I'm Done: Panda's Unbiased Look into Nintendo's "Next-Gen" Plans

The whole video games are toys thing isn't just Nintendo's fault its just a fact. Video GAMES are toys. The consoles themselves might not be toys because they can do more then one thing but in the end a game is something you play not something you watch. Video Games are catagorized as toys whether its incorrect or just a bad general conception.Blackbond

Ah yes, the age old assumption on the nature of gaming that arrives out of the current dogma and restrictions placed on the industry by companies like Nintendo.  I can see what you're saying, but as I say in my post, there is nothing ORIGIONALLY different, in perspective to potentiality, about gaming than any other entertainment medium.  Participating in something does not quality it as a toy.  Video games are a form of entertainment media -- they articulate ideas.  The fact we can conceptually think of video games as a to is proof of how we've distorted and misunderstood the function of video games.   

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"][QUOTE="LinkChicky"]I really, truly hope you're done after this because your constant whining and moaning about Nintendo is way past old. It's pretty much all you do.  Stating your displeasure every once in a while is all well and good, but doing so almost daily is entirely unproductive and tiresome. If you're really that disgusted with the way the company is going, try to start a letter writing campaign of some kind.  Then you can at least say you did something. In other words, put up or shut up. Kthanxbye.LinkChicky

Ha! I highly doubt he has the testicular fortitude to so much as entertain the idea.

...or the desire to sit in a federal prison for 10 years with my cell-mate, "Leeroy 'Big-Hands' Johnson."

While on some levels, I agree with you, I disagree with your negative look at Nintendo's latest efforts.

The main reason why has to do with your emphasis on graphics as somehow essential to creating a higher-level pleasure experience. From what I can tell, in most cases, this isn't so. Sometimes, graphics can create a more realistic and dynamic world in a way that enhances the gamer's connection to the environment to make a better experience. I believe that ICO, or even GTA3, prove this is true. Yet just as often, shinier graphics do little more than make things look prettier. The realistic gore in Gears of War is nice, but I doubt it makes the game any more cerebral. 

However, games that have transcended current industry norms of what is expected of videogames haven't always needed exceptional technology to do so. I know you sometimes cite the Civilization series as an example of games that don't work solely on a primal level of enjoyment. Civilization 2 was made nearly 11 years ago. Games such as Deus Ex and even some of the Ultima games have given the player responsibility for character choice and moral actions. They didn't need cutting edge graphics to do so.

What's more important towards transforming standards in the industry is the software side of things, not hardware. Better graphics do nothing on their own to fundamentally change the way people make games. The only way videogames can fundamentally change is through innovative software, and the only way innovative software can be funded by a risk-averse videogame industry is if it's cheap to make. By limiting technology in the Wii while simultaneously expanding input options, and by extension, expanding potential innovation, Nintendo is (perhaps inadvertently) opening the door to those who want to push the envelope on what game could be, by giving them a cheap console platform to make games on. 

So you are irritated because new gamers are having a lot of fun with the Wii?

What's the point in playing videogames if it's not to have fun?

To display how much polygons your favourite character have?

Actually, that's why most people still think games are a waste of money, they can't see the fun behind a screenshot.

And, if you don't like the Wii, just don't buy it. Geez...:|

This is possibly the most ignorant post I have ever read on SW and thats saying a lot

Lets get one things straight:

It is 'edgy' 'hardcore' games that target kids and teenagers

Only kids care about being 'grown up' or 'mature' all the time

Actual grown adults don't give two ***s and thats the truth

 

By constantly targeting 14-17 year olds we end up with this: big guns, big cars, big guns, big cars - NO INNOVATIONsps9

Actual grown adults actually just move beyond gaming and judge it by the assumptions and sterotypes I discussed above.  The things you cited are a vital aspect of higher-drama; we could say the same for movies, but only in video games can we make such a strange abstraction of ideas.

[QUOTE="Blackbond"][QUOTE="shungokustasu"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

You missing the grand scheme of things Panda. To bring in more consumers to the gaming industry. Nintendo is doing a great job in doing so. Yes, the system may not be for everyday gamers, but it's a stepping stone for new gamers to understand why the gaming industry is so great. Let's hope the new gamers will transfer over to games like MGS, FF, God of War, and Street Fighter 3 and boost this industry over the top of movies and music. After all, gaming is those two in one. shungokustasu

And, as I've said, they are bringing consumers into the gaming industry at the expense of gaming as an entertainment medium and a reasonable level of consumer standards and demands. New fans do not see gaming at its best -- instead, they are introduced to gaming when it is reduced to its most simple and brutual form. See my post on my blog that also explores the very real possibility that high quality games will become increasingly scarce as the casual market grows.

As oppose to new fans never seeing gaming at all? It's like cars, show them the low-end model first then after a couple of years they're be ready for the high-end product. As you can see, the gaming industry as of today is very stale right now. There is an old saying "Sometimes you have to take a step back, to move forward". This is what Nintendo is doing, going back to show what gaming was all about when it first started. Also, It's not like Nintendo is the only gaming market there is. The current gamers have 360 and PS3 at their disposal, so the possibility of high quality games becoming scarce is not likely. Again, they are not harming the industry, but only welcoming the new gamers to the world. Then, the new gamers will graduate into a realm of high quality titles that we gamers today know and love.

NOOOOOO enough with the Car analogies already :cry:

lmao. okay, okay. I'm find another product that parallels with the console war.

Helpful advice, don't choose food lol 

So you are irritaded because new gamers are having a lot of fun with the Wii?

What's the point in playing videogames if it's not to have fun?

To display how much polygons your favourite character have?

Actually, that's why most people still think games are a waste of money, they can't see the fun behind a screenshot.

