This topic is locked from further discussion.
great answer. according to logic methods, to invalidate an argument you must first show that there are errors, and then provide a new/different view/solution.
SambaLele
Maybe Casey was wrong in taking a majority vote. Maybe he should have had a debate.
But Sub is doing a fine job of the invalidading the argument without helping with the solution.
[QUOTE="kcpp2b"]I understand what the TC is saying but he is going overboard with this stuff.
I mean this isn't a serious freedom of speech issue or a real issue at all really to me.
Some people want a system, some don't. For those that do they have it. Free speech allows them to have their system and you are allowed to not follow it yet still post here about your opinions and beliefs.
If mods or whoever downplay what someone says cause it's not following the "rules" on who wins then that's kind of dumb IMO. Those rules are there for those who care about them. For those who don't they can talk about sales or whatever all they want.
And the Bet thread, which I made and which Casey was asked to sticky, is just a place for fun man. You act like this is some kind of regime. Need to take some steps back. It's not AS bas as you are making it out to be.
-Renegade
i made this the war is over and casey locked it instantly andthe next day the sales vs games thread was made coincidence?
it was a thread that completely neglected the PC. its system wars not console wars. Thats why he did it, games has made the PC mentioned alot more lately.[QUOTE="SER69"]I totally agree with you subrosian.
And this quote...
[QUOTE="subrosian"]
"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual). "-Ayn Rand
BlueBarad
...is exactly what I was trying to explain to CaseyWegner why the whole sales vs games vote was wrong to begin with....
So thank you.
Please explain to me how is the Game vs. Sales violating anything? Let alone your rights?
Like I said before. If you had the capability of choosing only one console, which one would it be and why? What system would you use to arrive to that conclusion? That's what we are trying to come up with.
alot of lemmings were saying saying games because they thought 360 would win this way but no matter how you voted pc would win.. just because 360 has the most AAA and AA out of the big 3 doesn't mean it is automatically the winner because not everyone will like all the games that the 360 has to offer no matter what they score...
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]This forum is not for free discussion. This forum is owned by gamespot. They have the ultimate say in what happens here and the rules change. It is their property and they have a definate say in what goes on in their forum. If someone came into your house and began using your stuff what would you do? It's the same thing.
-RPGamer-
In the same instance, this isn't a great analogy for a house, it's more like a store. They want people and traffic to come here, they want users.
Alright a store...I work at Canadian tire. One of the store policies is that shoppers must leave their backpacks at the service desk. There have been quite a few shop lifting incidents lately and that is the reason why. If they refuse they are not allowed in the store. Same thing.
Yeah. The sticky that talks about Sales vs Games was just too wrong.
Those are very debatable and should not be decided what's better by the majority of votes.
Sales drive developers to make games for the popular system. But games drive people to buy the system. There are to many variables when you are dealing withsales versus games.
It's like graphics versus gameplay. Most people would say gameplay>graphicsbut that doesn't make sense because if there are no graphics there is no gameplay.
[QUOTE="-Renegade"][QUOTE="kcpp2b"]I understand what the TC is saying but he is going overboard with this stuff.
I mean this isn't a serious freedom of speech issue or a real issue at all really to me.
Some people want a system, some don't. For those that do they have it. Free speech allows them to have their system and you are allowed to not follow it yet still post here about your opinions and beliefs.
If mods or whoever downplay what someone says cause it's not following the "rules" on who wins then that's kind of dumb IMO. Those rules are there for those who care about them. For those who don't they can talk about sales or whatever all they want.
And the Bet thread, which I made and which Casey was asked to sticky, is just a place for fun man. You act like this is some kind of regime. Need to take some steps back. It's not AS bas as you are making it out to be.
jg4xchamp
i made this the war is over and casey locked it instantly andthe next day the sales vs games thread was made coincidence?
it was a thread that completely neglected the PC. its system wars not console wars. Thats why he did it, games has made the PC mentioned alot more lately.well if we could actually track gaming pc sales then maybe i would have included the pc..
[QUOTE="BlueBarad"][QUOTE="SER69"]I totally agree with you subrosian.
And this quote...
[QUOTE="subrosian"]
"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual). "-Ayn Rand
-Renegade
...is exactly what I was trying to explain to CaseyWegner why the whole sales vs games vote was wrong to begin with....
So thank you.
Please explain to me how is the Game vs. Sales violating anything? Let alone your rights?
Like I said before. If you had the capability of choosing only one console, which one would it be and why? What system would you use to arrive to that conclusion? That's what we are trying to come up with.
alot of lemmings were saying saying games because they thought 360 would win this way but no matter how you voted pc would win.. just because 360 has the most AAA and AA out of the big 3 doesn't mean it is automatically the winner because not everyone will like all the games that the 360 has to offer no matter what they score...
but the wii outselling the other 2 console makes it the better system. I dont think that should be true either. IS madden suddenly way better than god of war, mario platformers, zelda, smash bros, kotor, etc.alot of lemmings were saying saying games because they thought 360 would win this way but no matter how you voted pc would win.. just because 360 has the most AAA and AA out of the big 3 doesn't mean it is automatically the winner because not everyone will like all the games that the 360 has to offer no matter what they score...
