Defining the War - an Open Letter to SW

Those posters weren't that old. I think he meants the much older posters.Panzer_Zwei

Well, I miss those guys :P Tbh, I only started reading theese boards about 2 years ago, so I don't know any big posters that got banned before that. I just remember that whenever one of those guys made a thread (and gingerdivid when he became a sheep), we use to have huuuge threads.

I have so many issues, I'm tired of talking about them. I mostly agree with the OP/TC. I feel like everything is too focued. Too much direction, for lack of better words. And seemingly a bit too much moderator steering at times. Idunno. I'm tired of even thinking about it (because I do daily). There is little room to breathe here at times.

It's not what it used to be. That's for damn sure. Maybe it's a function of all the new faces; maybe it's a function of the old faces being permabanned or moving onto greener pastures. Idunno. But it's hard to like what SW is/is becoming. I--for one--am not a fan. Been discontent for awhile.

But I like many of the posters here, so I come back for them.

Dreams-Visions

I agree. I sometimes and not even sure what to say anymore cause so much of the rules here in terms of TOS is up to the Mods discretion. I mean I haven't been here long so I can't talk about like Dreams can but I easily notice a difference here every month that goes by in terms of the tightening of rules and the more and more pressure you feel of not being able to speak openly.

One example for me is the whole flaming thing. I think it's a little too far. To the point that you in the future if you say something like "You're crazy dude" they'll mod you for implying someone is crazy. I mean that IS the direction it is heading.

I think the mods and admin won't hear this cause they think it's just whining but there are valid complaints that should be listened to. Nothing is perfect and void of complaints

I have a better picture on how SW is run. Casey Wagner is Bill O' Riley and SW is Fox News Channel.

I like using games, because with sales the PC will automatically win, not even close. If you say "you can track PC", well then you shouldn't be able to use it in arguments either-Like why not to buy a 360. I know thats never going to happen so I only see games scores being the only true measure of a systems success. For all the people complaining about it, are you that worried your particular favorite system will not get quality games? If you use games and the PC's library gets rest to when the 360 came out, then someone other than the PC has a chance to win.Heil68

I think PC's being included in SW is the most ridiculous thing in the history of this place.

[QUOTE="Heil68"]I like using games, because with sales the PC will automatically win, not even close. If you say "you can track PC", well then you shouldn't be able to use it in arguments either-Like why not to buy a 360. I know thats never going to happen so I only see games scores being the only true measure of a systems success. For all the people complaining about it, are you that worried your particular favorite system will not get quality games? If you use games and the PC's library gets rest to when the 360 came out, then someone other than the PC has a chance to win.D_Znuhtz

I think PC's being included in SW is the most ridiculous thing in the history of this place.

I totally disagree. PC is just important as any other gaming system, in fact, wasn't for PC console wouldn't be where it is today.

I have a better picture on how SW is run. Casey Wagner is Bill O' Riley and SW is Fox News Channel.

James_Lipton

I like Casey and he knows it...but for some reason that picture in my mind has me cracking up. lol

I fully agree with what you have stated. This is exactly why SW is not fun anymore,one cannot enjoy him/herself because to do so would clash with the 'rules' of the board.Dualshockin

Best sig in the history of the intranetz.

People give casey too much crap imo. You make it sound like hes some evil dictator or something. I don't think any of us would have done a better job than him if we were mods.

whatever though, I think we are at fault if we make something "official" or not. Whatever happens to the sales vs games idea, if people don't like it, they can always make a thread for everyone to vote in, and if this place becomes as bad as you think it will be, i'm sure we will do something about it. Casey doesn't say when something is official or not, we do.

As for the hype threads, I don't see whats wrong with them. The only difference from before is, if some fanboy decided to claim a game floped, he can be proven wrong/right. Before it was just a flamebait mess. Hardly the creative discussion and ideas you would think.

Anyway, just chill. If this place becomes as dull as you claim, we will do something about it. There is no "leader" of system wars.

astiop

Making a thread with a poll for every bloody opinion you have is what we have the problem with, it's turning SW into a game. It's stupid. I see why Casey is doing it. He wants there to be less threads about one particular thing, arguments can be solved with "WELL DURR SW RULES, OFFICIAL OFFICIAL BLAH BLAH" so they won't run on for 14 pages, he wants to make his job a little easier. Fair enough, but it won't change anything. People will find new things to post about. SW is an active forum, and by nature it's ugly and violent. As the old cliche goes, "if you can't stand the heat, GTFO n00b".

