HD era too soon?

i feel (as someone who loves 2D game programming) that this HD era with PS3 and 360 is a generation too soon and that its hurting the gaming industry.

we get good games from the big companies like ubi, EA, etc. but what about all the independant games? katamari (published by namco i know), strong bad, lost winds, N+, de blob? very rarely do the smaller indie game developers get chances to push their product on a unified gaming platform like a 360, ps3 or wii.

i love my PS3, i do. but i'm tired of being fed shooters and sports games. same for 360.

i want unique games. and when it costs say, $1 million to make a game for the xbox 360 a smaller company may want to take risks with their project, maybe make a long running idea into a more concrete product but coz of high development costs they can't take that risk. so they make a sports, shooter, or something else popular.

they don't have as much freedom, i think thats why even with bigger companies like atari, square enix, capcom, we're seeing a huge crunch of companies merging or buying other companies. it costs too much to make games.

theres no advantage to making artistically driven games on HD consoles unless you make a game into a popular genre or you're company name is Electronic Arts.

why wouldnt capcom expand to the west? their still cranking out ps2 games in japan, so they want to help american make them money too. they will spend millions of dollars on street fighter 4, resident evil 5, just to profit very little.

when if they development costs were as low as say, the ps2, they could profit more, then have more money to give to smaller internal projects like viewtiful joe, okami, killer 7. see what i'm saying?

i feel that wiiware, psn, xbl are helping this situation. esspecially XNA game studio, as i use it.

but it isn't enough.

lets see how many square enix games have come out for wii and ds this year? dozens. world ends with you, final fantasy fables, arkanoid, final fantasy tactics.

on 360/ps3? last remnant, undiscovery and what else??????

coz the costs are too high. i'm not saying quantity is better than quality, i'm saying though that with that quantity there's a better chance for new ideas , where as with IU, and LR we have standard RPGs. nothing original like TWEWY.

Look at the console sales. Yes it was too soon, they should have waited for the tech to be cheaper. I own two HDtvs but MANY MANY people still cant afford one or are happy with their SDTVs for now.

From a business perspective; it was too soon

a good point is this

capcom makes deadrising on 360

it sells 2 million copies, good. but being an early adopter to the 360 made the development costs very, very high.

so now its 2 years later, 2008 and deadrising if it sold 2 million more copies now capcom could profit more since it wouldn't cost as much to make deadrising version 2006 as it would with the technology of 2008.

but deadrising has been sitting on store shelves for 2 years, it isn't going to sell more than 5,000 copies a week in any given territory for 360 just coz its old. nothing against the game, its just a dog eat dog industry.

what does capcom do? they take the code for deadrising 360, port it down to wii (which is cheaper than making it for 360) add some features like IR-based aiming. and whalla! they can profit more on selling deadrising on wii than they ever would on 360 and just might add a million or two units of sales.

they wanted to adopt this HD generation but didn't make money off of it so they ported a good game that they know has a strong chance to sell well on a more popular, cheaper console, to make back the original development costs and then some.

now not everyone does this, but you see what i'm saying. i think come 2011 or 2012 when the next wii, xbox, playstation come out that the costs will be lower to make games

if they aren't, god have mercy on the gaming industry. i don't think it can survive another generation like this one.

I don't think so. All TV broadcasts will be digital in less than 6 months, it was time. This gen will just last a bit longer than any other.

I have a 40" Samsung 1080p LCD in my bedroom. There are two other HDTVs in my house (42" Samsung Plasma, and 60" Mitsubishi DLP). I enjoy HD TV programming as well as games, so I don't think it was too early at all. There are plenty of budget HDTVs out in the market right now. Just look at those Vizio sets.ZOnikJJ

i have a budget HDTV.

i have a ps3 and a wii, DS too

with rising tuition costs, gas prices, and the housing market in american where it is, let alone the entire economy

it isn't easy to own all these luxuries. i haven't had AC in my car for 2 years. why? unneeded luxury.

i want it ever so badly. but $200 on fixing it won't pay my tuition.

thats why it was hard to even buy my wii, ps3, ds.

i'm a gamer, i guess you could label me "hardcore" not that i care, but i can't stay away from gaming

not every household is like that. god forbid people get struck with terrible financial bills like debt, or even worse medical bills for treating a terrible illness

I don't think so. All TV broadcasts will be digital in less than 6 months, it was time. This gen will just last a bit longer than any other.

