Gaming's two biggest obstacles when telling a story

Too long; didn't read: Video games have two major obstacles when telling a story. It's not an organic/natural story telling medium and quite often game developers ignore that gameplay is part of the story. So my question to you is, how can games work around doing this stuff better?

That out of the way

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No surprisingly this is not completely a Champ shits on video game stories the thread. So if you were mildly excited for the day I type up "My First Sex Teacher has more artistic merit than video game stories" thread, today's not the day. I'd actually have to put effort into that thread, I mean come on.

But lets pretend for one second that your narrative of "Champ hates everything" isn't true, and I actually like video games. I even like a few video game stories. I know crazy talk though it maybe, but pretend with me, imagine a world where "Champ likes thing". That Champ, hypothetically speaking of course: wouldn't have a problem with the fact that games try to tell stories, or that they are story driven, or dare I say: use a cutscene. All champs hate cinematic walking, that's non-negotiable.

All that stuff is fine and dandy, no the bigger problem is what gaming always has to work around to convey a lot of its stories. Even generic, derivative, trope driven stories found in the likes of the Uncharted games, Mafia, anything Rockstar, take your pick.

1. Gaming isn't an organic story telling medium

Old dated Carmack quote of gaming stories are like porn stories, while flawed, have a reasonable amount of merit. The general gist is that game stories are just bridges between the players actual conflict ie, the gameplay. A lot of times it's just set up for what's about to happen or window dressing in between shit actually happening in the game.

Film and literature, while have their own limitations, can go the natural course. If the natural next scene/scenario in the story is some boring talking segment, that's what those mediums will go with if the writer isn't a dimwit. Gaming? There is only so much walking and talking you can force the player to sit through, before you need to actually give them a game.

And that's always going to be a problem, your gameplay must always be a part of the story. It can't be separated or abstracted. Which brings us to

2. The gameplay working with the story

Not one to ever use the ludonarrative dissonance line, but there is an artificiality to games that more or less ruins entire set ups for games. A lot of it just makes some of these action games, that try super fucking hard to present their story as this deeply compelling thing as intellectually dishonest. Red Dead is often cited as this great game largely due to how it immortalizes John Marston, but you're supposed to accept in a game where your kill count is going to be like 500 dudes or something, you've already had a scenario where the dudes couldn't shoot the broadest side of the broadest barn, but now we're going to act like there is impact and value to this one life?

Yes you built up the character to be likable, but presenting said character's payoff in a game where the gameplay does very little to value human life? Eh doesn't really work. It's in that deep contrast where games like Spec Ops The Line and The Last of Us actually work better. There is no pretense to those games in that regard, they are stories about a savage.

It's certainly an aspect that has gotten better (The Last of Us isn't nearly as absurdly disconnected as say Uncharted as from its story), but you still have things like failure states. We've accepted this as "video game" logic, because without said states, things stops being a game to a lot of people. But like understand that gameplay still is this mediums major tool of story telling, and we hand wave a central thing that makes games, games; a failure state.

Some games have played around with it, there is a great gaming brit video on it, but that's just that some games. And I'm not saying all games should, The Last of Us doesn't really gain anything if they messed with failure states, but more experimentation isn't a bad thing. It's why I don't have problems with what Gone Home, Firewatch, or That Dragon, Cancer try to do (and usually fail at, sans Dragon Cancer). Because they try to tell that story in an interactive manner, that probably only works as a walking sim. Because point and click puzzles would make no fucking sense in those stories, much less shoot shoot bang bang, feels?

And

Resolution: All in all gaming needs to experiment a bit more, and make more of an effort to get the gameplay involved in the story. Maybe don't make an action game all the fucking time, LA Noire probably should have had less shooting for instance. Don't drop cutscenes for the sake of it, and don't just rely on them because it's easy thing to do. Relying on another medium's strengths to mask your own medium's strengths.

Remember that your gameplay is actually part of story. Games don't have stakes because of some cutscenes, the stakes come in the gameplay. It's usually that conflict you are struggling with in gameplay that makes for some of the more memorable moments. It's how Dark Souls has stakes.

Maybe it's time to realize that you shouldn't be telling the stories that movies and books tell? Maybe you need to think more like music, in that medium they tell stories that very specifically work through melody & 3-5 minutes of lyrics. Games should probably work closer to that model.

