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Lemmings say us cows are getting milked and blu ray isn´t needed... It was one of the reasons why I got a ps3. I like to think ahead, I didn´t buy my ps3 just for the moment I bought a 600$ console thinking of the future, let them bash blu ray, I am 100% certain there will be many many great games out for ps3 that take advantage of blu ray.
Edit: On a side note for all of you saying your fine with dvd9 for now, remember when your not fine with it, your wii/xbox won´t be able to do anything about that.
People bash blu-ray because it's the reason the PS3 is $600 and if sony's claims are right, than the DVD9 will not be enough for "next gen" games which puts alot of fear in people who don't have a PS3. I personally think it's a good bonus, but as for the DVD9 not being enough who knows? Games like Mass Effect and Geow look fantastic on DVD9s. The argument though is that the better looking games on DVD9s are shorter because many of them aim to be on one disc. DA_B0MBI agree with everything you just said. QFT
Some people can't stop and look more than a year or two ahead of them. But when your favorite console maker is known for short lifespans, why should you?TekkenMaster606
*Looks further into the future*
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6354225.stm
Who wants to bet that a new Xbox will be announced when this thing is finalised?
[QUOTE="makingmusic476"][QUOTE="LosDaddie"]You are so teh funny. :roll:The TC is totally correct.
DVD9 will be holding back PC gaming for years to come.
LosDaddie
YOu should be happy. You have convinced me that DVD9 will hold back PC gaming for years.
The pc is a horrible comparison, though. Nobody minds buying a pc game that has multiple discs, because after you install it, it only uses one disc, the play disc.This is why pc games only started coming on DVD9s within the past year, where as console games have been coming on DVD9s since the ps2 launched back in 2000. Yes, up until the past year, all pc games came on anywhere from 4-6, sometimes even 8 cds, yet now pc games come on dvds. They had transitional era games, as well, such as Company of Heroes, which could be bought in either the cd or dvd form
[QUOTE="LosDaddie"][QUOTE="makingmusic476"][QUOTE="LosDaddie"]You are so teh funny. :roll:The TC is totally correct.
DVD9 will be holding back PC gaming for years to come.
makingmusic476
YOu should be happy. You have convinced me that DVD9 will hold back PC gaming for years.
The pc is a horrible comparison, though. Nobody minds buying a pc game that has multiple discs, because after you install it, it only uses one disc, the play disc.This is why pc games only started coming on DVD9s within the past year, where as console games have been coming on DVD9s since the ps2 launched back in 2000. Yes, up until the past year, all pc games came on anywhere from 4-6, sometimes even 8 cds, yet now pc games come on dvds. They had transitional era games, as well, such as Company of Heroes, which could be bought in either the cd or dvd form
I don't understand why video game counsels doesnt install multiple disc or DVD9 like the PC?
[QUOTE="makingmusic476"][QUOTE="LosDaddie"][QUOTE="makingmusic476"][QUOTE="LosDaddie"]You are so teh funny. :roll:The TC is totally correct.
DVD9 will be holding back PC gaming for years to come.
letmeupgrade
YOu should be happy. You have convinced me that DVD9 will hold back PC gaming for years.
The pc is a horrible comparison, though. Nobody minds buying a pc game that has multiple discs, because after you install it, it only uses one disc, the play disc.This is why pc games only started coming on DVD9s within the past year, where as console games have been coming on DVD9s since the ps2 launched back in 2000. Yes, up until the past year, all pc games came on anywhere from 4-6, sometimes even 8 cds, yet now pc games come on dvds. They had transitional era games, as well, such as Company of Heroes, which could be bought in either the cd or dvd form
I don't understand why video game counsels doesnt install multiple disc or DVD9 like the PC?
This is because of a lack of hard drive space. The ps3 has a 60gb hdd. THat's pitifully small. My dad's 4 year old custom built pc had almost as much as that. Modern computers have at least a 150 gb hdd, and gaming pcs have even larger pcs than that. My pc, for instance, has a 320gb hdd, and its a year old. Hell, even laptops today come with about a 100 gb hdd,.[QUOTE="Darthmatt"]Face, sony included Blu-ray because they stand to make a fortune off BR movie royalties. makingmusic476Would you care to actually refute what the reputable developers quoted in the OP said, or are you just going to keep throwing out your opinion as if it really matters? :|I'm sure some devs are happy for the flexibility of all that disc space. But I stand by my statement. Sony stands to make a lot of money on B-R movie royalties if it becomes the standard HD format. blu-ray is Trojan horse move.