DisPimpin

i think this year or next year would've been a great time for ps3, wii, 360 to come out.

really. think of all the games that would've been waiting. deadrising, bioshock, gears, galaxy, MGS4, etc..

[QUOTE="ZOnikJJ"]I have a 40" Samsung 1080p LCD in my bedroom. There are two other HDTVs in my house (42" Samsung Plasma, and 60" Mitsubishi DLP). I enjoy HD TV programming as well as games, so I don't think it was too early at all. There are plenty of budget HDTVs out in the market right now. Just look at those Vizio sets.darth-pyschosis

i have a budget HDTV.

i have a ps3 and a wii, DS too

with rising tuition costs, gas prices, and the housing market in american where it is, let alone the entire economy

it isn't easy to own all these luxuries. i haven't had AC in my car for 2 years. why? unneeded luxury.

i want it ever so badly. but $200 on fixing it won't pay my tuition.

thats why it was hard to even buy my wii, ps3, ds.

i'm a gamer, i guess you could label me "hardcore" not that i care, but i can't stay away from gaming

not every household is like that. god forbid people get struck with terrible financial bills like debt, or even worse medical bills for treating a terrible illness

a good point is this

capcom makes deadrising on 360

it sells 2 million copies, good. but being an early adopter to the 360 made the development costs very, very high.

so now its 2 years later, 2008 and deadrising if it sold 2 million more copies now capcom could profit more since it wouldn't cost as much to make deadrising version 2006 as it would with the technology of 2008.

but deadrising has been sitting on store shelves for 2 years, it isn't going to sell more than 5,000 copies a week in any given territory for 360 just coz its old. nothing against the game, its just a dog eat dog industry.

what does capcom do? they take the code for deadrising 360, port it down to wii (which is cheaper than making it for 360) add some features like IR-based aiming. and whalla! they can profit more on selling deadrising on wii than they ever would on 360 and just might add a million or two units of sales.

they wanted to adopt this HD generation but didn't make money off of it so they ported a good game that they know has a strong chance to sell well on a more popular, cheaper console, to make back the original development costs and then some.

now not everyone does this, but you see what i'm saying. i think come 2011 or 2012 when the next wii, xbox, playstation come out that the costs will be lower to make games

if they aren't, god have mercy on the gaming industry. i don't think it can survive another generation like this one.

darth-pyschosis

^Pretty much. The thing is, some people give Nintendo alot of crap for them not going the HD route this gen. Well guess what? The majority of the consumers still dont feel the need to spend that amount of money on HD TV+HD console+HD movies(PS3).

Companies are also pretty much compromised when developing HD games, they HAVE to go the saffest route and more importantly they have to have money to do it . Thats why you dont see the same variety of games as last gen. Also, smaller talanted companies just cant produce more then one game if any at all for the HDs, for example Marvelous(Little King Story, Arc Rise Fantasia, Morumasa Deomon's Blade and Run Factory Frontier, all for the Wii)

[QUOTE="ZOnikJJ"]I have a 40" Samsung 1080p LCD in my bedroom. There are two other HDTVs in my house (42" Samsung Plasma, and 60" Mitsubishi DLP). I enjoy HD TV programming as well as games, so I don't think it was too early at all. There are plenty of budget HDTVs out in the market right now. Just look at those Vizio sets.darth-pyschosis

i have a budget HDTV.

i have a ps3 and a wii, DS too

with rising tuition costs, gas prices, and the housing market in american where it is, let alone the entire economy

it isn't easy to own all these luxuries. i haven't had AC in my car for 2 years. why? unneeded luxury.

i want it ever so badly. but $200 on fixing it won't pay my tuition.

