DX 12 will not close the gap between the PS4 and XBO confirmed.

I haven't used an Alt since last year. lol!! I told you before, Heil68 knows my alt. I have no idea who NyaDC or Dynamitecop is. They aren't me though. Go on and continue to having your meltdowns though. It's fun watching the Jester of SW lose it.

And you are a lemming who pretend to be a PC gamer.

LOL! That's your defence for everything. You had a meltdown and now you've run out of ideas (which you did eons ago to be fair); now go outside and play fool.

NO that is what i tell lemming who hide on PC,you on other hand area a true lemming.

Lol, he's more apt to scratch a cow behind the ear and make it purr with pleasure but kick a lemming or two through the goalposts just for fun. :P

LMAO! Thanks for the laughs bro, always a pleasure to see a classic tormentos meltdown:
"buh..buh...you are a lemming/lemming hiding behind teh PC, you big, bad, glorious, silly bafoon!!11"

Quite the opposite. I hate cows with a passion - the annoying hypocritic faeces of the gaming community. But on the other hand I think the PS4 is a fantastic console - best now, by far - just needs a few more AAA exclusives for my taste, but this year is looking good!

Lemmings are nowhere near as annoying as cows though; very tolerable (other than NyaDC). But Xbox One is one giant fucking turd that I won't go anywhere near this generation. Xbox 360 was decent but still useless to me as a PC gamer; XO is even worse in that respect - Microsoft really dropped the ball and it's still falling.

Give me one reason as to why I should buy an Xbox One when I have a PC capable of maxing The Witcher 3 (hairworks disabled)? ONE (pun intended) reason!

Quantum Break was the final straw...I refuse to buy paper weight.

Lol, was just messing with the Torm. :P

Eh, I thinks it's been obvious that if you're mainly a top tier PC gamer, one in which you stay up to date, there is no reason for an X1 butttt, if like me, a lazy older gamer who just rather the console experience with no fuss, no muss than there's plenty of reason for X1 beginning with MS owned IP's.

Yeah, they generally screwed the pooch with X1 no doubt about it since MS was in the drivers seat leading up to this gen especially with cash to spare and should have ( I fully expected they would ) made a powerhouse console focused on gaming First, than like with 360 bring the other stuff later. Freakin making Kinect part of the console a must buy was one of the biggest bonehead Moves, pun intended :P of all time.

All that said, I'm enjoying the X1 quite nicely, it's come a long way since launch.

I really couldn't agree more with you

Tormentos is a complete moron. I have two current gaming systems a PS4 paperweight (nothing to play on it right now) and a high end PC on which I do the majority of my gaming (i7 4770k, GTX 980ti 16 GB 2400Mhz RAM etc.) but because I have never agreed with that dummy, he thinks that makes me a Lemming. Xbox One and Wii U are two consoles I will never own.

@GarGx1:

lol whats funny is that I also get called a lemming because I correct him, prove him wrong and tone down his glorified delusional view of the PS4 and oversimplified mindless bashing of the X1. And the kicker is I dont even own either brand of console....

How nice of you.

Lemmings are nowhere near as annoying as cows though; very tolerable (other than NyaDC).

A-a-a. As long Xbox community has Tim Dog, MisterXmedia, they're annoying by a huge margin.

Hm.... i noticed here bunch of lems trying to spin everything - QB wins SIGGRAPH 2015 for graphics, ( that was the best actually ). QB is native 1080p by someone., Uncharted 4 is 900p/30 (LOL) and other shit.

Oh, I see. Carry on then! :D

Yeah I can see where you're coming from, and I totally respect that.

Personally, it's not that I dislike the consoles of this gen; it's just that I can't find any genuine reason as to why I should fork out the money to buy one just yet - and they've both been out for more than two years, the ****? Believe you me, I love the console experience. Hell two of my favourite games of last gen were console-centric: Demon's Souls and Red Dead Redemption. I'm not into Uncharted at all, but if The Last Guardian turns good, I'll probably get myself a PS4 this year!

I agree that Microsoft really went out of their way to try to repair some of that irreparable damage they brought on themselves with that horrendous E3 showing. Last year looked very promising and ended up being pretty solid to be honest. However, I feel that they are slowly regressing now and that they still have WAYS to go...

You're welcome. One love!

Nah fam, the plethora of annoying cows I've seen over the years shits all over the few annoying lemmings. But to each his/her own I guess.

He seems to spend more time writing essay-scale topics comparing marginal differences between the consoles than actually rather than actually playing games. Perhaps an inadvertent testament, by himself, of the rather lacklustre library of AAA games PS4 has to offer more than two years into its lifespan. It's quite amusing.

Maybe he'll tone things down a bit this year, with Uncharted 4, Ratchet & Clank, The Last Guardian and Horizon on the horizon (nailed that pun!). Doubt it...don't think he's much of a gamer.

@04dcarraher: He calls everyone who doesn't 100% agree with him a Lemming. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

@ToScA-: I'm not convinced that he actually owns a PS4 at all.

I started ignoring him a long time ago.

Hahahaa you didn't correct me you didn't prove me wrong at all and all i have being claiming for more than a year happen,the xbox one loss even with DX12 the gap never shrunk and just like i told you still even with DX12 the PS4 has higher resolution and faster frames than the XBO,the recorded gaps in both instances have being bigger than all your predictions and many others.

You are just bitter because i expose your double standard and hypocrite argument on 1 side you claimed last gen that console optimization was a joke,but then you ride DX12 helping the xbox one even when we all know DX12 is console like optimization bring to PC.

No hermit would go to the extent you,and Ronvalencia went to some how prove DX12 would help the xbox one.

