GS: Donkey Kong Country Returns - Review

When the default control and the point of the system is motion controls, you work to become competent in using them. That IS the default that the game must be playable with. As a result I expect the reviewers to use it and learn how to use it. I don't get to dismiss a game just because the controls are unusual to me, that's foolish.

ActicEdge

That wont happen. Not this gen, and certainly not with a Nintendo system.

From day one, motion controls, associated with the Wii's modest tech and unexpected and unwelcome popularity, threw reviewers and gaming journalism in general in defensive mode.

I dont think i'm being a tin-foiled conspirator when i say that most of the typical young-adult male that works on gaming news-outlets, happily promotes the mocking and condescending enviroment surrounding the system and every trendy/popular message it sparked. A direction that directly negates the rough, hip, cutting-edge and dark/mature image they want to be associated with.

Motion controls will be embraced by the media eventually, but not because of Mario or Donkey Kong, it will be with Heavy Rains, Killzones and other attempts at adult-orientated games. And as long as this identity crisis exists among those who professionaly voice this form of entertainment, anything that prevents them from having their toys "being taken seriously" will be met with animosity and indifference.

:lol: oh god...

can you name any other company today that's beenconsistently putting out quality platformers like Nintendo has been doing? No

Shinobishyguy

I've already mentioned them.

Braid from Number None Inc.

LittleBig Planet from Media Molecule.

Super Meat boy from Team meat.

Limbo from Playdead.

You could easily argue that Nintendo releases more quality 2D platformers but they aren't the best in the genre anymore.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

When the default control and the point of the system is motion controls, you work to become competent in using them. That IS the default that the game must be playable with. As a result I expect the reviewers to use it and learn how to use it. I don't get to dismiss a game just because the controls are unusual to me, that's foolish.

Thunderdrone

That wont happen. Not this gen, and certainly not with a Nintendo system.

From day one, motion controls, associated with the Wii's modest tech and unexpected and unwelcome popularity, threw reviewers and gaming journalism in general in defensive mode.

I dont think i'm being a tin-foiled conspirator when i say that most of the typical young-adult male that works on gaming news-outlets, happily promotes the mocking and condescending enviroment surrounding the system and every trendy/popular message it sparked. A direction that directly negates the rough, hip, cutting-edge and dark/mature image they want to be associated with.

Motion controls will be embraced by the media eventually, but not because of Mario or Donkey Kong, it will be with Heavy Rains, Killzones and other attempts at adult-orientated games. And as long as this identity crisis exists among those who professionaly voice this form of entertainment, anything that prevents them from having their toys "being taken seriously" will be met with animosity and indifference.

Oh I know that's never going to happen but in the same vein I really don't care. Most of the reviewers or pubs or devsin the industry don't actually get to define what is relevant and what isn't. Most of them will also fail pretty badly in a debate about this topic and that's all that matters to me. In this billion dollar industry, the most relevant thing is that you can put people in check when they make bull statements. As a random forum poster, that's the best we can do and frankly that is fine by me.

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]

:lol: oh god...

can you name any other company today that's beenconsistently putting out quality platformers like Nintendo has been doing? No

JLF1

I've already mentioned them.

Braid from Number None Inc.

LittleBig Planet from Media Molecule.

Super Meat boy from Team meat.

Limbo from Playdead.

You could easily argue that Nintendo releases more quality 2D platformers but they aren't the best in the genre anymore.

Naw, those are great games but apart from meat boy they certainly are not better platformers then pretty much anything Nintendo puts out. They are all mediocire platformers through and through. Luckily games are sums of their parts but that doesn't disregard genre expectations in which those games fail to meet par.

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]

:lol: oh god...

can you name any other company today that's beenconsistently putting out quality platformers like Nintendo has been doing? No

JLF1

I've already mentioned them.

Braid from Number None Inc.

LittleBig Planet from Media Molecule.

Super Meat boy from Team meat.

Limbo from Playdead.

You could easily argue that Nintendo releases more quality 2D platformers but they aren't the best in the genre anymore.

In terms of quality and polish, thats a different story

Would you praise an authors second book if it was the same as has last one but **better**? JLF1

Fixed that for you

And yes? How could i not?

Should i praise David Fincher for making a decent comedy that does something "new" instead of making a fantastic thriller that perfects everything he started with Se7en? Should we applaud Stephen King for making a run-of-the-mill kids book that goes there, instead of an almost perfect book within the genre we all associate him with?