-Renegade
Lol, this is not about who is winning now. This is about HOW DO WE DECIDE THE WINNER?
Which system won last generation and why? Even that is up for grabs, some say the PC won, some say the PS2 won.
We are trying to herd a bunch of cats here. It is a tough job, a real tough one, but we will get there.
The best analogy I could come up with is this: If you could only pick one system and 10 games to go on a deserted island and play them forever, which one would it be?
Same with movies, if you were on death row and were allowed to watch one last movie which would it be?
The WHY is the real tricky part.
we get so official hype threads, official bet threads, official whatever threads, that there isn't much else to do other than bash, since their isn't much speculation right now. The new E3 killed speculation. :( :( :(grapefruit21
The official thread are there to stop the MASSES of repetitive threads that pop up. I understand some people don't like posting on the Nth page of a thread and they wanna start a new one. Don't....
[QUOTE="D_Znuhtz"]That's the whole problem. Once something is voted in as "official" you can't have a differing opinion, or it's flaming or trolling, and can be moderated.
CaseyWegner
what are you talking about? there are zero rules like that. rules that when broken lead to moderation are not voted on. the ones that are voted on are just system wars culture rules...guidelines.
[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="-Renegade"][QUOTE="kcpp2b"]I understand what the TC is saying but he is going overboard with this stuff.
I mean this isn't a serious freedom of speech issue or a real issue at all really to me.
Some people want a system, some don't. For those that do they have it. Free speech allows them to have their system and you are allowed to not follow it yet still post here about your opinions and beliefs.
If mods or whoever downplay what someone says cause it's not following the "rules" on who wins then that's kind of dumb IMO. Those rules are there for those who care about them. For those who don't they can talk about sales or whatever all they want.
And the Bet thread, which I made and which Casey was asked to sticky, is just a place for fun man. You act like this is some kind of regime. Need to take some steps back. It's not AS bas as you are making it out to be.
-Renegade
i made this the war is over and casey locked it instantly andthe next day the sales vs games thread was made coincidence?
it was a thread that completely neglected the PC. its system wars not console wars. Thats why he did it, games has made the PC mentioned alot more lately.well if we could actually track gaming pc sales then maybe i would have included the pc..
exactly why he mentioned games as a possible alternative. Its a 4 way battle on this forum, nobody should be trying to change that to begin with. And sales shouldnt judge a debate on System Wars. console sales only effect who won the business side of things. Lets talk about quality of the games, not theamount of systems sold.[QUOTE="grapefruit21"]we get so official hype threads, official bet threads, official whatever threads, that there isn't much else to do other than bash, since their isn't much speculation right now. The new E3 killed speculation. :( :( :(BlueBarad
The official thread are there to stop the MASSES of repetitive threads that pop up. I understand some people don't like posting on the Nth page of a thread and they wanna start a new one. Don't....
I understand that but with official threads for every thing its no wonder so many threads are crap.[QUOTE="-Renegade"]...is exactly what I was trying to explain to CaseyWegner why the whole sales vs games vote was wrong to begin with....
So thank you.
jg4xchamp
Please explain to me how is the Game vs. Sales violating anything? Let alone your rights?
Like I said before. If you had the capability of choosing only one console, which one would it be and why? What system would you use to arrive to that conclusion? That's what we are trying to come up with.
alot of lemmings were saying saying games because they thought 360 would win this way but no matter how you voted pc would win.. just because 360 has the most AAA and AA out of the big 3 doesn't mean it is automatically the winner because not everyone will like all the games that the 360 has to offer no matter what they score...
but the wii outselling the other 2 console makes it the better system. I dont think that should be true either. IS madden suddenly way better than god of war, mario platformers, zelda, smash bros, kotor, etc.just look at ds it didn't get as nearly as much third party support now as it did when it first launched.. but with it's extraordinary sales the third party support picked up like crazy and now it gets a *** of games released every month.
[QUOTE="-Renegade"]alot of lemmings were saying saying games because they thought 360 would win this way but no matter how you voted pc would win.. just because 360 has the most AAA and AA out of the big 3 doesn't mean it is automatically the winner because not everyone will like all the games that the 360 has to offer no matter what they score...
BlueBarad
Lol, this is not about who is winning now. This is about HOW DO WE DECIDE THE WINNER?
Which system won last generation and why? Even that is up for grabs, some say the PC won, some say the PS2 won.
We are trying to herd a bunch of cats here. It is a tough job, a real tough one, but we will get there.
