How JRPGs can learn from FFXIII

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hakanakumono

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#1 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

Final Fantasy XIII is a pretty controversial JRPG. And it's definitely not perfect. There are things that it does right and there are things that it does wrong. JRPGs can learn from both the negatives and the positives of FFXIII.

Utilitarian design is smart for story focused JRPGs. In FFXIII, a normal forest is the staging for the character development of two major characters and it sets the stage for the next portion in the plot. Normally in a JRPG, areas like the Gapra Whitewood are merely filler with little to no contribution or relevance to the story (aside from maybe being interesting scenarios the characters encounter). By including cutscenes interspersed throughout the forest, it was able to make a meaningful contribution to the story. JRPGs can benefit from making sure all of the areas in the game are purposeful or meaningful.

Utilitarian does not mean bare-bones game design. In the very same forest, Lightning mentions that they should "follow the light to prevent from getting lost," but there is only one possible path. If the area were fleshed out it would be far more intersting and offer even more than the utilitarian design gives it. Being a story focused JRPG isn't an excuse for poor map design.

Short cutscenes can pack a punch.FFXIII utilizes a lot of very short cutscenes instead of very long cutscenes in order to tell it's story, preventing the overdrawn cutscenes present in games like MGS4.

But crafting a story entirely composed of short cutscenes isn't advisable. FFXIII seems to be designed with the notion that no cutscene int he game can exceed 3 minutes and there can only be less than 20% of the game time composed of cutscenes. The problem is that the story in FFXIII just needed more. There are going times when scenes just need to be longer, and a game just needs to take it's time or it'll end up rushed and it won't allow the story to properly develop, scenes to flow properly, and overall reduce the strength of the plot in the game. JRPGS shouldn't be afraid to slowly build up scenes.

Having game elements for the sake of having game elements is not good game design. FFXIII does away with having the player heal using MP, forcing the player to heal themselves after battle, or buy armor. In JRPGs where you have to buy armor at frequent intervals, enemies are balanced to make up for that armor. So what is the purpose of the armor? To fight the more difficult enemies. Why are there more difficult enemies? For the sake of including armor. It's just there for the sake of being there and isn't meaningful. By focusing on accessories that focus on different resistances (for example 20% physical resistance or 25% lightning resistance), FFXIII is able to take the concept of "armor" and turn it's on it's head, making it something meaningful that allows for player customization and even strategy for locations that might have lots of thunder based enemies and the like.

Buying potions is not a challenge.Likewise, forcing the player to heal themselves and resort to things like potions isn't a "challenge" it's just a mechanism that forces the player to grind in order to have the money in order to afford the potions. Final Fantasy is not Resident Evil. You cannot just "play better" and not take damage; You're going to take damage no matter what and in a system linked to gil based or MP based healing, it's just there for the sake of being there and bogs down gameplay. The trend that has arisen from this is that the actual gameplay is much less challenging to make up for the fact that the player is running on limited resources. FFXIII is able to create a greater challenge only because it does away with these constricting elements that really make no sense in the context of the gameplay. More JRPGS need to isolate the "challenge" to individual battles, rather than trying to provide a false sense of challenge through "micromanagement."

Hire translators who translate. One of the problems with FFXIII is that many of it's lines are not translations of the original Japanese. This means that FFXIII's English script often has it's own unique dialogue, which is both good and bad. In some scenes it adds "character." In others it creates very bad dialogue. When instead of translating the meaning behind the original line, you just replace it with whatever you feel the characters are saying, you are denying the writers artistic vision that you may or may not fully understand. Characters can become confused and the overall story of the game can suffer. It's best for translators to just translate what they're writing, instead of just replacing the story with what they feel should be said.

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Kashiwaba

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#2 Kashiwaba
Member since 2005 • 8059 Posts

Seriously FFXIII is a great game a solid 9 from me and got many great new ideas specially the combat I really enjoyed it.

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hakanakumono

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#3 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

Seriously FFXIII is a great game a solid 9 from me and got many great new ideas specially the combat I really enjoyed it.

Kashiwaba

There are a lot of smart elements and there are a lot of mishaps. FFXIII is a step forward in many regards, despite being imperfect. But you can't go forward unelss you're willing to make a few mistakes along the way. Progress isn't made without hiccups.

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heretrix

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#4 heretrix
Member since 2004 • 37881 Posts

I'm COMING SARAH! YOUR HERO IS COMING TO SAVE YOUUUUU!