And finally, if you actually made it this far to the end. Super Metroid is perfect. Champ is correct 100% of the time. And you all have bad taste when it comes to stories (well lets be real, everything) and would be lost in this world without me.

Sidenote: you know what I could go for? A Jethrovegas thread.

I always liked how Half-Life did it. They fed me story but left me in control of the game at the same time. I could play with my guns, items, look around, etc while the story was going on. When i would talk to someone, it felt natural cause i still had full control. I could walk away from the conversation.

Its something i wish Deus Ex would copy. I get annoyed when Deus Ex pauses my gameplay to deliver me cutscenes, voice acting, or long text sessions. I dont mind if its just a little, but some games pile it on.

I didnt mind Gone Home much, i liked how they did their game, but i felt it was a demo. Was kinda too short. I think the game should let us be more apart of the story, let us create parts of the stories kinda.

I agree that a good game story will be told largely through the gameplay. It's the player's story, afterall. Games with dialogue branches do a better job at more in-depth stories, since once again it's a form of gameplay mechanic that gives you choice.

When you have a fixed storyline you run into the danger of the gameplay representation of the character that the player is projecting contradicting or diminishing the storyline character. I won't go into depth, but Marcus and Dom in Gears, "No! Sweetie/Daddy is gone [Chainsawing bone and flesh in emotional anguish]"...>_>

You all should play Oxenfree.

Okay, you lost me when you said Uncharted is disconnected from the story. This sounds more bias than anything and strongly opinionated. I know threads are meant to be opinions but it's hard to take one to heart when it gets that strongly opinionated.

I appreciate that you didn't call cutscenes a total no-no. They are in fact just another tool.

Games that can get their head out of Hollywood's ass tend to do a little better in the narrative department. Doom is a great recent example.

@killered3:

Do you imagine Drake to be a happy-go-lucky average guy out on an adventure... or a stone cold mass murdering super human.

You would know all about that, right?...

Nicely done Champ... There is a major disconnect with what we value in great story telling and the video game mediums ability to execute it convincingly....

I think my addition to the conversation centers around what we want from our games as it applies to story telling... For example, I can look at uncharted 4 and say, "this game is going for a connection to characters and overall story arch and set pieces more so than scratching the itch of deeply connective gameplay... I mean, from a pure gameplay perspective the game is an absolute snooze fest without the context of story... Its linear, with predictable segments and lots of simple button presses. The, "do I stealth or do I shoot" is about as deep as it gets, though because they take you on a more convincing ride, (a testamate to their ability) they pull it of.... but does it make for a better game?

Chasing Hollywood in games is a slippery proposition, but it is a trend... We see many fail on narratives/characters because escaping reality through gameplay is where the medium shines... If you can't convince your audience that the gameplay works with your attempt at tell a story then one doesn't need to look far to realize why games struggle in this area.

The older and more miserly I get, the more I feel like the medium is probably better to have people attempting games that break through the story mold and folks who are committed to the Grand opportunity that is advancing gameplay.

... The risk however is that when gameplay is placed first (my go to's like rogue legacy, helldivers, Alienation, rocket league etc etc etc...) you are working on augmenting the player experience through challenging the gamer to be greater on their own merits... When you're trying to tell a story, you're asking me to bare with the tedium of telling the story as it applies to MY experience with the gameplay...to me, It innately makes games slower. For an industry that fears taking risks, the practice of shoving bad stories down our throat at the expense of allowing us more dynamically realized gameplay seems to me a risk that isn't paying off for everyone.

Then of course there are those games that get it so right... Your super Metroid example... Or how about a game like Shovel Knight? Brilliant gameplay and connective characters and story that augments the gameplay and never steps on its toes... I know you'll disagree champ, but Portal 2 does something similar for me, though story is subjective, quality gameplay that rides along with the story like pb+J.

First step that devs need to take is stop trying to make games turn out like b movies. Even b movies aren't very good, story-wise, it's the action that people love about them. Games already have that aspect.

First step for consumers is to stop hyping and praising that shit like it's a work of greatness. I'm not gonna name any names or games, but you know who you are.

Question, Champ: if you consider Super Metroid to be perfect, where does that put the likes of Metroid Prime? Is it an evolution of the same story-telling concept only now in a 3D space? Or did the inclusion of lore in the form of plain text data entries detract from the experience?

