How JRPGs can learn from FFXIII

Great points TC. I think a lot of people are missing his point... in that other JRPG's shouldn't learn from FFXIII because it is an outstanding game, but that it tried a lot of new things, and despite getting a lot of them kind of off track, they are going in the right direction; and that they need more focus and less "tossing" things in there for the sake of having them in there.

I just wish JRPG's would learn from WRPG's and other action-adventure type games, and throw in a little skill challenging abilities, instead of just relying on turn-based battling, make it real-time and give the player the ability to really "control" their character, in both movement and attack.

foxhound_fox

Thats why I think most of new JRPGs are losing one of their best characteristics which is deep strategies most of JRPGs now which uses real time combat (Tales, Star Ocean 4, Eternal sonata...etc) combats were more of hack'n'slash games without any strategies just keep pushing the same buttons.

No, that's the major problem of WRPG's these days, turn based combat is generally A LOT deeper and more complex. I can see how people like walking around and spamming the attack button for battles but I find it disgusting.

Yandere

from what I hear they couldn't learn much since its received such a bad universal score and such hate from fans and non-fans alike.

Heres one thing other developers are well to NOT learn from Square...and ff13....Hours upon hours of CGI that has no use, making your game 8 gigs and then havign 32 gigs of Cinematics is useless and wasteful and we know where all the development time went too was those cinematics not good gameplay.

But its been that way for a long time, Square is now a company that rererererereleases older games and remakes to fund their movie projects on their bigger newer titles...yes movie projects the majority of time spent on ff13 is watching time not playing time.

WilliamRLBaker

Thats why I think most of new JRPGs are losing one of their best characteristics which is deep strategies most of JRPGs now which uses real time combat (Tales, Star Ocean 4, Eternal sonata...etc) combats were more of hack'n'slash games without any strategies.

Kashiwaba

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]Thats why I think most of new JRPGs are losing one of their best characteristics which is deep strategies most of JRPGs now which uses real time combat (Tales, Star Ocean 4, Eternal sonata...etc) combats were more of hack'n'slash games without any strategies.

foxhound_fox

Did I even mention any WRPG?

I said JRPGs I'm not into WRPGs I dont care about them I prefer JRPGs way of telling a story than WRPGs way of changing my player destiny, And I dont like the way which WRPGs combat is going (hybrid of shooters and RPGs) I prefer the old way like Baldur's gate.

[QUOTE="Yandere"]No, that's the major problem of WRPG's these days, turn based combat is generally A LOT deeper and more complex. I can see how people like walking around and spamming the attack button for battles but I find it disgusting.

foxhound_fox

Nah, I believe Neverland games are the epitome of turn-based combat played in real time.

And if you hold Bioware games as some sort of pinnacle in depth, that is a example of what's wrong with WRPG's today.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

I just wish JRPG's would learn from WRPG's and other action-adventure type games, and throw in a little skill challenging abilities, instead of just relying on turn-based battling, make it real-time and give the player the ability to really "control" their character, in both movement and attack.

Yandere

No, that's the major problem of WRPG's these days, turn based combat is generally A LOT deeper and more complex. I can see how people like walking around and spamming the attack button for battles but I find it disgusting.

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

I just wish JRPG's would learn from WRPG's and other action-adventure type games, and throw in a little skill challenging abilities, instead of just relying on turn-based battling, make it real-time and give the player the ability to really "control" their character, in both movement and attack.

texasgoldrush

No, that's the major problem of WRPG's these days, turn based combat is generally A LOT deeper and more complex. I can see how people like walking around and spamming the attack button for battles but I find it disgusting.

Sorry, but how can you not spam attacks in a shooter (Mass Effect)? You don't slowly break down strategy's, get items ready and slowly break down the enemy to win.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

No, that's the major problem of WRPG's these days, turn based combat is generally A LOT deeper and more complex. I can see how people like walking around and spamming the attack button for battles but I find it disgusting.

Yandere

Sorry, but how can you not spam attacks in a shooter (Mass Effect)? You don't slowly break down strategy's, get items ready and slowly break down the enemy to win.

If you play any class other than an solider like a shooter, you will die. Even the solider has to use tactics like ammo powers and party member abilities to break enemy defenses.

Sorry, but how can you not spam attacks in a shooter (Mass Effect)? You don't slowly break down strategy's, get items ready and slowly break down the enemy to win.Yandere

[QUOTE="good_sk8er7"]

Personally, I hope no developers pick up anything from FFXIII. I really do not want to see more of it.

Its ok. But really not addictive and I don't like the fact that I have no freedom at all.