Who ever wrote Snow's dialog needs to be gut punched. And what's up with that? Sarah looked like a pre-teen.

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Kashiwaba

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#5 Kashiwaba
Member since 2005 • 8059 Posts

I'm COMING SARAH! YOUR HERO IS COMING TO SAVE YOUUUUU!

Who ever wrote Snow's dialog needs to be gut punched. And what's up with that? Sarah looked like a pre-teen.

heretrix

Snow + Hope + Vanille I felt like choking them during the game :P.

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zarshack

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#6 zarshack
Member since 2009 • 9936 Posts

I'm COMING SARAH! YOUR HERO IS COMING TO SAVE YOUUUUU!

Who ever wrote Snow's dialog needs to be gut punched. And what's up with that? Sarah looked like a pre-teen.

heretrix

Serah* :o

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ShuichiChamp24

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#7 ShuichiChamp24
Member since 2009 • 5014 Posts

You're always at the front lines of a FFXIII thread.

Haven't played the game to judge anything about it but it seems like I should give it go. Anyway, most of what you said seems like Rune Factory Frontier. I don't know if it would be called a RPG though.

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pppjjj

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#8 pppjjj
Member since 2004 • 1094 Posts

I'm COMING SARAH! YOUR HERO IS COMING TO SAVE YOUUUUU!

Who ever wrote Snow's dialog needs to be gut punched. And what's up with that? Sarah looked like a pre-teen.

heretrix
I agree with this statement lol.
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xGUMBERCULESx

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#9 xGUMBERCULESx
Member since 2010 • 25 Posts

[QUOTE="heretrix"]

I'm COMING SARAH! YOUR HERO IS COMING TO SAVE YOUUUUU!

Who ever wrote Snow's dialog needs to be gut punched. And what's up with that? Sarah looked like a pre-teen.

Kashiwaba

Snow + Hope + Vanille I felt like choking them during the game :P.

I liked Snow. For the first half of the game, I thought Lightning was a complete *****, and Hope is just a wuss. Vanille needs to be hit though, definitely.
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Abicus7

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#10 Abicus7
Member since 2007 • 2009 Posts

[QUOTE="heretrix"]

I'm COMING SARAH! YOUR HERO IS COMING TO SAVE YOUUUUU!

Who ever wrote Snow's dialog needs to be gut punched. And what's up with that? Sarah looked like a pre-teen.

Kashiwaba

Snow + Hope + Vanille I felt like choking them during the game :P.

Yah, not the best cast of characters in XIII, I liked lightning and Fang though.

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PSdual_wielder

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#11 PSdual_wielder
Member since 2003 • 10646 Posts

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="heretrix"]

I'm COMING SARAH! YOUR HERO IS COMING TO SAVE YOUUUUU!

Who ever wrote Snow's dialog needs to be gut punched. And what's up with that? Sarah looked like a pre-teen.

xGUMBERCULESx

Snow + Hope + Vanille I felt like choking them during the game :P.

I liked Snow. For the first half of the game, I thought Lightning was a complete *****, and Hope is just a wuss. Vanille needs to be hit though, definitely.

I didn't have a problem with Hope, anyone in his 'situation' would act the way he did in the first half of the game. Snow on the other hand...needs to lighten up.

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Nokitch

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#12 Nokitch
Member since 2010 • 178 Posts

[QUOTE="heretrix"]

I'm COMING SARAH! YOUR HERO IS COMING TO SAVE YOUUUUU!

Who ever wrote Snow's dialog needs to be gut punched. And what's up with that? Sarah looked like a pre-teen.

Kashiwaba

Snow + Hope + Vanille I felt like choking them during the game :P.

Oh God , I hated Hope . I hated his frickin' voice every time he complained and wanted to beat the crap out of Snow . And something about his dialogue is just wrong . Doesn't show his emotions . Same goes for Snow .

I know where the TC is going at . I personally like the game . To me I think that FF XIII is supposed to be a fast-paced game . But everyone just says FF XIII sucks because its different .

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Kashiwaba

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#13 Kashiwaba
Member since 2005 • 8059 Posts

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="heretrix"]

I'm COMING SARAH! YOUR HERO IS COMING TO SAVE YOUUUUU!

Who ever wrote Snow's dialog needs to be gut punched. And what's up with that? Sarah looked like a pre-teen.

Abicus7

Snow + Hope + Vanille I felt like choking them during the game :P.