Prematurely ending all arguments with some "official" decree seems to go against the whole spirit of SW.

[QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]

I have so many issues, I'm tired of talking about them. I mostly agree with the OP/TC. I feel like everything is too focued. Too much direction, for lack of better words. And seemingly a bit too much moderator steering at times. Idunno. I'm tired of even thinking about it (because I do daily). There is little room to breathe here at times.

It's not what it used to be. That's for damn sure. Maybe it's a function of all the new faces; maybe it's a function of the old faces being permabanned or moving onto greener pastures. Idunno. But it's hard to like what SW is/is becoming. I--for one--am not a fan. Been discontent for awhile.

But I like many of the posters here, so I come back for them.

kcpp2b

I agree. I sometimes and not even sure what to say anymore cause so much of the rules here in terms of TOS is up to the Mods discretion. I mean I haven't been here long so I can't talk about like Dreams can but I easily notice a difference here every month that goes by in terms of the tightening of rules and the more and more pressure you feel of not being able to speak openly.

One example for me is the whole flaming thing. I think it's a little too far. To the point that you in the future if you say something like "You're crazy dude" they'll mod you for implying someone is crazy. I mean that IS the direction it is heading.

I think the mods and admin won't hear this cause they think it's just whining but there are valid complaints that should be listened to. Nothing is perfect and void of complaints

I agree. These issues are obvious to everyone. Especially those who post abroad at other fine web forums. I often log in and feel like I'm stepping up on a chair and putting a tight noose around my neck...and wondering who's going to be the one who kicks away the chair. Makes it tough to have fun when you're constantly worried.

...and Heli68. i love you too, you ugly monkey! Someone hand me a bukket. :P

the only thing i dislike about systemwars is when people acknowledge posters such as yo_foo and keywii. i dont like it when a poster becomes "infamous" to the point where he's considered a legend. That to me, is disrespect to the real "legends" who've accually contributed to making this place better. JPOBS

Making a thread with a poll for every bloody opinion you have is what we have the problem with, it's turning SW into a game. It's stupid. I see why Casey is doing it. He wants there to be less threads about one particular thing, arguments can be solved with "WELL DURR SW RULES, OFFICIAL OFFICIAL BLAH BLAH" so they won't run on for 14 pages, he wants to make his job a little easier. Fair enough, but it won't change anything. People will find new things to post about. SW is an active forum, and by nature it's ugly and violent. As the old cliche goes, "if you can't stand the heat, GTFO n00b".

Prematurely ending all arguments with some "official" decree seems to go against the whole spirit of SW.

D_Znuhtz

What I meant was, I don't think we are going to let system wars become worse because of an "official rule" that WE pretty much decided to be official. If we make it official and it doesn't turn out well, we can unmake it just the same. So far this has not happened though, and I don't think previous "official rules" (the hype thread basicaly) had any effect in making this place worse.

Time will tell.

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]the only thing i dislike about systemwars is when people acknowledge posters such as yo_foo and keywii. i dont like it when a poster becomes "infamous" to the point where he's considered a legend. That to me, is disrespect to the real "legends" who've accually contributed to making this place better. Panzer_Zwei

I totally agree with this. I think we should make a rule where new people should not speak AT ALL. Everyone knows people with new accounts were born yesterday...

...and Heli68. i love you too, you ugly monkey! Someone hand me a bukket. :P

Dreams-Visions

thats my job :p

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]the only thing i dislike about systemwars is when people acknowledge posters such as yo_foo and keywii. i dont like it when a poster becomes "infamous" to the point where he's considered a legend. That to me, is disrespect to the real "legends" who've accually contributed to making this place better. Panzer_Zwei

I can get on board with that. But the reality is the majority rules and creates the climate. Old heads are few and far between...so our influence is only so great.

We're like the grandparents trying to tell the kids how to behave. Didn't work for my grandparents on me, so...

[QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]

...and Heli68. i love you too, you ugly monkey! Someone hand me a bukket. :P

astiop

thats my job :p

Thank you. I needed that. So much. :D :lol:

I fully agree with what you have stated. This is exactly why SW is not fun anymore,one cannot enjoy him/herself because to do so would clash with the 'rules' of the board.Dualshockin

"Making wars just for fun"
-War Pigs, Black Sabbath.