Kashiwaba

I dont get the no freedom which people talk about in FF13 all JRPGs have been like this for ages if you dont like this then most of JRPGs are not for you go play WRPGs.

Ok really I've been playing RPGs for like ever. I have never felt so constricted in a game as I have playing FFXIII. Its ridiculous! I feel like I'm just walking in a straight line with no real destination. It really upsets me as a long time Final Fantasy fan, or a jrpg fan in general to see that people think this is what other games should emulate.

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] spam attack in games like the Witcher, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect 2 and you get a quick death.

texasgoldrush

Sorry, but how can you not spam attacks in a shooter (Mass Effect)? You don't slowly break down strategy's, get items ready and slowly break down the enemy to win.

If you play any class other than an solider like a shooter, you will die. Even the solider has to use tactics like ammo powers and party member abilities to break enemy defenses.

But do you know how barebones that is? If you play a mage like a warrior you will die in RPGs, that is obvious and there are status effects to give you the upper hand.

There's no sort of hidden depth in the combat system, it's the basics RPGs have been churning out for years.

[QUOTE="Yandere"]Sorry, but how can you not spam attacks in a shooter (Mass Effect)? You don't slowly break down strategy's, get items ready and slowly break down the enemy to win.foxhound_fox

There ARE sub-genres in the roleplaying genre, you know that right? My main examples are based off of the Tactical RPG sub-genre, but the same examples can be for any other sub-genre.

There ARE sub-genres in the roleplaying genre, you know that right? My main examples are based off of the Tactical RPG sub-genre, but the same examples can be for any other sub-genre.

Yandere

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="good_sk8er7"]

Personally, I hope no developers pick up anything from FFXIII. I really do not want to see more of it.

Its ok. But really not addictive and I don't like the fact that I have no freedom at all.

good_sk8er7

I dont get the no freedom which people talk about in FF13 all JRPGs have been like this for ages if you dont like this then most of JRPGs are not for you go play WRPGs.

Ok really I've been playing RPGs for like ever. I have never felt so constricted in a game as I have playing FFXIII. Its ridiculous! I feel like I'm just walking in a straight line with no real destination. It really upsets me as a long time Final Fantasy fan, or a jrpg fan in general to see that people think this is what other games should emulate.

Again whats the difference between FFX and FFXIII?

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

Seriously FFXIII is a great game a solid 9 from me and got many great new ideas specially the combat I really enjoyed it.

hakanakumono

There are a lot of smart elements and there are a lot of mishaps. FFXIII is a step forward in many regards, despite being imperfect. But you can't go forward unelss you're willing to make a few mistakes along the way. Progress isn't made without hiccups.

These statements reek of truth and logic.

[QUOTE="Yandere"]There ARE sub-genres in the roleplaying genre, you know that right? My main examples are based off of the Tactical RPG sub-genre, but the same examples can be for any other sub-genre.

foxhound_fox

Tactical RPGs are a mixture of Turn Based TACTICS and RPGs, just like how music genres fuse together, something doesn't have to be just like the founder of the genre to still be under that genre.

As I said in a thread yesterday:

Things evolve and change, all genres do and that's how sub-genres are created, as long as there is some sort of similarity between two things it can be in that genre. For example, this sounds nothing like this, but they are both metal because they share similar traits. No sub-genre is "more RPG" than any other, anything that fits under a RPG sub-genre is a RPG case closed.

Poor choice of color...

I can see your points but the only one I mainly agree with is translations. I hate bad dubs. Hate. Many of the other things are the developers choice and what sometimes, makes me attracted to the game.

[QUOTE="good_sk8er7"]

Personally, I hope no developers pick up anything from FFXIII. I really do not want to see more of it.

Its ok. But really not addictive and I don't like the fact that I have no freedom at all.

Kashiwaba

I dont get the no freedom which people talk about in FF13 all JRPGs have been like this for ages if you dont like this then most of JRPGs are not for you go play WRPGs.

Not all...Chrono Trigger was actually a very open-ended JRPG.

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="good_sk8er7"]

Personally, I hope no developers pick up anything from FFXIII. I really do not want to see more of it.

Its ok. But really not addictive and I don't like the fact that I have no freedom at all.

Kandlegoat

I dont get the no freedom which people talk about in FF13 all JRPGs have been like this for ages if you dont like this then most of JRPGs are not for you go play WRPGs.

Not all...Chrono Trigger was actually a very open-ended JRPG.

I said most JRPGs I know there is some exceptions for JRPGs like Persona, chrono trigger and others.

