Defining the War - an Open Letter to SW

[QUOTE="shadow_702"]

Wow actually reading through the sales vs games thread I'm a little bit upset to say the least :| I mean I love the 360 but that thread is obvious biasness against the Wii.

TimeToPartyHard

I always hate to bring bias into it, and I won't say that it is the reason, but it's odd that sales don't matter just as soon as the Wii overtakes the 360 in sales not even a year into it's release. Again, please let me stress that I don't think the intent is biased, but it may have had some influence on the voting.

No I don't think that was the intent either but lets just say the unnecessaryingredient somehow got mixed into the soup.

[QUOTE="TimeToPartyHard"][QUOTE="shadow_702"]

Wow actually reading through the sales vs games thread I'm a little bit upset to say the least :| I mean I love the 360 but that thread is obvious biasness against the Wii.

shadow_702

I always hate to bring bias into it, and I won't say that it is the reason, but it's odd that sales don't matter just as soon as the Wii overtakes the 360 in sales not even a year into it's release. Again, please let me stress that I don't think the intent is biased, but it may have had some influence on the voting.

No I don't think that was the intent either but lets just say the unnecessaryingredient somehow got mixed into the soup.

And in SW bias does rear it's ugly head often. I really hate to even think of it since a good number of people did vote, but it certainly could have some effect especially since a greatly favored console lost it's #1 (technically #2) spot to a technically inferior console, but still has a lead in, and the potential to, beat every console with higher rated games.

Bear with me here, guys. Maybe we could separate and judge games by their respective genres, rather than comparing all genres against one another based on either sales or scores alone. That way we could more easily define which games are the best in their respective genres by comparing all shooters from all platforms together, comparing all RPG's from all platforms together...and so on.

Then from there, we could use the Gamespot score as the standard, because we are on Gamespot of course. But then take the Gamespot score, average it out with other major reviews like Gamerankings does. Then, at the end of each quarter, we average out the scores for each genre, combine the averaged scores from each genre,then apply it to a final score for each platform and see where each one stands.

We of course could do this for the rest of the gen, then average out the quarterly or yearly averages for each genre combined to determine an overall winner. This is about as fair and accurate of a way to determine the winner that I can personally think of. What do you guys think?

The reason things like the 'sales vs. games' thread were created was to create standards for the board. The point of this is to cut down on topics that aren't really substantial ("Sales are important!" "No, games are important!" etc.) and focus on the topics that do matter. It's a reasonable and important aim.

The worry, though, is that those standards dominate the discussion, when generally things can't be broken down that simply. "Most AAAEs = Best" tends to simplify things too much. If more nuanced views can be shut down by simply invoking these standards, the standards suffocate debate.

I guess the important question is why standards for something like "sales vs. games" exists. Do we go to these boards to determine a winner for greatest console? Do we go to these boards to laugh at ignorant fanboys? Or do we go to these boards for constructive and interesting debate about the state of the game industry?

People come here for a number of different reasons, I'm sure, but I'm not sure if having a standard metric to determine who 'wins' and who 'loses' necessarily works towards the best interests of the board.

Subrosian I completely agree, however because of tha anonymity of the interent I don't see how we would be able to keep SW as an open debate without having to deal with all kinds of whining and complaining of minute details between the various fanboys. I think that was Casey's goal in turning SW into a "game", to try and kill the various "OMG game x flopped!" threads and the like which just boil down toa couple of users pointlessly arguing until one of them gets bored or is suspended. The problem with your idea is that in order for it to work we would have to eliminate most (if not all) of the biased, fanboy drivel that has been filling SW more and more. Because of the immaturity of a seemingly growing number of users here I don't see how your idea of a perfect SW could work.

A good example of this is that Metroid Prime 3 review. Despite the facts that support MP3 as being a great game (as well as 8.5 being a great score) we were flooded by waves of various threads bashing MP3 or damage controlling for it.And while every once in a while a user would come up with an intelligent post explaining why MP3 is a great game and why AA is a great score, it would go largely ignored, or various fanboys would post something along the lines of "damage control" and effectively kill any meaningful discussion.

What I see Casey trying to do is to limit the damage. Youyourself alluded to the various ToS violations Casey must have to deal with constantly.We're always going to have fanboys and immature users who are here simply to annoy, so by setting these various rules Casey is limiting the damage those users can do. Rather than have another Zelda TP disaster where we had account suicides and dozens of "Zelda TP flopped!/ZeldaTP did not flop!" threads drowning out the intelligent and meaingful posts here we have a set of rules and guidlines that stop the majority of those rediculous cookie-cutter bashing threads. While it may not be ideal, I simply cannot think of a better way to keep SW under control.