Yah, not the best cast of characters in XIII, I liked lightning and Fang though.

Sazh was the best :P probably he is the only memorable character in FFXIII :P he is cloud of this game he wont be forgotten for many years to come xD.

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Sky-

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#14 Sky-
Member since 2010 • 4682 Posts

Could you please change the font of your OP? The black font on a black background is making it hard for me to read.

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GreySeal9

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#15 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

I love how nobody is really addressing the OP's points at all.

Anyway, excellent post TC. I personally wouldn't be as hard on the game as you are, but you make some important points. I think your points about the use of cutscenes (I agree that sometimes the story seemed not as developed as it could have been due to too much brevity, but on the other hand I loved the anti-MGS attitude that the director had) and the artificial "challenge" in older RPGS are especially good.

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ShuichiChamp24

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#16 ShuichiChamp24
Member since 2009 • 5014 Posts

I love how nobody is reallyaddressing the OP's pointsat all.

Anyway, excellent post TC. I personally wouldn't be as hard on the game as you are, but you make some important points. I think your points about the use of cutscenes (I agree that sometimes the story seemed not as developed as it could have been due to too much brevity, but on the other hand I loved the anti-MGS attitude that the director had) and the artificial "challenge" in older RPGS are especially good.

GreySeal9

I can't really say much since I don't own or have played the game. I can agree with what TC is saying, to many cutscenes for me really ruins the game. Then again, if you don't put enough it's like your missing something. To be honest, I was never a fan of how some games force you to buy potions.

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Yandere

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#17 Yandere
Member since 2009 • 9878 Posts

Sorry, but I like potions and armor, bro.

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GreySeal9

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#18 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

Sorry, but I like potions and armor, bro.

Yandere

He wasn't saying that you're not allowed to like potions and armor. He was making a bigger point.

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ShuichiChamp24

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#19 ShuichiChamp24
Member since 2009 • 5014 Posts

Sorry, but I like potions and armor, bro.

Yandere

Either I didn't get what they said, or you missed the point.

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WilliamRLBaker

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#20 WilliamRLBaker
Member since 2006 • 28915 Posts

from what I hear they couldn't learn much since its received such a bad universal score and such hate from fans and non-fans alike.

Heres one thing other developers are well to NOT learn from Square...and ff13....Hours upon hours of CGI that has no use, making your game 8 gigs and then havign 32 gigs of Cinematics is useless and wasteful and we know where all the development time went too was those cinematics not good gameplay.

But its been that way for a long time, Square is now a company that rererererereleases older games and remakes to fund their movie projects on their bigger newer titles...yes movie projects the majority of time spent on ff13 is watching time not playing time.

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Yandere

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#21 Yandere
Member since 2009 • 9878 Posts

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

Sorry, but I like potions and armor, bro.

GreySeal9

He wasn't saying that you're not allowed to like potions and armor. He was making a bigger point.

Yes, but FF13 has no potions as it heals you after every battle, and I believe it has no armor.. So I'm saying that I prefer them keeping armor and potions to the mix.

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Kashiwaba

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#22 Kashiwaba
Member since 2005 • 8059 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

Sorry, but I like potions and armor, bro.

Yandere

He wasn't saying that you're not allowed to like potions and armor. He was making a bigger point.

Yes, but FF13 has no potions as it heals you after every battle, and I believe it has no armor.. So I'm saying that I prefer them keeping armor and potions to the mix.

There is potions but you use in the middle of the fight only.

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ShuichiChamp24

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#23 ShuichiChamp24
Member since 2009 • 5014 Posts

Yes, but FF13 has no potions as it heals you after every battle, and I believe it has no armor.. So I'm saying that I prefer them keeping armor and potions to the mix.

Yandere

If i'm not mistaken, you get no potion because after every battle you recover health.

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GreySeal9

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#24 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

Sorry, but I like potions and armor, bro.

Yandere

He wasn't saying that you're not allowed to like potions and armor. He was making a bigger point.

Yes, but FF13 has no potions as it heals you after every battle, and I believe it has no armor.. So I'm saying that I prefer them keeping armor and potions to the mix.

It definitely has potions, but I believe you're right about armor.

Potions are definitely neccesary in the game even despite the fact that you heal up after every battle. In a situation in which switching to a healing paradigm would be detrimental, it's way better to use a potion.