Tactical RPGs are a mixture of Turn Based TACTICS and RPGs, just like how music genres fuse together, something doesn't have to be just like the founder of the genre to still be under that genre.

As I said in a thread yesterday:

Things evolve and change, all genres do and that's how sub-genres are created, as long as there is some sort of similarity between two things it can be in that genre. For example, this sounds nothing like this, but they are both metal because they share similar traits. No sub-genre is "more RPG" than any other, anything that fits under a RPG sub-genre is a RPG case closed.

Yandere

[QUOTE="Kandlegoat"]

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

I dont get the no freedom which people talk about in FF13 all JRPGs have been like this for ages if you dont like this then most of JRPGs are not for you go play WRPGs.

Kashiwaba

Not all...Chrono Trigger was actually a very open-ended JRPG.

I said most JRPGs I know there is some exceptions for JRPGs like Persona, chrono trigger and others.

overlooked the end part..only saw "all JRPgs have been like this for ages"

so in that case..disregard my last post.

[QUOTE="Derek240"]

[QUOTE="Nokitch"]

Oh God , I hated Hope . I hated his frickin' voice every time he complained and wanted to beat the crap out of Snow . And something about his dialogue is just wrong . Doesn't show his emotions . Same goes for Snow .

I know where the TC is going at . I personally like the game . To me I think that FF XIII is supposed to be a fast-paced game . But everyone just says FF XIII sucks because its different .

Right. It couldn't be because it is actually one big grindfest with nothing to do along the way except battle? It couldn't be because they took out elements that people play JRPGs for? Look, there is no doubt that FFXIII has top-notch production values (audio, graphics, presentation). Some may even argue the new combat is a welcome addition. However, these things are simply not enough to make a GREAT game. FF13 is not a great game...it is simply a good one.

Well its more like FFXIII is a great game but its not perfect it had some flaws.

[QUOTE="good_sk8er7"]

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

I dont get the no freedom which people talk about in FF13 all JRPGs have been like this for ages if you dont like this then most of JRPGs are not for you go play WRPGs.

Ok really I've been playing RPGs for like ever. I have never felt so constricted in a game as I have playing FFXIII. Its ridiculous! I feel like I'm just walking in a straight line with no real destination. It really upsets me as a long time Final Fantasy fan, or a jrpg fan in general to see that people think this is what other games should emulate.

Again whats the difference between FFX and FFXIII?

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="Derek240"]

Right. It couldn't be because it is actually one big grindfest with nothing to do along the way except battle? It couldn't be because they took out elements that people play JRPGs for? Look, there is no doubt that FFXIII has top-notch production values (audio, graphics, presentation). Some may even argue the new combat is a welcome addition. However, these things are simply not enough to make a GREAT game. FF13 is not a great game...it is simply a good one.

dreman999

Well its more like FFXIII is a great game but its not perfect it had some flaws.

True but still its a great game to put in other way its great but not amazing well thats according to Gamespot too AA = great games.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

Great points TC. I think a lot of people are missing his point... in that other JRPG's shouldn't learn from FFXIII because it is an outstanding game, but that it tried a lot of new things, and despite getting a lot of them kind of off track, they are going in the right direction; and that they need more focus and less "tossing" things in there for the sake of having them in there.

I just wish JRPG's would learn from WRPG's and other action-adventure type games, and throw in a little skill challenging abilities, instead of just relying on turn-based battling, make it real-time and give the player the ability to really "control" their character, in both movement and attack.

Thats why I think most of new JRPGs are losing one of their best characteristics which is deep strategies most of JRPGs now which uses real time combat (Tales, Star Ocean 4, Eternal sonata...etc) combats were more of hack'n'slash games without any strategies just keep pushing the same buttons.

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="good_sk8er7"]

Ok really I've been playing RPGs for like ever. I have never felt so constricted in a game as I have playing FFXIII. Its ridiculous! I feel like I'm just walking in a straight line with no real destination. It really upsets me as a long time Final Fantasy fan, or a jrpg fan in general to see that people think this is what other games should emulate.

dreman999

Again whats the difference between FFX and FFXIII?

You mean blitz ball I guess thats the only thing which you were able to do in FFX beside fighting and walking in a straight a very minor thing but yet you make it as a huge difference.

[QUOTE="dreman999"][QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

Again whats the difference between FFX and FFXIII?

You mean blitz ball I guess thats the only thing which you were able to do in FFX beside fighting and walking in a straight a very minor thing but yet you make it as a huge difference.