And, if you don't like the Wii, just don't buy it. Geez...:|

MagnuzGuerra

I would do what you advise, if my favorite fact of Nintendo, wasn't true.  Meaningful games will grow more scarce in porportion to the size of the casual market.  Meaningful games will decline in quality as their is smaller incentitive to design the games or raise the standards, see my blog post on the porportional decline of complexity in games.

[QUOTE="LinkChicky"]I really, truly hope you're done after this because your constant whining and moaning about Nintendo is way past old. It's pretty much all you do.  Stating your displeasure every once in a while is all well and good, but doing so almost daily is entirely unproductive and tiresome. If you're really that disgusted with the way the company is going, try to start a letter writing campaign of some kind.  Then you can at least say you did something. In other words, put up or shut up. Kthanxbye.FoamingPanda

And I find it horribly disturbing to watch people advocate and support the collective genocide of meaningful gaming on a daily basis, as much as you find my valid and unbiased critcism tiresome.

*ROFL* Oh, yes! Videogames are of such dire importance that they supersede issues like poverty, disease, and genocide. :roll: *coughs* Someone takes himself a tad too seriously.

wow, that sir in no way is a fact but your opinion, many fans will tell you (nintendo and non nintendo fans included) that Zelda by no means is dull, shallow, an unwarrented idea, or played out. In fact it gets consistantly praised as a great series. Superpapermario is nothing like the old games, completely different. And id see a problem with games around a franchise if it sucked like SOnic, but Smashbros, Metroid Prime, Mario(platformers) were AA- AAA games here, and AAA on gamerankings, Same with Fireemblem, Fzero, starfox,. The DK platformers, Kirby etc. Am i sick of the mario sports games yes. I want the platformers not that trash, i dont mind mario kart though. Your gonna tell me franchises get some slack for popular icons on critical reviews, cause sonic would love to tell you no, in fact spiderman would like to tell you no. but hey to each his own. FoamingPanda

I understand you friend, and I encourage you to check my blog post on pleasure for a true proof of why people over-value marketing icons and judge games by abstract and warped standards.  20 year old franchises are tired and played out.  They may have some value left, but they should not come to define the best work of an entire generation.

[QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="LinkChicky"]I really, truly hope you're done after this because your constant whining and moaning about Nintendo is way past old. It's pretty much all you do. Stating your displeasure every once in a while is all well and good, but doing so almost daily is entirely unproductive and tiresome. If you're really that disgusted with the way the company is going, try to start a letter writing campaign of some kind. Then you can at least say you did something. In other words, put up or shut up. Kthanxbye.LinkChicky

And I find it horribly disturbing to watch people advocate and support the collective genocide of meaningful gaming on a daily basis, as much as you find my valid and unbiased critcism tiresome.

*ROFL* Oh, yes! Videogames are of such dire importance that they supersede issues like poverty, disease, and genocide. :roll: *coughs* Someone takes himself a tad too seriously.

When did he say that?

:? 

Foamingpanda, I understand your concern for the industry as it is a hobby that we all love and cherish, but I think that your overblowing the impact of Nintendo's mass marketing campaign just a tad. Yes, there will be a flood of "casual" games and the emphasis on high-end graphics will be lessened, but since when has that stopped the industry? I mean, look at the PS2. If that wasn't a casual's machine, then I don't know what is. The system was technically the weakest of all the systems and the  ratio of good to crappy game was like 1 to 500, but did the industry crash and burn? Not that I know of.

Another thing, do we reallyneed bleeding edge tech in our games. I mean, yes the extra horsepower is always welcome, but right now the PS3 and 360 seem too bloated and inefficient (in size and architecture) when it comes to their specs. Most of that tech won't be fully recognised until the very end of their life span, like what happened with the G-cube. In addition, the customer suffers with higher prices and a larger ratio of buggy consoles due to the complicated tech stuffed in there.

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't be raising the alarms so early into the new generation. Step back and see where it goes. This isn't the first time someone has cried wolf over a nonexistant concern.

One thing I'll give you though is the need to stop the endless parade of mini-game games. Sadly, it seems we'll just have to weather that storm until the latter part of this year.

[QUOTE="Blackbond"]The whole video games are toys thing isn't just Nintendo's fault its just a fact. Video GAMES are toys. The consoles themselves might not be toys because they can do more then one thing but in the end a game is something you play not something you watch. Video Games are catagorized as toys whether its incorrect or just a bad general conception.FoamingPanda

Ah yes, the age old assumption on the nature of gaming that arrives out of the current dogma and restrictions placed on the industry by companies like Nintendo.  I can see what you're saying, but as I say in my post, there is nothing ORIGIONALLY different, in perspective to potentiality, about gaming than any other entertainment medium.  Participating in something does not quality it as a toy.  Video games are a form of entertainment media -- they articulate ideas.  The fact we can conceptually think of video games as a to is proof of how we've distorted and misunderstood the function of video games.   

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the notion that the Wiimote is as of now not being utilized correctly (very few Wii games feel like they were meant for the Wiimote), so I partially agree that at the moment Nintendo's Wii isn't doing all it could to push the next-gen. HOWEVER, it seems that the crux of your argument is that what you want out of next-gen system is better graphics and new IPs, and that's the part I take issue with. Obviously there needs to be some kind of upgrade from the last gen to make a "next-gen" system, but you seem to think that you get to decide what that is. The Wii is more powerful than the Gamecube by any measureable means, so just because it isn't as advanced as the current technology would allow doesn't mean it's a step backwards.