The best analogy I could come up with is this: If you could only pick one system and 10 games to go on a deserted island and play them forever, which one would it be?
Same with movies, if you were on death row and were allowed to watch one last movie which would it be?
The WHY is the real tricky part.
there was just no point to it because pc wins and pc will always win unless developers stop supporting which more then likely won't happen.
[QUOTE="CaseyWegner"][QUOTE="D_Znuhtz"]That's the whole problem. Once something is voted in as "official" you can't have a differing opinion, or it's flaming or trolling, and can be moderated.
subrosian
what are you talking about? there are zero rules like that. rules that when broken lead to moderation are not voted on. the ones that are voted on are just system wars culture rules...guidelines.
and that's what i don't understand.. how can you not seperate pc from consoles if there is no way of tracking gaming pc sales...
[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="-Renegade"]...is exactly what I was trying to explain to CaseyWegner why the whole sales vs games vote was wrong to begin with....
So thank you.
-Renegade
Please explain to me how is the Game vs. Sales violating anything? Let alone your rights?
Like I said before. If you had the capability of choosing only one console, which one would it be and why? What system would you use to arrive to that conclusion? That's what we are trying to come up with.
alot of lemmings were saying saying games because they thought 360 would win this way but no matter how you voted pc would win.. just because 360 has the most AAA and AA out of the big 3 doesn't mean it is automatically the winner because not everyone will like all the games that the 360 has to offer no matter what they score...
but the wii outselling the other 2 console makes it the better system. I dont think that should be true either. IS madden suddenly way better than god of war, mario platformers, zelda, smash bros, kotor, etc.just look at ds it didn't get as nearly as much third party support now as it did when it first launched.. but with it's extraordinary sales the third party support picked up like crazy and now it gets a *** of games released every month.
ok and look at the wii, the third party support is meh. the 360 launched and was selling meh but got some great third party support to help it sell a bit better. PS3 has third party suppor and sells like garbage and still gets third party support. its more than just sales. Software sales matter as well. 360 is going to always get games because it sells so many. The wii and PS3 dont even do it on the same level as 360.[QUOTE="BlueBarad"][QUOTE="-Renegade"]alot of lemmings were saying saying games because they thought 360 would win this way but no matter how you voted pc would win.. just because 360 has the most AAA and AA out of the big 3 doesn't mean it is automatically the winner because not everyone will like all the games that the 360 has to offer no matter what they score...
-Renegade
Lol, this is not about who is winning now. This is about HOW DO WE DECIDE THE WINNER?
Which system won last generation and why? Even that is up for grabs, some say the PC won, some say the PS2 won.
We are trying to herd a bunch of cats here. It is a tough job, a real tough one, but we will get there.
The best analogy I could come up with is this: If you could only pick one system and 10 games to go on a deserted island and play them forever, which one would it be?
Same with movies, if you were on death row and were allowed to watch one last movie which would it be?
The WHY is the real tricky part.
there was just no point to it because pc wins and pc will always win unless developers stop supporting which more then likely won't happen.
PC wins sales as well. THey buy more games based on the previous NPD reports, they have more gamers based on that article as well.
[QUOTE="CaseyWegner"][QUOTE="D_Znuhtz"]That's the whole problem. Once something is voted in as "official" you can't have a differing opinion, or it's flaming or trolling, and can be moderated.
subrosian
what are you talking about? there are zero rules like that. rules that when broken lead to moderation are not voted on. the ones that are voted on are just system wars culture rules...guidelines.
that was nothing new.
[QUOTE="-Renegade"][QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] it was a thread that completely neglected the PC. its system wars not console wars. Thats why he did it, games has made the PC mentioned alot more lately.
Also why should sales judge quality. SHouldnt the quality games judge that. spiderman 3 sold more than a clas-sic like goodfellas ever did.
But lets be honest. Goodfellas is leagues ahead of Spiderman 3 in movie quality.jg4xchamp
well if we could actually track gaming pc sales then maybe i would have included the pc..
exactly why he mentioned games as a possible alternative. Its a 4 way battle on this forum, nobody should be trying to change that to begin with. And sales shouldnt judge a debate on System Wars. console sales only effect who won the business side of things. Lets talk about quality of the games, not theamount of systems sold.the thing is pc users don't have to battle anyone because they will get games no matter what... but with consoles if your console isn't selling good luck with getting a constant stream of triple a titles.. i am sorry but you can't have one without the other... your console can't win a generation if it looses in overall sales it's been that way since the begging of rival of the console battles since the super nintendo vs genesis.. if the mods didn't make the thread then we wouldn't be having this discussion...
and that's what i don't understand.. how can you not seperate pc from consoles if there is no way of tracking gaming pc sales...
-Renegade
*cough* go by games *cough*
[QUOTE="-Renegade"]and that's what i don't understand.. how can you not seperate pc from consoles if there is no way of tracking gaming pc sales...