Making a thread with a poll for every bloody opinion you have is what we have the problem with, it's turning SW into a game. It's stupid. I see why Casey is doing it. He wants there to be less threads about one particular thing, arguments can be solved with "WELL DURR SW RULES, OFFICIAL OFFICIAL BLAH BLAH" so they won't run on for 14 pages, he wants to make his job a little easier. Fair enough, but it won't change anything. People will find new things to post about. SW is an active forum, and by nature it's ugly and violent. As the old cliche goes, "if you can't stand the heat, GTFO n00b".

Prematurely ending all arguments with some "official" decree seems to go against the whole spirit of SW.

D_Znuhtz

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]the only thing i dislike about systemwars is when people acknowledge posters such as yo_foo and keywii. i dont like it when a poster becomes "infamous" to the point where he's considered a legend. That to me, is disrespect to the real "legends" who've accually contributed to making this place better. Panzer_Zwei

[QUOTE="D_Znuhtz"]

[QUOTE="Heil68"]I like using games, because with sales the PC will automatically win, not even close. If you say "you can track PC", well then you shouldn't be able to use it in arguments either-Like why not to buy a 360. I know thats never going to happen so I only see games scores being the only true measure of a systems success. For all the people complaining about it, are you that worried your particular favorite system will not get quality games? If you use games and the PC's library gets rest to when the 360 came out, then someone other than the PC has a chance to win.James_Lipton

I think PC's being included in SW is the most ridiculous thing in the history of this place.

I totally disagree. PC is just important as any other gaming system, in fact, wasn't for PC console wouldn't be where it is today.

Here's the rub though, buddy: the PC isn't a gaming system. It plays games, but it's not a gaming system. Neither is my iPod, or my TI-83 calculator from Texas Instruments. Don't accuse me of bias either, I own a sweet gaming PC, I just don't think it has any business being included in SW.

While we're on the subject, someone explain to me why cows/sheep/lemmings are all linked to their respective companies, not their consoles. Sony = Cows, Nintendo = Sheep, Microsoft = Lemming. Every "hermit" that plays games is using a Microsoft platform to play their games. Technically they are lemmings. Follow your own rules. Is Windows a Microsoft platform, or isn't it? If it's a gaming platform, and Microsoft owns it, there shouldn't be any exceptions made for it.

[QUOTE="James_Lipton"][QUOTE="D_Znuhtz"]

[QUOTE="Heil68"]I like using games, because with sales the PC will automatically win, not even close. If you say "you can track PC", well then you shouldn't be able to use it in arguments either-Like why not to buy a 360. I know thats never going to happen so I only see games scores being the only true measure of a systems success. For all the people complaining about it, are you that worried your particular favorite system will not get quality games? If you use games and the PC's library gets rest to when the 360 came out, then someone other than the PC has a chance to win.D_Znuhtz

I think PC's being included in SW is the most ridiculous thing in the history of this place.

I totally disagree. PC is just important as any other gaming system, in fact, wasn't for PC console wouldn't be where it is today.

Here's the rub though, buddy: the PC isn't a gaming system. It plays games, but it's not a gaming system. Neither is my iPod, or my TI-83 calculator from Texas Instruments. Don't accuse me of bias either, I own a sweet gaming PC, I just don't think it has any business being included in SW.

Damn man...I thought I was the only one that felt that way. And I've been a PC gamer since '89...and passionate since '92. In my heart, I'll never see it as a gaming system; rather, a machine that can also play games. Some (maybe many) disagree. but it's just how I feel in my heart.

Don't need any suporters on this one. Me and D_Znuhtz can be on an island together and I'm oaky with that on this one.

This has been going on for a while, but now it's just ludicrous. When we're trying to officialize an argument's invalidness through a poll...

I think SW is close to bursting.

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"][QUOTE="JPOBS"]the only thing i dislike about systemwars is when people acknowledge posters such as yo_foo and keywii. i dont like it when a poster becomes "infamous" to the point where he's considered a legend. That to me, is disrespect to the real "legends" who've accually contributed to making this place better. Dreams-Visions

I can get on board with that. But the reality is the majority rules and creates the climate. Old heads are few and far between...so our influence is only so great.

