Games With Bad Gameplay Are Masterpieces Now? The Disease of Cinematic Design

[QUOTE="UnrealLegend"]

[QUOTE="Master_ShakeXXX"]This is one of the reasons why I loved Vanquish so much. It was devoted almost 100% to it's gameplay (and thankfully it's gameplay is godlike). It didn't need to try to be a movie like most games these days. Master_ShakeXXX

Um... did you just happen to forget about all those quicktime events that Vanquish has?

I'm aware that it's nowhere near as cinematic as those other games, but it clearly has moments that restrict frredom and movement. Sure, they're fairly infrequent, but they're still there.

[QUOTE="15strong"]

Oh it is definetley the point. DL has an image of what a game should be in is head, and that there is only one possible wya to create a good gaming expirience. God forbid we have a game with cinematic feel. I have asked this four time and no one has answered me. How is it possible to have a game like uncharted without directing the player throughout the game? Without set pieces? It is not possible, and that is the reason we need cinematic games.

mmmwksil

Again, not the point of the thread.

And I'm against cinematic games myself, so I'm not the person to answer that question. :P But as of now, there is no other way to achieve that effect. Which makes it hard for some (myself included) to see these "games" as games.

As I have been saying, it is your own judgement and thought process that creates this dilemma. Are you really saying u3 is not a game? If you think that, everythign you say form now on is completely invalid in my mind. And we should just throw the amazng gaming expiriences that u3 offers that no other game can achieve becuae it is not "game" enough for some. Get the **** outa here!

you apparently must prefer Nintendo re-hashes to cinematic experiences with amazing acting and graphics :lol:

so I ask a simple question. "what is wrong with U3 gunplay?" and you guys basically come back at me with..... absolutely nothing

i wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt and not just assume that you dont know what youre talking about, but you dont even want to try.

arbitor365

As I have been saying, it is your own judgement and thought process that creates this dilemma. Are you really saying u3 is not a game? If you think that, everythign you say form now on is completely invalid in my mind. And we should just throw the amazng gaming expiriences that u3 offers that no other game can achieve becuae it is not "game" enough for some. Get the **** outa here!

15strong

It's not "game" enough for me. So I don't play it. I don't like it. I don't play it. Simple as that.

I'm not saying it should stop, I'm just hoping all of gaming doesn't follow this trend. If you enjoy it, more power to you.

Really, let's compare FFVII with FFXIII.

FFVII - In the first Mako reactor, Barret stops to take 30 seconds to explain to Cloud that "the planet is dying."

FFXIII - At the beginning of Ch. 5 Lightning takes 30 seconds to give Hope advice or whatever.

The difference? In the first one, barret just walks out of cloud and they exchange lines with text boxes, the player skips through them, and it's done. The second, it pulls up a full blown cutscene with actions, movement, voices, camera angles. Somehow, the 2nd is a travesty.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="forgot_it"]Most people play Battlefield for the multi-player component though don't they? The cinematic stuffs were added in to draw people away from COD. I listed a lot of Nintendo titles because you can usually count on them for quality but if you'd like to exclude Ninty and Blizzard we've still seen: Radiant Historia, Little Big Planet 2, Forza 4, Marvel VS Capcom 3, Okamiden, Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky, Dead Island, and Disgaea 4 and more.

forgot_it

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="Pug-Nasty"]

Saying your fine with the gameplay means you find it good, but think it could be improved. That's not the same thing, especially when your average TPS has ass gameplay. That's exactly where you twist it around, and exactly why this thread fails epicly.

DarkLink77

No, saying your fine with the gameplay means it just works. It's nothing special, new, interesting, or bad. Just because your average TPS might have ass gameplay doesn't excuse the rest of them.

I can, and do, say that about every game I play, just exchance "gunplay" with whatever the main mechanic of the game is. The only people I've seen have issues with Uncharted are people who can't line up their shots, which is why I assume you need auto aim. A lot of people do, so I don't think it's particularly insulting.

You said, in your OP, that "games with bad gunplay are masterpieces?" That's twisting what they said, because you can't find any professional opinions that agree with your ridiculous assessment that leaving old game design behind is a bad thing. There's a reason it gets left behind, because it's bad.

It's so funny how people keep saying we don't get the point. We do. DL and others hate cinematic games essentially because they limit gameplay and freedom. He uses the UC3 review because the reviewers loved it yet said the gameplay is average. This is proof that the industry is going down the wrong path and so on and so forth.

How is this NOT an example of taking your own idea of the perfect game and throwing a fit if something that doesn't fit that mold gets praise? Now if almost every major release fit this mold, then fine. You'd have a point. Yet, instead we see PLENTY of gaming experiences available for those who aren't interested in cinematic games.