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

Great points TC. I think a lot of people are missing his point... in that other JRPG's shouldn't learn from FFXIII because it is an outstanding game, but that it tried a lot of new things, and despite getting a lot of them kind of off track, they are going in the right direction; and that they need more focus and less "tossing" things in there for the sake of having them in there.

I just wish JRPG's would learn from WRPG's and other action-adventure type games, and throw in a little skill challenging abilities, instead of just relying on turn-based battling, make it real-time and give the player the ability to really "control" their character, in both movement and attack.

dreman999

Thats why I think most of new JRPGs are losing one of their best characteristics which is deep strategies most of JRPGs now which uses real time combat (Tales, Star Ocean 4, Eternal sonata...etc) combats were more of hack'n'slash games without any strategies just keep pushing the same buttons.

Already beat both of NGS and Bayonetta and I wasnt doing anything except jumping and hitting triangle and square (thats for bayonetta)

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

Great points TC. I think a lot of people are missing his point... in that other JRPG's shouldn't learn from FFXIII because it is an outstanding game, but that it tried a lot of new things, and despite getting a lot of them kind of off track, they are going in the right direction; and that they need more focus and less "tossing" things in there for the sake of having them in there.

I just wish JRPG's would learn from WRPG's and other action-adventure type games, and throw in a little skill challenging abilities, instead of just relying on turn-based battling, make it real-time and give the player the ability to really "control" their character, in both movement and attack.

dreman999

Thats why I think most of new JRPGs are losing one of their best characteristics which is deep strategies most of JRPGs now which uses real time combat (Tales, Star Ocean 4, Eternal sonata...etc) combats were more of hack'n'slash games without any strategies just keep pushing the same buttons.

Yeah

This is nothing compared to Ninja Gadien and Bayonneta.

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="dreman999"]FFX let you do something else other than walk in a line and fight monster.dreman999

You mean blitz ball I guess thats the only thing which you were able to do in FFX beside fighting and walking in a straight a very minor thing but yet you make it as a huge difference.

Towns if you played FFXIII you will know that towns doesnt suit the whole story, Side quests (there is monsters hunting in FFXIII), I dont remember any weapons creation in FFX (well its been over 8 years I dont remember that) and still you can use items to upgrade your weapons in FFXIII, and Language to learn you count that as an extra ==;.

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="dreman999"]FFX let you do something else other than walk in a line and fight monster.dreman999

You mean blitz ball I guess thats the only thing which you were able to do in FFX beside fighting and walking in a straight a very minor thing but yet you make it as a huge difference.

like many people have stated..the lack of towns made sense with the story of FF13.

Besides...people act like towns in most Final Fantasies were full of endless hours of open ended lon-linear gameplay!...where most of town visiting was going into houses to steal pheonix downs from chests which btw only resulted in the owner stating "that she wished her dead beat husband would fix the roof instead of spending all day by the river fishing " :lol:

I haven't played FFXIII yet, but I can say that JRPGs should take some notes from Resonance of Fate.xsubtownerx

Like what?

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

No, that's the major problem of WRPG's these days, turn based combat is generally A LOT deeper and more complex. I can see how people like walking around and spamming the attack button for battles but I find it disgusting.

Sorry, but how can you not spam attacks in a shooter (Mass Effect)? You don't slowly break down strategy's, get items ready and slowly break down the enemy to win.

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] spam attack in games like the Witcher, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect 2 and you get a quick death.

texasgoldrush

Sorry, but how can you not spam attacks in a shooter (Mass Effect)? You don't slowly break down strategy's, get items ready and slowly break down the enemy to win.

And quite honestly you wouldn't need to.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="Yandere"]

Sorry, but how can you not spam attacks in a shooter (Mass Effect)? You don't slowly break down strategy's, get items ready and slowly break down the enemy to win.

And quite honestly you wouldn't need to.

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] In a real time combat situation, such as a firefight, you do not have time to "slowly" break down strategies.texasgoldrush

And quite honestly you wouldn't need to.

As for almost any game, but it's so limited you don't have to put much or any effort into doing so.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="Yandere"]

And quite honestly you wouldn't need to.

As for almost any game, but it's so limited you don't have to put much or any effort into doing so.

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] but you do have to strategize...its how quickly you can make the right decision...making decisions under pressure.texasgoldrush

As for almost any game, but it's so limited you don't have to put much or any effort into doing so.

While you should play Nethack, one of the or the best RPG ever made.

Strategy, depth, "roleplaying" it has it all man, it has it all.