We're like the grandparents trying to tell the kids how to behave. Didn't work for my grandparents on me, so...

Don't need any suporters on this one. Me and D_Znuhtz can be on an island together and I'm oaky with that on this one.Dreams-Visions

You're right. You on a island with man eating shark surrounding you. Also an outbreak of crabs is on the island. :|

[QUOTE="astiop"][QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]

...and Heli68. i love you too, you ugly monkey! Someone hand me a bukket. :P

Dreams-Visions

thats my job :p

Thank you. I needed that. So much. :D :lol:

..

:P

[QUOTE="D_Znuhtz"][QUOTE="James_Lipton"][QUOTE="D_Znuhtz"]

[QUOTE="Heil68"]I like using games, because with sales the PC will automatically win, not even close. If you say "you can track PC", well then you shouldn't be able to use it in arguments either-Like why not to buy a 360. I know thats never going to happen so I only see games scores being the only true measure of a systems success. For all the people complaining about it, are you that worried your particular favorite system will not get quality games? If you use games and the PC's library gets rest to when the 360 came out, then someone other than the PC has a chance to win.Dreams-Visions

I think PC's being included in SW is the most ridiculous thing in the history of this place.

I totally disagree. PC is just important as any other gaming system, in fact, wasn't for PC console wouldn't be where it is today.

Here's the rub though, buddy: the PC isn't a gaming system. It plays games, but it's not a gaming system. Neither is my iPod, or my TI-83 calculator from Texas Instruments. Don't accuse me of bias either, I own a sweet gaming PC, I just don't think it has any business being included in SW.

Damn man...I thought I was the only one that felt that way. And I've been a PC gamer since '89...and passionate since '92. In my heart, I'll never see it as a gaming system; rather, a machine that can also play games. Some (maybe many) disagree. but it's just how I feel in my heart.

Don't need any suporters on this one. Me and D_Znuhtz can be on an island together and I'm oaky with that on this one.

I agree too... PC's can play games but it isn't a gaming system. It's a machine that CAN play games if you wish it to. Just like Gaming consoles. Or atleast PS3 and Wii can be used as computers for browsing the net but we don't call them Computers now do we?

This has been going on for a while, but now it's just ludicrous. When we're trying to officialize an argument's invalidness through a poll...

I think SW is close to bursting.

Tsug_Ze_Wind

I agree too... PC's can play games but it isn't a gaming system. It's a machine that CAN play games if you wish it to. Just like Gaming consoles. Or atleast PS3 and Wii can be used as computers for browsing the net but we don't call them Computers now do we?

kcpp2b

Don't want to be bearer of bad news, but saying or suggestion PC is not part of the SW is consider "flaming" may want to delete your post.

This has been going on for a while, but now it's just ludicrous. When we're trying to officialize an argument's invalidness through a poll...

I think SW is close to bursting.

Tsug_Ze_Wind

Truth. Short and sweet truth. How about trying to place either sales vs. game scores at a higher level of importance thread...through a vote? All I could do was shake my head.

[QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

This has been going on for a while, but now it's just ludicrous. When we're trying to officialize an argument's invalidness through a poll...

I think SW is close to bursting.

Grodus5

[QUOTE="kcpp2b"]I agree too... PC's can play games but it isn't a gaming system. It's a machine that CAN play games if you wish it to. Just like Gaming consoles. Or atleast PS3 and Wii can be used as computers for browsing the net but we don't call them Computers now do we?

James_Lipton

Don't want to be bearer of bad news, but saying or suggestion PC is not part of the SW is consider "flaming" may want to delete your post.

I never said it wasn't a part of it... the games on PC are IMO. Obviously.... but not the PC's itself. Because the VAST majority of them are used for non gaming things. Plus no one company makes and sells PC's. In terms of Hardware it can't be compared...but in software ofcourse.

[QUOTE="Grodus5"][QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

This has been going on for a while, but now it's just ludicrous. When we're trying to officialize an argument's invalidness through a poll...

I think SW is close to bursting.

