and a loser? At the end of the day, we all play games for fun. We come to systemwars for fun.

Why are you so concerned with your internet morals of free speech being hinder by the common conception that systemwars must be "won" ? If you want to talk about all games systems, you can do that. If you want to bash all consoles, who can do that.

The purpose for the stickies is so that we DO have RULEs. Without rules, this place would be a mess. if we cant decide who wins an loses, why is it called system wars? I think you're missing the "war" part of it. A lot of people mistake "systemwars" for "general games discussion". You CAN generally discuss games, but if anyone missed the sign on the way in, the term "WAR" doesnt imply that.

im sorry if i come off as popus and/or rude in this post.

edit: oh and one more thing: internet =/= serious business.

JPOBS

The purpose for the stickies is so that we DO have RULEs. Without rules, this place would be a mess. if we cant decide who wins an loses, why is it called system wars? I think you're missing the "war" part of it. A lot of people mistake "systemwars" for "general games discussion". You CAN generally discuss games, but if anyone missed the sign on the way in, the term "WAR" doesnt imply that.

JPOBS

Very true. Was gonna mention this too. Don't think people get if they had no rating flop system here this place would just be pure insanity with people arguing or debating and fighting a fight that will never end. Atleast with some kind of rules in place there is a conclusion and some kind of route to an ending. Either a game flops or not.

I have so many issues, I'm tired of talking about them. I mostly agree with the OP/TC. I feel like everything is too focued. Too much direction, for lack of better words. And seemingly a bit too much moderator steering at times. Idunno. I'm tired of even thinking about it (because I do daily). There is little room to breathe here at times.

It's not what it used to be. That's for damn sure. Maybe it's a function of all the new faces; maybe it's a function of the old faces being permabanned or moving onto greener pastures. Idunno. But it's hard to like what SW is/is becoming. I--for one--am not a fan. Been discontent for awhile.

But I like many of the posters here, so I come back for them.

I have so many issues, I'm tired of talking about them. I mostly agree with the OP/TC. I feel like everything is too focued. Too much direction, for lack of better words. And seemingly a bit too much moderator steering at times. Idunno. I'm tired of even thinking about it (because I do daily). There is little room to breathe here at times.

It's not what it used to be. That's for damn sure. Maybe it's a function of all the new faces; maybe it's a function of the old faces being permabanned or moving onto greener pastures. Idunno. But it's hard to like what SW is/is becoming. I--for one--am not a fan. Been discontent for awhile.

But I like many of the posters here, so I come back for them.

Dreams-Visions

I have so many issues, I'm tired of talking about them. I mostly agree with the OP/TC. I feel like everything is too focued. Too much direction, for lack of better words. And seemingly a bit too much moderator steering at times. Idunno. I'm tired of even thinking about it (because I do daily). There is little room to breathe here at times.

It's not what it used to be. That's for damn sure. Maybe it's a function of all the new faces; maybe it's a function of the old faces being permabanned or moving onto greener pastures. Idunno. But it's hard to like what SW is/is becoming. I--for one--am not a fan. Been discontent for awhile.

But I like many of the posters here, so I come back for them.

Dreams-Visions

Agreed. Imo, this place isn't what it is because we don't have yo_foo, keywii, twinblade and a bunch of others that left. Since they left it's always bin like this, not to say we don't have epic threads from time to time. But so far, the "official" hype thread worked out well. The only thing we had before that was "lol this game floped" x100 in one day.

Can't comment on the sales/games thing yet, but like I said before, if it doesn't work out, i'm sure we will ignore it. This isn't a country were a government rules this place. This place is run by everyone here. Thats the way I see it at least.

[QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]

I have so many issues, I'm tired of talking about them. I mostly agree with the OP/TC. I feel like everything is too focued. Too much direction, for lack of better words. And seemingly a bit too much moderator steering at times. Idunno. I'm tired of even thinking about it (because I do daily). There is little room to breathe here at times.

It's not what it used to be. That's for damn sure. Maybe it's a function of all the new faces; maybe it's a function of the old faces being permabanned or moving onto greener pastures. Idunno. But it's hard to like what SW is/is becoming. I--for one--am not a fan. Been discontent for awhile.

But I like many of the posters here, so I come back for them.

astiop

Agreed. Imo, this place isn't what it is because we don't have yo_foo, keywii, twinblade and a bunch of others that left. Since they left it's always bin like this, not to say we don't have epic threads from time to time. But so far, the "official" hype thread worked out well. The only thing we had before that was "lol this game floped" x100 in one day.

Can't comment on the sales/games thing yet, but like I said before, if it doesn't work out, i'm sure we will ignore it. This isn't a country were a government rules this place. This place is run by everyone here. Thats the way I see it at least.

[QUOTE="ironcreed"]

Absolutely. This is definitely one of the few posts that has rang the truest of any that I can recall reading here.