thats why it was hard to even buy my wii, ps3, ds.

i'm a gamer, i guess you could label me "hardcore" not that i care, but i can't stay away from gaming

not every household is like that. god forbid people get struck with terrible financial bills like debt, or even worse medical bills for treating a terrible illness

[QUOTE="darth-pyschosis"]

[QUOTE="ZOnikJJ"]I have a 40" Samsung 1080p LCD in my bedroom. There are two other HDTVs in my house (42" Samsung Plasma, and 60" Mitsubishi DLP). I enjoy HD TV programming as well as games, so I don't think it was too early at all. There are plenty of budget HDTVs out in the market right now. Just look at those Vizio sets.Taylorgc2004

i have a budget HDTV.

i have a ps3 and a wii, DS too

with rising tuition costs, gas prices, and the housing market in american where it is, let alone the entire economy

it isn't easy to own all these luxuries. i haven't had AC in my car for 2 years. why? unneeded luxury.

i want it ever so badly. but $200 on fixing it won't pay my tuition.

thats why it was hard to even buy my wii, ps3, ds.

i'm a gamer, i guess you could label me "hardcore" not that i care, but i can't stay away from gaming

not every household is like that. god forbid people get struck with terrible financial bills like debt, or even worse medical bills for treating a terrible illness

i was just about to reply to the guy who lives in arizona

i live in the town of the 4 time NBA champion Spurs.

so yes i live in texas.

San Antonio has like a 2 month winter. AC is a luxury. i know. i hate not having it. but i can go without it.

I have to agree. We've already seen the effects on a several companies. Look at EA. They make most of their sales on the 360, but they've recorded 6 consecutive quarters of losses. That's bad and means more successful formulas will be used in games. Look at SE and Konami. They've invested heavily into Final Fantasy and MGS. Their other offerings have been pretty bad with little innovation except for their games on handhelds.

Game dev costs are killing this industry and making unique games disappear rapidly. As for PSN, XBL, and Wiiware, I think this helps a bit, but it's not a stopgap. Games for these online services don't sell as much as retail games. Yeah, they're not as expensive and indie companies can make games for it, but to expand on it, we need lower dev costs for retail releases.

I have to agree. We've already seen the effects on a several companies. Look at EA. They make most of their sales on the 360, but they've recorded 6 consecutive quarters of losses. That's bad and means more successful formulas will be used in games. Look at SE and Konami. They've invested heavily into Final Fantasy and MGS. Their other offerings have been pretty bad with little innovation except for their games on handhelds.

Game dev costs are killing this industry and making unique games disappear rapidly. As for PSN, XBL, and Wiiware, I think this helps a bit, but it's not a stopgap. Games for these online services don't sell as much as retail games. Yeah, they're not as expensive and indie companies can make games for it, but to expand on it, we need lower dev costs for retail releases.

Zhengi

very good post.

if every game on retail shelves had the replayability of Everyday Shooter, and Geomtery Wars mixed with the expansive story of mass effect, simplicity of super mario galaxy, and engrossing world as zelda, oblivion, etc. we wouldn't have this problem.

the problem is people with new ideas don't have money to spread their ideas.

the people with money don't have time for new ideas. they have time for more money.

though i don't think EA would make their own console, who can blame them for wanting to theoritically make one while acwuiring companies like take two?

i also blame this "lets sell our hardware at a huge loss" trend set by microsoft and sony a little too.

they could have more money to make games if they didn't have to take in the wallet everytime they manufacture a damn unit

i dunno.

i really think this whole HD generation will start booming with the new consoles in 2011 or 2012

when all HD generation games will be ACTUAL native 720p or 1080p with HDMI.

well i hope nintendos console is 720p with HDMI or 1080p with component.

I have to agree. We've already seen the effects on a several companies. Look at EA. They make most of their sales on the 360, but they've recorded 6 consecutive quarters of losses. That's bad and means more successful formulas will be used in games. Look at SE and Konami. They've invested heavily into Final Fantasy and MGS. Their other offerings have been pretty bad with little innovation except for their games on handhelds.