I honestly cant relate to this kind of thinking.

And seriously, NSMBW a standars setter? Please, that game did nothing new at all. It was a worse copy of something LBP did the year before. JLF1

Say what? Did you want to say LBP or is that a mistake? LBP is nothing like Mario. At all

For someone who claims Nintendo's games to constantly be underrated you sure are aggresively attacking any quality game from any other developer. Braid did something new, LBP did something new, Super Mear boy did something new. DKCR did not.

The reality is, Nintendo is not the groundbreaker, the innovator or the leader in quality with 2D platformers anymore.

JLF1

I'm not attacking anything and the only reason i speak of "Nintendo platformers" is because...well... they are pretty much alone this gen.Braid is a fantastic puzzle game, LBP is a great toybox/level-creating game, they are both only decent platformers at best. If it makes you understand or feel better, NSMBW is a terrible adventure game.

And yeah, i obviously disagree with that last thing you said.

Naw, those are great games but apart from meat boy they certainly are not better platformers then pretty much anything Nintendo puts out. They are all mediocire platformers through and through. Luckily games are sums of their parts but that doesn't disregard genre expectations in which those games fail to meet par.

ActicEdge

How are they mediocre platformers?

Sure they don't have the tight controls like the old-school Mario games has but neither has DKCR or KEY.I've been told numerus times that the reason Nintendo choose motion-controls in front of the best control option for SMG was because they wanted to challenge gamers in other ways than simply tight platforming gameplay. Hell, I've been told the same thing in this thread regarding DKCR. If that logic can't be applied on the games I mentioned than neither should it work on Nintendo's games this generation.

Oh, and for your information. It's Thunderdrone that calls 8.5 a sub-par score. I call it a very high quality score. I am not a person that cares about a score for a game. Well, outside my own scale of course.

[QUOTE="JLF1"]

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]

:lol: oh god...

can you name any other company today that's beenconsistently putting out quality platformers like Nintendo has been doing? No

Shinobishyguy

I've already mentioned them.

Braid from Number None Inc.

LittleBig Planet from Media Molecule.

Super Meat boy from Team meat.

Limbo from Playdead.

You could easily argue that Nintendo releases more quality 2D platformers but they aren't the best in the genre anymore.

In terms of quality and polish, thats a different story

All of these games have receive 90+ plus rating including for their quality in polish, how is Meat boy not polish, did you even play the game?

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]

[QUOTE="JLF1"]

I've already mentioned them.

Braid from Number None Inc.

LittleBig Planet from Media Molecule.

Super Meat boy from Team meat.

Limbo from Playdead.

You could easily argue that Nintendo releases more quality 2D platformers but they aren't the best in the genre anymore.

Sandvichman

In terms of quality and polish, thats a different story

All of these games have receive 90+ plus rating including for their quality in polish, how is Meat boy not polish, did you even play the game?

in terms of "innovation" maybe.

In terms of quality and polish, thats a different story

Shinobishyguy

[QUOTE="Sandvichman"]

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]in terms of "innovation" maybe.

In terms of quality and polish, thats a different story

Shinobishyguy

All of these games have receive 90+ plus rating including for their quality in polish, how is Meat boy not polish, did you even play the game?

I never did say so, lbp2 looks to change that however. But meat boy at its core has much more sharp controls then mario. You would know this if you played the game.Sandvichman

I'm eagerly waiting for a suprise announcement of that retail Wii or 3DS version that's been rumoured.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

Naw, those are great games but apart from meat boy they certainly are not better platformers then pretty much anything Nintendo puts out. They are all mediocire platformers through and through. Luckily games are sums of their parts but that doesn't disregard genre expectations in which those games fail to meet par.

JLF1

How are they mediocre platformers?

Sure they don't have the tight controls like the old-school Mario games has but neither has DKCR or KEY.I've been told numerus times that the reason Nintendo choose motion-controls in front of the best control option for SMG was because they wanted to challenge gamers in other ways than simply tight platforming gameplay. Hell, I've been told the same thing in this thread regarding DKCR. If that logic can't be applied on the games I mentioned than neither should it work on Nintendo's games this generation.

Oh, and for your information. It's Thunderdrone that calls 8.5 a sub-par score. I call it a very high quality score. I am not a person that cares about a score for a game. Well, outside my own scale of course.

I wasn't attacking you, you're being a bit too overly defensive. I respect your opinion, I just view this issue from a different perspective is all.