[QUOTE="makingmusic476"][QUOTE="Darthmatt"]Face, sony included Blu-ray because they stand to make a fortune off BR movie royalties. DarthmattWould you care to actually refute what the reputable developers quoted in the OP said, or are you just going to keep throwing out your opinion as if it really matters? :|I'm sure some devs are happy for the flexibility of all that disc space. But I stand by my statement. Sony stands to make a lot of money on B-R movie royalties if it becomes the standard system. blu-ray is Trojan horse move. THat was part of their reason, yes. But it doesn't change the fact that Blu-Ray is great for games and gamers, and that the extra $200 gets you a lot more than "just a movie player".
Fine ignore the developers. Keep playing games like Gears that only have an 8-hour singleplayer campaign and games where you have to wait for months after you get the game to download some new multiplayer maps to make up for the few that were given to you in the first place.makingmusic476
So then by your logic, Resistence Fall of Man should be the longest game ever right? wrong, RFOM SP is only 10 hours long so your logic fails
[QUOTE="Darthmatt"][QUOTE="makingmusic476"][QUOTE="Darthmatt"]Face, sony included Blu-ray because they stand to make a fortune off BR movie royalties. makingmusic476Would you care to actually refute what the reputable developers quoted in the OP said, or are you just going to keep throwing out your opinion as if it really matters? :|I'm sure some devs are happy for the flexibility of all that disc space. But I stand by my statement. Sony stands to make a lot of money on B-R movie royalties if it becomes the standard system. blu-ray is Trojan horse move. THat was part of their reason, yes. But it doesn't change the fact that Blu-Ray is great for games and gamers, and that the extra $200 gets you a lot more than "just a movie player". I just have a feeling Sony execs shoe-horned Blu-ray in because they were spending a lot of time and money on R&D. What came first? The PS3 or BR? Did SCE execs, and project engineers demand a larger HD format, or were they required to use BR because the HD format was already being developed? I personally think upper level execs saw adding BR to the PS3 more as a potential profit maker than an advantage to game development. Remeber, sony will reap billions on BR royalties if it becomes the future standard for home video. To them, adding a BR player to the PS3 helps start the adoption process. But that is just my opinion.
Considering the costs of developing games and the memory limitations in the consoles, I doubt we'll see a game where more than 9GB of true game data (not movies, not voices) must be accessible in an instant.Lemmings say us cows are getting milked and blu ray isn´t needed... It was one of the reasons why I got a ps3. I like to think ahead, I didn´t buy my ps3 just for the moment I bought a 600$ console thinking of the future, let them bash blu ray, I am 100% certain there will be many many great games out for ps3 that take advantage of blu ray.
Edit: On a side note for all of you saying your fine with dvd9 for now, remember when your not fine with it, your wii/xbox won´t be able to do anything about that.
Eddie-Vedder
[QUOTE="makingmusic476"][QUOTE="Darthmatt"][QUOTE="makingmusic476"][QUOTE="Darthmatt"]Face, sony included Blu-ray because they stand to make a fortune off BR movie royalties. DarthmattWould you care to actually refute what the reputable developers quoted in the OP said, or are you just going to keep throwing out your opinion as if it really matters? :|I'm sure some devs are happy for the flexibility of all that disc space. But I stand by my statement. Sony stands to make a lot of money on B-R movie royalties if it becomes the standard system. blu-ray is Trojan horse move. THat was part of their reason, yes. But it doesn't change the fact that Blu-Ray is great for games and gamers, and that the extra $200 gets you a lot more than "just a movie player". I just have a feeling Sony execs shoe-horned Blu-ray in because they were spending a lot of time and money on R&D. What came first? The PS3 or BR? Did SCE execs, and project engineers demand a larger HD format, or were they required to use BR because the HD format was already being developed? I personally think upper level execs saw adding BR to the PS3 more as a potential profit maker than an advantage to game development. Remeber, sony will reap billions on BR royalties if it becomes the future standard for home video. To them, adding a BR player to the PS3 helps start the adoption process. But that is just my opinion. Most likely they did. While it most likely was the primary reason behind including the Blu-Ray player, it wasn't the *only* reason. I'm sure they would've preffered more sales over more game content. Sony's reason for including the drive were far from altruisitc, but ultimately, it works out better for those willing to spend the extra cash.