Game dev costs are killing this industry and making unique games disappear rapidly. As for PSN, XBL, and Wiiware, I think this helps a bit, but it's not a stopgap. Games for these online services don't sell as much as retail games. Yeah, they're not as expensive and indie companies can make games for it, but to expand on it, we need lower dev costs for retail releases.

Zhengi

The cost of gaming is only the fault of the developers. If EA wanted to scale back the cost of development, they could. Don't make excuses for developers who keep throwing bigger budgets at games to try to make them stand out. No one forces them to do that.

Look at the console sales. Yes it was too soon, they should have waited for the tech to be cheaper. I own two HDtvs but MANY MANY people still cant afford one or are happy with their SDTVs for now.

From a business perspective; it was too soon

Fawlcon_Pawnch

More to the point, they should have waited until HDTVs had the majority of household placement, instead of minority to SDTVs.

i think so... i just bought a new 32" sony bravia like 2 3 months ago just for gaming. i got realy pissed off about how i had to sit realy close to read the text because i wasn't watching t in hd. so i went out and bought a new one sure it was worth it but i don't have digital cable so i barely get any hd channels.

those cheap cheap HDtv arn't worth it.... those things break easier then regular ones.

So wait. This generation, which is the first one ever where Indie developers can actually sell product to consumers on home consoles, is bad for Indie developers, and the solution would be to have them unable to sell their games for another 5+ years?SpruceCaboose

OK tell me one succsessful retail indie game on the 360 or ps3? sales-wise.

[QUOTE="SpruceCaboose"]So wait. This generation, which is the first one ever where Indie developers can actually sell product to consumers on home consoles, is bad for Indie developers, and the solution would be to have them unable to sell their games for another 5+ years?darth-pyschosis

OK tell me one succsessful retail indie game on the 360 or ps3? sales-wise.

Braid and Everyday Shooter. I could list more, but you asked for one.

[QUOTE="SpruceCaboose"]So wait. This generation, which is the first one ever where Indie developers can actually sell product to consumers on home consoles, is bad for Indie developers, and the solution would be to have them unable to sell their games for another 5+ years?darth-pyschosis

OK tell me one succsessful retail indie game on the 360 or ps3? sales-wise.

those consoles are like the first console for indie devs

Braid, Castle Crashers, Alien Homid, etc.

[QUOTE="darth-pyschosis"]

[QUOTE="SpruceCaboose"]So wait. This generation, which is the first one ever where Indie developers can actually sell product to consumers on home consoles, is bad for Indie developers, and the solution would be to have them unable to sell their games for another 5+ years?SpruceCaboose

OK tell me one succsessful retail indie game on the 360 or ps3? sales-wise.

Braid and Everyday Shooter. I could list more, but you asked for one.

Yeah theres tons, this is the first generation where you can have pure graphics or pure gameplay, or both, small games, or epic breath taking titles, its all up to the devs, HD might have spoiled me, I still play a lot of older games, but I think HD technology is cheap enough that waiting so many more years would be utterly pointless.

[QUOTE="Zhengi"]

I have to agree. We've already seen the effects on a several companies. Look at EA. They make most of their sales on the 360, but they've recorded 6 consecutive quarters of losses. That's bad and means more successful formulas will be used in games. Look at SE and Konami. They've invested heavily into Final Fantasy and MGS. Their other offerings have been pretty bad with little innovation except for their games on handhelds.

Game dev costs are killing this industry and making unique games disappear rapidly. As for PSN, XBL, and Wiiware, I think this helps a bit, but it's not a stopgap. Games for these online services don't sell as much as retail games. Yeah, they're not as expensive and indie companies can make games for it, but to expand on it, we need lower dev costs for retail releases.

SpruceCaboose

The cost of gaming is only the fault of the developers. If EA wanted to scale back the cost of development, they could. Don't make excuses for developers who keep throwing bigger budgets at games to try to make them stand out. No one forces them to do that.

