IGN's Top 100 RPGs currently PC is leading the count I think (IGN PC bias).

The gameplay of Ultima 7 has held up remarkably well, however the musical score, not so much.

That's the other thing that solidifies Chrono Trigger as such a classic for so many people.

When my Grandpa passed away, I was like "oh that sucks, when's the funeral?"

When I hear "To far away times" from the Chrono Trigger soundtrack, it's like suddenly someone is cutting onions.

Hearing that song after 14 years of musical innovation as well, doesn't really have the same impact. One can say that it wouldn't make a difference, but that's the funny thing about the brain. Especially adolescent brains, which is what a lot of us were when we played it the first time.

It's kind of like how people who don't have kids swear up and down they won't change after they have kids. Until they have kids, and then they change.

Oh its SHOCKING how far ahead of its time the entire Ultima series was. Almost every single one of them, good or not, was at the very least revolutionary. Even Ultima Online, i have yet to play another MMO that allows for you to do so much, that allows for you to live in a world instead of simply accomplishing a series of events.

I don't think this would happen to anyone who has played through 6 or 7. In fact even if you were to play them today you'd probably end up saying "wtf... why cant i do that in today's games?" a few dozen times. So even if you didnt have the memories of how insanely revolutionary they were, youd be having a regular series of revelations as you played through them.

As for the whole Chrono Trigger thing. It was a very good game but IMO is one of the most overrated RPGs of all time and i think this only started to happen when we saw the.... ummm... i have to be careful here...... the hipster/"geek culture" thing happen. This thing where people just repeat what they've heard while also trying to go as popular yet underground as possible. Which given IMO and many others, FF6 and 7 were far better games, the alternative option would be CT.

But as far as quality, competence of game, story, the shaping of RPGs, etc. CT does not hold a candle to at least two dozen games on this list.

And that is more or less why I gave up on mmos. Because you didnt feel like you were a part of a world anymore, just a spectator. Because nowadays you dont evn accomplish a series of events, now you follow some guy accomplishing the series of events.

@Maroxad: hmmm, maybe it's because we have nothing to do up here other than drink, fight, play hockey and video games, but Chrono Trigger was exceptionally well rated right from the get go. Far before the dreaded hipster douchebags arrived on the scene.

Anyhow, we're obviously never going to change each other's mind. I can only bid you adieu, and express my gratitude for the lively, on point debate that did not degenerate into insults/pissing contest.

The key thing I've noticed that seems to separate old-school and modern RPGs is how they're designed and how the mechanics are implemented.

That is, modern RPGs are designed to be enjoyed by everyone, they're not really targeted towards a specific audience anymore. Plus, because the mechanics are simplified as well, that makes it easier for anyone to play.

But is that really a bad thing?

That's just my take on the whole thing, I didn't grow up as an avid RPG fan, so maybe I'm missing something here.

Hipsters? Honestly, I dont find there to be anything hipster about liking Chrono Trigger.

But yes, we arent going to change eachothers minds. My first RPG was Baldur's Gate 1, and that pretty much defined my expectations of the RPG genre. Expectations I still hold heavily to this day. I only went back to older RPGs after BioWare and Bethesda kept disappointing me, game after game.

I wasnt raised on the RPGs back then, but at the same time. The Computer RPGs made in the same time era did appeal to me, least of all because they had some resembelence of substance, they managed to give that illusion. Chrono Trigger on the ohter hand it was all flash, no substance.

oh wow what a terrible list

CT's ATB is not normal ATB though, since it's vastly different from FF's ATB. In CT, its ATB incorporates elements from other genres, like ARPGs (the fast-paced flow, along with Secret of Mana elements), fighting games (the team combo system), and stealth games (the sneaky enemy encounters).

In the UK, most fans also discovered it the illegal way, due to imports being too expensive back then. The DS version came out in Europe in 2009 though. By that time, CT was already being hailed as one of the greatest games of all time. That's bound to set up unrealistic expectations.

Interesting. Most people I know who've played it found its moment-to-moment gameplay to be fun. Even people who hate turn-based combat. But hey, people have different tastes. If it's not for you, then it's not for you.

It doesnt fix the clunkiness, low skill ceiling, emphasis on numbers (in most action games, numbers are an abstraction, in CT the whole game is built around them), no positioning, and perhaps the biggest sin with its combat, menus should NEVER be navigated in real time. At least not without shortcuts and keybinds.

I suppose by team combo system you mean how multiple characters can team up for a single attack. A system which makes the combat slighly more interesting than the Final Fantasy games. But it still carries far too many flaws to be enjoyable compared to proper action adventure games.