CaseyWegner
*cough* go by games *cough*
I voted sales.
I think GR And Ign scores should also be valid on this board but its futile to ask
[QUOTE="kcpp2b"]I understand what the TC is saying but he is going overboard with this stuff.
I mean this isn't a serious freedom of speech issue or a real issue at all really to me.
Some people want a system, some don't. For those that do they have it. Free speech allows them to have their system and you are allowed to not follow it yet still post here about your opinions and beliefs.
If mods or whoever downplay what someone says cause it's not following the "rules" on who wins then that's kind of dumb IMO. Those rules are there for those who care about them. For those who don't they can talk about sales or whatever all they want.
And the Bet thread, which I made and which Casey was asked to sticky, is just a place for fun man. You act like this is some kind of regime. Need to take some steps back. It's not AS bas as you are making it out to be.
-Renegade
i made this the war is over and casey locked it instantly andthe next day the sales vs games thread was made coincidence?
what makes you think i locked it?
I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
PC should be considered, but not to the point where it can be a winner. I mean, that's why they don't like to use Citizen Kane when people debate about the best movie of all time.
Also, as I've said from the moment I started reading the games vs sales, neither works out. sales is a poor way to decide what is best, and using games is just going to limit us to GS's reviewer's opinions, not ours. And we are the deciding factor here, not them.
Lastly, taking games vs sales to a vote doesn't work either. How many rabbid fanboys do you see on here everyday? Honestly, it always seems like the majority has a bias against at least 1 system. If we took a votefrom modern day teenagers, which is the better song: Ridin' Dirty or Beethoven's Fifth, which is probably going to win? But we all know which is the true masterpiece.
I personally don't think System Wars was broken, so why try to fix it? We adoped, on our own, a way to debate games and sales, and which console was the winner, and it worked well enough to keep people coming back day after day. Why do we need a mod to come in and tell us by an "official" vote, what is going to make a system a clear winner?
I think GR And Ign scores should also be valid on this board but its futile to ask
AgentA-Mi6
Like I said, we either trust the editor's and their opinion or we don't. Simple as that. There are a lot of trully biased reviews out there and I trust CNET to be a beacon of impartialness among them. Maybe I am being Naive, but that's how it is.
[QUOTE="-Renegade"]and that's what i don't understand.. how can you not seperate pc from consoles if there is no way of tracking gaming pc sales...
CaseyWegner
*cough* go by games *cough*
but games arent even standardised on the PC, all games arereviewed on max, but what about that large portion of PC gamers that cant play all games on max. I think it really is just to dificult to compare something standard to something with 100's of variants.
but the wii outselling the other 2 console makes it the better system. I dont think that should be true either. IS madden suddenly way better than god of war, mario platformers, zelda, smash bros, kotor, etc.
The problem with sales is things such as brand recoginition, casual interest, etc.
This website is full of gamers part of the niche market. and that market is more effected by the greater games.ok and look at the wii, the third party support is meh. the 360 launched and was selling meh but got some great third party support to help it sell a bit better. PS3 has third party suppor and sells like garbage and still gets third party support. its more than just sales. Software sales matter as well. 360 is going to always get games because it sells so many. The wii and PS3 dont even do it on the same level as 360.
and how does that take away the fact that, we are measuring systems by what they sold to and not the quality of the games on the system. The system with the best games should win. Also before people say Nintendo might not win overall games, it can still win exclusives. They are still the best 1st party around. there 3 main franchises that launched this year(TP, Super Paper Mario, and Metroid Prime 3) each scored AA here, while TP and MEtroid are AAA on metacritic and gamerankings. With Warioware AAA here and AA everywhere else. If im not mistaken exclusives play a big role in this overall debate as well. And they should.
Im sorry but this forum is about the niche market of hardcore gamers who care about the games. i see no problem with that.
my problem is that we judge games by just one persons opinion and not the opinion of many critics. jg4xchamp
dude wii hasn't even been out a year yet... you think developers are just going to ignore the wii when it's selling over 1 million consoles per month??
are we forgetting ps3 is the sucessor of two of the most popular gaming consoles of alltime?psone and ps2 both of which have sold over 100 million consoles?? where is the logic in your post?
yeah 360 will always have games because ms pockets are deep but will it get the major support that 360 and wii get from japan? no because it sales like **** over there :lol: sales = games sales = games i never said that games don't matter but without the sales you won't win becasue you can't get the games on your system.. i am just going by the facts it's always been that way why should it change now.
It's funny how people are complaing about SW being "steered" into a certain direction that is not representative of the real world.
We ONLY USE GS Scores for crying out loud! How ridiculous is it that the whole premise of hypes, flops, "game-library greatness" is determined by the opinion of one person.
This is the most ridiculous part of SW yet most people seem to have no problem with it.
