Do you want your games to touch on serious subject matter?

K obviously we have games that touch on mature subject matter regardless of whether they pretty much all suck at it) but with the debate of games being art do you think games should venture into deeper territory? Literature, movies, music etc have all ventured to dark and different subject matter, do you feel games eventually need to head down that path?

Sure, if it means expanding and pushing videogames as an art medium.

Sure, if it means expanding and pushing videogames as an art medium.

Vesica_Prime

Do you think games can touch on mature subject matter intelligently and still be fun and enjoyable "games"?

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

Sure, if it means expanding and pushing videogames as an art medium.

ActicEdge

Do you think games can touch on mature subject matter intelligently and still be fun and enjoyable "games"?

Manhunt certainly wasn't.

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

Sure, if it means expanding and pushing videogames as an art medium.

ActicEdge

Do you think games can touch on mature subject matter intelligently and still be fun and enjoyable "games"?

Silent Hill 2, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords and Half-Life 2 did imo.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

Sure, if it means expanding and pushing videogames as an art medium.

Vesica_Prime

Do you think games can touch on mature subject matter intelligently and still be fun and enjoyable "games"?

Silent Hill 2, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords and Half-Life 2 did imo.

Never played any of those games :P

What compelling subject matter did those games touch upon?

Sure, i won't be happy till we get a gay leading man.

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

Do you think games can touch on mature subject matter intelligently and still be fun and enjoyable "games"?

ActicEdge

Silent Hill 2, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords and Half-Life 2 did imo.

Never played any of those games :P

What compelling subject matter did those games touch upon?

Silent Hill 2

- Sex and Human emotion.

KoToR II

- Nihilism, shades of grey and how the world is not black and white.

Half-Life 2

- Depiction of totalitarianism (Orwellian style) , suppression and how humans can lose their humanity and become little less than robots.

Mass Effect One was a huge comment on Bush and weapons of mass destruction, but the council doesn't believe Shepard; much how like many people didnt believe Bush - of course, in mass effect, Saren DID have these weapons.iammason

Some how I'm certain that when I play ME, I'm not going to find anything intelligent about it. Regardless, I'll keep an open mind.

I wouldn't mind that. It's always nice to see other perspectives on serious matters. I just wouldn't want all games to be like that. Heavy Rain (which is enjoyed, despite many here hating it), provided me with a unique experience that I had never really gotten from a game before. It's the only game besides FFX where I actually cared about the characters.

Disaster Report 4 was going to deal with a Major earthquake in Japan. And then it actually happened,

But the previous ones deal with major events also, and are pretty enjoyable while still being pretty serious.

Alot of games try to be serious. Personally, I don't mind it but I play games for fun/vashkey

I agree that lots of games "try" to be serious. I disagree that many games do a good job at making strong compelling statements however.

Sure, i won't be happy till we get a gay leading man.

spookykid143

Sure, i won't be happy till we get a gay leading man.

spookykid143

There have been games that don't suck at it and I'd definitely like to see more games like that.

Mass Effect One was a huge comment on Bush and weapons of mass destruction, but the council doesn't believe Shepard; much how like many people didnt believe Bush - of course, in mass effect, Saren DID have these weapons.iammason

I want to play a game about hemorrhoids. Them is serious business.... Na, I'd love more serious games. Heavy Rain is one of the most compelling games I've ever played despite its hit and miss writing and voice acting simply because it touched a side of humanity such an interactive medium rarely does. People immerse themselves more deeply when they are looking at situations that they can empathize with. Serious, real world dilemmas could make for some really deep gaming experiences. MrSelf-Destruct

[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"]I want to play a game about hemorrhoids. Them is serious business.... Na, I'd love more serious games. Heavy Rain is one of the most compelling games I've ever played despite its hit and miss writing and voice acting simply because it touched a side of humanity such an interactive medium rarely does. People immerse themselves more deeply when they are looking at situations that they can empathize with. Serious, real world dilemmas could make for some really deep gaming experiences. DragonfireXZ95

do you think games should venture into deeper territory? Literature, movies, music etc have all ventured to dark and different subject matter, do you feel games eventually need to head down that path?