JPOBS

before reading this, i was a firm believer that pc's should be apart of the system war. mostly due to casey's "propaganda." BUT NOW I SEE THE LIGHT!!! :PSilenthps

I love your sig. I see it sparking up a new Union. May I suggest the union be called "The James Lipton Click"?

before reading this, i was a firm believer that pc's should be apart of the system war. mostly due to casey's "propaganda." BUT NOW I SEE THE LIGHT!!! :PSilenthps

Normally I'm onboard with subrasian's posts, but this one I have to disagree with him on this one.

Also, for those that are claiming that a PC is not a gaming system, you're treading into dangerous territory. Not just in terms of possibily being modded, but you're getting into the discussion of an opinion about the primary use of an item, one which you can't win. If you can say that the primary use of a PC is to do other things (and that it can play games as a side bonus), then the 360 is a DVD player, the PS3 is a Blu-Ray player, and the Wii is a paperweight. Those are the primary uses of those various systems to me. They just have the extra ability to play games.

[QUOTE="kcpp2b"]I agree too... PC's can play games but it isn't a gaming system. It's a machine that CAN play games if you wish it to. Just like Gaming consoles. Or atleast PS3 and Wii can be used as computers for browsing the net but we don't call them Computers now do we?

James_Lipton

Don't want to be bearer of bad news, but saying or suggestion PC is not part of the SW is consider "flaming" may want to delete your post.

But we know he's not. We *know* it. That's where the human element should come in. That's the kind of thing that frustrates me here. Someone would report that and he'd get moderated for it. But look at the post, you know? who does it harm? Who feels violated? Who is he being harsh to?

I love the people here, and that's what I know. The rest can fly a kite, IMO. Not coming at you at all; rather the reality of the state of this place I like to call home when I'm not working and hanging with my friends.

[QUOTE="kcpp2b"]I agree too... PC's can play games but it isn't a gaming system. It's a machine that CAN play games if you wish it to. Just like Gaming consoles. Or atleast PS3 and Wii can be used as computers for browsing the net but we don't call them Computers now do we?

James_Lipton

Don't want to be bearer of bad news, but saying or suggestion PC is not part of the SW is consider "flaming" may want to delete your post.

That's the whole problem. Once something is voted in as "official" you can't have a differing opinion, or it's flaming or trolling, and can be moderated. Gestapo tactics, and it's crushing the spirit of what is essentially a debate forum. You can make official threads until you're blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that I will never view the PC in the same light as a console. Same goes for the games vs sales thread. It was slanted from the start, and the question boiled down to: which do you think is more important? Obviously the resounding answer is games. Guess what, though? Games don't mean squat to the rest of the world. Sales is all that matters. If the PS3 and 360 are dead and gone in 5 years and everyone in the free world owns a Wii, do you think people are going to say "yeah that PS3 and 360, they were the kings!"

All those threads do is ask: do we want real-world, logical rules, or system wars ridiculousness rules? The whole notion of taking a fair vote in a place thats dominated by one faction (I don't need to name names, you know who it is) is ludicrous as well. You might as well be taking a poll to see whether there are more lems/sheep/cows, because that's what it amounts to. Whichever faction wins, they are the most populous, so we play by their rules and everyone else can suck it. That isn't democracy, it's hostile takeover.

Dreams: I eagerly await our time on said island. I shall bring my volleyball. His name is Wilson.

I am a cuddler, but I have been known to scream and thrash about, harming myself or others.

You want to know what i honestly think? i think you are reading WAY to much into this.

Who cares if the system war has a winner and a loser? At the end of the day, we all play games for fun. We come to systemwars for fun.

Why are you so concerned with your internet morals of free speech being hindered by the common conception that systemwars must be "won" ? If you want to talk about all games systems, you can do that. If you want to bash all consoles, yuo can do that.

The purpose for the stickies is so that we DO have RULEs. Without rules, this place would be a mess. if we cant decide who wins an loses, why is it called system wars? I think you're missing the "war" part of it. A lot of people mistake "systemwars" for "general games discussion". You CAN generally discuss games, but if anyone missed the sign on the way in, the term "WAR" doesnt imply that.

im sorry if i come off as popus and/or rude in this post.

edit: oh and one more thing: internet =/= serious business.

JPOBS

I agree.

See you there, D. I'll bring the coconuts and cute girls.

I love you guys. Just wish things were a little different is all. Don't mean anyone any harm and I'd like to think people know that.

Normally I'm onboard with subrasian's posts, but this one I have to disagree with him on this one.