See, the point of this thread isn't really about SOny's reasons for doing anything. Its about the fact that Blu-Ray IS needed for high definition gaming, and therefore the whole "blu-ray is not needed, they're just forcing me to spend $200 more" and "i like options" arguments are really just stupid.
See, the point of this thread isn't really about SOny's reasons for doing anything. Its about the fact that Blu-Ray IS needed for high definition gaming, and therefore the whole "blu-ray is not needed, they're just forcing me to spend $200 more" and "i like options" arguments are really just stupid. makingmusic476The argument is that the emboldened statement is disputable.
Would you care to actually refute what the reputable developers quoted in the OP said, or are you just going to keep throwing out your opinion as if it really matters? :|I'm sure some devs are happy for the flexibility of all that disc space. But I stand by my statement. Sony stands to make a lot of money on B-R movie royalties if it becomes the standard system. blu-ray is Trojan horse move. THat was part of their reason, yes. But it doesn't change the fact that Blu-Ray is great for games and gamers, and that the extra $200 gets you a lot more than "just a movie player". I just have a feeling Sony execs shoe-horned Blu-ray in because they were spending a lot of time and money on R&D. What came first? The PS3 or BR? Did SCE execs, and project engineers demand a larger HD format, or were they required to use BR because the HD format was already being developed? I personally think upper level execs saw adding BR to the PS3 more as a potential profit maker than an advantage to game development. Remeber, sony will reap billions on BR royalties if it becomes the future standard for home video. To them, adding a BR player to the PS3 helps start the adoption process. But that is just my opinion. Most likely they did. While it most likely was the primary reason behind including the Blu-Ray player, it wasn't the *only* reason. I'm sure they would've preffered more sales over more game content. Sony's reason for including the drive were far from altruisitc, but ultimately, it works out better for those willing to spend the extra cash.[QUOTE="Darthmatt"][QUOTE="makingmusic476"][QUOTE="Darthmatt"][QUOTE="makingmusic476"][QUOTE="Darthmatt"]Face, sony included Blu-ray because they stand to make a fortune off BR movie royalties. makingmusic476
See, the point of this thread isn't really about SOny's reasons for doing anything. Its about the fact that Blu-Ray IS needed for high definition gaming, and therefore the whole "blu-ray is not needed, they're just forcing me to spend $200 more" and "i like options" arguments are really just stupid.
I'm sure we will never really know one way or another if sony really had alterior motives for Blu-ray. I suspect the did from a economics point of gaining royalties from every BR disc sold. My thinking is it was forced from the top by execs who probably didn't know jack about gaming and what makes a game system good. But I think the SCE team did a good job of implementing BR into their system. Its just unfortunate that the mass market isn't there yet for the PS3's true HD capabilities. In that respect, if the higher price tag on the system due to BR results in conituing weak sales, it is ultimatly bad for gaming. Poor sales costs developers money they need to make up to cover higher development costs and can cause game makers to stop supporting a system or even go out of business.[QUOTE="Eddie-Vedder"]Considering the costs of developing games and the memory limitations in the consoles, I doubt we'll see a game where more than 9GB of true game data (not movies, not voices) must be accessible in an instant.Lemmings say us cows are getting milked and blu ray isn´t needed... It was one of the reasons why I got a ps3. I like to think ahead, I didn´t buy my ps3 just for the moment I bought a 600$ console thinking of the future, let them bash blu ray, I am 100% certain there will be many many great games out for ps3 that take advantage of blu ray.
Edit: On a side note for all of you saying your fine with dvd9 for now, remember when your not fine with it, your wii/xbox won´t be able to do anything about that.
HuusAsking
Well movies cgi scenes, voice acting is all part of games why hold back?
[QUOTE="LosDaddie"][QUOTE="makingmusic476"][QUOTE="LosDaddie"]You are so teh funny. :roll:The TC is totally correct.
DVD9 will be holding back PC gaming for years to come.
makingmusic476
YOu should be happy. You have convinced me that DVD9 will hold back PC gaming for years.