You're right, no one is forcing them to throw big money towards games especially when there are viable options. That's all on them. However, this doesn't mean that the blame can't be placed on the hardware manufacturers and gamers. If MS didn't come out with the 360 with its higher development costs, than everyone would have been happy with a moderate improvement in graphics. But since this is where HD gaming is headed and where gamers are demanding it goes, 3rd party devs have to put resources into making those types of game, or otherwise, they risk having a game bomb on their hands.

There are viable options though and companies like EA are starting to realize this. That's why they admit they bet on the wrong horses after they posted losses in their fiscal reports. This is why there are more and more games being announced for those non-HD systems.

Also, judging by the games that are being released this gen compared to last gen, there were just so many more games being released last gen that it makes this current gen into a yawn fest.

If MS didn't come out with the 360 with its higher development costs, than everyone would have been happy with a moderate improvement in graphics.

Zhengi

...or they would have all just bought PS3's. :)

the 'hd era' started in 98' when pc games started doin' it (see HL)

so...i dont think it started to soon, it started far to late for the consoles

I agree. Its not millions of dollars to make games its literally billions. Or at least, to make RE5.

Its not good for the industry. Its only thinning out the games we have, directing producers to the most profitable formualas leading to further stagnation, and killing the smaller productions in the process. Some of the most acclaimed series' we've had started as little projects when the PS1 truly got the 3D era started. When are we going to see that type of creativity again?

Furthermore, installments in a series will probably be further and further apart.

What HD era? Half the high profile games that come out for the 360 and PS3 aren't even in 720p! :lol:mjarantilla

That's quite the extreme exaggeration. The overwhelming majority of 360 and PS3 games are native 720p.

[QUOTE="Zhengi"]

If MS didn't come out with the 360 with its higher development costs, than everyone would have been happy with a moderate improvement in graphics.

Teufelhuhn

...or they would have all just bought PS3's. :)

I think the PS3 was hurt badly by that $600 price tag and disasterous E3. However, even if devs focus on the PS3, the costs would still be pretty high especially with what Sony promised the PS3 could accomplish. Could it have been more successful for the HD consoles only having one instead of having two fracturing the install base? Possibly, but that we won't really know.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]What HD era? Half the high profile games that come out for the 360 and PS3 aren't even in 720p! :lol:Teufelhuhn

That's quite the extreme exaggeration. The overwhelming majority of 360 and PS3 games are native 720p.

...and have performance issues. :)

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]What HD era? Half the high profile games that come out for the 360 and PS3 aren't even in 720p! :lol:mjarantilla

That's quite the extreme exaggeration. The overwhelming majority of 360 and PS3 games are native 720p.

...and have performance issues. :)

If that wasn't the zing to end all zings :o

...and have performance issues. :)

mjarantilla

You're right, no one is forcing them to throw big money towards games especially when there are viable options. That's all on them. However, this doesn't mean that the blame can't be placed on the hardware manufacturers and gamers. If MS didn't come out with the 360 with its higher development costs, than everyone would have been happy with a moderate improvement in graphics. But since this is where HD gaming is headed and where gamers are demanding it goes, 3rd party devs have to put resources into making those types of game, or otherwise, they risk having a game bomb on their hands.

There are viable options though and companies like EA are starting to realize this. That's why they admit they bet on the wrong horses after they posted losses in their fiscal reports. This is why there are more and more games being announced for those non-HD systems.

Also, judging by the games that are being released this gen compared to last gen, there were just so many more games being released last gen that it makes this current gen into a yawn fest.

Zhengi

You do realize that the PS3 was supposed to release just about the same time as the 360, and both had specs well finalized before Nov 2005. You make it seem like MS did something and everyone had to follow suit.

Did Nintendo follow MS? No. So again, these companies made their own choices. They were in no way forced on them.

And again, I have way, way more games than I can play. To the point that I am actually not buying at least a dozen games that I want to play this holiday, so I have no idea who you are speaking for when you say this is a yawn fest of a generation, but I suggest you keep things like that well framed in your own opinion instead of trying to make them blanket truths.