My real problem, however, lies with your apparent distaste towards current gaming series. First, you seem to lay all the blame on the companies creating the same games over and over again, when you should be blaming gamers, who don't buy new IPs nearly as much as old ones. The problem isn't that Nintendo doesn't want to try new games; simply look at all the titles they've put out for the DS: Brain Age, Nintendogs, Elite Beat Agents, etc. For every one of those that's sold extremely well, there's been 2 new IPs which made no money. How can you blame them for coming out with another Pokemon (for example), when that's what people want, and will buy? I don't know about you, but I can't wait for Super Mario Galaxy and Metroid Prime 3; they might not be the most innovative games ever, but if they simply refine the gameplay of two of my all-time favorite series, I can't really find fault with that.

[QUOTE="Shusty"]

lmao. okay, okay. I'm find another product that parallels with the console war.

Blackbond

Helpful advice, don't choose food lol

Man, my cereal anology was off the hook. I was getting PM about that one. However, I wasn't going to use it again. It's a classic though. Also, Panda where is my rebuttal? You can deny the lie, but you can't deny the truth.

[QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="LinkChicky"]I really, truly hope you're done after this because your constant whining and moaning about Nintendo is way past old. It's pretty much all you do.  Stating your displeasure every once in a while is all well and good, but doing so almost daily is entirely unproductive and tiresome. If you're really that disgusted with the way the company is going, try to start a letter writing campaign of some kind.  Then you can at least say you did something. In other words, put up or shut up. Kthanxbye.LinkChicky

And I find it horribly disturbing to watch people advocate and support the collective genocide of meaningful gaming on a daily basis, as much as you find my valid and unbiased critcism tiresome.

*ROFL* Oh, yes! Videogames are of such dire importance that they supersede issues like poverty, disease, and genocide. :roll: *coughs* Someone takes himself a tad too seriously.

Takes himself to seriously? THAT'S AN UNDERSTATEMENT AT BEST. This guy saying he's giving "valid and unbiased criticism " is just spewing out Wii hating dog crap. He can't prove anything he's said, and he thinks just because he's ZOMG "FoamingPanda" that he's giving expert opinions and that somehow mean more than other people's opinions.

This thread is ridiculous. But please continue, I'm getting a few chuckles out of the garbage that is being said.

[QUOTE="Blackbond"]

lmao. okay, okay. I'm find another product that parallels with the console war.

shungokustasu

Helpful advice, don't choose food lol

Man, my cereal anology was off the hook. I was getting PM about that one. However, I wasn't going to use it again. It's a classic though. Also, Panda where is my rebuttal? You can deny the lie, but you can't deny the truth.

Of course he is going to ignore the replies that stomp his "impecible logic".

[QUOTE="sps9"]

This is possibly the most ignorant post I have ever read on SW and thats saying a lot

Lets get one things straight:

It is 'edgy' 'hardcore' games that target kids and teenagers

Only kids care about being 'grown up' or 'mature' all the time

Actual grown adults don't give two ***s and thats the truth

 

By constantly targeting 14-17 year olds we end up with this: big guns, big cars, big guns, big cars - NO INNOVATIONFoamingPanda

Actual grown adults actually just move beyond gaming and judge it by the assumptions and sterotypes I discussed above. The things you cited are a vital aspect of higher-drama; we could say the same for movies, but only in video games can we make such a strange abstraction of ideas.

Grown adults move 'beyond' video games when you only consider 'video games' to be shooters and racers and other 'hardcore' games.

Because it is instantly transparent to anyone 25 or older who the target market is - teenagers.

However, no grown adult is opposed to fun. Wii Sports is fun. It's silly, it's simple, it's fun. So is Mario. So is Yoshi.

This is why the lines for Wii's have so many adults in them. This is the how Nintendo has been able to bring back all the adults who had previously 'moved beyond'.

Because they make games that are GAMES. Diversions. Entertainment. Not utterly predictable 9th grade money traps.

At the end of the day, they're still just games, a man-made form of entertainment and not to be taken all that seriously. Just because the Wii is having success doesn't mean that people will stop buying consoles like the Xbox 360 and games on powerful PCs, games which are truly "deep" and "complex" in your opinion. The Wii hasn't stopped these things from selling. So I don't see the Wii as doing any damage to the industry. It's just a fun new take on gaming which will help introduce more people to gaming. Plus even the processing power is not obsolete. To be obsolete it would have to be so out-dated that it's completely out of fashion. If enough people are satisfied with it then it's not obsolete.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] TP and superpapermario are not shallow, or anyway dull. Same will be said about smashbros, metroid, supermariogalaxy, and so on. FoamingPanda

The games you listed are shallow and dull. I've explained why in this post, and during my post on pleasure. These games are constructed around unwarranted ideas that over two decades old in their conception. Hell, Smashbros is nothing more than the mass aggration of marketing icons. Please see anything I've posted on "Franchises" to see why I'd say something like this. Nintendo shoves so many ancient franchises down our throats, simply because if their games LACKED those marketing icons -- they would be seen as the counter-productive force in the industry that they are.

 Tell me what is NOT a shallow game for you. Then i'll try to rebbute. Mention an example please.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] TP and superpapermario are not shallow, or anyway dull. Same will be said about smashbros, metroid, supermariogalaxy, and so on. FoamingPanda

The games you listed are shallow and dull. I've explained why in this post, and during my post on pleasure. These games are constructed around unwarranted ideas that over two decades old in their conception. Hell, Smashbros is nothing more than the mass aggration of marketing icons. Please see anything I've posted on "Franchises" to see why I'd say something like this. Nintendo shoves so many ancient franchises down our throats, simply because if their games LACKED those marketing icons -- they would be seen as the counter-productive force in the industry that they are.