No i called you out for your constant defending of the xbox one as well,and then when loss the argument you ran and hide on PC which is pathetic,Tosca is a lemming period and a sony hater..lol

You mean after i took picture of my 360 and ridicule you after you claim i didn't own one and then you started to claim is wasn't mine lol.? :)

Yeah i one line meltdown hahaha so if i call you for what you are some how is a meltdown.?

This place is down right pathetic,most of you lemmings don't even have the guts to admit you are lemming,but it is ok if Blackace,NyaDC and Kingtito can claim they are not lemmings i am sure you can too.

You are wrong. If both PS4 and XBO has similar multithreading model and similar GCN optimisations, the gap remains as is i.e. DirectX12 will not solve GPU's ALU bound issues and it's different from ROPS and memory bandwidth issues.

If GPU's ALU is budgeted at around 1.3 TFLOPS / 33 ms, XBO can pump 1920x1080p at ~30 fps e.g. Avalanche Studios's Mad Max. Avalanche Studios has workaround XBO's ROPS limitations with TMU's memory operations. You don't get the difference between workaround XBO's ROPS limit and unsolvable ALU limit (running the same shader programs).

PS4's GPU doesn't have the ALU power to pump 1920x1080p with 60 fps when XBO's workload is at 1920x1080p with ~30 fps i.e. you need a GCN with around 2.6 TFLOPS for 1920x1080p at 60 fps result vs XBO's 1920x1080p at 30 fps.

Only 7950 BE beats XBO for both memory bandwidth and ALU/TMU areas while PS4 was only superior with ALU over XBO. PS4's TMUs are memory bandwidth bound i.e. PS4 is inferior to XBO's memory writes (concurrent ESRAM+DDR3).

Shader Model 6 is the "last" software optimisation for GCN running with Microsoft OS platforms i.e. it gives the programmer access to AMD GCN's wave front** and 64bit ALU processor programming access.

**On NVIDIA CUDA GPUs, it's called warp. The programmer for SM6 will need to be aware of hardware's wavefront/warp size limits i.e. it's at least two code path for AMD GCN and NVIDIA Maxwellv2.

Wave or Wave-Front = AMD's GpGPU terminology

Warp = NVIDIA's GpGPU terminology

One line? Just look at this post, ROFLMAO!!

Sorry, can't really hear your steaming pile of cow dung of a post (aka meltdown), too busy playing Gwent in Velen.

Happy easter!

Hahaha see you argue sh** that no one is arguing.

1-How the fu** i am wrong.? I claimed the gap would not go away and it didn't go away,DX12 will not solve any xbox one problem because giving the xbox one a little more free CPU would not do anything when it is ALU bound period,it was already proven in the witcher 3 were you people claimed the PS4 was CPU bound vs the XBO when in reality it was poor unoptimized code like i always claimed,once the PS4 code was optimize not only again the PS4 had an advantage in resolution but also in frames.

Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....

We all know it wasn't stable and always but the PS4 did manage to pull a lead as big as 60 vs 30 it also happen in sniper elite 3,and on Project Cars the gap was as big as 14FPS while having 44% more resolution and extra temporal which the xbox one lack that gap is a considerable one.

Now this is useless all because DX12 is here and changed nothing,there will not be a scenario were the PS4 is CPU bound vs the xbox one,because the PS4 CPU is enough to drive the PS4 pass the xbox one 100% peak,and this is the problem and i told you so like 100 times,when you use to claim the PS4 was CPU bound in Alien Isolation..hahahaa

No matter what the PS4 will always be ahead and DX12 would not change anything,SWBF3 proved that.

@ronvalencia said:

What about the marketing deal? Why would CD Projekt RED technically gimp PS4?

XBO vs PS4 shader bound issues will remain as is, but when XBO selects 1600x900p or 1360x1080p then it has chance for slightly superior frame rates.

With Witcher 3,

XBO's 1600x900p with slightly superior frame rates. At this resolution, XBO GPU is less shader bound and enables the CPU to push more frame setup scenes.

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/quantum-break-1080p-revealed-at-siggraph-2015-32363441/?page=3

Hahahaa Remember this ^^ you were one of those that used the Witcher 3 as example of the PS4 suppose CPU problem,even when i argued many times that 150mhz in a damn jaguar would not even be enough to push 1 frame more of performance over the PS4 let alone 6 or 8 like some games have show,every scenario were the XBO was ahead frame wise was cause by the code not being optimized from ACU to The Witcher 3.

What happen then.? Oh the PS4 version was optimize and it beat the xbox one version even while having an extra 44% resolution boost,this is the reason i say your math and @04dcarraher is wrong,claming the PS4 has 29% or 31% is a joke when the gap in resolution alone is 44% without taking into notice any frames or other process they PS4 may be pull as well.

So if you have a 3 to 5 FPS advantage and 44% resolution advantage is clear the PS4 has like some 50% performance on the spot over the other console regardless of what your skewed math claim.

Now don't even bother replying with your usual damage control and irrelevant arguments,fact is DX12 didn't change anything and i told you so.

Hey @04dcarraher remember this.?

@04dcarraher said:

Prime example is BF4 where the DICE used async shaders with PS4 while X1 was stuck with its limited API rendering 30% less resolution with an average of 10 fps less in MP. (With DX12 we would most likely see X1 only have a lower resolution but with equal or slightly better framerate average)

Now once X1's new SDK comes out with DX12 both consoles will be on the same coding standards and we will see X1's cpu side abilities become much better and have more resources to be used from the upclock and that extra core. So we will most likely see X1 performing better in some aspects then the PS4 when it comes to cpu demanding tasks.

Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

So most likely you argument failed,like always DX12 came and the xbox one still behind in both,it didn't happen.

Yes one line because that is what you quoted from me lemming..lol

@tormentos said:

@ronvalencia said:

You are wrong. If both PS4 and XBO has similar multithreading model and similar GCN optimisations, the gap remains as is i.e. DirectX12 will not solve GPU's ALU bound issues and it's different from ROPS and memory bandwidth issues.