MikeE21286
[QUOTE="AgentA-Mi6"]I think GR And Ign scores should also be valid on this board but its futile to ask
BlueBarad
Like I said, we either trust the editor's and their opinion or we don't. Simple as that. There are a lot of trully biased reviews out there and I trust CNET to be a beacon of impartialness among them. Maybe I am being Naive, but that's how it is.
My most trusted website is IGN ,I trust their reviews more than all other sites combined
Its weird I looked on the Site Enhancement board and somebody asked why there wasn't a Console War board (a question that occurs to many) and the Admin Dracula68 says and I quote:
"The PC isn't in the same group as consoles. All you asked was why there are no forums dedicated to consoles wars and there is. It is called System Wars."
It gets old hearing Hermits declare ownage because their library extends backwards until the early 80's, their hardware is constantly upgradeable, and there is no licensing fees for making PC games so the variety and sheer number of games is much higher yet you never hear anyone list off all the "flops"when quite frankly the vast majority of PC games are garbage. ThePC isn'tanything like the consoles.
I'm sure if Gamespot came up with a Console Wars in addition to System Wars it would be a huge success and the debate would be quite sterling. :)There seems to be a disconnect between what this Admin is saying and what we are told here in System Wars.
I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
PC should be considered, but not to the point where it can be a winner. I mean, that's why they don't like to use Citizen Kane when people debate about the best movie of all time.
Also, as I've said from the moment I started reading the games vs sales, neither works out. sales is a poor way to decide what is best, and using games is just going to limit us to GS's reviewer's opinions, not ours. And we are the deciding factor here, not them.
Lastly, taking games vs sales to a vote doesn't work either. How many rabbid fanboys do you see on here everyday? Honestly, it always seems like the majority has a bias against at least 1 system. If we took a votefrom modern day teenagers, which is the better song: Ridin' Dirty or Beethoven's Fifth, which is probably going to win? But we all know which is the true masterpiece.
I personally don't think System Wars was broken, so why try to fix it? We adoped, on our own, a way to debate games and sales, and which console was the winner, and it worked well enough to keep people coming back day after day. Why do we need a mod to come in and tell us by an "official" vote, what is going to make a system a clear winner?
TimeToPartyHard
Because we keep debating the same things over and over again. It's like a car stuck on deep mud, the more you accelate the deeper you go. Casey is trying to bring some consensus into the mix, something that will further discussions.
Else 3 years from now we will still be debating the same topics.
It's like this:
Madden 60 FPS on the 360 and 30 on the PS3. Which one runs higher? No question about that.
PS3 vs. Wii which system is better? We have no clue because we don't have a system we can ALL AGREE UPON.
Its weird I looked on the Site Enhancement board and somebody asked why there wasn't a Console War board (a question that occurs to many) and the Admin Dracula68 says and I quote:
"The PC isn't in the same group as consoles. All you asked was why there are no forums dedicated to consoles wars and there is. It is called System Wars."
It gets old hearing Hermits declare ownage because their library extends backwards until the early 80's, their hardware is constantly upgradeable, and there is no licensing fees for making PC games so the variety and sheer number of games is much higher yet you never hear anyone list off all the "flops"when quite frankly the vast majority of PC games are garbage. ThePC isn'tanything like the consoles.
I'm sure if Gamespot came up with a Console Wars in addition to System Wars it would be a huge success and the debate would be quite sterling. :)There seems to be a disconnect between what this Admin is saying and what we are told here in System Wars.
JiveT
well, the community manager says that the pc is part of system wars.
[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="-Renegade"][QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] it was a thread that completely neglected the PC. its system wars not console wars. Thats why he did it, games has made the PC mentioned alot more lately.
Also why should sales judge quality. SHouldnt the quality games judge that. spiderman 3 sold more than a clas-sic like goodfellas ever did.
But lets be honest. Goodfellas is leagues ahead of Spiderman 3 in movie quality.-Renegade
well if we could actually track gaming pc sales then maybe i would have included the pc..
exactly why he mentioned games as a possible alternative. Its a 4 way battle on this forum, nobody should be trying to change that to begin with. And sales shouldnt judge a debate on System Wars. console sales only effect who won the business side of things. Lets talk about quality of the games, not theamount of systems sold.the thing is pc users don't have to battle anyone because they will get games no matter what... but with consoles if your console isn't selling good luck with getting a constant stream of triple a titles.. i am sorry but you can't have one without the other... your console can't win a generation if it looses in overall sales it's been that way since the begging of rival of the console battles since the super nintendo vs genesis.. if the mods didn't make the thread then we wouldn't be having this discussion...
well then sales will effect games right. then shut up about it. wait it out, and watch if the PS3 outsells the 360 then the games will show it. People need to understand that no matter what sales will effect the games anyway why not let it be a legit debate about games and leave the sales threads out of this. Also since we argue exclusives more the 360, PS3 and Wii have a very good chance. Sales shouldnt measure the quality of the system as much as the game. not now, not ever. do they effect the games in the future yes. but they dont change the quality of a system. games do. Plaine and simple.[QUOTE="BlueBarad"][QUOTE="AgentA-Mi6"]I think GR And Ign scores should also be valid on this board but its futile to ask
AgentA-Mi6
Like I said, we either trust the editor's and their opinion or we don't. Simple as that. There are a lot of trully biased reviews out there and I trust CNET to be a beacon of impartialness among them. Maybe I am being Naive, but that's how it is.