The reason things like the 'sales vs. games' thread were created was to create standards for the board. The point of this is to cut down on topics that aren't really substantial ("Sales are important!" "No, games are important!" etc.) and focus on the topics that do matter. It's a reasonable and important aim.

The worry, though, is that those standards dominate the discussion, when generally things can't be broken down that simply. "Most AAAEs = Best" tends to simplify things too much. If more nuanced views can be shut down by simply invoking these standards, the standards suffocate debate.

I guess the important question is why standards for something like "sales vs. games" exists. Do we go to these boards to determine a winner for greatest console? Do we go to these boards to laugh at ignorant fanboys? Or do we go to these boards for constructive and interesting debate about the state of the game industry?

People come here for a number of different reasons, I'm sure, but I'm not sure if having a standard metric to determine who 'wins' and who 'loses' necessarily works towards the best interests of the board.

sonicmj1

System Wars is capable of intelligent debate, and standardizing mediocre debate ensures that we will see far less of the intelligent kind.

Subrosian I completely agree, however because of tha anonymity of the interent I don't see how we would be able to keep SW as an open debate without having to deal with all kinds of whining and complaining of minute details between the various fanboys. I think that was Casey's goal in turning SW into a "game", to try and kill the various "OMG game x flopped!" threads and the like which just boil down toa couple of users pointlessly arguing until one of them gets bored or is suspended. The problem with your idea is that in order for it to work we would have to eliminate most (if not all) of the biased, fanboy drivel that has been filling SW more and more. Because of the immaturity of a seemingly growing number of users here I don't see how your idea of a perfect SW could work.

A good example of this is that Metroid Prime 3 review. Despite the facts that support MP3 as being a great game (as well as 8.5 being a great score) we were flooded by waves of various threads bashing MP3 or damage controlling for it.And while every once in a while a user would come up with an intelligent post explaining why MP3 is a great game and why AA is a great score, it would go largely ignored, or various fanboys would post something along the lines of "damage control" and effectively kill any meaningful discussion.

What I see Casey trying to do is to limit the damage. Youyourself alluded to the various ToS violations Casey must have to deal with constantly.We're always going to have fanboys and immature users who are here simply to annoy, so by setting these various rules Casey is limiting the damage those users can do. Rather than have another Zelda TP disaster where we had account suicides and dozens of "Zelda TP flopped!/ZeldaTP did not flop!" threads drowning out the intelligent and meaingful posts here we have a set of rules and guidlines that stop the majority of those rediculous cookie-cutter bashing threads. While it may not be ideal, I simply cannot think of a better way to keep SW under control.

PBSnipes

Casey can't mod them unless they break the TOS. A standard for a "winner" here in SW won't change the TOS. So we'll have the same number of crap posts and same number of suspensions.

[QUOTE="PBSnipes"]

Subrosian I completely agree, however because of tha anonymity of the interent I don't see how we would be able to keep SW as an open debate without having to deal with all kinds of whining and complaining of minute details between the various fanboys. I think that was Casey's goal in turning SW into a "game", to try and kill the various "OMG game x flopped!" threads and the like which just boil down toa couple of users pointlessly arguing until one of them gets bored or is suspended. The problem with your idea is that in order for it to work we would have to eliminate most (if not all) of the biased, fanboy drivel that has been filling SW more and more. Because of the immaturity of a seemingly growing number of users here I don't see how your idea of a perfect SW could work.

A good example of this is that Metroid Prime 3 review. Despite the facts that support MP3 as being a great game (as well as 8.5 being a great score) we were flooded by waves of various threads bashing MP3 or damage controlling for it.And while every once in a while a user would come up with an intelligent post explaining why MP3 is a great game and why AA is a great score, it would go largely ignored, or various fanboys would post something along the lines of "damage control" and effectively kill any meaningful discussion.

What I see Casey trying to do is to limit the damage. Youyourself alluded to the various ToS violations Casey must have to deal with constantly.We're always going to have fanboys and immature users who are here simply to annoy, so by setting these various rules Casey is limiting the damage those users can do. Rather than have another Zelda TP disaster where we had account suicides and dozens of "Zelda TP flopped!/ZeldaTP did not flop!" threads drowning out the intelligent and meaingful posts here we have a set of rules and guidlines that stop the majority of those rediculous cookie-cutter bashing threads. While it may not be ideal, I simply cannot think of a better way to keep SW under control.