Agreed the HD era came too soon no systems can handle 1080p at good graphics and stability..ect and the same with 720p.WilliamRLBaker

And that is not true either. In some cases, that is true. In others, its not.

a good point is this

capcom makes deadrising on 360

it sells 2 million copies, good. but being an early adopter to the 360 made the development costs very, very high.

so now its 2 years later, 2008 and deadrising if it sold 2 million more copies now capcom could profit more since it wouldn't cost as much to make deadrising version 2006 as it would with the technology of 2008.

but deadrising has been sitting on store shelves for 2 years, it isn't going to sell more than 5,000 copies a week in any given territory for 360 just coz its old. nothing against the game, its just a dog eat dog industry.

what does capcom do? they take the code for deadrising 360, port it down to wii (which is cheaper than making it for 360) add some features like IR-based aiming. and whalla! they can profit more on selling deadrising on wii than they ever would on 360 and just might add a million or two units of sales.

they wanted to adopt this HD generation but didn't make money off of it so they ported a good game that they know has a strong chance to sell well on a more popular, cheaper console, to make back the original development costs and then some.

now not everyone does this, but you see what i'm saying. i think come 2011 or 2012 when the next wii, xbox, playstation come out that the costs will be lower to make games

if they aren't, god have mercy on the gaming industry. i don't think it can survive another generation like this one.

darth-pyschosis

You are wrong... the tech from 2006 & 2008 are the same in this case.... the tech is the 360.... Dead Rising wouldnt cost any more or less to make in 2006 or 2008. They are still working with the same hardware/software, and would still need the same amount of people on the project, seeing as it would still be the same game.

Games don't become easier to make over time, they become easier to make with experience.... If a company just waits and waits and waits.... things will never become easier (cheaper) for them, because they still have no experience, therefore they make more mistakes, need to correct those mistakes which equals longer dev time which = more money.

360 Tech in 2006 = 360 Tech in 2008

the only variable that changes is experience, and you don't get that by sitting on your fanny waiting for time to pass.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

...and have performance issues. :)

Teufelhuhn

The vast majority of high profile games. Notice that in my original post. Barring sports, fighting, and racing games, which require the fewest resources to run, how many games can you name that don't have at least one of the following issues:

* Screen-tearing (e.g. Saints Row)
* Unsteady framerate (e.g. Bioshock, Mass Effect, Oblivion)
* Memory leak (e.g. Oblivion)
* Low/sub-HD resolution (e.g. Halo 3, COD4, MGS4)
* Texture/object pop-in (e.g. GTAIV, Gears of War, Mass Effect)
* Unreasonably long/frequent load times (e.g. Mass Effect, Oblivion)

Development costs aren't killing the industry, the industry following a releasing formula that hasn't changed for 12 years and has been, wrongfully, cemented since its birth is killing the industry.

So wait. This generation, which is the first one ever where Indie developers can actually sell product to consumers on home consoles, is bad for Indie developers, and the solution would be to have them unable to sell their games for another 5+ years?SpruceCaboose

What? :?

The cost of gaming is only the fault of the developers. If EA wanted to scale back the cost of development, they could. Don't make excuses for developers who keep throwing bigger budgets at games to try to make them stand out. No one forces them to do that.SpruceCaboose

If you want to compete and be big in todays industry you HAVE to. EA can't scale back on development because that would mean that they'd have to make less teams and by making less teams that means that it would take far more time to create their games thus resulting in the inability to put out Madden every year or to compete against rival companies trying to take a bigger piece of the gaming pie. Bionic Commando and Dark Void HAVE to have big budgets to maintain that "epic" and "big production" feel. Because if they don't then they'll easily get overlooked by the other megatons out there.