If GPU's ALU is budgeted at around 1.3 TFLOPS / 33 ms, XBO can pump 1920x1080p at ~30 fps e.g. Avalanche Studios's Mad Max. Avalanche Studios has workaround XBO's ROPS limitations with TMU's memory operations. You don't get the difference between workaround XBO's ROPS limit and unsolvable ALU limit (running the same shader programs).

PS4's GPU doesn't have the ALU power to pump 1920x1080p with 60 fps when XBO's workload is at 1920x1080p with ~30 fps i.e. you need a GCN with around 2.6 TFLOPS for 1920x1080p at 60 fps result vs XBO's 1920x1080p at 30 fps.

Only 7950 BE beats XBO for both memory bandwidth and ALU/TMU areas while PS4 was only superior with ALU over XBO. PS4's TMUs are memory bandwidth bound i.e. PS4 is inferior to XBO's memory writes (concurrent ESRAM+DDR3).

Shader Model 6 is the "last" software optimisation for GCN running with Microsoft OS platforms i.e. it gives the programmer access to AMD GCN's wave front** and 64bit ALU processor programming access.

**On NVIDIA CUDA GPUs, it's called warp. The programmer for SM6 will need to be aware of hardware's wavefront/warp size limits i.e. it's at least two code path for AMD GCN and NVIDIA Maxwellv2.

Wave or Wave-Front = AMD's GpGPU terminology

Warp = NVIDIA's GpGPU terminology

Hahaha see you argue sh** that no one is arguing.

1-How the fu** i am wrong.? I claimed the gap would not go away and it didn't go away,DX12 will not solve any xbox one problem because giving the xbox one a little more free CPU would not do anything when it is ALU bound period,it was already proven in the witcher 3 were you people claimed the PS4 was CPU bound vs the XBO when in reality it was poor unoptimized code like i always claimed,once the PS4 code was optimize not only again the PS4 had an advantage in resolution but also in frames.

Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....

We all know it wasn't stable and always but the PS4 did manage to pull a lead as big as 60 vs 30 it also happen in sniper elite 3,and on Project Cars the gap was as big as 14FPS while having 44% more resolution and extra temporal which the xbox one lack that gap is a considerable one.

Now this is useless all because DX12 is here and changed nothing,there will not be a scenario were the PS4 is CPU bound vs the xbox one,because the PS4 CPU is enough to drive the PS4 pass the xbox one 100% peak,and this is the problem and i told you so like 100 times,when you use to claim the PS4 was CPU bound in Alien Isolation..hahahaa

No matter what the PS4 will always be ahead and DX12 would not change anything,SWBF3 proved that.

@ronvalencia said:

What about the marketing deal? Why would CD Projekt RED technically gimp PS4?

XBO vs PS4 shader bound issues will remain as is, but when XBO selects 1600x900p or 1360x1080p then it has chance for slightly superior frame rates.

With Witcher 3,

XBO's 1600x900p with slightly superior frame rates. At this resolution, XBO GPU is less shader bound and enables the CPU to push more frame setup scenes.

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/quantum-break-1080p-revealed-at-siggraph-2015-32363441/?page=3

Hahahaa Remember this ^^ you were one of those that used the Witcher 3 as example of the PS4 suppose CPU problem,even when i argued many times that 150mhz in a damn jaguar would not even be enough to push 1 frame more of performance over the PS4 let alone 6 or 8 like some games have show,every scenario were the XBO was ahead frame wise was cause by the code not being optimized from ACU to The Witcher 3.

What happen then.? Oh the PS4 version was optimize and it beat the xbox one version even while having an extra 44% resolution boost,this is the reason i say your math and @04dcarraher is wrong,claming the PS4 has 29% or 31% is a joke when the gap in resolution alone is 44% without taking into notice any frames or other process they PS4 may be pull as well.

So if you have a 3 to 5 FPS advantage and 44% resolution advantage is clear the PS4 has like some 50% performance on the spot over the other console regardless of what your skewed math claim.

Now don't even bother replying with your usual damage control and irrelevant arguments,fact is DX12 didn't change anything and i told you so.

Hey @04dcarraher remember this.?

@04dcarraher said:

Prime example is BF4 where the DICE used async shaders with PS4 while X1 was stuck with its limited API rendering 30% less resolution with an average of 10 fps less in MP. (With DX12 we would most likely see X1 only have a lower resolution but with equal or slightly better framerate average)

Now once X1's new SDK comes out with DX12 both consoles will be on the same coding standards and we will see X1's cpu side abilities become much better and have more resources to be used from the upclock and that extra core. So we will most likely see X1 performing better in some aspects then the PS4 when it comes to cpu demanding tasks.

Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

So most likely you argument failed,like always DX12 came and the xbox one still behind in both,it didn't happen.

@ToScA- said:

One line? Just look at this post, ROFLMAO!!

Sorry, can't really hear your steaming pile of cow dung of a post (aka meltdown), too busy playing Gwent in Velen.

Happy easter!

Yes one line because that is what you quoted from me lemming..lol

Sniper Elite 3 (July 2014) uses the titling method on 32 MB ESRAM for it's framebuffer i.e. it doesn't use the split render method. This indicates older XDK. This is Xbox 360 method being done on XBO.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-sniper-elite-3-face-off

Here we see similar frame-rates across both consoles, with the PS4 version edging out an occasional 5-10fps lead

PS4 hitting a near-solid 60fps while the Xbox One game trails behind in the mid-40s

Since XBO has about 70 percent from PS4's GPU ALU power i.e. 70 percent from 60 fps yields 46 fps which matches DF's "mid-40s" observations hahahahahahhahahahahahahahha

Tomb Raider Definitive Edition for consoles was released on January 2014. XBO version was lock to 30 fps limit i.e. XBO version wasn't allowed to float above 30 fps.