Umm... I call BS. Super smash is in NOT a shallow game. If it was such a shallow game, why would it be in EVO and MLG? Have you heard of wave dashing? have you heard of short hopping? Have you heard of L canceling? Have you heard of wave shining?You have lost ALL credibility in my eyes by calling super smash a shallow game. Shallow games do not require hours  upon hours of practicing to master. Shallow games arent ballanced. Sure, super smash can be played and enjoyed by a bunch of kids who dont know what they're doing, but that doesnt make it shallow. Also, you have this intangible standard or "teh perfect game." You claim that wii sports is shallow fun? well, who the hell cares? fun is fun. You want an epic story, read a book. Your perfect game does not exist. You always avoid the question "What game do you like?" answer it. And do it now. You're being irrational. Games are about fun, not about complex stories, character developement, analogies, metaphors, allusions, and well written stories. and one more time name the nonexistant game with all the perfections you claim a game needs to have. You cant, it does not exist.

Fun is fun.

Video gaming has a hard time going mainstream because many adults have *lives*.  Regardless of how "mature" people are, the ability for people to enjoy a video game is highly dependant on the amount of time investment required.  The time required to learn, the time required to be engaged, the time to finish.

Jobs and friends eat a lot into people's time, which leaves very little time for alone time to just veg away playing a video game.  Once it comes down to it, most people with jobs can only engage in something that can be done in a few minutes to a couple of hours.  Better still if it's something that can be done with your friends.  Doing stuff with your friends has been the main sticking point for a lot of Nintendo games, and is the main reason why a lot of franchises for Nintendo has been successful.

The function of video games is to have fun.  Unfortunatly for your whole logic/rant, a lot of people have fun.  The function of the business, any business is to make money.  Nintendo is the only one who has been able to manage both with any level of success. 

So in the end.

Fun is fun.

Ironically, the Wii is the best shot in this generation of enhancing the perception of gaming beyond that of a child's toy.

Panda doesn't realize that because he's too attached to his subjective assessments of quality. 

[QUOTE="11Marcel"]

Can I object by mentioning the classic statement "graphics don't matter too much"? Best example is gears of war. It looks great and all, but I can easily imagine myself having 10x more fun with zelda TP. Also, I think also why the industry is seen as childish, is because most people don't see any depth in games. For example the games THEY see, are games like ehm... gears yes.

I think if you're going to have a better gameplay instead of creating better graphics (if you can only get graphics to a max you already know, you can invest the extra time to work on gameplay) then I think the wii isn't necessarily bad. Also, the wii probably gets more people into gaming.

FoamingPanda

And who says that graphics and gameplay must exist at each others expense? Unlike graphics, which have a fixed "max" depdending on hardware, gameplay can be tweaked and experimented with by third party devs and innovative new titles strictly through software. Nintendo set an extremely low standard when it comes to graphics; unlike gameplay, this cannot be corrected this gen. It's a major shortcoming of the console and detracts from its value (unless your value has been reordered, which I argue). And yeah, I'm not much of a fan of 360 or PS3 either, but they have not seen fit to explicitly limit the functionality of gaming and provide obsolete hardware.

And, absolutely, Wii gets more people into gaming. But, as I say in my post, it does this through the most low, demeaning, and horrible means possible.

By your own views though do we really need more people in gaming? I agree with your post - but there's a question here - do we really *want* casual / non-gamers in our market? If they exist, if they're played to, they drag the market down as a whole by encouraging companies to invest time and effort into these types of games - and as you've pointed out, they generate a negative perception about the medium as a whole that pushes our would be storytellers into other mediums - literature, movies, et cetera.

If creating a videogame was something a storyteller like J.K. Rowling would have considered, or could have done, instead of a pile of mediocrity like Wii Play or Raving Rabbids drawing gamers, we could have seen the equivelant of Harry Potter. When it came time for new people, innovative games could be drawing them in. While Harry Potter isn't the height of literature, it's well written, it's creative, it's fresh - and ultimately it's of a calibur that demands the reader to move on to seeking books of a high calibur - catcher in the rye, breakfast of champions, huxley's brave new world, atlus shrugged - maybe they even take up latin because the pseudo-latin spell names interest them, my brother did.

The Wii encourages the market to digress into a pit of mediocrity - I agree - if the consumer will buy any product, then why invest in quality? The Nintendo fanboys keep discussing "lazy devs" - yet they still buy these lazy, graphically inferior products, knowing full well that they are inferior.

The PS3 and Xbox 360 can be faulted on some grounds, but at the very least 360 and PS3 owners are putting out a demand for the tools of audiovisual storytelling to improve, and at the very least this gives future storytellers a better canvas, brushes, and paints to work with. Vincent van Gogh would have been brilliant as a cave painter, but aren't we thankful that oils existed when his genius came into the world? At the very least XNA is opening a platform for young developers, the PSP has shown a budding homebrew community, and the independant studios on the 360 / PS3 are doing some solid work. Gears of War might not be a revolutionary shooter - but it progresses the genre, and it creates a visual quality standard for the people who will innovate to look up to.

In this post, I will refer to Sony and Microsoft by the Letters SM.

I still completely disagree with people, mainly you, who say that Nintendo is depleting the game industry of anything and everything just because they have, a strong system not based of the newest hardware that pushes pixels, great franchises that continue to be great and intreging, and are trying to bring in more consumers to the market.  I do not completely understand how you have contorted your views to make Nintendo into this Satan-like beast that you have somehow destroyed any relevant facts to do so.  Just because you do not like what Nintendo is doing, doesn't mean that the world is going to crash down, gaming world that is, and leave you standing on top of it saying, "I told you so".