I'm not comparing being a great platformer to being Mario. I think the old Sonic games for example are excellent and totally in the same realm and they play very different. I'm saying the actual act of platforming and the design constructed in challenging the player (challenge is used loosley, I don't mean it has to be challenging if that makes sense) to rely on their reflexes, skills and problem solving skills in the context of the game are not up to par. Like Thunder said, LBP is an awesome creation tool but it really is not much of a platformer. Limbo is an awesome puzzle game mixed with platforming elements but its not really a solid platformer in of itself. That's the point I'm making, fantastic games, crappy platformers.

The SMG comment was mine and I maintain that idea. Haven't played DKCR so no comment though the motion controls seem to be slightly bothersome to those I've talked to. Challenging the conventions of being a solid platformer isn't really the best idea, through and through the best platformers of old and the definitions of such stomp all over the games you mentioned besides meat boy. I'm not arguing the validity of how good the games are, I'm saying compared to the standard of old and even the standard of new, they fall way short of where they need to be to be considered "better" than something like SMG. Make sense?

Also, I never mentioned anything about score, I didn't actually know there was a discussion on that going on :P
As I said before, its just a matter of review philosphy, ours differ, neither is wrong (even if it seems like I am saying yours or GS is I'm not), just making my position known :)

It's Thunderdrone that calls 8.5 a sub-par score. I call it a very high quality score. I am not a person that cares about a score for a game. Well, outside my own scale of course.

JLF1

And i'm arguing because your "most Wii games lack the quality to reach the 9.0+ score" asked for an argument. Thats what these forums are for.

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]

[QUOTE="Sandvichman"]

All of these games have receive 90+ plus rating including for their quality in polish, how is Meat boy not polish, did you even play the game?

Sandvichman

I'm actually dying for the chance to really sink my teeth into meat boy. 1 thing to keep in mind with meat boy is it was designed specificallly to be excessively difficult and control with the utmost precision. Mario is definitely sharp but it isn't suspose to be "difficult" either. But yeah, meat boy, been looking forward to it for a long while.

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]

:lol: oh god...

can you name any other company today that's beenconsistently putting out quality platformers like Nintendo has been doing? No

JLF1

I've already mentioned them.

Braid from Number None Inc.

LittleBig Planet from Media Molecule.

Super Meat boy from Team meat.

Limbo from Playdead.

You could easily argue that Nintendo releases more quality 2D platformers but they aren't the best in the genre anymore.

I thought Super meat boy was pretty similar to meat boy from 2008. Does the recently xbla version bring so much new to the table? i've only experienced the demo. It's quality from what i can tell, but it seems to be more similar to DKCR. Expanding on what it's predecessor set as groundwork. Deserves its praise regardless.

As for limbo, i'm not sure how that's an inovator but i'd love to hear your opinion on it!

LBP is hardly a quality platformer. It is, however, an incredible tool for creating and sharing on a console. And it would be nice to see that kind of thing attached to a quality platformer like DKCR.

Braid is unique and deserves credit. But i always pictured it as a puzzle game, not platformer.

EDIT: Actic, i just read you haven't played DKCR yet. When you do be sure to share your opinions of your experience in this thread! :)

I wasn't attacking you, you're being a bit too overly defensive. I respect your opinion, I just view this issue from a different perspective is all.

I'm not comparing being a great platformer to being Mario. I think the old Sonic games for example are excellent and totally in the same realm and they play very different. I'm saying the actual act of platforming and the design constructed in challenging the player (challenge is used loosley, I don't mean it has to be challenging if that makes sense) to rely on their reflexes, skills and problem solving skills in the context of the game are not up to par. Like Thunder said, LBP is an awesome creation tool but it really is not much of a platformer. Limbo is an awesome puzzle game mixed with platforming elements but its not really a solid platformer in of itself. That's the point I'm making, fantastic games, crappy platformers.

The SMG comment was mine and I maintain that idea. Haven't played DKCR so no comment though the motion controls seem to be slightly bothersome to those I've talked to. Challenging the conventions of being a solid platformer isn't really the best idea, through and through the best platformers of old and the definitions of such stomp all over the games you mentioned besides meat boy. I'm not arguing the validity of how good the games are, I'm saying compared to the standard of old and even the standard of new, they fall way short of where they need to be to be considered "better" than something like SMG. Make sense?