This list blows... Many great games were left off the list, and games that are even questionable if they are true RPG's are on the list? Turn based, Real time, Active Time, Western, Japanese, Pseudo, Anime, Action Adventure, and Hack n Slash all rolled into one? lol.... puke. Half the games in the top 50 don't even belong in the top 100.

The only two good things on the entire list was to see the games Breath of Fire III and The Legend of Dragoon, and that Morrowind was rated better than Skyrim...

Opinion? Opinion you say? Well I say.... click bait. This isn't a "top list".. this is an attempt to appease the internet to try to drive our traffic list. You know.. from the great big pool of half wits and non good taste having people that troll the depths of the internet? lol

Next

The combat is polished and finely-tuned, so not sure what you mean by clunkiness. ll give you the low skill ceiling and numbers emphasis. It has some positioning in combat, but it's simplified compared to what you'd find in CRPGs or SRPGs. And outside of combat, the positioning certainly matters when stealthily approaching enemies and avoiding detection. And navigating menus in real-time adds a sense of urgency to the combat. Also, the simple menus makes it more accessible than having to assign and memorize a bunch of shortcuts and keybinds.

These types of lists are always stupid

By clunky I mean, having to drag the cursor down to the spell you want to cast every time. Especially as navigating menus while enemies are hitting you. Doesnt exactly make the game fluid, you are navigating a UI, while enemies are hitting you. It is about as fun as, playing Baldur's Gate without pausing.

Memorizing A = Attack, B = Tech, X = Item, Y = Last action shouldn't be difficult.

Positioning meant very little since you couldnt really manipulate it iirc. Or if you could, you had minimal impact on it. Positioning exists outside of combat for stealth, sure, but when the actual fight starts... positioning is more or less set in stone.

Just out of morbid curiosity, how would you suggest they design the tech/spell selection process back then?

Didn't read the list, but yea Morrowind was light years better than Skyrim.

B = Back

A/X/Y = Abilities

R+A/B/X/Y = Abilities

L = Rotate Between Single/Double/Triple

Granted each character had 8 abilities. But at no point during the game were all 8 abilities viable, most would often go obsolete as you would learn stronger techs.

With the UI showing what tech is bound to what button.

Honestly, that sounds way more clunky than simply tapping a few times on the digital pad, but meh, to each his own.

Also, low level abilities, especially lightning were still very useful, as one of the cavemen put it "Thunder stun all dinosaurs, you know?"

Considering how that kind of control scheme allows you to access execute any action with only 2 button presses. I disagree

Lets say we want to use Tech #5

1. Down
2. A
3. Down
4. Down
5. Down
6. Down
7. A

vs

1. B
2. R+A

Awesome, one low level move. But even then, Lightning 2 exists. Which is an AoE, but still.

Hell, the system I proposed is actually used in several games, including pretty much every PC RPG, and even some console RPGs. Persona 5 does it partially. Pokemon Stadium did it. Dragon's Dogma did it.

While I've never had any issues with the real-time menu navigation, that's only a possible issue in Active mode. In Wait mode, the action pauses when navigating menus, essentially making it pausable real-time. If Active mode's real-time menu navigation is an issue, then you can always switch to Wait mode's pausable real-time menu navigation.

While the positioning is set in stone once the combat starts, you do have some control over the combat positioning, depending on how you approach the enemies outside of combat, which has the effect of keeping you on your toes. For example, whether you attack right away, or wait and hope the enemies get into a more favourable position, or go around and attack from a different position, or stealthily try to sneak past them undetected, or pay attention to the surroundings to avoid ambushes, etc. Depending on how you approach the enemies or how the enemies approach you, the combat positioning changes. And then the combat positioning in turn affects the area and range of different attacks, or the ability to use certain team combos, or the enemy abilities, etc. Depending on the environment and encounters, players need to adapt to the situation accordingly.

While it does pause in Wait mode, using wait mode completely trivializes the game. And it kills any urgency the system might have had going for it.

Its a choice between complete trivialization and stress. :( BG2 and the Real Time with Pause RPGs were entirely balanced around pausing. I am not sure CT and the likes were.

I find turn based to have a sense of urgency as well. When someone is bleeding out, a barbarian/thief is running to ransack a town, the enemy is preparing a nuke, a friendly NPC is being beaten the crap out of by enemies. Every single turn counts. Enemy reinforcements will arrive in X turns.

But don't get me wrong, I dislike CT's combat but of the various ATB jRPGs, it is probably the best one, well of the square games anyways. The best ATB implementation comes from Labyrinth of Touhou.