I consider both games to be great atmospheric pieces, but lean towards Prime because I actually found all that flavor text quite tasty to snack on once the game was done.

Personally I've never cared for video game narratives, and I stick to the genre most associated with them (the RPG). They are at best a reason for the existence of the world we play in. I think anyone who goes looking for quality narratives in games should probably be looking elsewhere.

The biggest obstacle with Games Telling Stories is that you are TELLING a Story.

No I'm no expert but Story Telling is a one way interaction in which one dude tells a story and the other persons sits perfectly, shuts up and listens. And thats a fantastic experience in most mediums....... its just completely useless to this one.

Now you might interpret that is me being against Stories in Video Games.... I'm actually not, I'm just against being Told a Story. No.... How you TELL the story isn't what makes our medium different from all the others..... after All you're doing is substituting one one way interaction for another.

Don't Hate.... its just oppinions yo !!! :)

@killered3: pretty sure he's saying that Nathan Drake is not an easy guy to root for when he's murdering literally hundreds of people along his harrowing journey.

@gamecubepad:

None of that was opinion, I actually enjoyed Mega Man and Mario. I was just proving a fact that the gameplay was never all there. Just like the Spider Man games from last gen would've sucked if Spider Man wasn't in them. Doesn't mean I didn't love the games regardless.

Check your haterade out the door, thankyouverymuch.

@killered3: Nope He/she is right. Galaxy and Megaman games excel, even broke new ground, at gameplay and mechanical depth, and game design. You saying it's only the character that makes the games great and critically acclaimed is absolute fanboy nonsense on your part.

@ConanTheStoner:

I level Drake with Indiana Jones and old Lara Croft. You can call him a murderer but it's not like you saw him busting through people's houses and shooting women and children. You only see Drake killing grunts and hired mercs. If you wanna kill him a murderer, you might as well call every action movie hero that while you're at it. Besides, the games never let you open fire into crowds of people during standby segments.

The main characters in GTA and Saints Row games, however; now those are homicidal murderers and maniacs.

@killered3: if anything I'd say, after growing up with the Mario franchise, is that the character is the ultimate ridiculous nonsensical protagonist flown in your face because it rides on the heels of 30 years of incredible gameplay.

No one gives a damn about Mario because he lusts for Princess peach...

@killered3:

It almost sounds like you're saying you wouldn't be able to play those games if wasn't for the Narrative.

I know one is Champ being the reviewer LOL

Like I said, it's not fanboying because I actually love these games. But the overall simplicity of the gameplay would've made everyone's stomach clinch without the famous icons. You can forgive it all when it's someone famous but if you replace them with what's-his-faces then no one would give a darn.

The gameplay itself wasn't terrible or anything, just ridiculously simple. Jump, run, shoot(Mega Man), or spin(Mario). I bet if Mighty No. 9 was a true Mega Man game, less reviewers would've bitched about it. The only thing really bad about it is that it looks like a cheap knock off with a bland replacement bot. They called his creator Dr. White, which is clearly a knock off for Light for God's sake!

Nathan Drake's kill count in his games is more in with Rambo than it is Indiana Jones with Raiders of the Lost Ark, and routinely the games will have cutscenes of incredibly violent shit happening to or around drake, in a game where he has regen health and you soak up bullets like a sponge. Thematically his games lack any justification for a lot of the shit that happens in his game, because they gloss over the part where Nathan Drake is the walking 2nd amendment.

In UC2 they get super lazy and cheesy and try to have Lazarivich going all "You know, you and I aren't so different" for a game that made Bad Boys 2 look tame. He absolutely a mass murderer, it's something that is entirely glossed over because video game logic.

It's perfecter!! I didn't mean Super Metroid was perfect game story telling, I'm just saying the game, itself, flawless. Because I love it. Metroid Prime is divine too though. But sure Metroid Prime's form of story telling is actually pretty good, it does Dark Souls thing significantly better than Dark Souls. Dark Souls has better lore, but it's way the **** more absurd in how you convey the story in that game versus how it's handled in Metroid Prime. Metroid Prime is also less esoteric and vague about shit.

@ConanTheStoner said:

Brah!

Another quality topic worthy of discussion by the almighty Champ.