Really, let's compare FFVII with FFXIII.

FFVII - In the first Mako reactor, Barret stops to take 30 seconds to explain to Cloud that "the planet is dying."

FFXIII - At the beginning of Ch. 5 Lightning takes 30 seconds to give Hope advice or whatever.

The difference? In the first one, barret just walks out of cloud and they exchange lines with text boxes, the player skips through them, and it's done. The second, it pulls up a full blown cutscene with actions, movement, voices, camera angles. Somehow, the 2nd is a travesty.

hakanakumono

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

To deconstruct:

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with everything that is wrong with video games "journalism" and the industry in general in one fell swoop. (In your opinion)

So while every single editor admitted that the shooting ( you know, the meat and bones of the gameplay)was not all that great (one outright hated it, one said that "tolerate" was a good word), each and every one of them loved the game, and three called it a masterpiece.

A masterpiece. With bad shooting. (Only one editor said they hated it, the rest were fine with it. Show me the math where this equates to the shooting being bad, not just fine.)

But it gets better. When asked what their favorite part of the game was, the near-universal reaction was: "Oh, the characters and the performances." (As opposed to games with horrible voice acting, lifeless characters you don't care about.)

So what we have here, ladies and gentlemen, are professional reviewers praising a game that is completely unoriginal (in your opinion) and, lets be honest, doesn't have amazing writing (your opinion, yet again), as a masterpiece, even though they admit the gameplay (the shooting is only part of the gameplay, movement, interaction, and challenge also factor in) isn't that great.

Uh-huh.

And it's not just IGN doing this. This is an epidemic. A disease of the medium. We want movies with quick-time events now. (we do? I don't remember all of us getting together and saying that)

I mean, did we all just forget what good movies are? Did we suddenly lower our standards in film so much that we had to turn to games? Are all game developers just wanna-be directors that didn't have the talent to make it in the big leagues? (how dramatic! you're assuming everyone's own opinions and overstating the problem as you see it to try to further your own argument.)

Remember back in the day we when praised games for, y'know, being games, and not trying to be B-movies? (like when Half-Life ripped off Stephen King's short story, The Mist, to create an immersive environment in which to shoot things) Remember when we loved being given more gameplay options, and didn't like being railroaded through a game with as little involvement as possible because the developer treated the player as a necessary inconvenience? (plenty of older games didn't give us those options, so it is a selective example of game design being used to make a blanket statement) Remember when we recognized good game design?

So my question is: What the f*** happened? (Nothing. There are plenty of games that don't do what you're saying this game does, though clearly it is just your own opinion)

NEStorianPriest

BTW if this is a troll thread then kudos. Nothing like free time to waste time.

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

[QUOTE="mmmwksil"]

That isn't the point of this thread. Never was. :?

People just jumped at the opportunity to white knight for UC3. Because DL made a thread and used it as an example for something else.

DarkLink77

Oh it is definetley the point. DL has an image of what a game should be in is head, and that there is only one possible wya to create a good gaming expirience. God forbid we have a game with cinematic feel. I have asked this four time and no one has answered me. How is it possible to have a game like uncharted without directing the player throughout the game? Without set pieces? It is not possible, and that is the reason we need cinematic games.

Still haven't answered me. I'm talking about cinematic games and the results of leashggn the player and dragging them through an expirience. Enlighten me on what I'm not getting. Please. You say that we are restricting the players options. Right. Am I getting it? I am merely using U3 has a counter argument. And can you please answer my queation.

It's not. I'm not talking about the cutscenes, I am talking about the game design. FFXIII is linear. FFVII is not. Simple.charizard1605

You call it linear, I call it streamlined. :P

I'm not saying it should stop, I'm just hoping all of gaming doesn't follow this trend. If you enjoy it, more power to you.mmmwksil

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="charizard1605"] And there would be no problem with there being OPTIONS in the gaming market in general. That is, if people who want to feel like they're playing a movie have an option to play that kind of a game, what's wrong with it, right? The problem is that this kind of guided design mentality is bleeding into every single game possible, and it is slowly but surely limiting player control and interaction, leading us with an interactive movie that has no replay value beyond the obvious multiplayer mode reskin. Look at Call of Duty, for instance. Look at Gears of War. Look at Killzone 3. Look at Battlefield 3. Look at Metroid: Other M and Prime 3: Corruption. Look at God of War III. It's even bleeding into RPGs. Mass Effect 1, for all its faults, was an RPG that allowed freedom of movement. Look at Mass Effect 2 in contrast to Mass Effect 1. And perhaps the worst offender of them all, look at Dragon Age II. Even JRPGs are suffering from this. Look at Final Fantasy XIII. In this scenario, for us people who WANT control in our games, there are no options, because cinematic games are taking over. Wouldn't you say that is a problem. How long is it before we have a heavily guided cinematic platformer?charizard1605