TimeToPartyHard

Casey can't mod them unless they break the TOS. A standard for a "winner" here in SW won't change the TOS. So we'll have the same number of crap posts and same number of suspensions.

[QUOTE="TimeToPartyHard"][QUOTE="PBSnipes"]

Subrosian I completely agree, however because of tha anonymity of the interent I don't see how we would be able to keep SW as an open debate without having to deal with all kinds of whining and complaining of minute details between the various fanboys. I think that was Casey's goal in turning SW into a "game", to try and kill the various "OMG game x flopped!" threads and the like which just boil down toa couple of users pointlessly arguing until one of them gets bored or is suspended. The problem with your idea is that in order for it to work we would have to eliminate most (if not all) of the biased, fanboy drivel that has been filling SW more and more. Because of the immaturity of a seemingly growing number of users here I don't see how your idea of a perfect SW could work.

A good example of this is that Metroid Prime 3 review. Despite the facts that support MP3 as being a great game (as well as 8.5 being a great score) we were flooded by waves of various threads bashing MP3 or damage controlling for it.And while every once in a while a user would come up with an intelligent post explaining why MP3 is a great game and why AA is a great score, it would go largely ignored, or various fanboys would post something along the lines of "damage control" and effectively kill any meaningful discussion.

What I see Casey trying to do is to limit the damage. Youyourself alluded to the various ToS violations Casey must have to deal with constantly.We're always going to have fanboys and immature users who are here simply to annoy, so by setting these various rules Casey is limiting the damage those users can do. Rather than have another Zelda TP disaster where we had account suicides and dozens of "Zelda TP flopped!/ZeldaTP did not flop!" threads drowning out the intelligent and meaingful posts here we have a set of rules and guidlines that stop the majority of those rediculous cookie-cutter bashing threads. While it may not be ideal, I simply cannot think of a better way to keep SW under control.

PBSnipes

Casey can't mod them unless they break the TOS. A standard for a "winner" here in SW won't change the TOS. So we'll have the same number of crap posts and same number of suspensions.

I agree. Disruptive posts can be modded under the TOS. A flood of "MP3 was not a flop" would result in a stickied thread andevery post after that would be considereddisruptive. But without a stickied thread, or clearly disruptive posts,there can't be any suspension, deletion, etc. If someone makes a "Wii outsells 360" that's hardly disruptive unless there's a stickied thread, or excessive posts,about it, standard or not. A thread entitled "Lair flops!," isn't disruptive until it gets excessive. If we decide on sales or games, there will still be just as many crap posts as we get now because Casey does alreadysticky threads when they do get excessive and mod users when they get disruptive.

Casey can mod them though because with the rules certain actions are against the ToS. For example creating a new thread on the same subject as a stickied thread, and arguing a point such as "MP3 was not a flop" could also be seen as trying to annoy users, which is again against the ToS. Like I said, its not an ideal system by a longshot,and I would muchrather have SW operate under Subrosians vision for SW but I don't think it would work.PBSnipes

I know what CaseyWegner trying to do for System Wars. The "keep it here" hype threads, the stickied bet thread, the "sales or games" - he's making System Wars into a game. He has people vote on the rules for the game, people make a wager (either a bet, or simply a hype), and the winner is determined by the "voted on" scoring method. My theory was confirmed when he sticked a thread containing a history of the hyped games "flop" status.

The problem I, and others, have with such a system is that it takes away from what System Wars ultimately is - the place on GS where we can freely debate, criticize, and compare games and systems.subrosian

Subrosian, I stopped reading there. Didn't need to read the rest because that was enough for me to agree with you.

The main idea should be that. The ethic might turn into something where winning is the only evidence needed to shoot down arguements. To some of which are good.

Though we do get ridiculous claims now and then. A little soliditry never hurt.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="-Renegade"][QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]but the wii outselling the other 2 console makes it the better system. I dont think that should be true either. IS madden suddenly way better than god of war, mario platformers, zelda, smash bros, kotor, etc.

The problem with sales is things such as brand recoginition, casual interest, etc.