It indeed has become at times more or less a mob rules mentality around here, where closed minded fanboys rule the roost by hiding behind 'the law according to the gospel of Gamespot'....where the reality of the outside world does not/cannot apply.

This in turn leaves less room for open intelligent debate because all fanboys have to do is hide behind Gamespot scores. Which they use as a means to try and completely negate the positives of a particular system in general.

They will simply post a score, use it as ammo without taking into consideration any positives that you may present to them in order to prove a certain point about a given system because the score, and the rules is all the leverage they require according to the way things are set up here in System Wars.....the land where fanboys come to call each other fanboys, and where logic ceases to exist entirely.

That is just the way it is around here though, and as nice as it would be to have a more open minded approach to System Wars for people who support more than one system, I realize that you cannot change people. So, I just take the bad with the good, and wade through the trash in order to get to the gems....such as this particular thread.

shadow_702

Its hard for the ignorant close minded person to do such a thing sadly on the other hand I'm open to all systems :D

Indeed it is sad, and even though I agree with what Subrosian said completely, this place is here just for fun. Although, I understand that what he is basically saying is that there needs to be more open, intelligent discussion around here without it being dominated so much by fanboys using he rules to their advantage.

By the way....that is my post you quoted there, not Zeliard9's, lol. (check your original post)

I know what CaseyWegner trying to do for System Wars. The "keep it here" hype threads, the stickied bet thread, the "sales or games" - he's making System Wars into a game. He has people vote on the rules for the game, people make a wager (either a bet, or simply a hype), and the winner is determined by the "voted on" scoring method. My theory was confirmed when he sticked a thread containing a history of the hyped games "flop" status.

The problem I, and others, have with such a system is that it takes away from what System Wars ultimately is - the place on GS where we can freely debate, criticize, and compare games and systems. Turning System Wars into a game allows posters to dismiss serious discussion, and laying down heavy-handed rules gives cookie-cutter posters the impression that they have a "higher backing" for dismissing alternative ideas.

The second problem is that this implies that everyone in System Wars is backing a certain platform to "win" - assuming there can even be a winner. Posters such as myself, GameSpot Users Fellowship members who are dedicated to defending systems from unwarranted criticism, and what we call "manticores" (posters who support all systems equally) are feeling ostracized. System Wars is part of the Gamespot community, and an area we enjoy contributing to, in part because our view on gaming is complex, and something we'd like to share with our fellow gamers.


System Wars is not always a ruley place, and quite often it will be filled with generic hate-threads, but this is more than worth it for the free atmosphere it allows. Every day I log on, and at least once a week a thread rises to the surface that could not have come from anywhere else - something brilliant, creative, well-written, that could have come from no other board.

At worst, I'm aware that System Wars is a board essentially for containing the non-sense that would otherwise disrupt system and game specific boards, but at its best, System Wars can be a creative place, full of exciting debate, and new ideas. I'd hate to see that discussion traded out for a heavily regulated, review-score tallying game.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to communicate this to CaseyWegner - as a master mod, I believe he gets so much abuse from posters violating the Terms of Use, or simply blaming him for moderations he had nothing to do with, that when there is a legitimate concern, it gets lost in the mess of unwarranted complaints. I don't know how to convey to him that for System Wars to be a place of free discussion - that we need his help most in protecting the viewpoint of those who fight against fanboyism and narrow-minded thinking. What we need most is protection for those who believe there's something more to being the "best" system than having the best scorecard at the end of the generation.


If you believe in free speech, intelligent debate, and your right to disagree with other posters, please, post your sentiments.


So now I'm going to ask the one question that CaseyWegner *never* asked when he created the "games or sales" vote. Do you honestly believe that the winner of system wars should be determined solely by tallying GS game-review scores (giving bonuses to exclusives) ,and do you believe that this should be made into a system wars rule? Do you even believe a system war can truly be "won" - in all honesty - that a system is flat-out "best" based on a handful of unthinking statistics?

It is my firm belief that you cannot applying industrial engineering practices to the judgement of art - and I seek to hear the voices of those who are opposed to the end of free thought.


Casey has claimed a democracy here, so I leave you with a quote, a reminder of the fundamental rule of a democratic system:

"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual). "

-Ayn Rand

And a further warning

"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force. "


Good Night System Wars, I eagerly await evidence that my faith in your intellects and sense of justice is not misplaced.

subrosian

I totally agree. I said something about this in one of the stickied "rules", "hype" or "games vs sales" threads.

I wish they'd get rid of Casey. Nothing personal against the guy, I just don't like how he does things at all.

Some of the things I've been modded for are absolutely hilarious. Some of the things other people get away with are astonishing. Some of the rules he makes up are baffling. But hey, it's "official", so what can I say.