I would absolutely say it's the how. How the stories are told in film, is the reasoning behind how certain stories are told in film. Not that you couldn't do something similar to The Wire in film (lord knows there are excellent crime dramas in film), but you couldn't go as detailed and slow burn as The Wire does thanks to it being a TV show. And that's just as simple as how long the story is going to be now, books have the advantage of detail.

Games, it's the stories they can tell exclusively that works on another level. Being trapped in puzzle box mansion that makes you all nervous? A movie can depict, but a game can make you feel that directly. It's why sports games always go about it the wrong way when EA says dumb shit like "it's like your watching the game on TV'...um it's a video game, you should be trying to replicate what it would feel like to be on the field in these big situations. Not what the broadcast would look like.

Yep, Gears of War shouldn't take itself so deathly serious, or should have altered how they handled some of their gameplay loop to match the tone a bit better.

LMFAO

To elaborate on your points, I gave more of a shit about the stories Ben and I had in 2 v 2 Rocket League because of absurd comebacks, blown leads, or ridiculous shots than I ever did Geralt of Rivia's adventures in The Witcher 3, and the narrative stuff in that game is top notch. One being a product of mechanics and a game, inherently speaks to the strengths of this medium more. The other, sort of speaks to the unique strengths of CDPR more than anything. Which isn't a bad thing by any means, lord knows plenty of people love that game.

No... **** no. wtf lol.

Solid Snake is an iconic character, didn't stop me from thinking MGS4 was a load of shit. Sonic is a near and dear iconic character from my childhood, that doesn't make me give his games a pass in the slightest.

On the flip side, Super Meat Boy is a nobody of a character, but I still think that game is one of the finest platformers ever created. Shovel Knight is a nobody, but the game is still an excellent action platformer and easily one of my favorite games of the gen.

Maybe you need a famous face to enjoy a video game, but trust me when I say that you are very much in the minority here. I'm all about the gameplay. If you swapped Mario out for a walking dildo in SMG2 I would have still thought it was the pinnacle of 3d platforming and one of the greatest games of last gen. NGB is my favorite 3d beat-em-up, but you could replace Ryu Hayabussa with some generic power ranger and no fucks would be given.

@jg4xchamp:

You make it sound like he was killing innocent people. Drake was killing hired goons and mercs trying to kill him. You wanted them to hug it out or something? ? By your logic, EVERY shooting game would have you playing as murderers. It's simple game mechanics. You fight enemies to get to end of the level.

Do you call Mario a killer for stomping all those defenseless animals? Or Samus for killing all those creatures just hanging around minding their own business? Every adventure game is guilty for this mechanic, dude. That's kinda how games work.

@killered3:

Nope.

I would have Enjoyed Super Mario Brothers even if you stripped it of all its Story and Context. There is an enjoyable experience to be had from the Gameplay challenges those games place infront of. Its not like Mario is jumping over the exact same obstacles and enemies for the entire game..... they increase in Challange and Complexity and not only is possible for people to enjoy that..... I would go as far as saying a graeter emphasis on Narrative would have ruined the game for the people that play games for... you know.... GAMEPLAY.

I was 5 years old when I first played Mario, I didn't even know what a Plumber was or what the hell Mario's Motivations were half of the time..... I just liked Jumping over Sh!t. Perfectly naturally for a 5 year old I would say.

Yeah exactly, because they are fucking mass murderers. You keep forgetting that those mercs and goons are not factual creations that exist, those were a product of someone creating those scenarios. That's the game created, they could have gone all in on more of an adventure game where over the course of the game your body count isn't in the hundreds. Instead it was easier to make a third person blockbuster action game, and they did.

It's not a moral thing at this point, it's a violent action game, I accept it for that. It's more so its sheer absurdity, said mass killing sort of robs Uncharted of some intellectual high ground. It no longer is in a position to be reflective, or thought provoking or any of that shit, because it's pulp narrative. And the thing is better pulp exists in this medium, Max Payne never pretends Max Payne is average dude, Max Payne never goes further with its theme, it's good ol fashioned revenge story pulp. And it owns it.

Uncharted tries at times to be more interesting than it is, and it's absurd every time it does it. Just because Drake shot scumbags doesn't really change anything, in GTA you spend a lot of times shooting scumbags, shooting normal people is actually frowned upon in that game. One is an actual product of the story, the other is just a level of freedom they provided the player but one the story handwaves left, right, and center. Yet you can recognize you play as mass murderers in GTA.