This website is full of gamers part of the niche market. and that market is more effected by the greater games.

ok and look at the wii, the third party support is meh. the 360 launched and was selling meh but got some great third party support to help it sell a bit better. PS3 has third party suppor and sells like garbage and still gets third party support. its more than just sales. Software sales matter as well. 360 is going to always get games because it sells so many. The wii and PS3 dont even do it on the same level as 360.

and how does that take away the fact that, we are measuring systems by what they sold to and not the quality of the games on the system. The system with the best games should win. Also before people say Nintendo might not win overall games, it can still win exclusives. They are still the best 1st party around. there 3 main franchises that launched this year(TP, Super Paper Mario, and Metroid Prime 3) each scored AA here, while TP and MEtroid are AAA on metacritic and gamerankings. With Warioware AAA here and AA everywhere else. If im not mistaken exclusives play a big role in this overall debate as well. And they should.

Im sorry but this forum is about the niche market of hardcore gamers who care about the games. i see no problem with that.

my problem is that we judge games by just one persons opinion and not the opinion of many critics. -Renegade

dude wii hasn't even been out a year yet... you think developers are just going to ignore the wii when it's selling over 1 million consoles per month??

are we forgetting ps3 is the sucessor of two of the most popular gaming consoles of alltime?psone and ps2 both of which have sold over 100 million consoles?? where is the logic in your post?

yeah 360 will always have games because ms pockets are deep but will it get the major support that 360 and wii get from japan? no because it sales like **** over there :lol: sales = games sales = games i never said that games don't matter but without the sales you won't win becasue you can't get the games on your system.. i am just going by the facts it's always been that way why should it change now.

IYO. reviews are nothing more then opinions why should we be forced to base winners off somenes opinion?

[QUOTE="PBSnipes"]Casey can mod them though because with the rules certain actions are against the ToS. For example creating a new thread on the same subject as a stickied thread, and arguing a point such as "MP3 was not a flop" could also be seen as trying to annoy users, which is again against the ToS. Like I said, its not an ideal system by a longshot,and I would muchrather have SW operate under Subrosians vision for SW but I don't think it would work.subrosian

I agree with the principle of what you're saying, though I think you're being a tad histrionic. Making a bunch of unnecessary rules on a game forum for a group of kids in an unending debate that can't be won is ridiculous. Trying to make something objective out of something completely subjective is just silly.

This site is a good place to find out what's going on in the gaming world and to get a few laughs now and then. That's all it is, though. Some of you are taking this way too seriously. Ignore these pointless rules of debate and continue to express yourselves freely if that's what you choose to do. Casey is not a fascist and I doubt he'll impede your free speech. He's just trying to do what's best for the forum, whether we agree with him or not.To each his own.

In the end, though, SW is whatever you want to make of it, but it will never be rocket science or curing cancer. If you're not enjoying it here-leave. If you are, enjoy it in your own way. It's as simple as that.

we need a new system that isnt built around the opinion of the people im sorry. But the people on this board did this to themselves in the first place. they themselves voted on games over sales.

nobody even argued wether or not that poll shouldnt be done. atleast not enough. You all had the chance to back down from it and not vote, and basically give casey the hint that there is no reason to have 1 over the other. but Did anyone really do that no. Instead you all voted, blindly because i know a bunch of you were bias against the wii(admit it) and it backfired into something you all hate now.

Seriousaly the need for a new revamped system i agree with. THe blame the mods, blame casey, blame this and that. SHUT THE FUDGE Up. YOu all did this to yourselves.jg4xchamp

How did we do it to ourselves? Any vote against a standard was disregarded because it wasn't a vote one way or another. How exactly did we vote ona system that wasn't the will of the users? I simply don't follow how you've arrived at this conclusion. Could you explain the reasoning behind it a little? I mean, the vote was put up on a Friday, over a holiday weekend, and closed on a Wednesday. Hardly enough time to get a real opinion of everyone. Not only that, but if you didn't agree with either side, it wasn't even an option.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]we need a new system that isnt built around the opinion of the people im sorry. But the people on this board did this to themselves in the first place. they themselves voted on games over sales.

nobody even argued wether or not that poll shouldnt be done. atleast not enough. You all had the chance to back down from it and not vote, and basically give casey the hint that there is no reason to have 1 over the other. but Did anyone really do that no. Instead you all voted, blindly because i know a bunch of you were bias against the wii(admit it) and it backfired into something you all hate now.