If you want to be judgemental on anything franchise related, you can get mad at SM too.  I fail to see them ever reffered to by you or any person like you.  What about Metal Gear?  It came out back BEFORE the NES came out, and people are still excited for it today.  Are you saying anything to that?  A 20+ year franchise that some could say is being over played?  No, because they continue to be great games and there is no reason to discontinue it until the story has reached a conclusion.  What happens when you make a franchise that has no defined story line going from game to game?  You can have two games with the same characters but different story and gameplay.  This is what Nintendo does.  They take the franchise, and with every game they implement some new thing that keeps it fresh and not tasting like 20 year old garbage.

You also can't forget that there is nothing for children to play anymore accept for TV show/ movie games.  I think it is pretty sad when my little sister wants to play GTA:SA because there are no games that she can or WANTS to play.  Just because it says Barbie on it doesn't mean she will like it (she's actually quite the game critic)!  How can you complain about games being too simple when all that is out there are highly complicated games that utilize all 12 or so buttons on a controller and require the player to have past knowledge in that genre of game before playing it?  How many kids, let alone adults, do you think that have not played a game in there life can go pick up Resistance: Fall of Man and survive the first encounter with an enmey, even on easy?  I doubt they would.  So the reason for the simplistic gameplay and easy controls is definitely geared towards these people.

Now I bet most people reading this are at the conclusion already that Nintendo is only fitting their shoes for those kinds of people.  You would be wrong.  Those games are there to introduce different gaming styles so that when they want to play that genre of game, they can do it much easier than trying to jump in.  This also has some thanks geared toward the VC.  Some people, restricted by birth, could not experiece the same games as we did, sadly.  This alows people that could not or did not play those games to go back and enjoy them.  This also helps in the instruction of how to play those games.  Now, I don't expect someone to go play Starfox64 and will be able to crush Lair when it comes out, but it would be a way to prepare them so that they know what they are getting into.

If you think I have lowered my standards in support of the Wii and Nintendo, you would also be wrong.  I still obtain an objectified look at the industry through my reviews of games.  This way, I see how games look and play in comparison to the other companies.  It is my conclusion that, despite being on infereior hardware, Nintendo is able to hold up to SM with their games.  You want to have a great story, you can have Zelda, Super Paper Mario, or Dragon Ball Z (if you are into that kind of thing).  There is no exception.  All systems will have the story driven game and the action driven game, none will have just one or the other.  If none of those games does fit you,then that is not their problem.  Not everyone can be pleased at the same time, it's just not possible.  But saying that we have lowered our standards because you expect every game that comes out to have everything you like otherwise it does not meet the goals of quality are not only unfair to the console, but to the people that have been working on making that game for at least a year (except in the case of Ubisoft).

Your rash and unbased, except on opinions, ruling of how people are in regards to Nintendo are not only rediculous but mean in a sense that you are saying that you and people that don't enjoy Nintendo/Wii entertainment are superior to those that do.  I don't see how you don't feel shame in expressing this complete and holy opinion over the internet to blind people who will either be angered, like myself, or be impowered.  In either case, you were wronf to do so.  And then to tell them to look at your blog if they feel they are wrong so that they can get the right perspective just supports my claim that you uphold yourself over everyone else, and, if it were not for moderators, you hold yourself unaccountable to no one but yourself in terms of what garbage spews from your mouth on a daily basis.  If you want to spread your doom speaches about how SM are the good-guys and Nintendo is the bad, (see how rediculous that looks?) there is nothing we can do to stop you.  But, every day you post this same, rediculous, near mind rotting, and failure of a topic, I will be there to reidderate what I have been saying all along.  YOU ARE WRONG.

Panda? Unbiased? Sure...

Nice poll, by the way. :|

[QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] TP and superpapermario are not shallow, or anyway dull. Same will be said about smashbros, metroid, supermariogalaxy, and so on. Blue-Berry

The games you listed are shallow and dull. I've explained why in this post, and during my post on pleasure. These games are constructed around unwarranted ideas that over two decades old in their conception. Hell, Smashbros is nothing more than the mass aggration of marketing icons. Please see anything I've posted on "Franchises" to see why I'd say something like this. Nintendo shoves so many ancient franchises down our throats, simply because if their games LACKED those marketing icons -- they would be seen as the counter-productive force in the industry that they are.

 Tell me what is NOT a shallow game for you. Then i'll try to rebbute. Mention an example please.

I looked in his profile and he thinks Elder Scrolls games are the good...  He's playing Oblivion, and obviously thinks he's a true hardcore gamer because he plays a totally overated game like Oblivion.

[QUOTE="MagnuzGuerra"]

So you are irritaded because new gamers are having a lot of fun with the Wii?

What's the point in playing videogames if it's not to have fun?

To display how much polygons your favourite character have?

Actually, that's why most people still think games are a waste of money, they can't see the fun behind a screenshot.

And, if you don't like the Wii, just don't buy it. Geez...:|

FoamingPanda

I would do what you advise, if my favorite fact of Nintendo, wasn't true.  Meaningful games will grow more scarce in porportion to the size of the casual market.  Meaningful games will decline in quality as their is smaller incentitive to design the games or raise the standards, see my blog post on the porportional decline of complexity in games.

I don't see them declining in quality just because they don't have a complex combination of buttons or menus.
I can see the industry declining in quality when the focus is in anything but making the game fun to play.

I have more fun playing R-Type 3 or Ikaruga than playing GTA or MGS. What's the problem with that?

Just because those are games that only use 3 buttons and don't have a meaningful plot they are worse than the others?
They're not games for everyone, just like Wii Sports or Wii Play or Brain Age.