I simply responded the way I did because it sounded sort of like you were personalizing his TC in a weird way. But I understand what you're saying now.

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finalfantasy94

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#25 finalfantasy94
Member since 2004 • 27442 Posts

Your points do sound solid. I will have to say im glad stuff like a bunch of random NPC are pretty much not in this game. I always found those just fat that needed to be cut

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GreySeal9

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#26 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

Yes, but FF13 has no potions as it heals you after every battle, and I believe it has no armor.. So I'm saying that I prefer them keeping armor and potions to the mix.

ShuichiChamp24

If i'm not mistaken, you get no potion because after every battle you recover health.

There are potions, but they are only used in combat.

Like I said, sometimes they are extremely neccesary to use due to the fact that sometimes it can be extremely disadvantageous to switch to a healing paradigm.

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ShuichiChamp24

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#27 ShuichiChamp24
Member since 2009 • 5014 Posts

[QUOTE="ShuichiChamp24"]

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

Yes, but FF13 has no potions as it heals you after every battle, and I believe it has no armor.. So I'm saying that I prefer them keeping armor and potions to the mix.

GreySeal9

If i'm not mistaken, you get no potion because after every battle you recover health.

There are potions, but they are only used in combat.

Like I said, sometimes they are extremely neccesary to use due to the fact that sometimes it can be extremely disadvantageous to switch to a healing paradigm.

Ah, I was close. Sounds more like a chore to switch to a healing paradigm, I should really play this game sometime.

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dreman999

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#28 dreman999
Member since 2004 • 11514 Posts

Utilitarian design is smart for story focused JRPGs. ..............You do know that rpgs have been doing this since ff7

Utilitarian does not mean bare-bones game design. ...............Rpgs have been doing this from ff7

Short cutscenes can pack a punch. .....I don't want to repeat myself again.

But crafting a story entirely composed of short cutscenes isn't advisable........ I agree with this.

Buying potions is not a challenge. .......I agree but some wrpgs and Rof alreadt do this.

Having game elements for the sake of having game elements is not good game design.I understand what your say but aslitly disagree. These element add depht to the game. What you mean is don'tput a shallow game system in the game.ToV has you learn ability's from your armor and weapons but ff4 armor is just armor. If you do the system right then theirs no problem. Just because it don't have to be their doesn't mean not to do them.

Hire translatorswho translate.........*claps slowly

hakanakumono

Most of what you stated well, has been done since ff7. So what are we learning from FF13?

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hakanakumono

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#29 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

I'm COMING SARAH! YOUR HERO IS COMING TO SAVE YOUUUUU!

Who ever wrote Snow's dialog needs to be gut punched. And what's up with that? Sarah looked like a pre-teen.

heretrix

Snowe is also something to learn from. As in "don't."

One of the Japanese TAs in my class is easily as small as Serah. The influx of media from the west and Japan's "height challenged" population give rise to the size disparity.

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hakanakumono

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#30 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

from what I hear they couldn't learn much since its received such a bad universal score and such hate from fans and non-fans alike.

Heres one thing other developers are well to NOT learn from Square...and ff13....Hours upon hours of CGI that has no use, making your game 8 gigs and then havign 32 gigs of Cinematics is useless and wasteful and we know where all the development time went too was those cinematics not good gameplay.

But its been that way for a long time, Square is now a company that rererererereleases older games and remakes to fund their movie projects on their bigger newer titles...yes movie projects the majority of time spent on ff13 is watching time not playing time.

WilliamRLBaker

AA is bad?

There are not hours of CG. There is less CG in FFXIII than there is in the PS1 games.

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hakanakumono

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#31 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

Sorry, but I like potions and armor, bro.

Yandere

He wasn't saying that you're not allowed to like potions and armor. He was making a bigger point.

Yes, but FF13 has no potions as it heals you after every battle, and I believe it has no armor.. So I'm saying that I prefer them keeping armor and potions to the mix.

I'm suggesting that the game shouldn't rely upon the purchasing of massive amounts of potions. I'm suggesting that armor shouldn't be a set piece of armor that you buy in every town. Armor is present in FFXIII, but in a different form that allows for more customization.

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hakanakumono

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#32 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Utilitarian design is smart for story focused JRPGs. ..............You do know that rpgs have been doing this since ff7

Utilitarian does not mean bare-bones game design. ...............Rpgs have been doing this from ff7

Short cutscenes can pack a punch. .....I don't want to repeat myself again.