Seriousaly the need for a new revamped system i agree with. THe blame the mods, blame casey, blame this and that. SHUT THE FUDGE Up. YOu all did this to yourselves.TimeToPartyHard

How did we do it to ourselves? Any vote against a standard was disregarded because it wasn't a vote one way or another. How exactly did we vote ona system that wasn't the will of the users? I simply don't follow how you've arrived at this conclusion. Could you explain the reasoning behind it a little? I mean, the vote was put up on a Friday, over a holiday weekend, and closed on a Wednesday. Hardly enough time to get a real opinion of everyone. Not only that, but if you didn't agree with either side, it wasn't even an option.

Sorry, we both have such long posts I didn't want to quote. But you're saying that because the fanboys, the biased, and the "idiots" or what have you, voted against the people that actually bring good discussion here, everyone has to be held to the standard that they favored just because they outnumber everyone? I mean, you may agree with it, and that's fine, but what about the other people that bring decent discussion here that don't agree with it?TimeToPartyHard

and we cant debate. how do we know who wins. whatare the mods gonna be judges or something and call a winner. weall know the crap we will hear after that. the mods are "lemmings/sheep/cows/hermits/etc or whatever" for months.

either way it was a lose/lose situation. do i think he shouldntof even done the poll, i do.
But he wanted to set a standard(whichewe need) and unfortunantly for some of us it was a choice of 2 extremes.

[QUOTE="PBSnipes"]Casey can mod them though because with the rules certain actions are against the ToS. For example creating a new thread on the same subject as a stickied thread, and arguing a point such as "MP3 was not a flop" could also be seen as trying to annoy users, which is again against the ToS. Like I said, its not an ideal system by a longshot,and I would muchrather have SW operate under Subrosians vision for SW but I don't think it would work.subrosian

Moderators in message boards are very necessary. But they should only be ising their power when absolutely needed. Even when threads are stupid and ridiculous, if people are posting in them then they should be left. If a discussion is going on for pages and pages and is then locked then whats the point. This board is for entertainment and discusion and Casey sometimes forgets that and believes it needs all sorts of control. Casey is a good moderator and all but I feel that he excercizes his power too much and unless something is way out there or clearly unacceptable (porn suicides and such) he should let the forum go where it goes. Its not HIS board, its everyones.

Casey is a dude right? Maybe not... whatever im not doing that he/she crap.

[QUOTE="TimeToPartyHard"]Sorry, we both have such long posts I didn't want to quote. But you're saying that because the fanboys, the biased, and the "idiots" or what have you, voted against the people that actually bring good discussion here, everyone has to be held to the standard that they favored just because they outnumber everyone? I mean, you may agree with it, and that's fine, but what about the other people that bring decent discussion here that don't agree with it?jg4xchamp

and we cant debate. how do we know who wins. whatare the mods gonna be judges or something and call a winner. weall know the crap we will hear after that. the mods are "lemmings/sheep/cows/hermits/etc or whatever" for months.

either way it was a lose/lose situation. do i think he shouldntof even done the poll, i do.
But he wanted to set a standard(whichewe need) and unfortunantly for some of us it was a choice of 2 extremes.

But if we set a standard then we take all of the debate and opinionout of SW. We'd get 1 post every time a game is reviewed here on GS and that would be it. That's not the reason anyone started posting here. He might as well close the entire forum and only allow debates on stickied threads.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="TimeToPartyHard"]Sorry, we both have such long posts I didn't want to quote. But you're saying that because the fanboys, the biased, and the "idiots" or what have you, voted against the people that actually bring good discussion here, everyone has to be held to the standard that they favored just because they outnumber everyone? I mean, you may agree with it, and that's fine, but what about the other people that bring decent discussion here that don't agree with it?TimeToPartyHard

and we cant debate. how do we know who wins. whatare the mods gonna be judges or something and call a winner. weall know the crap we will hear after that. the mods are "lemmings/sheep/cows/hermits/etc or whatever" for months.

either way it was a lose/lose situation. do i think he shouldntof even done the poll, i do.
But he wanted to set a standard(whichewe need) and unfortunantly for some of us it was a choice of 2 extremes.

But if we set a standard then we take all of the debate and opinionout of SW. We'd get 1 post every time a game is reviewed here on GS and that would be it. That's not the reason anyone started posting here. He might as well close the entire forum and only allow debates on stickied threads.

I understand what the TC is saying but he is going overboard with this stuff.

I mean this isn't a serious freedom of speech issue or a real issue at all really to me.

Some people want a system, some don't. For those that do they have it. Free speech allows them to have their system and you are allowed to not follow it yet still post here about your opinions and beliefs.