First of all, FFXIII should have had more story. Part of the problem with it is that it didn't take as much time to develop the story as predecessors. Guess what? FFVII, VIII, IX, and X all had longer cutscenes than FFXIII. The problem with FFXIII was the pacing and the level design. The game has plenty of scenes, but most of them try to fit in 60 seconds and the result is terrible. There's no time to explain what the **** is happening, let alone let scenes unfold naturally. Less than 20% of the game is composed of cutscenes. Maybe even less than 10%, if you timed it (the entirety of Ch. 5 is under 5 min - I timed it). Meanwhile I would guess that for FFVII through FFIX, story probably takes up at least 30%.

Second, yes there a lot of games where thmoe story takes up a big portion of the gameplay. But saying "they're taking over the industry!" is hyperbole. I don't know if I would consider any JRPG this gen to be cutscene heavy. JRPGs. Certainly not FF Type-0, which I'm playing now.

FFXIII's design mentality is a result of its development hell and Square taking fan feedback into account. In interviews, Square revealed that the areas were originally larger and more expansive, but they made them more linear so players wouldn't "get lost." Wanna know why? People complained about "getting lost" in FFXII.

Really, the problems with FFXIII have little to do with it being too cinematic. It was just the design. Like you said, it played like a corridor shooter RPG.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

No, saying your fine with the gameplay means it just works. It's nothing special, new, interesting, or bad. Just because your average TPS might have ass gameplay doesn't excuse the rest of them.

Pug-Nasty

I can, and do, say that about every game I play, just exchance "gunplay" with whatever the main mechanic of the game is. The only people I've seen have issues with Uncharted are people who can't line up their shots, which is why I assume you need auto aim. A lot of people do, so I don't think it's particularly insulting.

You said, in your OP, that "games with bad gunplay are masterpieces?" That's twisting what they said, because you can't find any professional opinions that agree with your ridiculous assessment that leaving old game design behind is a bad thing. There's a reason it gets left behind, because it's bad.

[QUOTE="charizard1605"]It's not. I'm not talking about the cutscenes, I am talking about the game design. FFXIII is linear. FFVII is not. Simple.mmmwksil

You call it linear, I call it streamlined. :P

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Really, let's compare FFVII with FFXIII.

FFVII - In the first Mako reactor, Barret stops to take 30 seconds to explain to Cloud that "the planet is dying."

FFXIII - At the beginning of Ch. 5 Lightning takes 30 seconds to give Hope advice or whatever.

The difference? In the first one, barret just walks out of cloud and they exchange lines with text boxes, the player skips through them, and it's done. The second, it pulls up a full blown cutscene with actions, movement, voices, camera angles. Somehow, the 2nd is a travesty.

charizard1605

I know, but plenty of people do.

And FFVII is most certainly linear. The entire Mako reactor area in the beginning of FFVII is just as linear as locations in FFXIII. It's all perception. Not

[QUOTE="charizard1605"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

First of all, FFXIII should have had more story. Part of the problem with it is that it didn't take as much time to develop the story as predecessors. Guess what? FFVII, VIII, IX, and X all had longer cutscenes than FFXIII. The problem with FFXIII was the pacing and the level design. The game has plenty of scenes, but most of them try to fit in 60 seconds and the result is terrible. There's no time to explain what the **** is happening, let alone let scenes unfold naturally. Less than 20% of the game is composed of cutscenes. Maybe even less than 10%, if you timed it (the entirety of Ch. 5 is under 5 min - I timed it). Meanwhile I would guess that for FFVII through FFIX, story probably takes up at least 30%.

Second, yes there a lot of games where thmoe story takes up a big portion of the gameplay. But saying "they're taking over the industry!" is hyperbole. I don't know if I would consider any JRPG this gen to be cutscene heavy. JRPGs. Certainly not FF Type-0, which I'm playing now.

hakanakumono

FFXIII's design mentality is a result of its development hell and Square taking fan feedback into account. In interviews, Square revealed that the areas were originally larger and more expansive, but they made them more linear so players wouldn't "get lost." Wanna know why? People complained about "getting lost" in FFXII.

Really, the problems with FFXIII have little to do with it being too cinematic. It was just the design. Like you said, it played like a corridor shooter RPG.

The irony present in those two sentences is palpable.

It's so funny how people keep saying we don't get the point. We do. DL and others hate cinematic games essentially because they limit gameplay and freedom. He uses the UC3 review because the reviewers loved it yet said the gameplay is average. This is proof that the industry is going down the wrong path and so on and so forth.