More to the point: You being petty got side tracked over one example, instead of focusing on the larger point. Replace the example with whatever game you feel fits better, and focus on that part of the discussion sport. Defending the glory that is Naughty God, wasn't exactly the point.

Half Life is the absolute worst way to tell a story. you're a "character" with no voice, no emotions, no motivations of their own. you're a walking husk who's only purpose is to be talked at and ordered from place to place. sure, you could walk circles around the person talking at you but that hardly makes it better storytelling or adds anything. I can't even tell you what the story in any of the Half Life games was about. Completely forgettable

@ConanTheStoner:

Easy to say that now, sure but I'm still pretty damn sure you would have sung a different tune if those games YOU like changed dramatically.

Of course, you can still hate a game with a famous icon if you never grew up enjoying it. That's totally natural! So's not liking the new direction one takes. From Nostalgia, we KNOW Mario and his entire past is from jumping and going through pipes. So obviously we're gonna want him to stay that way. That's why Nintendo can get away with pooping out games so easily. But if he was born today, he would be stuck as an Indie platformer.

Also for the record, I never said that new old school games can't be good either. Even though those games are heavily relying on your grasp of the past.

@jg4xchamp:

You said it yourself, Gaming isn't inherently a Story Telling medium.... what do you think is going to happen if you try to introduce StoryTelling into Gaming ? Or Construction ? Or Medical Healthcare ? Or Rocket Science ?

The difference between Movies and Books is not like the Difference between Movies and Games.... after all even Movies and Literature share similarities and in that case you can make the argument that how those to mediums tell stories is important to the identity of the medium.... after all, those are Story Telling Mediums. With that said.... Why try to force Story Telling into something that isn't design for Story Telling ? After all you don't see Chefs trying to Shoe Horn in Story Telling into their Choclate Pudding or Prostitutes Trying to weave a Plot Twist in the middle of Sexual Intercourse.....

All those other things have an inherit thing that makes them great to experience and we appreciate them for what they are and don't try to turn them into something they are not...... why should games be any different ?

Let games be games man..... does their Storing Telling Suck ? Big Whoop. The Story Telling in Eating Breakfast is equally Garbage, worse even.... but you don't see people going on Hunger Strikes because of its lack of Story Telling.

Yeah but the thing is games do tell a story, and things like Shadow of the Colossus exists. It's mechanically unique and satisfying to play, and it's connected beautifully with its narrative. It's super fucking simple, and no where near as like deep as it's fanbase thinks it is (I mean they are gamers, they never know better). My stance is there is nothing wrong with even low brow stuff holding itself up to a standard, but the general stuff still tells something through its mechanics.

This War of Mine, Papers Please, even XCom. Commander McDuckyswag had to make a lot of difficult decisions when he decided that trying to save Raven Symone is a lost cause, it's probably in the planet's best interest if Usain Bolt goes straight for the goal. Powerful stuff. #NaughtyDogCantCompete

@killered3:

1. It seems like we're not even close to being on the same page here. A lot of what you're saying has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

2. We're both shitting up this thread with stuff that is way off topic. Not the Uncharted story bit, but the gaming icon bit. Probably best to just leave it alone.

I always appreciate your writing 'Champ.

I just don't care enough. Video game stories can be as bad as people claim I enjoy nonetheless. I am not looking to grow spiritually through this hobby.

@jg4xchamp:

Easy there. I was just saying that if you wanna put it in a moral standpoint, every videogame that's adventure, rpg, action, fps and basically involve any sort of conflict involves violence and mayhem to some extent. If you want to look at it like that, then you shouldn't single any game out. What good would lowering the body count make? Then the games would get boring. You virtually kill things because it's fun.

You love Super Metroid, didn't you? Are you telling me you never had fun killing all those aliens and super bad ass bosses? You're the one making excuses for other games while they are all in fact about nonsensical violence.

@killered3: way to completely miss the point dude

It absolutely is. Nathan Drake is a happy go lucky everyman treasure hunter.

Who jumps like Superman and has personally murdered probably around 2000 people.

Yeah, those two things don't have any disconnects between them at all.