If mods or whoever downplay what someone says cause it's not following the "rules" on who wins then that's kind of dumb IMO. Those rules are there for those who care about them. For those who don't they can talk about sales or whatever all they want.

And the Bet thread, which I made and which Casey was asked to sticky, is just a place for fun man. You act like this is some kind of regime. Need to take some steps back. It's not AS bas as you are making it out to be.

kcpp2b

You did make a vote to ban whoever don't make his bet!!!

It is becoming more serious, it is not funny anymore.

[QUOTE="TimeToPartyHard"][QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="TimeToPartyHard"]Sorry, we both have such long posts I didn't want to quote. But you're saying that because the fanboys, the biased, and the "idiots" or what have you, voted against the people that actually bring good discussion here, everyone has to be held to the standard that they favored just because they outnumber everyone? I mean, you may agree with it, and that's fine, but what about the other people that bring decent discussion here that don't agree with it?jg4xchamp

and we cant debate. how do we know who wins. whatare the mods gonna be judges or something and call a winner. weall know the crap we will hear after that. the mods are "lemmings/sheep/cows/hermits/etc or whatever" for months.

either way it was a lose/lose situation. do i think he shouldntof even done the poll, i do.
But he wanted to set a standard(whichewe need) and unfortunantly for some of us it was a choice of 2 extremes.

But if we set a standard then we take all of the debate and opinionout of SW. We'd get 1 post every time a game is reviewed here on GS and that would be it. That's not the reason anyone started posting here. He might as well close the entire forum and only allow debates on stickied threads.

I agree, some real guidelines would be nice. But just guidelines, and not just GS's opinion either. If we had more opinions than just GS's then I think everyone would be much happier since we are taking a lot opinion out of equation.

i kind of disagree with the thread.

first of, caesy or any other mod would never stop any intelligent discussion or creative discussion. the stickied threads are for the purpose limiting the useless, same crappy threads from being generated over and over again. for ex if bioshock was not stickied we would have seen 5 new thread for every review of bioshock that would have come out. so, how do these rules affetc free debate etc ?

your second problems is not a problem in my opinion. those bets, or sales vs games thread is again for preventing same type of threads from be created over and over again. instead of promoting 'the game', these thread do limit it. here you are making the mistake of assuming that this place can either be used for the sw game or for good disscussions. but this is not actually like this, imo those who want to argue endlessly about useless things like which system won the war etc can do so and those who want constructive argument can also do so at the same time.

truly speaking i could not understand very well how caesy caused the problems you mentioned. if you can give some examples it would be nice

I agree 100%.First off, when there would be a vote, they had to email us to know that it is so important to vote, I didn't know the vote will be taking serioulsy, so I did ignore the whole thread until I saw the new one with the official rule( I thought it was another funny Myth thread that's why I ignored it), only games matter!!!, it is officially fanboyism at it's finest, you can't take a vote from fanboys then make it a rule, alot will disagree, it will take the beauty of SW.

When I faced Casey, he did suspend me for one day cuz he disagree with me.I did ask him alot of questions he didn't answer, but the most important one is.

If, for instance,PS3 ended last place this gen but has a lot of great games, do you honeslty believe that a lemming/Sheep/Hermit will care about how many great games PS3 have?

they will always brag about how much the userbase is, and How much 360 sold.

Add to that, How on earth we will know great games if they sell few copies, if for example, Mass Effect sell 500 thousands, how we will know? I will answer that, because GS score it 9.5 and AAAE= 4 points and this is SW rules not real world rules, how silly is that?!!

In the other hand GTA4 sells 10 million copies but it is not good because GS score it 8.5 and AAs= 1 point, you got owned, my game is better than yours. :o

EDIT: Official hype threads has it's advantages and disadvantages but I prefer stickied hype threads.

HEH i dont see what all the fuss is about,this place will still be the same and nothing will change,there will still be sales threads and everything that fallows them!!

BTW this thread is a free disscusion thread so guess there will still be those too.

This thread was needed, and I more-or-less agree with the whole thing.

Just a few things; If you want to make an official hype thread, do it right or don't do it at all, please.

One thing remains the same at least, when a game gets hyped AAA-AAAA and it gets scored AA or below, it's a dirty flop. But back in the day, things like hyping AA or A was basically non-existent. If a game missed on AAA it was a flop. That way, games could still be discussed as good or great without the lame excuses, "Oh this wasn't hyped at all so it's crap.." or, "Oh this was hyped A but it got AA but that's still not AAA so it's crap" or my new favorite, "Oh this was hyped A but it got B so it's crap" WTF? Enough with the hyping A-AA crap for games and calling flops! If a game falls below AAA after it was hyped to be a 9.0 or higher score, only then it should officially flop.