But crafting a story entirely composed of short cutscenes isn't advisable........ I agree with this.

Buying potions is not a challenge. .......I agree but some wrpgs and Rof alreadt do this.

Having game elements for the sake of having game elements is not good game design.I understand what your say but aslitly disagree. These element add depht to the game. What you mean is don'tput a shallow game system in the game.ToV has you learn ability's from your armor and weapons but ff4 armor is just armor. If you do the system right then theirs no problem. Just because it don't have to be their doesn't mean not to do them.

Hire translatorswho translate.........*claps slowly

dreman999

Most of what you stated well, has been done since ff7. So what are we learning from FF13?

I disagree, I don't think JRPGs have done such a good job at utilitarian design for "filler" areas like FFXIII has.

JRPGs have been doing what since FFVII? Red indicates a negative. Are you saying that JRPGs have had barebones design like FFXIII forever? Well to some degree, I agree. But I don't think you do.

Other JRPGs have done some of these things to some degree, like Chrono Cross with the healing. But FFXIII is such a great example because it encompasses so many areas for developers to learn from and because it does things like the "utilitarian" design and "isolated battles" better than games previous. It also has great examples of what not to do. Because it's a progressive RPG, it has a great set of positives and negatives to learn from.

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juno84

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#33 juno84
Member since 2004 • 1019 Posts

A lot of my issues with the game revolve around how the story was executed. The ratio of story to fighting seemed a bit off to me. The combat was good, but there was only combat and more combat broken up by incredibly brief cutscenes. I thought more interactivity in flashbacks could have helped break up some of that fighting. They do this once in the game, but I'd have welcomed a bit more interactivity in other flashbacks and perhaps flesh out the characters a bit more. I didn't really feel like there were any plot twists or a hook to the story. I'm guessing some people would disagree with that, but I didn't feel like there were ever any big surprises in the game (in part, because characters perceptions of the world weren't really explored).

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dreman999

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#34 dreman999
Member since 2004 • 11514 Posts
[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="dreman999"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Utilitarian design is smart for story focused JRPGs. ..............You do know that rpgs have been doing this since ff7

Utilitarian does not mean bare-bones game design. ...............Rpgs have been doing this from ff7

Short cutscenes can pack a punch. .....I don't want to repeat myself again.

But crafting a story entirely composed of short cutscenes isn't advisable........ I agree with this.

Buying potions is not a challenge. .......I agree but some wrpgs and Rof alreadt do this.

Having game elements for the sake of having game elements is not good game design.I understand what your say but aslitly disagree. These element add depht to the game. What you mean is don'tput a shallow game system in the game.ToV has you learn ability's from your armor and weapons but ff4 armor is just armor. If you do the system right then theirs no problem. Just because it don't have to be their doesn't mean not to do them.

Hire translatorswho translate.........*claps slowly

Most of what you stated well, has been done since ff7. So what are we learning from FF13?

I disagree, I don't think JRPGs have done such a good job at utilitarian design for "filler" areas like FFXIII has.

JRPGs have been doing what since FFVII? Red indicates a negative. Are you saying that JRPGs have had barebones design like FFXIII forever? Well to some degree, I agree. But I don't think you do.

Other JRPGs have done some of these things to some degree, like Chrono Cross with the healing. But FFXIII is such a great example because it encompasses so many areas for developers to learn from and because it does things like the "utilitarian" design and "isolated battles" better than games previous. It also has great examples of what not to do. Because it's a progressive RPG, it has a great set of positives and negatives to learn from.

Yes, JRPGs have had barebones design like FFXIII forever.And yes since ff7 we've lots of little cut scene and big cut scene like ff13 even along the way to towns and story points. So really, I find nothing you can learn from FF13 outside what not to do.
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hakanakumono

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#35 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

I think you're missing my point. Just because some JRPGs have done it before in some incarnation, does not mean that FFXIII can't serve as an example. FFVII really didn't do it the same way that FFXIII does it. And most JRPGs just don't handle the plot that way. While you may be able to find examples separate from FFXIII, it doesn't mean that the examples in FFXIII are invalidated.

You say that only the negative is left, but there are also going to be games that have similar negatives to FFXIII, so why single out the positives when the negatives may be present in other games too?


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hakanakumono

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#36 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="ShuichiChamp24"]

If i'm not mistaken, you get no potion because after every battle you recover health.

ShuichiChamp24

There are potions, but they are only used in combat.