Also, I never mentioned anything about score, I didn't actually know there was a discussion on that going on :P
As I said before, its just a matter of review philosphy, ours differ, neither is wrong (even if it seems like I am saying yours or GS is I'm not), just making my position known :)

ActicEdge

I never said that you attacked me or anything. I was just making sure that people knew were I was coming from with the scores. :P

I have been "attacked" before when stating that a game deserved a certain score thinking that score was really good. It's just that there are a lof of people who thinks anything below a 9.0 os bad.

I can agree on that Nintendo has constantly done the platforming in platformers better than anyone else. I personally think that games like Super Meat boy, Little Big Planet and Braid are more important than DKCR or NSMBW though simply because we already have games like those in the past. I'm not saying that are unnecessary, the genre is almost dead (well, was a few years ago anyway) so any quality game is needed. SMG/2 is in another league though.

I can fully understand why Retro didn't do anything shocking with the franchise. They clearly didn't want to scare away people or tamper with the formula. I have no problem with that all. The only thing that scares me a little are the motion-controls. Retro has done the best they can and have no problem with the lack of anyhing new of shiny. The game doesn't need it.

When did i say that? I said "relegated to sub-8.5 scores". Meaning that they dont seem to be able to get any higher than that. Never said it was a sub-par score.

And i'm arguing because your "most Wii games lack the quality to reach the 9.0+ score" asked for an argument. Thats what these forums are for.

Thunderdrone

And IMO they rarely do have that extra innovation or game-mechanic to deserve it.

It's just my opinion on the matter.

Here are a couple of Wii games that I find fit the argument. I'm only going to take up the thing that makes them 8.5 instead of 9.0 so don't think it's my overall opinion on the games.

Punch-out!! is a great game but they could have added a better multiplayer, more game-modes or something else.

NSMBW is 4-player fun but was bested the year earlier with LBP. It could have had online, it could have had more playable characters, it could have had better graphics. Hell, Nintendo even stated that they didn't have Peach as a playable character simply because it would take time to do it.

Kirby Epic Yarn is short, very easy and lack replay value.

No More Heroes 2 is the same game as the first one but with stuff taken out of it. Not improved.

Now, don't get me wrong. all games don't need something new or everything on a check-list most HD games seems to have. These games are all very high quality. It's just that these games are almost on their own check-list. We got the quality high enough so we will get the high scores and the high sales, we don't need to push further. It's the developers that think for a second and decides that they want to push further that potentialy gets the 9.0 scores.

There is working controls and there is the best options for controls.

Having major platforming controls mapped to motion-controls does make them less precise as motion-controls on the Wii are less precise.

JLF1

Edit: McShea also mentions 'waving' the Wiimote in the review.. which gives me even more reason to not listen to critics when it comes to Wii games. He's already doing it wrong if he's 'waving' the Wiimote in DKCR.

Wow.. just wow.. this thread would have been completely different had the game scored 0.5 higher. I expected impressions from gamers who actually played the game yet you are all just arguing about miniscule subjects to a fault. For shame SW :(nintendo-4life

this is frikkin bullcrap lol. It really is. THE ONLY problem they have with a game they keep praising is that the controls are occasially a tad clumsy, but if you fall into a hole it will be your fault.....and other reviewers and people I have heard playing the game have said it controls fine. I dont see how this doesnt get a 9 or higher, but whatever. I could give a crap (personally) about GS's review. I just hate that they gave it an 8.5 due to media lol.

NaveedLife

Well, at least GS didn't :cry: about the difficulty like nearly every other gaming website.

For what Retro has done with the IP, this is nothing less than a 9.5 game. It is hands-down the best 2D platforming available. How this gets a 8.5 is beyond me. It is understandable when a review is taken as the reviewer's enjoyment of a game, but GS has always tried to sell their reviews as some kind of "objective analysis."

[QUOTE="Thunderdrone"]

When did i say that? I said "relegated to sub-8.5 scores". Meaning that they dont seem to be able to get any higher than that. Never said it was a sub-par score.

And i'm arguing because your "most Wii games lack the quality to reach the 9.0+ score" asked for an argument. Thats what these forums are for.

JLF1

And IMO they rarely do have that extra innovation or game-mechanic to deserve it.

It's just my opinion on the matter.

Here are a couple of Wii games that I find fit the argument. I'm only going to take up the thing that makes them 8.5 instead of 9.0 so don't think it's my overall opinion on the games.