Game developers have to stop forcing their movie aspiration down gamers throats with their handicapping gameplay. Gaming is not the medium for conveying stories in the traditional manner. When developers do that they are factually removing the gaming elements that makes up a game. All of the top rated and perfect scoring games have been strong storytelling games in which the gameplay is secondary. Most people who praise these games talk about the story and rarely mentions the gameplay. That should be a telling sign that it failed as a game.

Uncharted 4, Quantum Break and The Order 1866 are all based on the same design. I have not played The Order 1866 but as far as Quantum Break and Uncharted 4, they are both plagued with heavy hand story telling and light gameplay. Why one game received a perfect score over the other is beyond me because the gameplay for both of these games were OK but the intense levels of story telling and interactivity are about the same.

Some games have done a good job in pushing storytelling without negatively affecting the gameplay. But these games are typically overlooked because in gaming a good story is an epic story regardless of how nonsensical it maybe. As you have mentioned, there is a serious disconnect between storytelling and gameplay. This disconnect is a plague in so many games and as the story becomes more a focus it becomes more jarring. You have characters that are portrayed as humans undergoing super human odds and receiving fatal damage regularly. But these are the same characters who would die from a 10 feet fall because the its not in line with the story and conveniently ignores the fact that the player has fallen from significantly higher and survived much deadlier situations but was given story ARMOR. There are numerous examples of this ongoing disconnect between the gameplay and the story.

Game developers need to explore methods of connecting to the player instead of disabling the controller and force feeding the gamer their stories.

Well that's part of the problem, they only know how to tell the violent stuff. And not like The Godfather or Apocalypse Now or No Country For Old Men. But like Commando, Avengers, John Wick (badass movie), which aren't exactly bad movies, they just aren't exactly excpetional stories, in fact the plots are pretty mediocre. They are just well done enough to make something cathartic and fun more enjoyable. Simple plot, easy protagonist to like, easy antagonist we want to see dead.

They rarely try to tell something more personal or more compelling. And when that stuff is explored: That Dragon, Cancer, it's usually talked about "oh well that's not a game", and yeah that game has its short comings. But it's a far more mature story than games like Mafia, Thief, Uncharted, Grand Theft Auto, Zelda, or David Cage joints pretend to be. Because it doesn't tackle ancient internet mayans trying to take over the world. It tackles the idea of two parents losing their child to cancer, and then having to deal with that. You can't tell that plot in a shooter, because you'd set up the most absurd tonal whiplash.

Super Metroid is great, because I like the game. The story? Samus arrives on planet hunting space pirates, because ridley steals the baby. Baby grows up to save Samus from Mother Brain, Samus leaves planet. It's actually plot is simplistic and in a vacuum kind of shit, it's also irrelevant to my points because it never tries to paint itself more than that. The game is just better at other things.

As for lowering the body count? Puzzle games exist, platformers exist, point and click adventure games exist. Those are pretty fun to a lot of people, shooters are shooters. There is a reason there is a wider diversity of stories told in a genre as niche as point and click adventure games, versus the type of stories and settings we in shooters sport.

To an extent, You don't care so long as you are entertained, and given how many games I play, I'd say we're on the same page on that one. I'm just less willing to say it's okay, and not be like "well that part was shit" lol But given how you don't respond to jrpgs, I'd say that has much to do with how fucking absurd and silly those stories are. Both in terms of how they look and how the stories are told.

And I'd argue part of the lack of evolution in jrpgs, is because no pointed how stupid they were for the longest time, all of a sudden a bunch of western rpgs come out and you go "you know this aesthetic actually makes way the **** more sense, these characters are more relateable and less silly, **** jrpgs", and that's a hurdle most of those jrpg devs haven't really come to grips with as far as I'm concerned.

There's a huge difference between killing people and killing monster, let's not even front.

Also, just because other games have the same problems as Uncharted does not mean Uncharted is somehow exempt from those problems. Most of them are structural failings due to the nature of the medium, which is what this thread is about.

@DarkLink77:

Exactly, every game involving conflict enevitably has you killing or hitting something. It's downright unavoidable. NO EXCEPTIONS.

@ConanTheStoner: exaggeration is apart of makes a game a game. Dont attack uncharted for being unrealistic when ever game ever made can be pointed out as unrealistic.

The game still feels realistic to a degree where drake doesnt looked that cold harded killing all those ppl. Or extra brollic when hes climbing around the place.