Dictating your tastes as if they're the right ones and bashing new games when their choices are different won't help people stop thinking that games are a waste of time and money.

[QUOTE="FoamingPanda"][QUOTE="11Marcel"]

Can I object by mentioning the classic statement "graphics don't matter too much"? Best example is gears of war. It looks great and all, but I can easily imagine myself having 10x more fun with zelda TP. Also, I think also why the industry is seen as childish, is because most people don't see any depth in games. For example the games THEY see, are games like ehm... gears yes.

I think if you're going to have a better gameplay instead of creating better graphics (if you can only get graphics to a max you already know, you can invest the extra time to work on gameplay) then I think the wii isn't necessarily bad. Also, the wii probably gets more people into gaming.

subrosian

And who says that graphics and gameplay must exist at each others expense? Unlike graphics, which have a fixed "max" depdending on hardware, gameplay can be tweaked and experimented with by third party devs and innovative new titles strictly through software. Nintendo set an extremely low standard when it comes to graphics; unlike gameplay, this cannot be corrected this gen. It's a major shortcoming of the console and detracts from its value (unless your value has been reordered, which I argue). And yeah, I'm not much of a fan of 360 or PS3 either, but they have not seen fit to explicitly limit the functionality of gaming and provide obsolete hardware.

And, absolutely, Wii gets more people into gaming. But, as I say in my post, it does this through the most low, demeaning, and horrible means possible.

By your own views though do we really need more people in gaming? I agree with your post - but there's a question here - do we really *want* casual / non-gamers in our market? If they exist, if they're played to, they drag the market down as a whole by encouraging companies to invest time and effort into these types of games - and as you've pointed out, they generate a negative perception about the medium as a whole that pushes our would be storytellers into other mediums - literature, movies, et cetera.

If creating a videogame was something a storyteller like J.K. Rowling would have considered, or could have done, instead of a pile of mediocrity like Wii Play or Raving Rabbids drawing gamers, we could have seen the equivelant of Harry Potter. When it came time for new people, innovative games could be drawing them in. While Harry Potter isn't the height of literature, it's well written, it's creative, it's fresh - and ultimately it's of a calibur that demands the reader to move on to seeking books of a high calibur - catcher in the rye, breakfast of champions, huxley's brave new world, atlus shrugged - maybe they even take up latin because the pseudo-latin spell names interest them, my brother did.

The Wii encourages the market to digress into a pit of mediocrity - I agree - if the consumer will buy any product, then why invest in quality? The Nintendo fanboys keep discussing "lazy devs" - yet they still buy these lazy, graphically inferior products, knowing full well that they are inferior.

The PS3 and Xbox 360 can be faulted on some grounds, but at the very least 360 and PS3 owners are putting out a demand for the tools of audiovisual storytelling to improve, and at the very least this gives future storytellers a better canvas, brushes, and paints to work with. Vincent van Gogh would have been brilliant as a cave painter, but aren't we thankful that oils existed when his genius came into the world? At the very least XNA is opening a platform for young developers, the PSP has shown a budding homebrew community, and the independant studios on the 360 / PS3 are doing some solid work. Gears of War might not be a revolutionary shooter - but it progresses the genre, and it creates a visual quality standard for the people who will innovate to look up to.

[QUOTE="Blue-Berry"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] TP and superpapermario are not shallow, or anyway dull. Same will be said about smashbros, metroid, supermariogalaxy, and so on. NATATO

The games you listed are shallow and dull. I've explained why in this post, and during my post on pleasure. These games are constructed around unwarranted ideas that over two decades old in their conception. Hell, Smashbros is nothing more than the mass aggration of marketing icons. Please see anything I've posted on "Franchises" to see why I'd say something like this. Nintendo shoves so many ancient franchises down our throats, simply because if their games LACKED those marketing icons -- they would be seen as the counter-productive force in the industry that they are.

Tell me what is NOT a shallow game for you. Then i'll try to rebbute. Mention an example please.

I looked in his profile and he thinks Elder Scrolls games are the good... He's playing Oblivion, and obviously thinks he's a true hardcore gamer because he plays a totally overated game like Oblivion.

Oblivion PC is not overrated - it's an excellent gaming experience, it reminds me a great deal of playing Ocarina of Time for the first time - if Ocarina of Time had let you do anything you wanted, given you complete control over your character, and had supported modifications being made to the game. The amount of user-created content for Oblivion is completely insane, it's a well-excecuted, long enjoyable experience that you shouldn't feel the need to diss simply because you don't agree with one poster's opinion.

You may not agree with Foaming Panda, but I don't see a lot in this post that can be refutted. If you do, refute it - instead of attacking the poster.

[QUOTE="Blue-Berry"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] TP and superpapermario are not shallow, or anyway dull. Same will be said about smashbros, metroid, supermariogalaxy, and so on. NATATO

The games you listed are shallow and dull. I've explained why in this post, and during my post on pleasure. These games are constructed around unwarranted ideas that over two decades old in their conception. Hell, Smashbros is nothing more than the mass aggration of marketing icons. Please see anything I've posted on "Franchises" to see why I'd say something like this. Nintendo shoves so many ancient franchises down our throats, simply because if their games LACKED those marketing icons -- they would be seen as the counter-productive force in the industry that they are.

 Tell me what is NOT a shallow game for you. Then i'll try to rebbute. Mention an example please.

I looked in his profile and he thinks Elder Scrolls games are the good...  He's playing Oblivion, and obviously thinks he's a true hardcore gamer because he plays a totally overated game like Oblivion.

Wonderful Assumptions. Don't do it again.