My most trusted website is IGN ,I trust their reviews more than all other sites combined
Good for you sir. Why not hang there instead?
[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]but the wii outselling the other 2 console makes it the better system. I dont think that should be true either. IS madden suddenly way better than god of war, mario platformers, zelda, smash bros, kotor, etc.
The problem with sales is things such as brand recoginition, casual interest, etc.
This website is full of gamers part of the niche market. and that market is more effected by the greater games.ok and look at the wii, the third party support is meh. the 360 launched and was selling meh but got some great third party support to help it sell a bit better. PS3 has third party suppor and sells like garbage and still gets third party support. its more than just sales. Software sales matter as well. 360 is going to always get games because it sells so many. The wii and PS3 dont even do it on the same level as 360.
and how does that take away the fact that, we are measuring systems by what they sold to and not the quality of the games on the system. The system with the best games should win. Also before people say Nintendo might not win overall games, it can still win exclusives. They are still the best 1st party around. there 3 main franchises that launched this year(TP, Super Paper Mario, and Metroid Prime 3) each scored AA here, while TP and MEtroid are AAA on metacritic and gamerankings. With Warioware AAA here and AA everywhere else. If im not mistaken exclusives play a big role in this overall debate as well. And they should.
Im sorry but this forum is about the niche market of hardcore gamers who care about the games. i see no problem with that.
my problem is that we judge games by just one persons opinion and not the opinion of many critics. -Renegade
dude wii hasn't even been out a year yet... you think developers are just going to ignore the wii when it's selling over 1 million consoles per month??
are we forgetting ps3 is the sucessor of two of the most popular gaming consoles of alltime?psone and ps2 both of which have sold over 100 million consoles?? where is the logic in your post?
yeah 360 will always have games because ms pockets are deep but will it get the major support that 360 and wii get from japan? no because it sales like **** over there :lol: sales = games sales = games i never said that games don't matter but without the sales you won't win becasue you can't get the games on your system.. i am just going by the facts it's always been that way why should it change now.
but we argue quality not which is the bigger financial success. You cant measure quality with sales. u can measure games. My anology of Goodfellas versus Spiderman 3. SPiderman 3 sells to more because of casuals, spiderman fans, kids, comic book geeks,etc.[QUOTE="TimeToPartyHard"]I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
PC should be considered, but not to the point where it can be a winner. I mean, that's why they don't like to use Citizen Kane when people debate about the best movie of all time.
Also, as I've said from the moment I started reading the games vs sales, neither works out. sales is a poor way to decide what is best, and using games is just going to limit us to GS's reviewer's opinions, not ours. And we are the deciding factor here, not them.
Lastly, taking games vs sales to a vote doesn't work either. How many rabbid fanboys do you see on here everyday? Honestly, it always seems like the majority has a bias against at least 1 system. If we took a votefrom modern day teenagers, which is the better song: Ridin' Dirty or Beethoven's Fifth, which is probably going to win? But we all know which is the true masterpiece.
I personally don't think System Wars was broken, so why try to fix it? We adoped, on our own, a way to debate games and sales, and which console was the winner, and it worked well enough to keep people coming back day after day. Why do we need a mod to come in and tell us by an "official" vote, what is going to make a system a clear winner?
BlueBarad
Because we keep debating the same things over and over again. It's like a car stuck on deep mud, the more you accelate the deeper you go. Casey is trying to bring some consensus into the mix, something that will further discussions.
Else 3 years from now we will still be debating the same topics.
It's like this:
Madden 60 FPS on the 360 and 30 on the PS3. Which one runs higher? No question about that.
PS3 vs. Wii which system is better? We have no clue because we don't have a system we can ALL AGREE UPON.
Then shouldn't we use sales? It's a concrete and could never be argued. Even the GS score can be argued against because it's 1 person's opinion, and there isn't a person on any of these forums that would want 1 person deciding what is good or bad for them. Of course, sales is flawed just as much. So how can anyone decide what we all should be using when both are just as flawed as the other, yet both have their merits?
I guess I just don't see a need to fix something that has worked for so long, even if we do repeat ourselves. There will never be any standard here in System Wars that, even the majority, willaccept. We need mods to make sure we don't break the TOS, but we don't need them to tell us what is good and bad, or how to go about deciding it.