The pc is a horrible comparison, though. Nobody minds buying a pc game that has multiple discs, because after you install it, it only uses one disc, the play disc.This is why pc games only started coming on DVD9s within the past year, where as console games have been coming on DVD9s since the ps2 launched back in 2000. Yes, up until the past year, all pc games came on anywhere from 4-6, sometimes even 8 cds, yet now pc games come on dvds. They had transitional era games, as well, such as Company of Heroes, which could be bought in either the cd or dvd form
So how many PC games have shipped on multiple DVD9s?
[QUOTE="makingmusic476"][QUOTE="LosDaddie"][QUOTE="makingmusic476"][QUOTE="LosDaddie"]You are so teh funny. :roll:The TC is totally correct.
DVD9 will be holding back PC gaming for years to come.
LosDaddie
YOu should be happy. You have convinced me that DVD9 will hold back PC gaming for years.
The pc is a horrible comparison, though. Nobody minds buying a pc game that has multiple discs, because after you install it, it only uses one disc, the play disc.This is why pc games only started coming on DVD9s within the past year, where as console games have been coming on DVD9s since the ps2 launched back in 2000. Yes, up until the past year, all pc games came on anywhere from 4-6, sometimes even 8 cds, yet now pc games come on dvds. They had transitional era games, as well, such as Company of Heroes, which could be bought in either the cd or dvd form
So how many PC games have shipped on multiple DVD9s?
14.
HD-DVD was out b efore blu-ray was out. Why didn't they just include an HD-DVD drive in the PS3? Because SONY wanted to push their format so in the long run they could make money off it. It's a marketing ploy. Bigger space may be needed this gen but Sony put the BD-Rom drive in the Ps3 to push their format. Anyone who doesn't see that is completely blind and is fooling themselves into believing the Sony hype.BumFluff122The Royalties. Imagine if BR was the HD format for all home video, games and storage. Sony would get a piece of each disc sold. $$$$
How many PS3 games are taking advantage of Blu-ray?
What Dev would say more space is a bad thing?
Did Blur-ray add to the cost of the price of the PS3?
Is there any one who paid for the PS3 and is upset that the pricey technology of Blu-ray has yet to be utilized for games?
Is it wrong for the consumer to question if its wise to spend money on something that has no benefit atm?
1080p isn't needed. 720p isn't needed. Rumble isn't needed. Analog sticks aren't needed. 5.1 audio isn't needed. complex physics, stunning graphics, etc... none of those things are needed.
You can make great games without those things, remember Snes and Atari?
Now, when you have those things, and you make them avaliable to developers, they WILL put them to good use, or maybe some of them won't and will prefer to make a 2D game in the middle of the freaking 7th generation and still the game can be just as successful and criticaly acclaimed as those multimilion multiyear MGS/Halo mega productions.
It's about giving the developers tools. How they use, and how successful they are using them is up to their efforts and imagination.
[QUOTE="HuusAsking"][QUOTE="Eddie-Vedder"]Considering the costs of developing games and the memory limitations in the consoles, I doubt we'll see a game where more than 9GB of true game data (not movies, not voices) must be accessible in an instant.Lemmings say us cows are getting milked and blu ray isn´t needed... It was one of the reasons why I got a ps3. I like to think ahead, I didn´t buy my ps3 just for the moment I bought a 600$ console thinking of the future, let them bash blu ray, I am 100% certain there will be many many great games out for ps3 that take advantage of blu ray.
Edit: On a side note for all of you saying your fine with dvd9 for now, remember when your not fine with it, your wii/xbox won´t be able to do anything about that.
Eddie-Vedder
Well movies cgi scenes, voice acting is all part of games why hold back?
Well, with the consoles as good as they are, why not just render them realtime? Gears of War was able to get away with only minimal CGI, and Rockstar games are noteworthy for their minimal use of CGI as well (they usually only limit it to their title screens). And when you cut down those video clips, you suddenly have a lot more room to maneuver.But you hit a new problem when you start making bigger and bigger games, and this is a problem that technology can't readily fix because the problem is economic. It's Diminishing Returns. The retail price of games hasn't risen that much in ten years while inflation has dulled the developer's dollar. And considering how much it's taking to make the likes of Halo 3, imagine multiplying that by 3 to 5 to make a game that has 20-50GB of real game data. Not to mention the time constraints and the strain on the budget.1080p isn't needed. 720p isn't needed. Rumble isn't needed. Analog sticks aren't needed. 5.1 audio isn't needed. complex physics, stunning graphics, etc... none of those things are needed.