And the thing is if you don't you get eaten alive. I don't even need to give detailed examples just look at the entire Japanese market, counting out Nintendo and Capcom. They didn't put all they had this generation nor towards the end of the previous generation. The result is as you see Japanese publishers now have a difficult time trying to sell their games outside of Japan. An the only ones who don't have a problem with this are Nintendo and Capcom which are the only two Japanese companys that maintained consistent since the twilight of the previous generation (Resident Evil 4, Devil May Cry 3/Mario Kart DS, Metroid Prime 2) the begining of the current generation(Dead Rising, Lost Planet/Wii Sports, Twilight Princess) towards the current (Devil May Cry 4/ Super Smash Bros. Brawl) and even the future (Street Fighter IV, Bionic Commando, Tatsunoko vs Capcom, it's coming here but probably with a different license,/Animal Crossing, Wii Music). Now obviously production differs between some of those but what they all have in common is that they had broad appeal and sold a substantal amount. And unless your name is "Nintendo" you can't drive in big sales from casual games unless you get very lucky, and even then those titles are usually one hit wonders.

Indie games? On consoles? I'm sure developers have fun with that. I mean putting games on a service controlled by corporations with their own rules as well as being tied with big name publishers. That probably explains why there are never any full realized games on those services. The PC indie scene has had games like these for years just look at some popular indie full games like The Ship or Aquaria. Of course the console makers won't allow these games to be on their DLC services because they bring upon too much competition amongst the other games and even their retail games, can't have that. There have been plenty of these games that tryed to make the transfer from PC to console but wouldn't be allowed on XBLA, PSN, or Wiiware because of that reason. But once a big publisher asks for it it is all gravy. Hell Capcom even got services to allow their extra space for Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix a game that easily rivals any fighting game on those consoles. Yet if a no name developer even attempted to put a game like that on XBLA or PSN they'd be denied immediately. Yeah a real strong "independent" scene we have there. :roll:

But what if you are in between? Like the majority of developer who worked on the Playstation 2 last generation? It isn't a surprise why there are so many less niche games on consoles because those developers who make them just can't anymore. They are too big and epic for downloadable content yet wouldn't be able to compete with the bigger guys at retail as well as it would take too much time and money to create those games. Hell just look at what happened to Double Fine last generation with Psychonauts. They started creating the game 4 years before it was released. They decided to do a platformer because at that time they were the current "in" thing for the market with games like Conker's Bad Fur Day, OddWorld Munch's Odyessy, Klonoa 2, Sonic Adventure 2, and what not. By the time they got done with the game the genres sales performance was cemented into mediocrity. Psychonauts was destined to fail. And now you want developers to make games on the bigger consoles?

I could easily go on about the problems there could be with the Wii and handhelds. But the point I'm trying to address is the whole philosophy of the current gaming market. The market is getting far too big to have other companys calling the shots of what hundreds of publishers and thousands of developers can and can't do on their systems, what is the "standard" in tech pushing the game must acheive, the image that the games should present on the consoles, how long the console will last. To me that is the problem with the market. HD and pushing tech forward isn't, but the idea that the developers must take that route or another route that offers only its own set specific things and nothing else more.

I think the way people are handling this new HD era is by focusing on the new generation. Take HD TVs for instance. They are expensive and most people don't really want or can't afford to upgrade. The new genreration "us" will probably upgrade sooner then the old genreration.

Ex) Where I go to school and some (or most by now) of the apartment complexes they have added 42'' inch HDTVs to the aprartment complexes for free. (its a free amendaity (spelling) or whatever they call it). Now most of these college students when they grow up will probably fine jobs and buy HD TVs sonner or later due to past expriences. Maybe, if they can find a job in this economy.

I don't think that the HD era has come too soon, but I think its in the right postion. I just don't think many people actually know the influence of how much HDTVs have.

There is no such thing as the "HD era", these resolutions are nothing new and have been used in games for over a decade. If there was a HD era it happened a long time ago, it only got noticed when TVs decided to join in.

That said I do think TV resolutions are moving too fast for consoles own good, imagine if the majority of PS3 games were 1080p like hyped? The system would be dated before its time because of the resources robbed by the resolution.

Consoles are "good enough" cheap gaming machines for the masses, they should remember that and stick to a quality level were good performance can be maintained.