How is this NOT an example of taking your own idea of the perfect game and throwing a fit if something that doesn't fit that mold gets praise? Now if almost every major release fit this mold, then fine. You'd have a point. Yet, instead we see PLENTY of gaming experiences available for those who aren't interested in cinematic games.

darktx2005

It's not variety that's the problem, just the fact that reviewers are calling the game "perfect" despite it lacking any depth in gameplay. So if the gameplay (the whole point of playing the game) is bad, you'd think that the reviewers would give it a low score and bash it. Instead of doing that, they dismiss the gameplay problem and say that the characters, writing, and cinematic moments make the game amazing. DL is saying that these are all elements of a movie, not a game therefore they shouldn't be put on a higher pedestal than gameplay.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Really, let's compare FFVII with FFXIII.

FFVII - In the first Mako reactor, Barret stops to take 30 seconds to explain to Cloud that "the planet is dying."

FFXIII - At the beginning of Ch. 5 Lightning takes 30 seconds to give Hope advice or whatever.

The difference? In the first one, barret just walks out of cloud and they exchange lines with text boxes, the player skips through them, and it's done. The second, it pulls up a full blown cutscene with actions, movement, voices, camera angles. Somehow, the 2nd is a travesty.

charizard1605

I know, but plenty of people do.

And FFVII is most certainly linear. The entire Mako reactor area in the beginning of FFVII is just as linear as locations in FFXIII. It's just that FFVII is not as linear as FFXIII overall.

[QUOTE="charizard1605"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

First of all, FFXIII should have had more story. Part of the problem with it is that it didn't take as much time to develop the story as predecessors. Guess what? FFVII, VIII, IX, and X all had longer cutscenes than FFXIII. The problem with FFXIII was the pacing and the level design. The game has plenty of scenes, but most of them try to fit in 60 seconds and the result is terrible. There's no time to explain what the **** is happening, let alone let scenes unfold naturally. Less than 20% of the game is composed of cutscenes. Maybe even less than 10%, if you timed it (the entirety of Ch. 5 is under 5 min - I timed it). Meanwhile I would guess that for FFVII through FFIX, story probably takes up at least 30%.

Second, yes there a lot of games where thmoe story takes up a big portion of the gameplay. But saying "they're taking over the industry!" is hyperbole. I don't know if I would consider any JRPG this gen to be cutscene heavy. JRPGs. Certainly not FF Type-0, which I'm playing now.

hakanakumono

FFXIII's design mentality is a result of its development hell and Square taking fan feedback into account. In interviews, Square revealed that the areas were originally larger and more expansive, but they made them more linear so players wouldn't "get lost." Wanna know why? People complained about "getting lost" in FFXII.

Really, the problems with FFXIII have little to do with it being too cinematic. It was just the design. Like you said, it played like a corridor shooter RPG.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="charizard1605"] Yes, FFXIII did not have as much story or character development. But it was highly linear. It played like a corridor shooter without the guns. That is what I am talking about, the design mentality. There is nothing wrong with a game having cutscenes in and of itself. Like you said, any of the older Final Fantasy games had an overload of those, and yet they were all excellent. And the problem is, it is not just hyperbole. While non cinematic games still exist (just this year, I can name Skyrim, Skyward Sword, Rayman Origins, Witcher 2, Sonic Generations, Kirby's Return to Dreamland, Pokemon Black/White, Super Mario 3D Land and Dark Souls), the problem is that, with few exceptions, those games don't do as well as cinematic ones. The industry as a whole moves to where the money is, and that is increasingly in cinematic games. Slowly but surely, they are taking over. Funny that you should mention Type 0, because handhelds are now the last haven for gameplay centric games. A reason for the DS and PSP having been my primary gaming platforms for the last seven years.DarkLink77

FFXIII's design mentality is a result of its development hell and Square taking fan feedback into account. In interviews, Square revealed that the areas were originally larger and more expansive, but they made them more linear so players wouldn't "get lost." Wanna know why? People complained about "getting lost" in FFXII.

Really, the problems with FFXIII have little to do with it being too cinematic. It was just the design. Like you said, it played like a corridor shooter RPG.

The irony present in those two sentences is palpable.

You could take all of the cutscenes out of FFXIII and it would still play like a corridor shooter RPG.

[QUOTE="darktx2005"]

It's so funny how people keep saying we don't get the point. We do. DL and others hate cinematic games essentially because they limit gameplay and freedom. He uses the UC3 review because the reviewers loved it yet said the gameplay is average. This is proof that the industry is going down the wrong path and so on and so forth.

How is this NOT an example of taking your own idea of the perfect game and throwing a fit if something that doesn't fit that mold gets praise? Now if almost every major release fit this mold, then fine. You'd have a point. Yet, instead we see PLENTY of gaming experiences available for those who aren't interested in cinematic games.