[QUOTE="NATATO"][QUOTE="Blue-Berry"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] TP and superpapermario are not shallow, or anyway dull. Same will be said about smashbros, metroid, supermariogalaxy, and so on. subrosian

The games you listed are shallow and dull. I've explained why in this post, and during my post on pleasure. These games are constructed around unwarranted ideas that over two decades old in their conception. Hell, Smashbros is nothing more than the mass aggration of marketing icons. Please see anything I've posted on "Franchises" to see why I'd say something like this. Nintendo shoves so many ancient franchises down our throats, simply because if their games LACKED those marketing icons -- they would be seen as the counter-productive force in the industry that they are.

Tell me what is NOT a shallow game for you. Then i'll try to rebbute. Mention an example please.

I looked in his profile and he thinks Elder Scrolls games are the good... He's playing Oblivion, and obviously thinks he's a true hardcore gamer because he plays a totally overated game like Oblivion.

Oblivion PC is not overrated - it's an excellent gaming experience, it reminds me a great deal of playing Ocarina of Time for the first time - if Ocarina of Time had let you do anything you wanted, given you complete control over your character, and had supported modifications being made to the game. The amount of user-created content for Oblivion is completely insane, it's a well-excecuted, long enjoyable experience that you shouldn't feel the need to diss simply because you don't agree with one poster's opinion.

You may not agree with Foaming Panda, but I don't see a lot in this post that can be refutted. If you do, refute it - instead of attacking the poster.

I already did, for some reason he's refraining from answering. I wonder why that is... 

To me,this seems like just another rehashed argument by a hater,only more-intelligently written.

I do applaud how well this post was written,but you seem to be taking things a little too seriously,especially for video games.:lol:

To me,this seems like just another rehashed argument by a hater,only more-intelligently written.

I do applaud how well this post was written,but you seem to be taking things a little too seriously,especially for video games.:lol:

VGobbsesser

But that's one of his major points why shouldn't videogames be taken as seriously as music or movies? There's nothing stopping them apart from the self imposed idea that games are merely fun and nothing more. 

I'm still waiting for the response to my post...SA--X

Same, I dont think he answers to logical responses to his well written, but highly faulty arguments. 

[QUOTE="SA--X"]I'm still waiting for the response to my post...RedLobsterpwns

Same, I dont think he answers to logical responses to his well written, but highly faulty arguments. 

Well, yesterday I posted similar to that of the one I did today, and it completely shut down the thread.  This time I forgot to do this "/thread", so the thread is still going on.  Sorry guys.

You missing the grand scheme of things Panda. To bring in more consumers to the gaming industry. Nintendo is doing a great job in doing so. Yes, the system may not be for everyday gamers, but it's a stepping stone for new gamers to understand why the gaming industry is so great. Let's hope the new gamers will transfer over to games like MGS, FF, God of War, and Street Fighter 3 and boost this industry over the top of movies and music. After all, gaming is those two in one. FoamingPanda

And, as I've said, they are bringing consumers into the gaming industry at the expense of gaming as an entertainment medium and a reasonable level of consumer standards and demands. New fans do not see gaming at its best -- instead, they are introduced to gaming when it is reduced to its most simple and brutual form. See my post on my blog that also explores the very real possibility that high quality games will become increasingly scarce as the casual market grows.

Casual and New gamers WILL increase the demand for simple "lowly" games.  But the Hardcore/Longtime gamers are still there, demanding the best.  The 100+ million people who bought the PS2, are waiting in the wings, waiting for the dust to settle, for the prices to come in.  As console prices come down for the Wii, 360, and the PS3, and HDTVs, sales will speed up, and by the Holidays in 2008, most everyone is going to demand the BEST, DEEPEST, most STUNNING CONSOLE GAMES EVER, and the PS3 will deliver, and to a lesser extent, the 360 will also.  Movies don't hold a candle to games in my opinion, and the future of gaming is very bright.

Well, friends, Panda has finally reached the pinnacle of logical thought concerning Nintendo.FoamingPanda

[QUOTE="SA--X"]I'm still waiting for the response to my post...RedLobsterpwns

Same, I dont think he answers to logical responses to his well written, but highly faulty arguments.

It's only faulty in that you don't agree with the angle it's coming from. It's like an art house movie patron arguing with some underage drunks who wander into a movie. They start making fun of it because it's partially in French with no subtitles, they're having fun, but is it the right kind of fun? The other patrons are enjoying the movie, appreciating the filmwork, enjoying the subtle humor - they have the capacity and the language skills to enjoy it.

The art house movie patron is the hardcore gamer - they appreciate games for being an absolute best expression of the medium - when we talk about excellent games - Oblivion, Ocarina of Time, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI & VII, Gears of War, et cetera there's a quality to them all - they pushed the limits of the hardware at the time, but they were always solid. The controls? Spot on. Interaction systems? Perfect. Graphics? Flawless? Storylines? Timeless. Sound? somewhere between Pink Floyd and Beethovan on the talent meter - matched to the gameplay of course.

The hardcore gamer is the art house patron who plays GeoW like it's a trancedant experience - they probably consistently kick your arse - they're pretty rare, but at the end of the day they're viewing the experience through designer eyes - ultimately they're the perfect opposite side of the coin for a brilliant designer - they're the educated, appreciate audience.

And then we have the casuals, in this forum as they are everywhere else. The guy who's going - look, I like this game because I can shoot some stuff.

At the end of the day, the hardcore gamer likes GeoW because he can shoot some stuff, but he likes it better than Lost Planet because it's a better executed game - it doesn't have cheesy dialogue or an idiotic storyline. The casual says "cool I can use mechs in this game!" while the hardcore player is off-put and prefers GeoW.