How JRPGs can learn from Mario and Luigi or Paper Mario and thats make a turnbased battle system thats actually fun and enjoyable to play

But crafting a story entirely composed of short cutscenes isn't advisable. FFXIII seems to be designed with the notion that no cutscene int he game can exceed 3 minutes and there can only be less than 20% of the game time composed of cutscenes. The problem is that the story in FFXIII just needed more. There are going times when scenes just need to be longer, and a game just needs to take it's time or it'll end up rushed and it won't allow the story to properly develop, scenes to flow properly, and overall reduce the strength of the plot in the game. JRPGS shouldn't be afraid to slowly build up scenes.

hakanakumono

If the story needed more, have you ever thought of different ways to add the story other then cutscenes? I think games should be bare minimum on cutscenes, 20% would still be too much. For example MGS4 is a good experience but a terrible game. If anything games should rely on other ways to tell a story, watching takes away from playing, and games are meant for playing.

[QUOTE="dreman999"][QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

Thats why I think most of new JRPGs are losing one of their best characteristics which is deep strategies most of JRPGs now which uses real time combat (Tales, Star Ocean 4, Eternal sonata...etc) combats were more of hack'n'slash games without any strategies just keep pushing the same buttons.

Kashiwaba

Already beat both of NGS and Bayonetta and I wasnt doing anything except jumping and hitting triangle and square (thats for bayonetta)

[QUOTE="dreman999"][QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

You mean blitz ball I guess thats the only thing which you were able to do in FFX beside fighting and walking in a straight a very minor thing but yet you make it as a huge difference.

Towns if you played FFXIII you will know that towns doesnt suit the whole story, Side quests (there is monsters hunting in FFXIII), I dont remember any weapons creation in FFX (well its been over 8 years I dont remember that) and still you can use items to upgrade your weapons in FFXIII, and Language to learn you count that as an extra ==;.

[QUOTE="dreman999"][QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

Thats why I think most of new JRPGs are losing one of their best characteristics which is deep strategies most of JRPGs now which uses real time combat (Tales, Star Ocean 4, Eternal sonata...etc) combats were more of hack'n'slash games without any strategies just keep pushing the same buttons.

Yeah

This is nothing compared to Ninja Gadien and Bayonneta.

[QUOTE="good_sk8er7"]

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

I dont get the no freedom which people talk about in FF13 all JRPGs have been like this for ages if you dont like this then most of JRPGs are not for you go play WRPGs.

Kashiwaba

Ok really I've been playing RPGs for like ever. I have never felt so constricted in a game as I have playing FFXIII. Its ridiculous! I feel like I'm just walking in a straight line with no real destination. It really upsets me as a long time Final Fantasy fan, or a jrpg fan in general to see that people think this is what other games should emulate.

Again whats the difference between FFX and FFXIII?

X was linear, but I never felt constricted by it. I never fealt like there was nothing to do in the game but go forward and do nonstop grinding. And there was a clear destination in X. In XIII so far no one really knows what they're doing. I'm only on Chapter 6, but its like I'm forcing myself to move forward hoping it will get better..

To touch on one of your points, TC, I disagree slightly with the idea that every fight should be a challenge in and of itself. See, the thing is, it looks good on paper. But when ever single non-boss fight becomes a challenging fight, you end up with a slog of combat that ends up becoming more of a chore than anything else. I think that while the whole "every battle is a challenge" idea has merit, I think there should be a healthy mix of that, and endurance encounters like the typical micro-management combat systems. You know, keep things varied and fresh.Greyfeld

Not every fight in FFXIII is a challenge. If I said that every single fight has to be challenging, then maybe I misspoke. FFXIII has easy enemies and challenging enemies intermixed. But the majority of enemies in FFXIII are more challenging. Also in FFXIII, many times you are given the opportunity to avoid enemies.

Personally, I found the system to be so enjoyable that I took down every enemy in sight. But you could just as well redistrobute your playthrough so that you miss enemies, but as a resutl have a harder time on a boss perhaps.

The thing about FFXIII, is that even the challenging battles are rarely over 3 minutes. If FFXIII were to be at the pace of say, FFVII, I can see how it might encounter some problems.

There is no reason why towns should even exist as towns. There's no reason why a game has to divy up it's gameplay into distinct "dungeons" or "towns." In some ways, FFXIII does just this. PalumPorum has been descriebd as a "town" and a "dungeon," but really gameplaywise it's more of a middle ground, defying definition in order to meet the needs of the game at that certain point and time.

More games need to take this approach to areas. Undefined game structure is a positive direction imo, although FFXIII didn't handle it perfectly because it was imbalanced.