The split rendering on DDR3 and ESRAM is new feature over Xbox 360's tiling on embedded memory. This is during GDC 2015 year.

Projects Cars

PS4 has 4 rendering threads vs PC's single rendering thread.

XBO....

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-metro-redux-what-its-really-like-to-make-a-multi-platform-game

Digital Foundry: To what extent will DX12 prove useful on Xbox One? Isn't there already a low CPU overhead there in addressing the GPU?

Oles Shishkovstov: No, it's important. All the dependency tracking takes a huge slice of CPU power. And if we are talking about the multi-threaded command buffer chunks generation - the DX11 model was essentially a 'flop', while DX12 should be the right one.

The MT model is not even the same LOL.

Try again.

So basically you are refuting my argument with the same baseless bullcrap that has being prove wrong time and time again.

1-Split rendering will change NOTHING at all the game was 1080p on both platforms the xbox one just could not keep up GPU wise.

2-Your math is skewed to show a smaller gap,so basically again you are claiming the xbox one has 70% of the PS4 alu,yet on real time performance that translates into a 44% resolution disparity and even more if we account 5 FPS lead like in some games in a 30FPS game so we are talking about 15% performance in frames + 44% in resolution,dude that is close to 60% gap in actual in game performance.

3-The xbox one version of tomb raider dropped to 24FPS even lock,imagine how much worse it would have be unlock.

4-Split rendering is something that will help with memory dude not with performance,the xbox one has to be 900p in some games because its GPU at 1080p just can't give playeable frames specially at the exact quality as the PS4.

5-Project Cars is a deferred game on PS4 and xbox one stated by the developer it self,in fact i quote the developer stating that DX12 gains for the XBO would also apply to the PS4 which mean on a game were the PS4 was ahead already by as much as 14 FPS would also improve more,not only that the xbox one used 7 cores the PS4 used 6 + the PS4 was 1080p vs 900p + the PS4 had extra temporal AA which the xbox one lack that is a long ass gap if you ask me in performance and much bigger than the 30% you want to claim the 2 consoles have.

Oh brother you keep quoting that sh** from Metro developer the same developer stated in that same interview that they ALREADY HAD DX12 like API and that they could not use it on Metro because of time,metro was a 2014 game imagine how much has rain since the game came out and how many developer did use the tools because they did have time.

BY the way nothing you say there change anything DX12 already hit the xbox one and not only the game it hit is slower and with lower resolution on xbox one,but is also 720p when some people use to claim better ESRAM use would allow for higher resolution,the truth is the xbox one GPU is to weak and its hardware to cumbersome which add to the disparity even more.

1. When running the same shader program, ALU bound issues can not be workaround. Note that Shader Model 6 is "last" major software DX optimisation for GCN that runs Microsoft OS platforms

2. You stuffed-up you math with PS4's memory bandwidth.

IF there's a strict 30 fps or 60 fps requirement and running the same shader programs, you lower XBO resolution

For example,

1920x1080p = 2073600 pixels

1600x900p = 1440000 pixels

1440,000 is 69.4 percent of 2,073,600.

3. There's less performance pitfalls with fast CPU and straight 256bit 2 GB GDDR5-5500 when compared to XBO's setup. To perform well, XBO has a narrow path.

4. Split rendering removes repetitive tiling loop time wastage i.e. you spill framebuffer sections to DDR3 when you exceed 32MB ESRAM instead of doing repetitive tiling loop.

ESRAM has ~109 GB/s write is split up into four channels i.e. each channel has 27 GB/s and DDR3 memory pool is being use as another channel for memory writes. The idea is to reduce rendering time.

This workaround wouldn't solve ALU bound issues.

5. http://gamingbolt.com/project-cars-dev-ps4-single-core-speed-slower-than-high-end-pc-splitting-renderer-across-threads-challenging

PC's single rendering thread is being split into four rendering threads on PS4. This doesn't remove other task that needs to be deferred.

@tormentos said:

Oh brother you keep quoting that sh** from Metro developer the same developer stated in that same interview that they ALREADY HAD DX12 like API and that they could not use it on Metro because of time,metro was a 2014 game imagine how much has rain since the game came out and how many developer did use the tools because they did have time.

Your "ALREADY HAD DX12 like API" doesn't cover the areas that 4A Games's comment on DX12. Furthermore, Rise of Tomb Raider (10 Nov 2015) was the first XBO title with Async compute usage. SWBF was released later in November, 17th and it's was XBO's first DX12 title.

XBO's result being slower than PC's 7770 with fast Intel CPU result debunks your argument.

All these API changes mitigates AMD's CPU single thread issues.

PS4's temporal AA uses previous frame.

In addition to EQAA, a 'temporal aliasing' pass is added to the Sony release, blending the previous frame with the current one to reduce flicker on moving objects. During gameplay this works surprisingly well in minimising pixel crawl, but the implementation here is a divisive one. The downside is simple: it creates a ghost image that's very easy to spot in static images, and the effect is noticeable in motion too.

According to the same developer post, a debug shot with this temporal pass disabled shows motion blur is indeed running separately on PS4 underneath - the same shader as used on PC and Xbox One. However, as the temporal filter adds a significant amount of blur to motion on its own, the team states it chose to reduce the velocity setting of the PS4's motion blur to compensate. It makes sense, but in terms of the overall effect, this hybrid setup doesn't come close to the Xbox One's smoother, cleaner gradient in motion. An option to turn the PS4's temporal pass off altogether would be a welcome step, especially if it's possible to return its motion blur velocity value to its original state.

Pros and Cons with Project Cars' 'temporal aliasing'.