[QUOTE="AgentA-Mi6"]I think GR And Ign scores should also be valid on this board but its futile to ask
BlueBarad
Like I said, we either trust the editor's and their opinion or we don't. Simple as that. There are a lot of trully biased reviews out there and I trust CNET to be a beacon of impartialness among them. Maybe I am being Naive, but that's how it is.
thats tupid as well. We should use the opinions of many critics. or maybe set our own standard of 10 critics we want and average those 10 scores. i dont know, but this whole gamespot scores are law are also stupid for a debate. we are debating something that doesnt measure an overall quality. it measures the quality of a game in 1 specific persons eyes.[QUOTE="BlueBarad"][QUOTE="AgentA-Mi6"]I think GR And Ign scores should also be valid on this board but its futile to ask
jg4xchamp
Like I said, we either trust the editor's and their opinion or we don't. Simple as that. There are a lot of trully biased reviews out there and I trust CNET to be a beacon of impartialness among them. Maybe I am being Naive, but that's how it is.
thats tupid as well. We should use the opinions of many critics. or maybe set our own standard of 10 critics we want and average those 10 scores. i dont know, but this whole gamespot scores are law are also stupid for a debate. we are debating something that doesnt measure an overall quality. it measures the quality of a game in 1 specific persons eyes.I totally agree. In a debate that started saying that sales isn't a measure of quality, we're supposed to only accept 1 opinion of quality.
I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
PC should be considered, but not to the point where it can be a winner. I mean, that's why they don't like to use Citizen Kane when people debate about the best movie of all time.
Also, as I've said from the moment I started reading sales vs. games....neither works out. Sales is apoor way to decide whats best,and using games is just going to limit usto GS's reviewer's opinions, not ours.And we are the deciding factor here, not them.
Lastly, taking games vs. sales to avote does not work either.How many rabid fanboys do you see on here everyday that would surelyvote?Honestly, it seems like the majority has abias against at least one system.If we took a vote from modern day teenagers on which is the better song:'Ridin Dirty' or 'Beethovens Fitfth', which is probably going to win here? Even though we all know which one is the real masterpiece.
I personally don't think System Wars was broken, so why try to fix it? We adoped, on our own, a way to debate games and sales, and which console was the winner, and it worked well enough to keep people coming back day after day. Why do we need a mod to come in and tell us by an "official" vote, what is going to make a system a clear winner?
TimeToPartyHard
Bravo....that about sums up how I feel about this in it's entirety. Although, I do think the mods are necessary as far as keeping out the trash, but there are limits to how far that authorirty should be thrown around. Far too often I see an open minded individual merely making a point get attacked by some pompus fanboy, and then whenever that individual merely calls the flame throwing fanboy out....guess who gets banned?
Indeed, with polls, and vote systems on games vs. sales ect put up on the board for fanboys with 10 accounts to have a field day with, it is only going to incite, and fuel the rabid fanboyism even more....thereby making the mods jobs of keeping out the trash even harder, lol. Kind of like Bush wanting to send more troops to Iraq, even though the longer we are over there....the worse things are going to get. Fanboys being the terrorists of course, lmao.
[QUOTE="-Renegade"][QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]but the wii outselling the other 2 console makes it the better system. I dont think that should be true either. IS madden suddenly way better than god of war, mario platformers, zelda, smash bros, kotor, etc.
The problem with sales is things such as brand recoginition, casual interest, etc.
This website is full of gamers part of the niche market. and that market is more effected by the greater games.ok and look at the wii, the third party support is meh. the 360 launched and was selling meh but got some great third party support to help it sell a bit better. PS3 has third party suppor and sells like garbage and still gets third party support. its more than just sales. Software sales matter as well. 360 is going to always get games because it sells so many. The wii and PS3 dont even do it on the same level as 360.
and how does that take away the fact that, we are measuring systems by what they sold to and not the quality of the games on the system. The system with the best games should win. Also before people say Nintendo might not win overall games, it can still win exclusives. They are still the best 1st party around. there 3 main franchises that launched this year(TP, Super Paper Mario, and Metroid Prime 3) each scored AA here, while TP and MEtroid are AAA on metacritic and gamerankings. With Warioware AAA here and AA everywhere else. If im not mistaken exclusives play a big role in this overall debate as well. And they should.