Punch-out!! is a great game but they could have added a better multiplayer, more game-modes or something else.

NSMBW is 4-player fun but was bested the year earlier with LBP. It could have had online, it could have had more playable characters, it could have had better graphics. Hell, Nintendo even stated that they didn't have Peach as a playable character simply because it would take time to do it.

Kirby Epic Yarn is short, very easy and lack replay value.

No More Heroes 2 is the same game as the first one but with stuff taken out of it. Not improved.

Now, don't get me wrong. all games don't need something new or everything on a check-list most HD games seems to have. These games are all very high quality. It's just that these games are almost on their own check-list. We got the quality high enough so we will get the high scores and the high sales, we don't need to push further. It's the developers that think for a second and decides that they want to push further that potentialy gets the 9.0 scores.

Hell even some high profile AAA games on the HD consoles have stuff that could've made them better.

How much does this game cost? 800 MS points?maniacalrooster

Ok...I like to read game reviews as much as the next guy but...you people take these reviews WAAAAAY too seriously. Reviews are mostly opinions and not fact. The 8.5 that some of you are deeming a failure doesn't stop the fact this is an awesome game. I read reviews to get a sense of what the game is like, i don't take them to heart.

Hype is one of the things that I think ruins the 'gaming culture' (Know what i mean?...ok).

[QUOTE="maniacalrooster"]How much does this game cost? 800 MS points?OreoMilkshake

So what's the problem here?Willy105

People are bored of 8.5's and the score predictability of every Wii game in the past year.

Also, it seems a lot of people who played the game think it is AAA. I have yet to play it, so no comment on my part.

[QUOTE="Willy105"]So what's the problem here?AmayaPapaya

People are bored of 8.5's and the score predictability of every Wii game in the past year.

Also, it seems a lot of people who played the game think it is AAA. I have yet to play it, so no comment on my part.

[QUOTE="AmayaPapaya"]

[QUOTE="Willy105"]So what's the problem here?maniacalrooster

People are bored of 8.5's and the score predictability of every Wii game in the past year.

Also, it seems a lot of people who played the game think it is AAA. I have yet to play it, so no comment on my part.

[QUOTE="AmayaPapaya"]

[QUOTE="Willy105"]So what's the problem here?maniacalrooster

People are bored of 8.5's and the score predictability of every Wii game in the past year.

Also, it seems a lot of people who played the game think it is AAA. I have yet to play it, so no comment on my part.

I doubt it, considering pure nostalgia doesn't extend to the type of reviews DKCR has been getting.

Because Sonic 4 did so well right?

That too. The game sucks all around. It reminds them of the old Donkey Kong so they have to think it's great, but then it's missing a lot of the old stuff that made the series great.

@ JFL something;

If you can innovate while retaining the factors that we loved about the franchises at the same time, do it. That's what SMG2 is. Innovation, while 90% of the Mario fans totally loved this specific combination of new and old.

That's what Nintendo fans want. The right kind of new and the right kind of old.

Limbo is a cool experience, but an average platformer.

I think the consensus amongst Nintendo fans is; if you are going to innovate, it has to be done in the right way (which is the Nintendo perspective). Otherwise don't bother, and just give us a modern, super polished experience with the same core mechanics that we love.

At least that's how I am, fundamentally. It's a modern DKC that has incredible level design and some cool new concepts, and is extremly polished.

Why do you think we loved TP? (the negativity towards TP is the fight between which 3D Zelda is the best, but mostly everyone agrees that TP is still anamazing game regardless of rank) TP uses the same core formula, but in the area that it has changed, that's what matters to Nintendo fans.

I like the Nintendo perspective, I like what they consider good and bad and especially their decision making. It seems that you want new/different in areas I want to keep the same, this is basically what the issue is about.

When 90% of the Nintendo fans are really mad about some game, then it's a completely valid point to complain about. We want open doors in Other M, because we consider the exploration element as a core part of the series. Sakamoto wanted to make Other M a PS360 game i.e. cinematical with a somewhat big story and to focus on high paced action over exploration.That itself is not bad, but the fact that they choosed to close the doors was a big mistake. Even the big Nmakes mistakes occasionally. It was still agreat game, but not ideal.

That too. The game sucks all around. It reminds them of the old Donkey Kong so they have to think it's great, but then it's missing a lot of the old stuff that made the series great.

maniacalrooster

[QUOTE="maniacalrooster"]

That too. The game sucks all around. It reminds them of the old Donkey Kong so they have to think it's great, but then it's missing a lot of the old stuff that made the series great.