Foaming Panda is more of a niche gamer than a hardcore gamer though - he's a literati whereas a lot of hardcore gamers are more geared towards art appreciation. It puts a lot of us hardcore gamers at odds, because a solid audio-visual experience paired with solid controls means as much to us as the storytelling experience means to FP.... but it's hard to disagree with him.

As a casual, I'd want to be annoyed at the Wii because it doesn't do as much cool stuff, it doesn't let me shoot stuff as well, I don't get to fly a plane, be an angry demigod, grow a pinata garden, ride on a dragon, or drive an unrealistic car - and the shared experiences aren't as convincing. I'd look at the Wii and go "I can do these minigames in real life, and the stuff that isnt minigames looks and sounds pretty mediocre"

As a hardcore gamer, I look at the Wii and go "this is lazy - these games are just lazy, I find them frustrating at every turn, and long for a better experience."

And as Foaming Panda - I imagine you see a world where you desperately want videogames to be a medium on par with fine art, film, and literature - and something like the Wii waylays that - if companies can make money without skill, effort, or raw talent - why are the going to invest in a gifted artist? Why mine diamonds when consumers will pay you the same money for plastic jewelry?

[QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

You missing the grand scheme of things Panda. To bring in more consumers to the gaming industry. Nintendo is doing a great job in doing so. Yes, the system may not be for everyday gamers, but it's a stepping stone for new gamers to understand why the gaming industry is so great. Let's hope the new gamers will transfer over to games like MGS, FF, God of War, and Street Fighter 3 and boost this industry over the top of movies and music. After all, gaming is those two in one. MetalContra

And, as I've said, they are bringing consumers into the gaming industry at the expense of gaming as an entertainment medium and a reasonable level of consumer standards and demands. New fans do not see gaming at its best -- instead, they are introduced to gaming when it is reduced to its most simple and brutual form. See my post on my blog that also explores the very real possibility that high quality games will become increasingly scarce as the casual market grows.

Casual and New gamers WILL increase the demand for simple "lowly" games.  But the Hardcore/Longtime gamers are still there, demanding the best.  The 100+ million people who bought the PS2, are waiting in the wings, waiting for the dust to settle, for the prices to come in.  As console prices come down for the Wii, 360, and the PS3, and HDTVs, sales will speed up, and by the Holidays in 2008, most everyone is going to demand the BEST, DEEPEST, most STUNNING CONSOLE GAMES EVER, and the PS3 will deliver, and to a lesser extent, the 360 will also.  Movies don't hold a candle to games in my opinion, and the future of gaming is very bright.

[QUOTE="RedLobsterpwns"]

[QUOTE="SA--X"]I'm still waiting for the response to my post...subrosian

Same, I dont think he answers to logical responses to his well written, but highly faulty arguments.

It's only faulty in that you don't agree with the angle it's coming from. It's like an art house movie patron arguing with some underage drunks who wander into a movie. They start making fun of it because it's partially in French with no subtitles, they're having fun, but is it the right kind of fun? The other patrons are enjoying the movie, appreciating the filmwork, enjoying the subtle humor - they have the capacity and the language skills to enjoy it.

The art house movie patron is the hardcore gamer - they appreciate games for being an absolute best expression of the medium - when we talk about excellent games - Oblivion, Ocarina of Time, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI & VII, Gears of War, et cetera there's a quality to them all - they pushed the limits of the hardware at the time, but they were always solid. The controls? Spot on. Interaction systems? Perfect. Graphics? Flawless? Storylines? Timeless. Sound? somewhere between Pink Floyd and Beethovan on the talent meter - matched to the gameplay of course.

The hardcore gamer is the art house patron who plays GeoW like it's a trancedant experience - they probably consistently kick your arse - they're pretty rare, but at the end of the day they're viewing the experience through designer eyes - ultimately they're the perfect opposite side of the coin for a brilliant designer - they're the educated, appreciate audience.

And then we have the casuals, in this forum as they are everywhere else. The guy who's going - look, I like this game because I can shoot some stuff.

At the end of the day, the hardcore gamer likes GeoW because he can shoot some stuff, but he likes it better than Lost Planet because it's a better executed game - it doesn't have cheesy dialogue or an idiotic storyline. The casual says "cool I can use mechs in this game!" while the hardcore player is off-put and prefers GeoW.

Foaming Panda is more of a niche gamer than a hardcore gamer though - he's a literati whereas a lot of hardcore gamers are more geared towards art appreciation. It puts a lot of us hardcore gamers at odds, because a solid audio-visual experience paired with solid controls means as much to us as the storytelling experience means to FP.... but it's hard to disagree with him.

As a casual, I'd want to be annoyed at the Wii because it doesn't do as much cool stuff, it doesn't let me shoot stuff as well, I don't get to fly a plane, be an angry demigod, grow a pinata garden, ride on a dragon, or drive an unrealistic car - and the shared experiences aren't as convincing. I'd look at the Wii and go "I can do these minigames in real life, and the stuff that isnt minigames looks and sounds pretty mediocre"

As a hardcore gamer, I look at the Wii and go "this is lazy - these games are just lazy, I find them frustrating at every turn, and long for a better experience."

And as Foaming Panda - I imagine you see a world where you desperately want videogames to be a medium on par with fine art, film, and literature - and something like the Wii waylays that - if companies can make money without skill, effort, or raw talent - why are the going to invest in a gifted artist? Why mine diamonds when consumers will pay you the same money for plastic jewelry?

This is asuming that all "hardcore gamers" like french movies with sub-titles, which I'm pretty sure not everybody does.  If every movie patron liked the same movies, then your discussion would hold value, but I doubt that everyone who seriously watches the same movie will feel the same way about it.  So until everyone feels the same way about everything, then don't say that.