XVision84

It's not variety that's the problem, just the fact that reviewers are calling the game "perfect" despite it lacking any depth in gameplay. So if the gameplay (the whole point of playing the game) is bad, you'd think that the reviewers would give it a low score and bash it. Instead of that, they dismiss the gameplay problem and say that the characters, writing, and cinematic moments make the game amazing. DL is saying that these are all elements of a movie, not a game therefore they shouldn't be put on a higher pedestal than gameplay.

[QUOTE="15strong"]

As I have been saying, it is your own judgement and thought process that creates this dilemma. Are you really saying u3 is not a game? If you think that, everythign you say form now on is completely invalid in my mind. And we should just throw the amazng gaming expiriences that u3 offers that no other game can achieve becuae it is not "game" enough for some. Get the **** outa here!

mmmwksil

It's not "game" enough for me. So I don't play it. I don't like it. I don't play it. Simple as that.

I'm not saying it should stop, I'm just hoping all of gaming doesn't follow this trend. If you enjoy it, more power to you.

And my point really comes down to that all gaming is expanding. Both "cinematic" and "traditional" gaming. If you really looka at all the games that came out this year, you would see this. I like both and appreciate both. I just think many of the arguments being made have no hard facts behind them or much thought. The examples are terrible. It seems to come down to, "I don't like, so I will throw a fit becuase it isn't goign the way I want it". I disagree but according to some "I just don't get it."

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Really, let's compare FFVII with FFXIII.

FFVII - In the first Mako reactor, Barret stops to take 30 seconds to explain to Cloud that "the planet is dying."

FFXIII - At the beginning of Ch. 5 Lightning takes 30 seconds to give Hope advice or whatever.

The difference? In the first one, barret just walks out of cloud and they exchange lines with text boxes, the player skips through them, and it's done. The second, it pulls up a full blown cutscene with actions, movement, voices, camera angles. Somehow, the 2nd is a travesty.

charizard1605

FFVII is as much linear as your average Zelda game.

Which isn't saying alot.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

FFXIII's design mentality is a result of its development hell and Square taking fan feedback into account. In interviews, Square revealed that the areas were originally larger and more expansive, but they made them more linear so players wouldn't "get lost." Wanna know why? People complained about "getting lost" in FFXII.

Really, the problems with FFXIII have little to do with it being too cinematic. It was just the design. Like you said, it played like a corridor shooter RPG.

hakanakumono

The irony present in those two sentences is palpable.

You could take all of the cutscenes out of FFXIII and it would still play like a corridor shooter RPG.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="charizard1605"] Yes, FFXIII did not have as much story or character development. But it was highly linear. It played like a corridor shooter without the guns. That is what I am talking about, the design mentality. There is nothing wrong with a game having cutscenes in and of itself. Like you said, any of the older Final Fantasy games had an overload of those, and yet they were all excellent. And the problem is, it is not just hyperbole. While non cinematic games still exist (just this year, I can name Skyrim, Skyward Sword, Rayman Origins, Witcher 2, Sonic Generations, Kirby's Return to Dreamland, Pokemon Black/White, Super Mario 3D Land and Dark Souls), the problem is that, with few exceptions, those games don't do as well as cinematic ones. The industry as a whole moves to where the money is, and that is increasingly in cinematic games. Slowly but surely, they are taking over. Funny that you should mention Type 0, because handhelds are now the last haven for gameplay centric games. A reason for the DS and PSP having been my primary gaming platforms for the last seven years.charizard1605

FFXIII's design mentality is a result of its development hell and Square taking fan feedback into account. In interviews, Square revealed that the areas were originally larger and more expansive, but they made them more linear so players wouldn't "get lost." Wanna know why? People complained about "getting lost" in FFXII.

Really, the problems with FFXIII have little to do with it being too cinematic. It was just the design. Like you said, it played like a corridor shooter RPG.

I just don't think its true. This may be because I mostly just play Japanese games. But the trend seems to be going in the opposite direction, from what I've seen.

You guys care too much about what reviewers think is a "masterpiece" or whatnot.

Just goes to show how much all of you really do care about what reviewers say.

And it's just so cute to see how you all will deny in a scores or hype thread :oops:

Carry on children.

[QUOTE="Zaibach"]

So what is your point exactly?, because everytime I ask you dont tell me or anyone, you keep telling us we dont get it?

You hate cinematic games because they take away control from the player, but would prefer cutscenes?....

mmmwksil

The true point of the thread is that gaming "journalism" is a joke, as proven by the testimony of the IGN reviewers.

The problem is that in order for DL's assertion that gaming journalism is a joke is that you have tobelieve a game must live and die solely by it's gameplay, like DL does.

He could have talked about a ton of other things to rip gaming journalism, but he chose to attack their review of UC3.