This way of thinking not only causes close-mindedness for games, it also causes some people to take on a load of ownage for a game they sensibly hyped when a majority of fanboys blindly hype a game (mainly exclusives) because it's on their console of choice. The point on that one is if nothing is going to change on SW, at least make a section for people who hyped more sensibly on games so not for ownage-dodging, but for certain users to be commended to a point for being conservative on a game they're more informed about than your average blind fanboy hyping a game out the wazoo so people don't jump to conclusions about certain, more thoughtful users, branding them a blind fanboy in discussions.

Next, Sales vs. Games. This shouldn't even be a thread really..

Hypothetically speaking, if PS2 sold 3,000 consoles during its lifespan with the exact same games and everything else intact, the console sucks right? Of course not. That's why we can't judge on sales alone. Now, again for example, there area lot of people who think Deux Ex or Shadow of the Colossus should have gotten a AAA score, and quite a few people think Halo 2 or Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3 should be scored less than AAA (or AAAA lol). That's why we can't judge on games alone all the time. I mean, sure the scores should be counted in tallies regardless, but it just makes things boring, too straightforward, and in the end, causes more problems and headaches. If we rely on just one or the other, everyone in SW's heads would implode. That's why we should remain with both, to fight battles on both fronts, and to keep informed with news on both topics.

I also agree that mods now possess a little too much of a stranglehold (lolpun) on things here at SW. I mean, certain things shouldn't be invited back into SW from years ago, such as endless fanboy flamebait threads or rampant name-calling, but every now and then, there should be a need to call someone a two-toed scumbag lol. For real though, mods should ease up a tad, feels like some thread and discussion creativity is being subjected to marionette-like control, therefore threads lack what made them so fun back when SW didn't have that much linearity and things were more open ended. Now things just tend to become more dull and boring nowadays.

I do like the idea of SW Bets though, and would like to see the idea expand, it's great to add variety to the norm without ruining everyones time here. [/rant]

I think SW should have no mods

Agreed. Things have been getting stale around here recently.funnymario

Yeah the place has lost its soul since all the new rules came in, dumbed down review system just put the final nail in the coffin. System wars is dead, has been for a few months now. A couple of years ago this place was good fun. Not anymore, all we have now is hermits ripping on every console game, Casey saying PC wins every generation, and good games getting flopped.

It was fun while it lasted, but system wars on Gamespot has run its course.

I think SW should have no mods

4point5

Should've been here a few years back. The difference is like WWII and Pre School.

I pretty much ignore stickied threads. I dont like those cooky voting threads, and I dont like any thread that's way too long because I like to read everyone's posts.

I am a wii supporter, but I consider myself fair to all the systems. The only 'game' I percieve in system wars is talking about video games and putting ignorance in its place.

GunSmith1_basic

same here and then you don't notice one and post something about one of the games there and get moded for it

[QUOTE="CaseyWegner"][QUOTE="JiveT"]

Its weird I looked on the Site Enhancement board and somebody asked why there wasn't a Console War board (a question that occurs to many) and the Admin Dracula68 says and I quote:

"The PC isn't in the same group as consoles. All you asked was why there are no forums dedicated to consoles wars and there is. It is called System Wars."

It gets old hearing Hermits declare ownage because their library extends backwards until the early 80's, their hardware is constantly upgradeable, and there is no licensing fees for making PC games so the variety and sheer number of games is much higher yet you never hear anyone list off all the "flops"when quite frankly the vast majority of PC games are garbage. ThePC isn'tanything like the consoles.

I'm sure if Gamespot came up with a Console Wars in addition to System Wars it would be a huge success and the debate would be quite sterling. :)There seems to be a disconnect between what this Admin is saying and what we are told here in System Wars.

subrosian

well, the community manager says that the pc is part of system wars.

DX isnt the only way to achieve HDR.

The worst whine thread ever. All the changes I've seen here have been for the better, the board gets flooded with some stupid argument time after time, a sticky is created to settle that matter once and for all. What is there to complain, except the outcome obviously, but we all had a say, or if we didn't it was because it went according to the rules of the board, every board has its rules like it or not. And this is System WARS, we need ROE - Rules Of Engagement.