ActicEdge

Interesting question. To critically assess something usually has the author asserting an idea/belief/theory/possibility (etc.) to the viewer. The fact that video games are about the player controlling something usually means the author can't really push an idea, otherwise it'll end up too story-book-esque, or it will end up being something that isn't really what we enjoy about videogames (ie it'll become something more we watch than play). Sure videogames can do that, but it isn't really a good idea. Furthermore, there are better means for the author to express themselves in a critical and intelligent way.

Upon reflection though, I'm sure some creative mind can think of a way to push an intelligent subject matter while still upholding a strong sense of gameplay. Bottomline is, I have yet to see a game do that, but you never know, it may happen.

trugs26

A lot of games already did what the thread starter is trying to say, years ago, especially adventure games were the story is the most important thing to behold and deep, complex psychological thriller games such as the likes of Sanitarium.

I don't have an active desire to see more of that, but I would appreciate it if it was done properly. ie, not overdone for the sake of being edgy or controversial, and not forced into games that don't need narrative of that depth. Simple stories can be good too, especially in games where it's so important that we identify with and understand the character we're in control of, and that there be a clearly-defined antagonist so we can be motivated to help the character through the game.

I think it's possible. Like a Heavy Rain inspired direction. I'd be very interested in a game without any action in it and is more story and drama centered. I feel like all games now are easily comparable to action movies, but very few are comparable to a drama. And I think if games want to be taken more serious, we're going to have to explore those subjects more.Not-A-Stalker

You are talking about story and thats where you are wrong in my humble opinion. Videogame is completely different medium than movie and if you want to propose artistic experience, you have to look at it from a completely different angle (its sort of like paintings vs literature - both are completely different artistic disciplines). I think Flower is true piece of art among videogames and it has nothing to do with the story, its all about the expeirence.

Also, Heavy Rain is arts in a videogame and although there is great thriller story, thats not what makes it artistic. The gameplay is. The experience, the number of motions that you have to make with your controller just to use inhalator, the choices you make and the consequences they bring, etc. etc.

[QUOTE="DragonfireXZ95"]

[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"]I want to play a game about hemorrhoids. Them is serious business.... Na, I'd love more serious games. Heavy Rain is one of the most compelling games I've ever played despite its hit and miss writing and voice acting simply because it touched a side of humanity such an interactive medium rarely does. People immerse themselves more deeply when they are looking at situations that they can empathize with. Serious, real world dilemmas could make for some really deep gaming experiences. MrSelf-Destruct

It was a fun game, but yeah, it was THAT bad.

I'm not going to list them all, instead, I'll give you a list.

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/heavy-rains-big-plot-holes/a-20100224105436979020

[QUOTE="trugs26"]
Interesting question. To critically assess something usually has the author asserting an idea/belief/theory/possibility (etc.) to the viewer. The fact that video games are about the player controlling something usually means the author can't really push an idea, otherwise it'll end up too story-book-esque, or it will end up being something that isn't really what we enjoy about videogames (ie it'll become something more we watch than play). Sure videogames can do that, but it isn't really a good idea. Furthermore, there are better means for the author to express themselves in a critical and intelligent way.

Upon reflection though, I'm sure some creative mind can think of a way to push an intelligent subject matter while still upholding a strong sense of gameplay. Bottomline is, I have yet to see a game do that, but you never know, it may happen.

Lucianu

A lot of games already did what the thread starter is trying to say, years ago, especially adventure games were the story is the most important thing to behold and deep, complex psychological thriller games such as the likes of Sanitarium.

I know games that are examples of these problems, but they only tell it as an emotional story. Nothing is actually critically assessing the matter.

And it was of this kind, that I claimed that no game has done. If it is "serious" in the sense of a serious, emotional, gripping story, then ofcourse games can do that, and can do it quite well.

I do, and there sure as hell not enough of them this gen, and even fewer hitting the nail right.

Heavy Rain was a mixed bag, thankfully it was an enthralling experience the first time through, I have probably never been so engaged in QTB gameplay segments. The writing was surprisingly, not up to standard.

From the deleted scenes, I would have appreciated if David Cage did explore more on the mental state of Ethan, the hallucinations of abstaining with (insert name of FBI detective), altogether more of an emphasis on psychological trips. That, and perhaps include a supernatural element to it as I feel that Cage had some in mind for HR, as long as it fits well with the story and not go bonkers like IP did.