Regardless of his intentions, he's just not a very good writer. Trolling and not being able to express yourself are two different things. Time will tell which of the two happened here.

[QUOTE="Master_ShakeXXX"][QUOTE="UnrealLegend"]

Um... did you just happen to forget about all those quicktime events that Vanquish has?

UnrealLegend

I'm aware that it's nowhere near as cinematic as those other games, but it clearly has moments that restrict frredom and movement. Sure, they're fairly infrequent, but they're still there.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

The irony present in those two sentences is palpable.

DarkLink77

You could take all of the cutscenes out of FFXIII and it would still play like a corridor shooter RPG.

When you use the word "cinematic," I can't see how cutscenes don't play a role in this.

Videogames need to find a balance of cinematic flair as well as gameplay. In my opinion Deus Ex is a brilliant example of this, the cinematic flair is seen in the cyberpunk Blade Runner esque art direction and the soundtrack which boosted the atmosphere. Gameplay wasn't neglected with multiple paths to a goal as well as the ability to converse with people, listen in on conversations and read articles which only made the game world more realistic. The game whilst atmospheric and cinematic was still really enjoyable to play

In my opinion it isn't cinematic design that is problem, it is the fact that too many developers these days concentrate too much on cinematic design whilst neglecting gameplay.

Oh and people stop getting your knickers in a knot over Darklink using a bunch of people commenting on Uncharted 3 as an example and actually concentrate on the topic at hand.

[QUOTE="XVision84"]

[QUOTE="darktx2005"]

It's so funny how people keep saying we don't get the point. We do. DL and others hate cinematic games essentially because they limit gameplay and freedom. He uses the UC3 review because the reviewers loved it yet said the gameplay is average. This is proof that the industry is going down the wrong path and so on and so forth.

How is this NOT an example of taking your own idea of the perfect game and throwing a fit if something that doesn't fit that mold gets praise? Now if almost every major release fit this mold, then fine. You'd have a point. Yet, instead we see PLENTY of gaming experiences available for those who aren't interested in cinematic games.

DarkLink77

It's not variety that's the problem, just the fact that reviewers are calling the game "perfect" despite it lacking any depth in gameplay. So if the gameplay (the whole point of playing the game) is bad, you'd think that the reviewers would give it a low score and bash it. Instead of that, they dismiss the gameplay problem and say that the characters, writing, and cinematic moments make the game amazing. DL is saying that these are all elements of a movie, not a game therefore they shouldn't be put on a higher pedestal than gameplay.

I'd like mmmwksil's sigs as my prize, and I wouldn't mind taking mitu's post count either ;)

There isn't, in the multiplayer. Which is the sole reason Uncharted 2 and 3 are great games in the end.

For UC3's single player, your aiming is literally limited to a square box. Up, down, left and right. No 360 degree movement.

theuncharted34

that is totally not true. at all.

I was perplexed by this criticism at first and thought

"really? how could I not notice something like that? im pretty sure I have turned around in a 360 before while aiming"

I just turned it on, loaded up a level (rough seas), aimed, and turned around in a full 360 multiple times. so yeah. that's BS

[QUOTE="charizard1605"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Really, let's compare FFVII with FFXIII.

FFVII - In the first Mako reactor, Barret stops to take 30 seconds to explain to Cloud that "the planet is dying."

FFXIII - At the beginning of Ch. 5 Lightning takes 30 seconds to give Hope advice or whatever.

The difference? In the first one, barret just walks out of cloud and they exchange lines with text boxes, the player skips through them, and it's done. The second, it pulls up a full blown cutscene with actions, movement, voices, camera angles. Somehow, the 2nd is a travesty.

nitekids2004

FFVII is as much linear as your average Zelda game.

Which isn't saying alot.

FFVII is more linear than your average Zelda game. o_O;

[QUOTE="charizard1605"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Really, let's compare FFVII with FFXIII.

FFVII - In the first Mako reactor, Barret stops to take 30 seconds to explain to Cloud that "the planet is dying."

FFXIII - At the beginning of Ch. 5 Lightning takes 30 seconds to give Hope advice or whatever.

The difference? In the first one, barret just walks out of cloud and they exchange lines with text boxes, the player skips through them, and it's done. The second, it pulls up a full blown cutscene with actions, movement, voices, camera angles. Somehow, the 2nd is a travesty.

hakanakumono

I know, but plenty of people do.

And FFVII is most certainly linear. The entire Mako reactor area in the beginning of FFVII is just as linear as locations in FFXIII. It's just that FFVII is not as linear as FFXIII overall.

Plenty of games still focus on traditional, non cinematc gaming. Now more than ever. Just think about it.

15strong

Before this gen damn near every game focused on "traditional" gaming. Now, most try to go the cinematic route.