Willy105

[QUOTE="Willy105"][QUOTE="maniacalrooster"]

That too. The game sucks all around. It reminds them of the old Donkey Kong so they have to think it's great, but then it's missing a lot of the old stuff that made the series great.

maniacalrooster

[QUOTE="maniacalrooster"][QUOTE="Willy105"] It's a good theory. But is it happening? Anywhere?Willy105

Uhm yeah lol, it's called single player experience. Everything in life tends to end sometime :>

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

I wasn't attacking you, you're being a bit too overly defensive. I respect your opinion, I just view this issue from a different perspective is all.

I'm not comparing being a great platformer to being Mario. I think the old Sonic games for example are excellent and totally in the same realm and they play very different. I'm saying the actual act of platforming and the design constructed in challenging the player (challenge is used loosley, I don't mean it has to be challenging if that makes sense) to rely on their reflexes, skills and problem solving skills in the context of the game are not up to par. Like Thunder said, LBP is an awesome creation tool but it really is not much of a platformer. Limbo is an awesome puzzle game mixed with platforming elements but its not really a solid platformer in of itself. That's the point I'm making, fantastic games, crappy platformers.

The SMG comment was mine and I maintain that idea. Haven't played DKCR so no comment though the motion controls seem to be slightly bothersome to those I've talked to. Challenging the conventions of being a solid platformer isn't really the best idea, through and through the best platformers of old and the definitions of such stomp all over the games you mentioned besides meat boy. I'm not arguing the validity of how good the games are, I'm saying compared to the standard of old and even the standard of new, they fall way short of where they need to be to be considered "better" than something like SMG. Make sense?

Also, I never mentioned anything about score, I didn't actually know there was a discussion on that going on :P
As I said before, its just a matter of review philosphy, ours differ, neither is wrong (even if it seems like I am saying yours or GS is I'm not), just making my position known :)

JLF1

I never said that you attacked me or anything. I was just making sure that people knew were I was coming from with the scores. :P

I have been "attacked" before when stating that a game deserved a certain score thinking that score was really good. It's just that there are a lof of people who thinks anything below a 9.0 os bad.

I can agree on that Nintendo has constantly done the platforming in platformers better than anyone else. I personally think that games like Super Meat boy, Little Big Planet and Braid are more important than DKCR or NSMBW though simply because we already have games like those in the past. I'm not saying that are unnecessary, the genre is almost dead (well, was a few years ago anyway) so any quality game is needed. SMG/2 is in another league though.

I can fully understand why Retro didn't do anything shocking with the franchise. They clearly didn't want to scare away people or tamper with the formula. I have no problem with that all. The only thing that scares me a little are the motion-controls. Retro has done the best they can and have no problem with the lack of anyhing new of shiny. The game doesn't need it.

Most of the Wii games that 8.5 are games I agree with tbh. Not for the same resaons as gamespot but none the less I don't think tats vs cap, or epic yarn etc are really >9 titles. Still awesome games I love though, I'm enjoying MH3 (well was until school got busy) and its only an 8. I love RE5 and its only an 8.5 (I'm one of the only people who seems to like it, controls are ass though). In terms of importance I would agree, another DK game or kirby isn't really important but frankly I view industry pushing secondary to how much fun I'm having. Like I keep saying, its simply a difference in perspective.

I value mastery as much as I value innovation. Mastery of new concepts brings polished experiences. To create a master like title is very difficult and it shows just how much the industry can do with old concepts, I think that's incredibly important. I don't consider important better than polished. An important title ultimately still needs to meet my quality check. I won't play Limbo or Braid or LBP for high level platforming so I don't put much weight in what they do well if they aren't what I'm looking for when buying a particular title. (that's not a knock because its not like braid or Limbo were trying to be amazing platformers)Thing is I love platforming blended with pretty much any genre hence I'm always willing to give em a try. I just think that its unfair to regulate 8.5 to a polished concept and 9 to one that is great but not as polished as another game simply because of "pushing the industry forward" when the buying base doesn't care about pushing gaming forward.

LikeI said, all perspective. As for DKCR I just need to play it before I go on about how "awesome" it is. it could totally end up sucking and disappointing me :P

EDIT: Actic, i just read you haven't played DKCR yet. When you do be sure to share your opinions of your experience in this thread! :)

blahzor

It will probably be much later. I don't have my Wii at school and I won't be going home for a month :(

I totally want to share too, I want to see what Retro can do in another genre.