Unfortunately, texture filtering isn't a high point for Project Cars. Ground textures on console make use of what appears a match for PC's 4x anisotropic filtering mode, though PS4 produces blurrier results than Xbox One overall. It's not a concern when a race kicks off, but waiting at a starting grid shows these crisp textures tailing off sharply in quality within a few metres - especially on Sony's console. PC surges forward here with its top-end 16x setting, and circuits like Willow Springs International Raceway benefit hugely from an ultra grass setting, increasing the range at which small foliage is rendered (where consoles use the PC's low setting).

PS4's infamous AF problem strikes again. My point, PS4's Project Cars is not delivering PC style advantage over XBO i.e. no compromise advantage.

Better example from http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-need-for-speed-2015-face-off

A straight 1920x1080p vs 1600x900p with identical graphics details between PS4 and XBO i.e. "In our performance tests, the games are effectively like-for-like". With NFS 2015, PS4 has resolution advantage over XBO with no visual detail effect changes.

@tormentos said:

BY the way nothing you say there change anything DX12 already hit the xbox one and not only the game it hit is slower and with lower resolution on xbox one,but is also 720p when some people use to claim better ESRAM use would allow for higher resolution,the truth is the xbox one GPU is to weak and its hardware to cumbersome which add to the disparity even more.

While DX12 mitigates AMD CPU issues(feeding the GPU), DX12 wouldn't solve GPU's ALU bound issues.

Both MS and Sony has recognised they need GPU upgrade for their current consoles and both are working on it (with AMD). Sony's one of many reasons to shift towards X86 is for low cost hardware upgrade i.e. Polaris arrives regardless of Sony and Polaris is BC with older GCNs. With IBM, Sony needs pay for R&D processor core upgrades and NV CUDA GPU is a different beast from RSX/Geforce 7 GPUs (PS3 killed the abstraction layer).

1-Split render would have done nothing since what is does is mitigate the ESRAM problem fitting a 1080p frame buffer,Sniper Elite was already 1080p so it would have serve for nothing.

2-1,440,000 + 44 % = 2,073,600.

The results are clear enough. The 270/270X mostly delivers the 1080p60 experience we crave, but under stress both cards fall behind the PS4 performance. Bearing in mind that the AMD cards are still delivering a massive 44 per cent boost in resolution over the PS4 game

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-the-next-gen-digital-foundry-pc

What Digital foundry describe as a 44% gap in bF4 PC vs PS4 so yeah from 1080p to 900p there is a 44% gap in performance quite easy to see on any calculator 1,440,000 + 44% go ahead do it.

3-Which add to the xbox one disadvantage.

4-Which mean nothing since it is done to achieve 1080p on games something Turn 10 did with Forza 5 and 6,rendering the sky and anything that need fast bandwidth on DDR3 and the rest on ESRAM.

5-You have some memory problems let me refresh your memory lemming.

This is me on the the thread about 40% gain on xbox one.

This was you ^^ mister knows it all.

And then reality striked like i claimed it was for PC and only 7% for xbox one,you on a pathetic attend try to pass that 7% + another 7% from DX 11x that they won as 14% gain from DX12 which i also correct you on.

By the way That same ian bell confirmed that the 7% for DX12 if apply to the PS4 it would also yield a gain for the PS4,which proved that both version were on equal footing and that non used DX12 like code.

Ian Bell

PS4 is pretty good already but there is much more to come.

Let's roll a hypothetical. Say Sony were to emulate in some way the main benefits of DX12 on their machine. Well, we'd see a good improvement as our engine loves it.

Also, and less impressively, the 5ish% improvement we've found on Xbox One also adds a little to PS4.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?27276-POST-144-A-question-to-the-devs-about-the-frame-rate-issue&p=942715&viewfull=1#post942715

From PC developer it self DX12 code implemented on PS4 would have generated a good improvement,like i already claim non of the game used DX12 code and both games were deferred i already destroyed you on this argument

WTF are you smoking man no advantages.?

1080p vs 900p 44% resolution advantage on the spot.

Up to 17 FPS gap hell lets calculate now how much that gap is.

37 + 46% = 54.2 FPS so we are talking about an up to 46% more frames + 44% higher resolution + extra temporal AA which the xbox one lacks and which make it a jaggies fest.

That is a freaking huge gap there dude how in hell you can't see it is beyond logic.

Better example from http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-need-for-speed-2015-face-off

A straight 1920x1080p vs 1600x900p with identical graphics details between PS4 and XBO i.e. "In our performance tests, the games are effectively like-for-like". With NFS 2015, PS4 has resolution advantage over XBO with no visual detail effect changes.

Oh look how convenient chose a freaking game on a freaking series were even PC is hold back,remember Need for speed 30FPS cap fiasco on PC.? So i guess PC is to weak and the xbox one is as powerful because well it ran at 30FPS like PC.

Why don't you chose one of the many games recently to come out which show not only a resolution advantage but also a frames one to like SWBF3.?Or the Division,Track Mania.

Your love for the xbox one has you completely blinded dude.

@tormentos said:

@ronvalencia said:

1. When running the same shader program, ALU bound issues can not be workaround. Note that Shader Model 6 is "last" major software DX optimisation for GCN that runs Microsoft OS platforms

2. You stuffed-up you math with PS4's memory bandwidth.

IF there's a strict 30 fps or 60 fps requirement and running the same shader programs, you lower XBO resolution

For example,

1920x1080p = 2073600 pixels

1600x900p = 1440000 pixels

1440,000 is 69.4 percent of 2,073,600.

3. There's less performance pitfalls with fast CPU and straight 256bit 2 GB GDDR5-5500 when compared to XBO's setup. To perform well, XBO has a narrow path.

4. Split rendering removes repetitive tiling loop time wastage i.e. you spill framebuffer sections to DDR3 when you exceed 32MB ESRAM instead of doing repetitive tiling loop.

ESRAM has ~109 GB/s write is split up into four channels i.e. each channel has 27 GB/s and DDR3 memory pool is being use as another channel for memory writes. The idea is to reduce rendering time.