Also, for those that are claiming that a PC is not a gaming system, you're treading into dangerous territory. Not just in terms of possibily being modded, but you're getting into the discussion of an opinion about the primary use of an item, one which you can't win. If you can say that the primary use of a PC is to do other things (and that it can play games as a side bonus), then the 360 is a DVD player, the PS3 is a Blu-Ray player, and the Wii is a paperweight. Those are the primary uses of those various systems to me. They just have the extra ability to play games.

Vampyronight

I think the PC is not a gaming system. It's a system that can do many things most of which it is used for are things thatare not gaming. It is a system that CAN be used for gaming. Just like the xbox360 is not a MP3 player but a system that CAN be used to play MP3's.

IMO..again MY OPINION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think when you say something is a gaming system then it must be a gaming system first.

Although I also am not saying get rid of PC from SW's I never said that. I just don't think it shoud be compared to the consoles in terms of hardware cause no one company is gaining on the profit of PC sales.... many many companies make PC's where as only one makes each of the three consoles.

[QUOTE="James_Lipton"][QUOTE="kcpp2b"]I agree too... PC's can play games but it isn't a gaming system. It's a machine that CAN play games if you wish it to. Just like Gaming consoles. Or atleast PS3 and Wii can be used as computers for browsing the net but we don't call them Computers now do we?

Dreams-Visions

Don't want to be bearer of bad news, but saying or suggestion PC is not part of the SW is consider "flaming" may want to delete your post.

But we know he's not. We *know* it. That's where the human element should come in. That's the kind of thing that frustrates me here. Someone would report that and he'd get moderated for it. But look at the post, you know? who does it harm? Who feels violated? Who is he being harsh to?

I love the people here, and that's what I know. The rest can fly a kite, IMO. Not coming at you at all; rather the reality of the state of this place I like to call home when I'm not working and hanging with my friends.

Your words are a blindly, brilliant light from heaven. I couldn't agree with you more. I just feel like this place is so stricted. I always want to help another person by warninghe's walking on being modded.

[QUOTE="James_Lipton"][QUOTE="kcpp2b"]I agree too... PC's can play games but it isn't a gaming system. It's a machine that CAN play games if you wish it to. Just like Gaming consoles. Or atleast PS3 and Wii can be used as computers for browsing the net but we don't call them Computers now do we?

Dreams-Visions

Don't want to be bearer of bad news, but saying or suggestion PC is not part of the SW is consider "flaming" may want to delete your post.

But we know he's not. We *know* it. That's where the human element should come in. That's the kind of thing that frustrates me here. Someone would report that and he'd get moderated for it. But look at the post, you know? who does it harm? Who feels violated? Who is he being harsh to?

I love the people here, and that's what I know. The rest can fly a kite, IMO. Not coming at you at all; rather the reality of the state of this place I like to call home when I'm not working and hanging with my friends.

I don't even know what is wrong with what I said which is why this place becomes less fun for me. Which is why I'm mostly just in SW bets now cause I don't know what I can and can't say anymore.

I just gave my opinions. I didn't bash anyone or anything and ...whatever

See you there, D. I'll bring the coconuts and cute girls.

I love you guys. Just wish things were a little different is all. Don't mean anyone any harm and I'd like to think people know that.

Dreams-Visions

And we're just having a nice debate here. I think a very good one too. It's not harsh or bashing it's just people debating and discussing. I hope they Sticky this to encourage this discussion rather than discourage it

[QUOTE="JPOBS"][QUOTE="Grodus5"][QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

This has been going on for a while, but now it's just ludicrous. When we're trying to officialize an argument's invalidness through a poll...

I think SW is close to bursting.

Grodus5

It's funny how people are complaing about SW being "steered" into a certain direction that is not representative of the real world.

We ONLY USE GS Scores for crying out loud! How ridiculous is it that the whole premise of hypes, flops, "game-library greatness" is determined by the opinion of one person.

This is the most ridiculous part of SW yet most people seem to have no problem with it.

[QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]

See you there, D. I'll bring the coconuts and cute girls.

I love you guys. Just wish things were a little different is all. Don't mean anyone any harm and I'd like to think people know that.

kcpp2b

And we're just having a nice debate here. I think a very good one too. It's not harsh or bashing it's just people debating and discussing. I hope they Sticky this to encourage this discussion rather than discourage it

Agreed.