@ JFL something;

If you can innovate while retaining the factors that we loved about the franchises at the same time, do it. That's what SMG2 is. Innovation, while 90% of the Mario fans totally loved this specific combination of new and old.

That's what Nintendo fans want. The right kind of new and the right kind of old.

Limbo is a cool experience, but an average platformer.

I think the consensus amongst Nintendo fans is; if you are going to innovate, it has to be done in the right way (which is the Nintendo perspective). Otherwise don't bother, and just give us a modern, super polished experience with the same core mechanics that we love.

At least that's how I am, fundamentally. It's a modern DKC that has incredible level design and some cool new concepts, and is extremly polished.

Why do you think we loved TP? (the negativity towards TP is the fight between which 3D Zelda is the best, but mostly everyone agrees that TP is still anamazing game regardless of rank) TP uses the same core formula, but in the area that it has changed, that's what matters to Nintendo fans.

I like the Nintendo perspective, I like what they consider good and bad and especially their decision making. It seems that you want new/different in areas I want to keep the same, this is basically what the issue is about.

When 90% of the Nintendo fans are really mad about some game, then it's a completely valid point to complain about. We want open doors in Other M, because we consider the exploration element as a core part of the series. Sakamoto wanted to make Other M a PS360 game i.e. cinematical with a somewhat big story and to focus on high paced action over exploration.That itself is not bad, but the fact that they choosed to close the doors was a big mistake. Even the big Nmakes mistakes occasionally. It was still agreat game, but not ideal.

kontejner44

I'm a nintendo fan but I don't really share much of that perspective. The first issue there is that TP was a really bland Zelda game. Sure in the context of everything else out there it is probably a 9.0 game but in terms of just envoking that Zelda feel, I honestly like Windwaker a lot more.

I also don't believe in innovating the right way. I believe in good design and crappy design. Innovation is ultimately design and if its crap then its not innovation, its just a poorly excuted concept. New concepts aren't ever done in the "right" way, I just think they are either below, at or above par for someone's enjoyment. I also hardly consider nintendo to be amazing innovators. They just bring good and unique design to their games.

[QUOTE="SpinoRaptor24"]

[QUOTE="bobbetybob"]So it lost a whole 1.5 because you have to shake the controller to roll...*sigh*.bobbetybob

Do you honestly believe the game would have scored a perfect 10 if you pressed a button to roll? I though Tom and Kevin made it clear that games don't start at a perfect 10 before being docked points for every flaw.

That just comes back to what I posted earlier from the Justin Calvert interview: all games start as 1s and earn each point. Therefore, according to Tom McShea the level of goodness in DKCR is about 8.5 out of a possible 10. That doesn't sound like a half-hearted "Well, I GUESS it's okay, but it has a lot of problems," it sounds like "This game is pretty awesome!"

Which is what the review conveyed. It didn't convey that it was amazingly good, which is what you would expect from a 9 or a 10, but that it was very very good at what it was doing (straightforward old-school platforming).

Can anyone see the review? I bet one of the complaints is difficulty :P

AmayaPapaya

So much for "winning" E3 this year, huh? Bread_or_Decide

For what Retro has done with the IP, this is nothing less than a 9.5 game. It is hands-down the best 2D platforming available. How this gets a 8.5 is beyond me. It is understandable when a review is taken as the reviewer's enjoyment of a game, but GS has always tried to sell their reviews as some kind of "objective analysis."

foxhound_fox

Well stated as usual foxhound, I have not played a better 2d sidescrolling platformer in years! To all of those questioning why some of us are upset with the "8.5" score, its not because of the score itself but rather the reasoning. Of course it is only one man's opinion, but when you compare it to the sites standards as a whole, it should make sense. NSMBW recieved and 8.5. I liked it a lot and had a lot of fun with it. Was it innovative,creative,artiscially driven....NO! Did it deserve an 8.5, probably but only for resting on its namesake and laurels. DKC on the other hand took a classic game character and forumla to new heights with amazing level design, great platforming, co-op and some of the best art direction I've ever seen, HD or not. There is no logical way to rate NSMBW(lazy cash in by the worlds greatest 1st party developer) to DKCR(amazing effort by an amazing sub developer).

So what's the problem here?Willy105