[QUOTE="Pug-Nasty"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] ^This. Most of them specifically said, "the gunplay needs work."DarkLink77

I can, and do, say that about every game I play, just exchance "gunplay" with whatever the main mechanic of the game is. The only people I've seen have issues with Uncharted are people who can't line up their shots, which is why I assume you need auto aim. A lot of people do, so I don't think it's particularly insulting.

You said, in your OP, that "games with bad gunplay are masterpieces?" That's twisting what they said, because you can't find any professional opinions that agree with your ridiculous assessment that leaving old game design behind is a bad thing. There's a reason it gets left behind, because it's bad.

Can you give examples of what is bad about the gunplay other than it being "bad" or "clunky." Can you back up your claims when your linked source does not?

How has skill based gameplay been left behind? You mean gameplay that revolves are the skills you had learned playing older games was left behind, and you don't want to develop new skills to adapt to new gameplay.

[QUOTE="charizard1605"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

FFXIII's design mentality is a result of its development hell and Square taking fan feedback into account. In interviews, Square revealed that the areas were originally larger and more expansive, but they made them more linear so players wouldn't "get lost." Wanna know why? People complained about "getting lost" in FFXII.

Really, the problems with FFXIII have little to do with it being too cinematic. It was just the design. Like you said, it played like a corridor shooter RPG.

hakanakumono

I just don't think its true. This may be because I mostly just play Japanese games. But the trend seems to be going in the opposite direction, from what I've seen.

[QUOTE="mmmwksil"]

[QUOTE="Zaibach"]

So what is your point exactly?, because everytime I ask you dont tell me or anyone, you keep telling us we dont get it?

You hate cinematic games because they take away control from the player, but would prefer cutscenes?....

NEStorianPriest

The true point of the thread is that gaming "journalism" is a joke, as proven by the testimony of the IGN reviewers.

The problem is that in order for DL's assertion that gaming journalism is a joke is that you have tobelieve a game must live and die solely by it's gameplay, like DL does.

He could have talked about a ton of other things to rip gaming journalism, but he chose to attack their review of UC3.

Regardless of his intentions, he's just not a very good writer. Trolling and not being able to express yourself are two different things. Time will tell which of the two happened here.

Really, let's compare FFVII with FFXIII.

FFVII - In the first Mako reactor, Barret stops to take 30 seconds to explain to Cloud that "the planet is dying."

FFXIII - At the beginning of Ch. 5 Lightning takes 30 seconds to give Hope advice or whatever.

The difference? In the first one, barret just walks out of cloud and they exchange lines with text boxes, the player skips through them, and it's done. The second, it pulls up a full blown cutscene with actions, movement, voices, camera angles. Somehow, the 2nd is a travesty.

hakanakumono

that perfectly sums it up lol

[QUOTE="charizard1605"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Really, let's compare FFVII with FFXIII.

FFVII - In the first Mako reactor, Barret stops to take 30 seconds to explain to Cloud that "the planet is dying."

FFXIII - At the beginning of Ch. 5 Lightning takes 30 seconds to give Hope advice or whatever.

The difference? In the first one, barret just walks out of cloud and they exchange lines with text boxes, the player skips through them, and it's done. The second, it pulls up a full blown cutscene with actions, movement, voices, camera angles. Somehow, the 2nd is a travesty.

nitekids2004

FFVII is as much linear as your average Zelda game.

Which isn't saying alot.

I just turned it on, loaded up a level (rough seas), aimed, and turned around in a full 360 multiple times. so yeah. that's BS

arbitor365

Ok so how was the aiming? He wasn't talking about turning 360 degrees, but it's inability to aim correctly.

[QUOTE="XVision84"]

[QUOTE="darktx2005"]

It's so funny how people keep saying we don't get the point. We do. DL and others hate cinematic games essentially because they limit gameplay and freedom. He uses the UC3 review because the reviewers loved it yet said the gameplay is average. This is proof that the industry is going down the wrong path and so on and so forth.

How is this NOT an example of taking your own idea of the perfect game and throwing a fit if something that doesn't fit that mold gets praise? Now if almost every major release fit this mold, then fine. You'd have a point. Yet, instead we see PLENTY of gaming experiences available for those who aren't interested in cinematic games.

DarkLink77

It's not variety that's the problem, just the fact that reviewers are calling the game "perfect" despite it lacking any depth in gameplay. So if the gameplay (the whole point of playing the game) is bad, you'd think that the reviewers would give it a low score and bash it. Instead of that, they dismiss the gameplay problem and say that the characters, writing, and cinematic moments make the game amazing. DL is saying that these are all elements of a movie, not a game therefore they shouldn't be put on a higher pedestal than gameplay.