The games vs sales thread was created at the same time the Wii exceeded 360 sales ..Bias? No, maybe it was created just because that event caused a lot of discussion on the boards and needed to be addressed. It's all good imo.

The worst whine thread ever. All the changes I've seen here have been for the better, the board gets flooded with some stupid argument time after time, a sticky is created to settle that matter once and for all. What is there to complain, except the outcome obviously, but we all had a say, or if we didn't it was because it went according to the rules of the board, every board has its rules like it or not. And this is System WARS, we need ROE - Rules Of Engagement.

The games vs sales thread was created at the same time the Wii exceeded 360 sales ..Bias? No, maybe it was created just because that event caused a lot of discussion on the boards and needed to be addressed. It's all good imo.

EntwineX

Because it cause a lot of discussion on board and needed to be addressed? Good that you said that because you just proved that the "Games vs Sales" thread created by Casey was really because of the Wii outsold X360. If ever that moment cause a major havoc, blame it on the lemmings for overflowing (Lemming are the majority of the forums) the forums.

Also, for those that are claiming that a PC is not a gaming system, you're treading into dangerous territory. Not just in terms of possibily being modded, but you're getting into the discussion of an opinion about the primary use of an item, one which you can't win. If you can say that the primary use of a PC is to do other things (and that it can play games as a side bonus), then the 360 is a DVD player, the PS3 is a Blu-Ray player, and the Wii is a paperweight. Those are the primary uses of those various systems to me. They just have the extra ability to play games. Vampyronight

Can't win? I see it like this, the majority of consumers who buy a console (i.e: Xbox 360, Nintendo Wii, Playstation 3) buy it with gaming in mind. It doesn't work that way with PC consumers, if their primary reason for buying the system was for gaming; there wouldn't be a need for a console market.

[QUOTE="EntwineX"]

The worst whine thread ever. All the changes I've seen here have been for the better, the board gets flooded with some stupid argument time after time, a sticky is created to settle that matter once and for all. What is there to complain, except the outcome obviously, but we all had a say, or if we didn't it was because it went according to the rules of the board, every board has its rules like it or not. And this is System WARS, we need ROE - Rules Of Engagement.

The games vs sales thread was created at the same time the Wii exceeded 360 sales ..Bias? No, maybe it was created just because that event caused a lot of discussion on the boards and needed to be addressed. It's all good imo.

Zaistev_basic

Because it cause a lot of discussion on board and needed to be addressed? Good that you said that because you just proved that the "Games vs Sales" thread created by Casey was really because of the Wii outsold X360. If ever that moment cause a major havoc, blame it on the lemmings for overflowing (Lemming are the majority of the forums) the forums.

[QUOTE="Zaistev_basic"][QUOTE="EntwineX"]

The worst whine thread ever. All the changes I've seen here have been for the better, the board gets flooded with some stupid argument time after time, a sticky is created to settle that matter once and for all. What is there to complain, except the outcome obviously, but we all had a say, or if we didn't it was because it went according to the rules of the board, every board has its rules like it or not. And this is System WARS, we need ROE - Rules Of Engagement.

The games vs sales thread was created at the same time the Wii exceeded 360 sales ..Bias? No, maybe it was created just because that event caused a lot of discussion on the boards and needed to be addressed. It's all good imo.

EntwineX

Because it cause a lot of discussion on board and needed to be addressed? Good that you said that because you just proved that the "Games vs Sales" thread created by Casey was really because of the Wii outsold X360. If ever that moment cause a major havoc, blame it on the lemmings for overflowing (Lemming are the majority of the forums) the forums.

that's true

I don't really have an opinion either way - someone a few posts above me said that the real problems would start when alternative arguement threads started getting locked and such, and I agree. The PC thing needs to get figured out, though - is it considered a gaming system, and if it is, then that's the final word. If it isn't, then stop penalizing 360 and to a much lesser extent PS3 for having games ported to PC if it isn't a gaming system. I was glad when PC sticky got made just so the debate got settled to a degree, either way.

I initially liked the games vs. sales stuff, but lots of good arguements from you guys have swayed me. If we're going to use points and official standards and such, why not just have a chart? Why have forums?

The GUFU is full of fanboys, they just don't realise that they are fanboys. Pretty funny if you ask me.smokeydabear076

Hmm, and I always wondered why you denied our invitiation. I didn't realize I was a fanboy, but if the almighty smokeydabear says so, it must be.

DX isnt the only way to achieve HDR.

SER69

I agree to some extent of your post.