Oh, and either furthur flesh out Madison to actually some relevance to the plot, or can her altogether and focus on the other three protagonists.

I don't generally like video games that try to be too serious. We deal with enough seriousness in the real world, and games that try to be mature just the sake of it usually fall flat on their face.

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

Sure, if it means expanding and pushing videogames as an art medium.

ActicEdge

Do you think games can touch on mature subject matter intelligently and still be fun and enjoyable "games"?

Yes, they already have. There are a good few games that do this well. Of course some will fail. Some books, movies and so on fail as well. Video games ARE art. I don't see how someone could say they are not. Of course, some games and/or series don't try very hard to make every aspect top notch and fresh feeling, but I am sure there are bands, painters, novelists and so on that don't either.

Bottom line is that we have a mix of game types and some are just meant to be fun, some are meant to be engrossing and story driven. Not all songs, paintings, books and so on are made with the intent to have some serious meaning, many are not actually. Of course Mario does not need a deep and mature story, but some do. I love both styles.

Hm, I think I may have misinterpreted what this thread is about. Games obviously can touch on emotional issues, I thought we were wondering if games can touch on a serious subject matter. "Serious" not meaning a serious dramatic storyline, but rather, a problematic question we are faced with in life. Something intellectually challenging, rather than emotional. A game like Sanitarium is heavy on an emotional (and a very interesting) story. What I was inferring to was something that challenges the viewer on subjects like justice, morality, questions of meta ethical issues, what constitutes intelligence, etc.

I know games that are examples of these problems, but they only tell it as an emotional story. Nothing is actually critically assessing the matter.

And it was of this kind, that I claimed that no game has done. If it is "serious" in the sense of a serious, emotional, gripping story, then ofcourse games can do that, and can do it quite well.

trugs26

I think its a matter of.. perspective. What i mean by that is how the viewer, the gamer, is affected by these aspects and how they can make the gamer at hand feel challenged intellectually with conflicts in their sense of what you described (justice, morality, depth), is subjective, it depends on each. A emotional take on these issues grabs the attention of the viewer.. Games have always ben one sided, but so have, if not most, movies. I think, i'm mearly generalizing anyway..

Sure but I like accessibility (in the sense that I don't need to be a genious to figure out the gameplay).

Depends on how well it's presented, and how much it tries to look "serious".
Some games mentioned earlier in the thread are good examples. I would add Sanitarium and Heavy Rain to the list.

Yes... yes I do. Instead of seeing people shot without any emotional consequences, I think it would be neat to explore PTSD in a shooter, for example. donalbane

Only time that'd happen is when the shooting stops. :P Can't call it a shooter after that.

-----

Considering the player will likely want to do some shooting whereas the character won't (I know I want to. :D), the theme would be totally missed. Think I'll leave it to something like First Blood.

Sure, I know 3.

MGS1, MGS2, MGS3.

...The point?

AMERICANS ARE DOGZ!!

...

I JEST, I Jest!

:P

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

Sure, if it means expanding and pushing videogames as an art medium.

ActicEdge

Do you think games can touch on mature subject matter intelligently and still be fun and enjoyable "games"?

I adore games that actually do that type of "serious" issue well. Bioshock and all it's stuff of free market vs. socialism, productivity vs. morality, child labour/enslavement, references the Nazi concentration camps and their "scientific experiments". Tons more themes there too, if you played it you know. That surgery place where scientific advances led to constant cosmetic surgery until eventually the doctor went mad in his search for aesthetic perfection... *shudder* I like games that make you think about politics as well, such as Tropico 3. At the point at which I was building a church, promising better healthcare and jacking up wages in the short term in order to win an election to stay in power, while planning to lower wages again after the election and not bother about the healthcare, I realised I was just like every other politician out there :P Was a good lesson in how much pressure they are under tho! Tons more, far more rewarding to have great gameplay + a story, theme, issue, emotional respones, etc, then just gameplay.locopatho

Problem with most games, like Bioshock for is that the themes in the plot, are overridden by the central gameplay theme - shooting people in the face, and making them die in a variety of exiting ways. That and the underlying theme to the plot don't correlate, same with the moral choice system which felt arbitrary to the plot.

In this regard, games still have a long way to go, but hey there's always the odd title, Shadow of the Colossus is a popular one to point out.