But games that get the perfect score like U3 arn't lacking in gameplay. The reviewer dosen't think that and that is why it gets a 10. U3 is giving you gameplay that you can't expirience in any other game. Same with MGS4. These 10 games aren't lacking in depth, they are adding a diferent kind of depth. This is why me an many find the arguemnt flawed. The reviewer never thought the gameplay was bad in the rated "10" games.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

You could take all of the cutscenes out of FFXIII and it would still play like a corridor shooter RPG.

hakanakumono

When you use the word "cinematic," I can't see how cutscenes don't play a role in this.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

To deconstruct:

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with everything that is wrong with video games "journalism" and the industry in general in one fell swoop. (In your opinion)

So while every single editor admitted that the shooting ( you know, the meat and bones of the gameplay)was not all that great (one outright hated it, one said that "tolerate" was a good word), each and every one of them loved the game, and three called it a masterpiece.

A masterpiece. With bad shooting. (Only one editor said they hated it, the rest were fine with it. Show me the math where this equates to the shooting being bad, not just fine.)

But it gets better. When asked what their favorite part of the game was, the near-universal reaction was: "Oh, the characters and the performances." (As opposed to games with horrible voice acting, lifeless characters you don't care about.)

So what we have here, ladies and gentlemen, are professional reviewers praising a game that is completely unoriginal (in your opinion) and, lets be honest, doesn't have amazing writing (your opinion, yet again), as a masterpiece, even though they admit the gameplay (the shooting is only part of the gameplay, movement, interaction, and challenge also factor in) isn't that great.

Uh-huh.

And it's not just IGN doing this. This is an epidemic. A disease of the medium. We want movies with quick-time events now. (we do? I don't remember all of us getting together and saying that)

I mean, did we all just forget what good movies are? Did we suddenly lower our standards in film so much that we had to turn to games? Are all game developers just wanna-be directors that didn't have the talent to make it in the big leagues? (how dramatic! you're assuming everyone's own opinions and overstating the problem as you see it to try to further your own argument.)

Remember back in the day we when praised games for, y'know, being games, and not trying to be B-movies? (like when Half-Life ripped off Stephen King's short story, The Mist, to create an immersive environment in which to shoot things) Remember when we loved being given more gameplay options, and didn't like being railroaded through a game with as little involvement as possible because the developer treated the player as a necessary inconvenience? (plenty of older games didn't give us those options, so it is a selective example of game design being used to make a blanket statement) Remember when we recognized good game design?

So my question is: What the f*** happened? (Nothing. There are plenty of games that don't do what you're saying this game does, though clearly it is just your own opinion)

DarkLink77

BTW if this is a troll thread then kudos. Nothing like free time to waste time.

Way not to own up to the fact that no one understands what you're trying to say because you apparently didn't take English 101.

Your original post was nothing but your own opinion, buried in an unfocused argument, which was really nothing more than whining.

That's the point- that you didn't clearly make one.

[QUOTE="darktx2005"]

It's so funny how people keep saying we don't get the point. We do. DL and others hate cinematic games essentially because they limit gameplay and freedom. He uses the UC3 review because the reviewers loved it yet said the gameplay is average. This is proof that the industry is going down the wrong path and so on and so forth.

How is this NOT an example of taking your own idea of the perfect game and throwing a fit if something that doesn't fit that mold gets praise? Now if almost every major release fit this mold, then fine. You'd have a point. Yet, instead we see PLENTY of gaming experiences available for those who aren't interested in cinematic games.

XVision84

It's not variety that's the problem, just the fact that reviewers are calling the game "perfect" despite it lacking any depth in gameplay. So if the gameplay (the whole point of playing the game) is bad, you'd think that the reviewers would give it a low score and bash it. Instead of that, they dismiss the gameplay problem and say that the characters, writing, and cinematic moments make the game amazing. DL is saying that these are all elements of a movie, not a game therefore they shouldn't be put on a higher pedestal than gameplay.

. On the HD twins, and especially with western games, gaming is getting stuck in a rut.charizard1605

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="charizard1605"] Okay, so maybe FF13 was a wrong example to use (which I did because of my lack of information. I did not know that fans had caused that change. Really, they don't know what they want, do they? As clueless as Square itself). But in general, will you deny that games are becoming increasingly linear and are taking away freedom from players? Btw, one example of a game that strikes a perfect balance between being cinematic and giving the player freedom is Assassin's Creed. It treads the line perfectly.charizard1605

I just don't think its true. This may be because I mostly just play Japanese games. But the trend seems to be going in the opposite direction, from what I've seen.

I disagree, there are many interesting experiences to be had with games like Bioshock, Portal, LittleBigPlanet, GT5, Forza, Alan Wake, R&C, and countless games like LIMBO and WipEout.