Like I said, sometimes they are extremely neccesary to use due to the fact that sometimes it can be extremely disadvantageous to switch to a healing paradigm.

Ah, I was close. Sounds more like a chore to switch to a healing paradigm, I should really play this game sometime.

It's as simple as pressing L1.

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emorainbo

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#37 emorainbo
Member since 2008 • 3067 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

Sorry, but I like potions and armor, bro.

Yandere

He wasn't saying that you're not allowed to like potions and armor. He was making a bigger point.

Yes, but FF13 has no potions as it heals you after every battle, and I believe it has no armor.. So I'm saying that I prefer them keeping armor and potions to the mix.

There are potions and armor in the game. I think the what the TC was saying in regards to potions is that the challenge should come from the battle itself, not whether you decided to buy enough potions. As for the armor, ill point out how in a lot of games once you get a stronger weapon the enemies get stronger, soooo what was the point of making the item stronger in the first place?

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juno84

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#38 juno84
Member since 2004 • 1019 Posts

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

He wasn't saying that you're not allowed to like potions and armor. He was making a bigger point.

emorainbo

Yes, but FF13 has no potions as it heals you after every battle, and I believe it has no armor.. So I'm saying that I prefer them keeping armor and potions to the mix.

There are potions and armor in the game. I think the what the TC was saying in regards to potions is that the challenge should come from the battle itself, not whether you decided to buy enough potions. As for the armor, ill point out how in a lot of games once you get a stronger weapon the enemies get stronger, soooo what was the point of making the item stronger in the first place?

Well, it gives a sense of progression (even if it is a false sense). They do this in MMOs all the time and apparently a lot of people like that. I thought having your party healed and ressed after battles was an excellent idea, as was getting rid of MP. Since you are starting fights with all your resources available, the fights can actually require you do use those resources. The average fight in FF13 is much more dangerous than the average fight in other FFs.

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dreman999

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#39 dreman999
Member since 2004 • 11514 Posts

I think you're missing my point. Just because some JRPGs have done it before in some incarnation, does not mean that FFXIII can't serve as an example. FFVII really didn't do it the same way that FFXIII does it. And most JRPGs just don't handle the plot that way. While you may be able to find examples separate from FFXIII, it doesn't mean that the examples in FFXIII are invalidated.

You say that only the negative is left, but there are also going to be games that have similar negatives to FFXIII, so why single out the positives when the negatives may be present in other games too?


hakanakumono

Jrpgs plot are linear like FF13. It the game design that different, that what most people have issues with the game.

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hakanakumono

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#40 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="emorainbo"]

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

Yes, but FF13 has no potions as it heals you after every battle, and I believe it has no armor.. So I'm saying that I prefer them keeping armor and potions to the mix.

juno84

There are potions and armor in the game. I think the what the TC was saying in regards to potions is that the challenge should come from the battle itself, not whether you decided to buy enough potions. As for the armor, ill point out how in a lot of games once you get a stronger weapon the enemies get stronger, soooo what was the point of making the item stronger in the first place?

Well, it gives a sense of progression (even if it is a false sense). They do this in MMOs all the time and apparently a lot of people like that. I thought having your party healed and ressed after battles was an excellent idea, as was getting rid of MP. Since you are starting fights with all your resources available, the fights can actually require you do use those resources. The average fight in FF13 is much more dangerous than the average fight in other FFs.

Exactly, this is the trend I want to see JRPGs take.

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hayato_

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#41 hayato_
Member since 2007 • 5165 Posts

I agree and disagree on some levels.

Alot of these factors are simply stated, but hard to enact based on project target audiences, goals, and overall presentation. Let alone the restrictions and limitations when developing any game, let alone a Final Fantasy.

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good_sk8er7

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#42 good_sk8er7
Member since 2009 • 4327 Posts

Personally, I hope no developers pick up anything from FFXIII. I really do not want to see more of it.

Its ok. But really not addictive and I don't like the fact that I have no freedom at all.

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Kashiwaba

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#43 Kashiwaba
Member since 2005 • 8059 Posts

Personally, I hope no developers pick up anything from FFXIII. I really do not want to see more of it.

Its ok. But really not addictive and I don't like the fact that I have no freedom at all.

good_sk8er7

I dont get the no freedom which people talk about in FF13 all JRPGs have been like this for ages if you dont like this then most of JRPGs are not for you go play WRPGs.