Batman is a hero that beats up 30 ppl a day and never missed a grapple hook in his life. Do we say he has superpowers ?

Puzzle games. Point and click adventures.There are nonviolent platformers (Bit Trip Runner, Captain Toad). Games like Journey, Papers, Please, etc.

The idea that you can't have gameplay without violence is both wrong and stupid, and thinking like that is part of the problem.

@Livecommander:

Before I respond, is this even a serious post?

@jg4xchamp:

Thats the Exception....

And the gameplay in those games sort of suffered because of the story telling..... and I don't think thats not fare to our medium.

Imagine if a Chef serverd you a Sh!tty Steak but offered to Wow you with a Heart Warming Story ? Thats what Team Ico did. :)

Come on dude, you can't honestly tell me that its fare for any medium to compromise what makes it unique just to give us something we already have multiple dedicated mediums for.

Earlier you said "Games, it's the stories they can tell exclusively that works on another level. Being trapped in puzzle box mansion that makes you all nervous? A movie can depict, but a game can make you feel that directly."

If you want that experience then a Game can give it to you.... But doing that througn TELLING a Story would be ignoring the strength of the medium.

A game is suppose to present a Possibilty Space where that feeling can be achieved. Mark Brown actually did one episode to telling a Story using Systems, however when you take a closer look the System don't actually "Tell" the story..... because there is no story. There's just a bunch indivual mechanisms that are allowed to interact with one and another and with you..... the events that get generated as you interact with these systems is what gives you a Story.

Its kinda like Going to the Beach. Theres no Story at the beach, it doesn't have a script or plot thats predetermined and forced upon you. However there are various individual things that can happen at the Beach that you can directly experience.... these events that you experience at the beach can then by retold to someone else by you.... and thats how you get your Story. Its not told to you and it isn't Story Telling. Thats what games should try to focus on. And they can do that with out ever comprising the thing that makes them so Unique.

But if you want to be "Told" a story then You make sad. :( don't you want me to be happy ?

"Not one to ever use the ludonarrative dissonance line, but there is an artificiality to games that more or less ruins entire set ups for games. A lot of it just makes some of these action games, that try super fucking hard to present their story as this deeply compelling thing as intellectually dishonest."

Yeah, as in not just Uncharted, it was an example people. And in the case of Batman? It's a dude in a bat suit, it's fundamentally pulp, it's never anything more than that. Some solid character studies at times (Arkham Asylum and The Killing Joke), and highly engaging pulp, but it's pulp.

@jg4xchamp: You make the point so well in your reply to killered. The overwhelming majority tell violent stories. And you are dead on brother, not like Godfather, Old Country or Apocalypse Now. It is stuff like Commando and John Wick ( I also enjoyed that until the end. So this Russian boss is SOOO scared of Wick, but he goes toe to toe with him? WTF).

What amazes me is I believe someone like David Cage thinks he is telling stories like the former listed above. I have been attempting to get through B2S Since April on PS4 and its excruciating. His gameplay is crap to the point he makes me not want to give the story a chance. But I own it and want to get through it at least once. But that's why I wasn't squeeling and all SONY WINS!!!! when they show so many games that look like they are attempting to pick up TLOU's type of hook and deep story, or so they think.

The part where they are doing it with God of War, just makes me lol so hard.

@jg4xchamp:

And you don't think using terms like fun and enjoyable don't add to the opinionated thing? One can argue that Uncharted is just meant to be a mindless roller-coaster like a Live Free or Die Hard movie or Max Payne. Which deep down, that's what Uncharted's goal really is. Shoot, kill, climb, have fun. If you can't enjoy that then it's your business but more than enough people can speak for what it has to offer. The story is the flag waiting for you at the end of the level. It HAS to try to keep your attention.

I know Metroid too, hell I grew up playing Super Metroid and I've been a fan ever since. To me, Metroid is just as nonsensical as any other adventure game out there. It all just comes down to whether or not you enjoy it. But you not calling something fun or lazy is just as meaningless and opinionated as anyone else saying so about your favorite games.

If anything, I've found more jrpg's that successfully put moral into the story than anything Western. Western are usually just sci-fi and Middle Earth themed that have you killing hordes of baddies just for level grinding. If you can call that evolution, go right ahead, yo.