This workaround wouldn't solve ALU bound issues.

5. http://gamingbolt.com/project-cars-dev-ps4-single-core-speed-slower-than-high-end-pc-splitting-renderer-across-threads-challenging

PC's single rendering thread is being split into four rendering threads on PS4. This doesn't remove other task that needs to be deferred.

Your "ALREADY HAD DX12 like API" doesn't cover the areas that 4A Games's comment on DX12. Furthermore, Rise of Tomb Raider (10 Nov 2015) was the first XBO title with Async compute usage. SWBF was released later in November, 17th and it's was XBO's first DX12 title.

XBO's result being slower than PC's 7770 with fast Intel CPU result debunks your argument.

All these API changes mitigates AMD's CPU single thread issues.

PS4's temporal AA uses previous frame.

Pros and Cons with Project Cars' 'temporal aliasing'.

PS4's infamous AF problem strikes again. My point, PS4's Project Cars is not delivering PC style advantage over XBO i.e. no compromise advantage.

Better example from http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-need-for-speed-2015-face-off

A straight 1920x1080p vs 1600x900p with identical graphics details between PS4 and XBO i.e. "In our performance tests, the games are effectively like-for-like". With NFS 2015, PS4 has resolution advantage over XBO with no visual detail effect changes.

While DX12 mitigates AMD CPU issues(feeding the GPU), DX12 wouldn't solve GPU's ALU bound issues.

Both MS and Sony has recognised they need GPU upgrade for their current consoles and both are working on it (with AMD). Sony's one of many reasons to shift towards X86 is for low cost hardware upgrade i.e. Polaris arrives regardless of Sony and Polaris is BC with older GCNs. With IBM, Sony needs pay for R&D processor core upgrades and NV CUDA GPU is a different beast from RSX/Geforce 7 GPUs (PS3 killed the abstraction layer).

1-Split render would have done nothing since what is does is mitigate the ESRAM problem fitting a 1080p frame buffer,Sniper Elite was already 1080p so it would have serve for nothing.

2-1,440,000 + 44 % = 2,073,600.

The results are clear enough. The 270/270X mostly delivers the 1080p60 experience we crave, but under stress both cards fall behind the PS4 performance. Bearing in mind that the AMD cards are still delivering a massive 44 per cent boost in resolution over the PS4 game

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-the-next-gen-digital-foundry-pc

What Digital foundry describe as a 44% gap in bF4 PC vs PS4 so yeah from 1080p to 900p there is a 44% gap in performance quite easy to see on any calculator 1,440,000 + 44% go ahead do it.

3-Which add to the xbox one disadvantage.

4-Which mean nothing since it is done to achieve 1080p on games something Turn 10 did with Forza 5 and 6,rendering the sky and anything that need fast bandwidth on DDR3 and the rest on ESRAM.

5-You have some memory problems let me refresh your memory lemming.

@tormentos said:

The 40% gain is for PC and people believe that it is for xbox one,this is the same thing that happen with Fable a few months ago.

The developer doesn't say xbox one he say DX12 and when he was ask about the xbox one he banish,so the post didn't backfire.

This is me on the the thread about 40% gain on xbox one.

@ronvalencia said:

@tormentos:

The question AND topic are for frame rate issues for XBO and DX12 improvements.

PC (with AMD GPU)'s improvements are more than 40 percent i.e. just switching to Windows 10 gains about 40 percent fps increase while STILL running DX11.

AMD haven't released a driver specific for PCARS.

This was you ^^ mister knows it all.

And then reality striked like i claimed it was for PC and only 7% for xbox one,you on a pathetic attend try to pass that 7% + another 7% from DX 11x that they won as 14% gain from DX12 which i also correct you on.

By the way That same ian bell confirmed that the 7% for DX12 if apply to the PS4 it would also yield a gain for the PS4,which proved that both version were on equal footing and that non used DX12 like code.

Ian Bell

PS4 is pretty good already but there is much more to come.

Let's roll a hypothetical. Say Sony were to emulate in some way the main benefits of DX12 on their machine. Well, we'd see a good improvement as our engine loves it.

Also, and less impressively, the 5ish% improvement we've found on Xbox One also adds a little to PS4.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?27276-POST-144-A-question-to-the-devs-about-the-frame-rate-issue&p=942715&viewfull=1#post942715

From PC developer it self DX12 code implemented on PS4 would have generated a good improvement,like i already claim non of the game used DX12 code and both games were deferred i already destroyed you on this argument

WTF are you smoking man no advantages.?

1080p vs 900p 44% resolution advantage on the spot.

Up to 17 FPS gap hell lets calculate now how much that gap is.

37 + 46% = 54.2 FPS so we are talking about an up to 46% more frames + 44% higher resolution + extra temporal AA which the xbox one lacks and which make it a jaggies fest.

That is a freaking huge gap there dude how in hell you can't see it is beyond logic.

Better example from http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-need-for-speed-2015-face-off

A straight 1920x1080p vs 1600x900p with identical graphics details between PS4 and XBO i.e. "In our performance tests, the games are effectively like-for-like". With NFS 2015, PS4 has resolution advantage over XBO with no visual detail effect changes.

Oh look how convenient chose a freaking game on a freaking series were even PC is hold back,remember Need for speed 30FPS cap fiasco on PC.? So i guess PC is to weak and the xbox one is as powerful because well it ran at 30FPS like PC.

Why don't you chose one of the many games recently to come out which show not only a resolution advantage but also a frames one to like SWBF3.?Or the Division,Track Mania.

Your love for the xbox one has you completely blinded dude.

PC's Radeon HD 7770 reached 1920x1080p >30 fps. XBO version has 1600x900p at ~30 fps. There's a problem feeding the GPU on XBO.