You can make great games without those things, remember Snes and Atari?
Now, when you have those things, and you make them avaliable to developers, they WILL put them to good use, or maybe some of them won't and will prefer to make a 2D game in the middle of the freaking 7th generation and still the game can be just as successful and criticaly acclaimed as those multimilion multiyear MGS/Halo mega productions.
It's about giving the developers tools. How they use, and how successful they are using them is up to their efforts and imagination.
lordxymor
You hit the nail on the head.1080p isn't needed. 720p isn't needed. Rumble isn't needed. Analog sticks aren't needed. 5.1 audio isn't needed. complex physics, stunning graphics, etc... none of those things are needed.
You can make great games without those things, remember Snes and Atari?
Now, when you have those things, and you make them avaliable to developers, they WILL put them to good use, or maybe some of them won't and will prefer to make a 2D game in the middle of the freaking 7th generation and still the game can be just as successful and criticaly acclaimed as those multimilion multiyear MGS/Halo mega productions.
It's about giving the developers tools. How they use, and how successful they are using them is up to their efforts and imagination.
lordxymor
[QUOTE="lordxymor"]But you hit a new problem when you start making bigger and bigger games, and this is a problem that technology can't readily fix because the problem is economic. It's Diminishing Returns. The retail price of games hasn't risen that much in ten years while inflation has dulled the developer's dollar. And considering how much it's taking to make the likes of Halo 3, imagine multiplying that by 3 to 5 to make a game that has 20-50GB of real game data. Not to mention the time constraints and the strain on the budget. HOw much more money does it cost to create a higher resolution texture, or an uncompressed audio clip? Honestly, they're making games nowadays shorter due to the lack of space. Gears of War only cost $10 million to make, compared to other, lesser games like Lost PLanet that cost $20 million. Games really aren't that more expensive these days. Games are going up maybe 30-50% in cost this generation, if that.1080p isn't needed. 720p isn't needed. Rumble isn't needed. Analog sticks aren't needed. 5.1 audio isn't needed. complex physics, stunning graphics, etc... none of those things are needed.
You can make great games without those things, remember Snes and Atari?
Now, when you have those things, and you make them avaliable to developers, they WILL put them to good use, or maybe some of them won't and will prefer to make a 2D game in the middle of the freaking 7th generation and still the game can be just as successful and criticaly acclaimed as those multimilion multiyear MGS/Halo mega productions.
It's about giving the developers tools. How they use, and how successful they are using them is up to their efforts and imagination.
HuusAsking
As Mark Rein said in the same article that i quoted in the OP, "I hate to hear people talk about "We're going to charge more because it costs more". Sure, it costs more because you're developing using better technology and making better games. Not just because you're wasting money developing your own tools - there's a lot of people that are doing that.
You could consider me a little disingenuous on this because I've got technology to sell to people, but there's other technology you can buy, not just ours. People who are trying to re-invent the wheel are spending way more money than they should. Our own games, we're seeing a 30-50% increase in cost, but we're expanding our teams and make much better games.
UT 2007 is way more detailed than any UT games we've done prior to this title. It's not processed three times, and it's not costing us 30 million USD. There's no excuse for us to raise the price. I hope retail and rental dovetail into that and hopefully reduce the people playing our games that aren't paying us. When we worked with Atari, they sold our games for $39 and we actually agree with that policy. Reduce the price of our game, not increase it."
1080p isn't needed. 720p isn't needed. Rumble isn't needed. Analog sticks aren't needed. 5.1 audio isn't needed. complex physics, stunning graphics, etc... none of those things are needed.
You can make great games without those things, remember Snes and Atari?
Now, when you have those things, and you make them avaliable to developers, they WILL put them to good use, or maybe some of them won't and will prefer to make a 2D game in the middle of the freaking 7th generation and still the game can be just as successful and criticaly acclaimed as those multimilion multiyear MGS/Halo mega productions.
It's about giving the developers tools. How they use, and how successful they are using them is up to their efforts and imagination.
lordxymor
!