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ichiban30

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#44 ichiban30
Member since 2008 • 384 Posts

I agree that things can be learned from FFXIII. I am glad Square Enix has the nuts to try new things. You can't get better without taking risks and making mistakes.

I have thoroughly enjoyed FFXIII eventhough they did change the formula up a little.

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Greyfeld

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#45 Greyfeld
Member since 2008 • 3007 Posts
To touch on one of your points, TC, I disagree slightly with the idea that every fight should be a challenge in and of itself. See, the thing is, it looks good on paper. But when ever single non-boss fight becomes a challenging fight, you end up with a slog of combat that ends up becoming more of a chore than anything else. I think that while the whole "every battle is a challenge" idea has merit, I think there should be a healthy mix of that, and endurance encounters like the typical micro-management combat systems. You know, keep things varied and fresh.
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Derek240

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#46 Derek240
Member since 2004 • 842 Posts

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="heretrix"]

I'm COMING SARAH! YOUR HERO IS COMING TO SAVE YOUUUUU!

Who ever wrote Snow's dialog needs to be gut punched. And what's up with that? Sarah looked like a pre-teen.

Nokitch

Snow + Hope + Vanille I felt like choking them during the game :P.

Oh God , I hated Hope . I hated his frickin' voice every time he complained and wanted to beat the crap out of Snow . And something about his dialogue is just wrong . Doesn't show his emotions . Same goes for Snow .

I know where the TC is going at . I personally like the game . To me I think that FF XIII is supposed to be a fast-paced game . But everyone just says FF XIII sucks because its different .

Right. It couldn't be because it is actually one big grindfest with nothing to do along the way except battle? It couldn't be because they took out elements that people play JRPGs for? Look, there is no doubt that FFXIII has top-notch production values (audio, graphics, presentation). Some may even argue the new combat is a welcome addition. However, these things are simply not enough to make a GREAT game. FF13 is not a great game...it is simply a good one.

If anything, other JRPGs should look at FFXIII and go in an opposite direction of most new things it brought to the table.

One last thing. In terms of making a JRPG difficult, the way FF13 does it is not the way. If anything, copy Demon's Souls.

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Miroku32

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#47 Miroku32
Member since 2006 • 8666 Posts
Oh man, I want to play this game and see if it is true that you want to hit Hope and Vanille; first time I hear people want to hit Snow. From the trailers you can see that Hope is an idiot but Vanille I don't know yet.
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Kashiwaba

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#48 Kashiwaba
Member since 2005 • 8059 Posts

[QUOTE="Nokitch"]

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

Snow + Hope + Vanille I felt like choking them during the game :P.

Derek240

Oh God , I hated Hope . I hated his frickin' voice every time he complained and wanted to beat the crap out of Snow . And something about his dialogue is just wrong . Doesn't show his emotions . Same goes for Snow .

I know where the TC is going at . I personally like the game . To me I think that FF XIII is supposed to be a fast-paced game . But everyone just says FF XIII sucks because its different .

Right. It couldn't be because it is actually one big grindfest with nothing to do along the way except battle? It couldn't be because they took out elements that people play JRPGs for? Look, there is no doubt that FFXIII has top-notch production values (audio, graphics, presentation). Some may even argue the new combat is a welcome addition. However, these things are simply not enough to make a GREAT game. FF13 is not a great game...it is simply a good one.

Well its more like FFXIII is a great game but its not perfect it had some flaws.

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#49 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

Great points TC. I think a lot of people are missing his point... in that other JRPG's shouldn't learn from FFXIII because it is an outstanding game, but that it tried a lot of new things, and despite getting a lot of them kind of off track, they are going in the right direction; and that they need more focus and less "tossing" things in there for the sake of having them in there.

I just wish JRPG's would learn from WRPG's and other action-adventure type games, and throw in a little skill challenging abilities, instead of just relying on turn-based battling, make it real-time and give the player the ability to really "control" their character, in both movement and attack.

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Yandere

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#50 Yandere
Member since 2009 • 9878 Posts



I just wish JRPG's would learn from WRPG's and other action-adventure type games, and throw in a little skill challenging abilities, instead of just relying on turn-based battling, make it real-time and give the player the ability to really "control" their character, in both movement and attack.

foxhound_fox

No, that's the major problem of WRPG's these days, turn based combat is generally A LOT deeper and more complex. I can see how people like walking around and spamming the attack button for battles but I find it disgusting.