PS4's "extra temporal AA" only blends with last frame with reduced motion vector blur effect (shader effects).

From http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-mad-max-performance-analysis

Performance also holds up well when the engine is pushed. Even storming a heavily armed outpost head-on and letting all hell break loose doesn't impact performance. In this scenario, defences are triggered and Max is soon surrounded by multiple explosions and other alpha effects - and while all this chaos is going on, frame-rates hold strongly to the 30fps target. In fact, Xbox One handles this scene flawlessly without skipping a beat, while on PS4 we see some sporadic drops down to 28fps along with a handful of torn frames. The minor dip in performance results in a small degree of judder if you pay attention closely to the screen, but it's easy to miss completely and gameplay is basically unaffected.

Again, PS4 is not delivering PC style non-compromise superiority over XBO.

On the PC, R7-260X's minimum frame rate never dipped bellow 30 fps while PS4's version dipped to 28 fps

Ian Bell

PS4 is pretty good already but there is much more to come.

Let's roll a hypothetical. Say Sony were to emulate in some way the main benefits of DX12 on their machine. Well, we'd see a good improvement as our engine loves it.

Also, and less impressively, the 5ish% improvement we've found on Xbox One also adds a little to PS4.

Again, DX12 only changes how the CPU feeds the GPU i.e. feeding GPU part occurs at the CPU side.

Furthermore, SMS only used ESRAM for storing deferred rendering targets (shading not applied until the second pass).

http://gamingbolt.com/project-cars-uses-xbox-one-esram-for-deferred-render-targets-careful-use-mitigates-ps4s-unified-memory-advantage

I haven't found any source in Project Cars XBO using split rendering or tile rendering.

Games such as Forza Horizon (XBO) and The Order(PS4) uses AMD's recommended Forward Rendering Plus methods.

You are ignoring the following points

In addition to EQAA, a 'temporal aliasing' pass is added to the Sony release, blending the previous frame with the current one to reduce flicker on moving objects. During gameplay this works surprisingly well in minimising pixel crawl, but the implementation here is a divisive one. The downside is simple: it creates a ghost image that's very easy to spot in static images, and the effect is noticeable in motion too.

According to the same developer post, a debug shot with this temporal pass disabled shows motion blur is indeed running separately on PS4 underneath - the same shader as used on PC and Xbox One. However, as the temporal filter adds a significant amount of blur to motion on its own, the team states it chose to reduce the velocity setting of the PS4's motion blur to compensate. It makes sense, but in terms of the overall effect, this hybrid setup doesn't come close to the Xbox One's smoother, cleaner gradient in motion. An option to turn the PS4's temporal pass off altogether would be a welcome step, especially if it's possible to return its motion blur velocity value to its original state.

Pros and Cons with Project Cars' 'temporal aliasing'.

Unfortunately, texture filtering isn't a high point for Project Cars. Ground textures on console make use of what appears a match for PC's 4x anisotropic filtering mode, though PS4 produces blurrier results than Xbox One overall. It's not a concern when a race kicks off, but waiting at a starting grid shows these crisp textures tailing off sharply in quality within a few metres - especially on Sony's console. PC surges forward here with its top-end 16x setting, and circuits like Willow Springs International Raceway benefit hugely from an ultra grass setting, increasing the range at which small foliage is rendered (where consoles use the PC's low setting).

PS4's infamous AF problem strikes again. My point, PS4's Project Cars is not delivering PC style advantage over XBO i.e. no compromise superiority.

So it comes to this you are an on denial blind lemming who will not admit being wrong even if MS it self came and slap you in the face and tell hey the PS4 is more than 40% stronger..

Look at how pathetic you are using a 2 frame drop on a poorly optimized game on PS4,what the fu** yeah like the freaking xbox one will be 1080p on a game like max mad which look like shit by the way,and still hold a 2 frame advantage over the PS4,this is another case of you ignoring that Mad max was freaking broken,and that is the only freaking way the xbox one can beat the PS4.

You used the Witcher 3 as example of how the CPU was the problem on PS4,when it reality is was CD Project coding the problem once fix the PS4 not only had 44% again resolution boost over the xbox one but also a frame advantage,so only a blind fool like your self would believe that Mad Max is faster on XBO for any reason other than being screw up,you even contradict your self,on one side you claim both at 1080p will give the edge to the PS4 but then you try to pass Mad Max as some kind of victory your problem is you are arguing like a damn lemming that is what lemmings do find a game were the xbox one perform better and act like the xbox one really has that advantage,is down right pathetic.

The fact that you claim Project cars is not delivering a PC like advantage over the XBO is a total joke even the i3 with a 750ti was falling behind the PS4,but still owning the xbox one.

44% resolution advantage.

Up to 46% frame advantage.

extra temporal to get rid of jaggies which are quite apparent on XBO.

And you say is not a PC like advantage...hahahaa

Forza Horizon look like total crap,is a racing game now lets look at another game with MSAAx4 that at least push graphics on xbox one..

Is Quantum Break... hahahahaa wait it is 720p.....lol but but but the xbox one can do 1080p msaax4 the PS4 can't..lol

What happen with Quantum break and why they have to rely on a cheap trick to try to fool people into thinking the games was 1080p,which is funny because i have see you avoid that thread like a plague,and you like technical threads..hahaha

Like i told you the only reason FH2 used msaa x4 and was 1080p is because the graphics were total rap and the frames were 30 as well,Forza 6 doesn't use MSAAx4 it can't..lol

Just to see how sad you are look at that last part,quote from DF were you bold what you wanted and IGNORED and bypass completely the part were it say ""It's not a concern when a race kicks off"" WTF man as if any one will not freaking read it,so you are complaining about something that is apparent only when you are start of the race waiting for it to start.. This is pathetic and show how far you will go to selectively show what you want ignoring anything else.