HOw much more money does it cost to create a higher resolution texture, or an uncompressed audio clip? Honestly, they're making games nowadays shorter due to the lack of space. Gears of War only cost $10 million to make, compared to other, lesser games like Lost PLanet that cost $20 million. Games really aren't that more expensive these days. Games are going up maybe 30-50% in cost this generation, if that.makingmusic476I'm thinking more along the lines of, "How much more is it going to cost to expand a city or a gaming universe of some 24 detailed planets to one three to five times it is now?" That's when you start going into honest usage of resources beyond DVD's capability to handle. Now who's got the time and the budget to make a game that absolutely cannot be done any other way but with a media larger than DVD (meaning there's nothing left to trim or compress that can take it under the limit, and cutting would kill the game)?
Compression will always be with us in games, if for no other reason than because optical media have such a slow transfer rate compared to hard drives. You want compressed data even on BD because compared to hard drives, 72Mbit/sec is a joke (to compare, SATA tops out at 150MByte/sec). There's also the matter of that RAM limitation, so you want to economize to maximize the size of your scene (especially if you plan to take the game online--you can't "stream" online, which is why Lair has no multiplayer). We know that because Tim Sweeney (from the UT3 team--and an actual programmer unlike Mark Rein) said they had to downsize UT3 for consoles because of the RAM limit.
At then end of the PS1 era CD's were used to their fullest, At the end of the PS2 era DVD's were used to their fullest and at the end of this gen Blue-ray discs will be used to their fullest.
Sony definitely made a smart decision by allowing developers more space when creating games. I hate when people think Sony just put in Blue-ray to push hi-def movies but in actual fact Blue-ray is benificial to games also.
great topic by the way :)
1080p isn't needed. 720p isn't needed. Rumble isn't needed. Analog sticks aren't needed. 5.1 audio isn't needed. complex physics, stunning graphics, etc... none of those things are needed.
You can make great games without those things, remember Snes and Atari?
Now, when you have those things, and you make them avaliable to developers, they WILL put them to good use, or maybe some of them won't and will prefer to make a 2D game in the middle of the freaking 7th generation and still the game can be just as successful and criticaly acclaimed as those multimilion multiyear MGS/Halo mega productions.
It's about giving the developers tools. How they use, and how successful they are using them is up to their efforts and imagination.
lordxymor
Yeah, but I mean as tech becomes available what's expected in games rises and the standard of games rises. Imagine if something like GeoW was out when we were playing Atari
Fine ignore the developers. Keep playing games like Gears that only have an 8-hour singleplayer campaign and games where you have to wait for months after you get the game to download some new multiplayer maps to make up for the few that were given to you in the first place.makingmusic476
I didn't read this whole thing so I don't know if anyone said this already, but Gears originally had more maps than RFOM. Why are you bragging about RFOM having 6 maps but saying gears had so few?
That doesn't really have anything to do with the main topic, but it shows how biased this guy is.
Hehehehee... Only Kojimasan would be bold enough to say that BD was too SMALL and be creative enough to actualy FILL a BD. I love him:)
[QUOTE="makingmusic476"]Fine ignore the developers. Keep playing games like Gears that only have an 8-hour singleplayer campaign and games where you have to wait for months after you get the game to download some new multiplayer maps to make up for the few that were given to you in the first place.jcant
I didn't read this whole thing so I don't know if anyone said this already, but Gears originally had more maps than RFOM. Why are you bragging about RFOM having 6 maps but saying gears had so few?
That doesn't really have anything to do with the main topic, but it shows how biased this guy is.
Hey, i never said Resistance had more or less mp maps than Gears. However, the singleplayer is a different story.Oh, and who resurrected this rather old thread of mine?
People bash blu-ray because it's the reason the PS3 is $600 and if sony's claims are right, than the DVD9 will not be enough for "next gen" games which puts alot of fear in people who don't have a PS3. I personally think it's a good bonus, but as for the DVD9 not being enough who knows? Games like Mass Effect and Geow look fantastic on DVD9s. The argument though is that the better looking games on DVD9s are shorter because many of them aim to be on one disc. DA_B0MB
Two words: Hell no. BLu ray is 125. PS3 manufacturing is 850 USD. Blame Sony for creating the bloat station 3.
Secondly, at 20 USD a disckretail, and at the least 10 USD a disk wholesale, its only hurting games...
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