Im sorry but this forum is about the niche market of hardcore gamers who care about the games. i see no problem with that.
my problem is that we judge games by just one persons opinion and not the opinion of many critics. jg4xchamp
dude wii hasn't even been out a year yet... you think developers are just going to ignore the wii when it's selling over 1 million consoles per month??
are we forgetting ps3 is the sucessor of two of the most popular gaming consoles of alltime?psone and ps2 both of which have sold over 100 million consoles?? where is the logic in your post?
yeah 360 will always have games because ms pockets are deep but will it get the major support that 360 and wii get from japan? no because it sales like **** over there :lol: sales = games sales = games i never said that games don't matter but without the sales you won't win becasue you can't get the games on your system.. i am just going by the facts it's always been that way why should it change now.
but we argue quality not which is the bigger financial success. You cant measure quality with sales. u can measure games. My anology of Goodfellas versus Spiderman 3. SPiderman 3 sells to more because of casuals, spiderman fans, kids, comic book geeks,etc.IYO. reviews are nothing more then opinions why should we be forced to base winners off somenes opinion?
Then shouldn't we use sales? It's a concrete and could never be argued. Even the GS score can be argued against because it's 1 person's opinion, and there isn't a person on any of these forums that would want 1 person deciding what is good or bad for them. Of course, sales is flawed just as much. So how can anyone decide what we all should be using when both are just as flawed as the other, yet both have their merits?
I guess I just don't see a need to fix something that has worked for so long, even if we do repeat ourselves. There will never be any standard here in System Wars that, even the majority, willaccept. We need mods to make sure we don't break the TOS, but we don't need them to tell us what is good and bad, or how to go about deciding it.
TimeToPartyHard
Sales is not a matter of quality. Britney Spears and McDonalds are NOT good. Even though you can't argue with them.
While I agree with you that the Mods job is to make sure we don't break the TOS, Casey is just trying define the war. In a way that we can all agree upon. Maybe you should suggest a system that takes sales into consideration.
[QUOTE="JiveT"]Its weird I looked on the Site Enhancement board and somebody asked why there wasn't a Console War board (a question that occurs to many) and the Admin Dracula68 says and I quote:
"The PC isn't in the same group as consoles. All you asked was why there are no forums dedicated to consoles wars and there is. It is called System Wars."
It gets old hearing Hermits declare ownage because their library extends backwards until the early 80's, their hardware is constantly upgradeable, and there is no licensing fees for making PC games so the variety and sheer number of games is much higher yet you never hear anyone list off all the "flops"when quite frankly the vast majority of PC games are garbage. ThePC isn'tanything like the consoles.
I'm sure if Gamespot came up with a Console Wars in addition to System Wars it would be a huge success and the debate would be quite sterling. :)There seems to be a disconnect between what this Admin is saying and what we are told here in System Wars.
CaseyWegner
well, the community manager says that the pc is part of system wars.
[QUOTE="TimeToPartyHard"]Then shouldn't we use sales? It's a concrete and could never be argued. Even the GS score can be argued against because it's 1 person's opinion, and there isn't a person on any of these forums that would want 1 person deciding what is good or bad for them. Of course, sales is flawed just as much. So how can anyone decide what we all should be using when both are just as flawed as the other, yet both have their merits?
I guess I just don't see a need to fix something that has worked for so long, even if we do repeat ourselves. There will never be any standard here in System Wars that, even the majority, willaccept. We need mods to make sure we don't break the TOS, but we don't need them to tell us what is good and bad, or how to go about deciding it.
BlueBarad
Sales is not a matter of quality. Britney Spears and McDonalds are NOT good. Even though you can't argue with them.
While I agree with you that the Mods job is to make sure we don't break the TOS, Casey is just trying define the war. In a way that we can all agree upon. Maybe you should suggest a system that takes sales into consideration.
Even if I could come up with an algorithm that could show a clear winner of system wars, I wouldn't use it. If there was a clear winner it would take all the fun out of system wars. I understand what Casey is trying to do. If I had to moderate a lot of the crap on here day after day, I may want to make a way so that there is really no debate. But he took the job, with all it's pros and cons. Just because he's tired of dealing with it doesn't mean it's going to stop, or even that it should.
The problem with defining the war in a way we can all agree upon is simply that we all won't agree on it. A vote here in system wars will not truly show what we'd want, as a whole. Say even51% of the users agree, we're ultimately screwing the other 49%. Not only that, multiple accounts, human error, bias, and so on would have to be taken into account. And the users here, backing the establishment of a standard, or what have you, have the option of not posting in that single thread they don't agree with or ignoring a certain member. If a standard is made, no one can evade it. No one forces the users here to post in a thread that they think is stupid or pointless, there are often times many other worth while posts here.
Wow actually reading through the sales vs games thread I'm a little bit upset to say the least :| I mean I love the 360 but that thread is obvious biasness against the Wii.
Wow actually reading through the sales vs games thread I'm a little bit upset to say the least :| I mean I love the 360 but that thread is obvious biasness against the Wii.
shadow_702
I always hate to bring bias into it, and I won't say that it is the reason, but it's odd that sales don't matter just as soon as the Wii overtakes the 360 in sales not even a year into it's release. Again, please let me stress that I don't think the intent is biased, but it may have had some influence on the voting.
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