Because well you want to win the argument even if it make you look like a spam bot, you did the same with Metro developer only quoting what you like and completely ignoring everything else he claimed..lol

New game-changing update will double Xbox One performance

Writing on Neowin, Stardock founder and CEO Brad Wardell said DirectX 12 will bring multi-core processing to the Xbox One, allowing the console to offer support for Full HD (1080p) video games instead of just HD (720p) titles.

“Xbox One is the biggest beneficiary; it effectively gives every Xbox One owner a new GPU that is twice as fast as the old one,” he added.

http://bgr.com/2014/04/07/xbox-one-directx-12-update/

Hey what happen with this ^^ Ronvalencia? Remember how you use to quote Brad wardell religiously to claim resolution and frames would improve with DX12.?

So after all the sh** i was right? he was just doing PR for MS and DX12 and everything turn into salt all lies,remember how you use to claim that he was talking about his game.? lol Reality is he was very clear,reality is that your blonder here have being epic,and your constant riding of what some developer say making propaganda for the xbox have lead you to end owned more than a few times.

Now you can quote me with 300 gift or irrelevant crap,fact is the xbox one under performs vs a 7770 because the 7770 doesn't have ESRAM or DDR3 and since both GPU have about the same flop count the 7770 end on top.

@tormentos said:

So it comes to this you are an on denial blind lemming who will not admit being wrong even if MS it self came and slap you in the face and tell hey the PS4 is more than 40% stronger..

That's bullshit. Your "40 percent stronger" is without context.

@tormentos said:

Look at how pathetic you are using a 2 frame drop on a poorly optimized game on PS4,what the fu** yeah like the freaking xbox one will be 1080p on a game like max mad which look like shit by the way,and still hold a 2 frame advantage over the PS4,this is another case of you ignoring that Mad max was freaking broken,and that is the only freaking way the xbox one can beat the PS4.

Wrong, the programmers for Mad Max carefully managed their shader ALU budget for XBO, hence it's not a bottleneck for 30 fps target and they used their ROPS workaround with TMUs. If you are shader ALU bound, you will delay memory writes i.e. the programmers for Mad Max made sure XBO is memory bound instead of ALU bound.

@tormentos said:

You used the Witcher 3 as example of how the CPU was the problem on PS4,when it reality is was CD Project coding the problem once fix the PS4 not only had 44% again resolution boost over the xbox one but also a frame advantage,so only a blind fool like your self would believe that Mad Max is faster on XBO for any reason other than being screw up,you even contradict your self,on one side you claim both at 1080p will give the edge to the PS4 but then you try to pass Mad Max as some kind of victory your problem is you are arguing like a damn lemming that is what lemmings do find a game were the xbox one perform better and act like the xbox one really has that advantage,is down right pathetic.

What you don't get is alpha effects are bandwidth heavy effects. Alpha effects are mostly ROPS and memory bandwidth i.e. PS4's ALU advantage doesn't operate in this area.

There's a steep performance drop off for XBO when the programmer departs from XBO's narrow performance path i.e. 2 GB 256 bit GDDR5-5500 is more forgiving than 32 MB ESRAM.

Noob you like only sees contradictions while I see XBO and PS4 has different strengths and weaknesses. PS4 doesn't deliver 7950 BE superiority advantage over XBO.

7950 BE has superior ALU over XBO.

7950 BE has superior memory bandwidth over XBO and 7950 BE's 3 GB GDDR5 is large enough for relax texture streaming.

@tormentos said:

You used the Witcher 3 as example of how the CPU was the problem on PS4

Repost the link.

From http://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/witcher-3-runs-also-better-on-the-xboxone-32095062/?page=3

Quoting myself

While PS4 is an x86 system, wide multi-threading programming model is still a requirement to sufficiently drive the GPU.

PS4 is not a desktop class gaming PC with higher performance CPU.

9 months, 27 days ago

@tormentos said:

The fact that you claim Project cars is not delivering a PC like advantage over the XBO is a total joke even the i3 with a 750ti was falling behind the PS4,but still owning the xbox one.

One problem, PC is not limited with Intel Core i3 i.e. from Steam's Feb 2016 survey results, 46.76 percent has PCs with physical quad core or greater with a positive growth rate.

Your Project Cars results are invalid with recent Project Cars patches and Windows 10. Project Cars has a known problem with crappy draw call batching.

Need For Speed Rivals is AMD Gaming Evolved PC title i.e. it has enough CPU side optimisations for PC GCNs i.e. it's not going to step on AMD DX11 driver draw call limits.

@tormentos said:

Is Quantum Break... hahahahaa wait it is 720p.....lol but but but the xbox one can do 1080p msaax4 the PS4 can't..lol

Again, noob you like only sees contradictions while I see XBO and PS4 has different strengths and weaknesses. PS4 doesn't deliver 7950 BE superiority advantage over XBO.

7950 BE has superior ALU over XBO.

7950 BE has superior memory bandwidth over XBO and 7950 BE's 3 GB GDDR5 is large enough for relax texture streaming.

I don't game on XBO. My "Xbox" is actually Windows 10 PCs with either R9-290X factory OC (mod'ed into R9-390X**) or 980 Ti factory OC,

**R9-290X factory overclock 1040Mhz is 10 Mhz from R9-390X reference.

Star Dock's statement is only made for their game type. There are two massive RTS with AMD Game Evolved DX12 titles i.e. Ashes of Singularity and Total War Warhammer.

I have already shown you Need For Speed Rivals on XBO is under performing PC's 7770 1920x1080p results and could benefit CPU side optimisations. Alien Isolation is another example that shows XBO is under performing PC's 7770 1920x1080p results. Both games are AMD Gaming Evolved a PC titles.

Your "lol but but but the xbox one can do 1080p msaax4 the PS4 can't..lol" is load of bullshit.