[QUOTE="Zhengi"]You're right, no one is forcing them to throw big money towards games especially when there are viable options. That's all on them. However, this doesn't mean that the blame can't be placed on the hardware manufacturers and gamers. If MS didn't come out with the 360 with its higher development costs, than everyone would have been happy with a moderate improvement in graphics. But since this is where HD gaming is headed and where gamers are demanding it goes, 3rd party devs have to put resources into making those types of game, or otherwise, they risk having a game bomb on their hands.

There are viable options though and companies like EA are starting to realize this. That's why they admit they bet on the wrong horses after they posted losses in their fiscal reports. This is why there are more and more games being announced for those non-HD systems.

Also, judging by the games that are being released this gen compared to last gen, there were just so many more games being released last gen that it makes this current gen into a yawn fest.

SpruceCaboose

You do realize that the PS3 was supposed to release just about the same time as the 360, and both had specs well finalized before Nov 2005. You make it seem like MS did something and everyone had to follow suit.

Did Nintendo follow MS? No. So again, these companies made their own choices. They were in no way forced on them.

And again, I have way, way more games than I can play. To the point that I am actually not buying at least a dozen games that I want to play this holiday, so I have no idea who you are speaking for when you say this is a yawn fest of a generation, but I suggest you keep things like that well framed in your own opinion instead of trying to make them blanket truths.

No, I didn't mean that this was only MS' fault cause Sony was also going for the high end console gaming. What I meant was that when the 360 released, that was the start of high dev costs.

As for Nintendo doing their own things, that seems to have been the right decision as they are selling much more hardware and selling very good software numbers. This just continues to show that the HD era was too soon as everyone else is losing their shirts over HD.

I'm speaking for myself when I say this is a yawn fest of a generation, especially on HD consoles. Not too many games interest me at all. Only 1 or 2 games on the 360 even begin to pique my interest. The PS3 has a few games, but I only have two games on mine and those are MGS4 and Rock Band. So nowhere am I making blanket statements to cover everyone. You can decide to interpret it that way, but that isn't why I'm saying what I'm saying.

[QUOTE="darth-pyschosis"]

[QUOTE="SpruceCaboose"]So wait. This generation, which is the first one ever where Indie developers can actually sell product to consumers on home consoles, is bad for Indie developers, and the solution would be to have them unable to sell their games for another 5+ years?SpruceCaboose

OK tell me one succsessful retail indie game on the 360 or ps3? sales-wise.

Braid and Everyday Shooter. I could list more, but you asked for one.

I love everyday shooter but honestly dude, its not like those games will sell a million

i can't imagine, as good as ES is, that it has sold over 100,000 on PSN.

and by the way I SAID RETAIL.

not downloadable. downloadable games often don't sell well. hell even ocarina of time on VC probably hasn't sold over a million.

my point remains, the smaller indie devs. are being collectively squezzed out by bigger publishers and rising production costs.

and besides, Wii development kits costing as low as $2,000 is helping indie devs. not enough. consumers must help by not buying call of pro skater 5: modern evil may cry 17 every year in droves, and then not buy odin sphere, okami, etc.

they don't even take risks to purchase lesser known IPs from decently popular publishers, so of course actual indie companies and indie IPs fail even quicker.

look at it this way. I love N. great flash game. deep, addictive, etc.

so why has the PSP, and DS version, released August 12th, dropped from $29.99 to $19.99 at all retailers in a matter of a few weeks?

game is generally received as fun, either people don't take the chance thus hurting the gaming industry or the publisher drops the price hoping to increase sales by giving the title a budget price, hopefully to turn a better profit

I might be talking out my butt, but I actually think the problem is that this gen is not HD enough, for this hardware the HD standard for games should be 1080p, not sub-720p. That would actually cut down the costs for development.

It's not the resolution that makes games so expensive to make, it's all the other crap like lighting and polygons. The lower the resolution they can get away with, the fancier lighting etc. they can and have to implement in the game to compete. And that costs money.