I'm Done: Panda's Unbiased Look into Nintendo's "Next-Gen" Plans

[QUOTE="RedLobsterpwns"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="CelineDion"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

Those games may have evolved in terms of graphics in gameplay, but in terms of their story and subject material they're still stuck in 1985. For a game like Metroid, its still perfectly obvious who the good and bad guys are and there's no ambiguity about what your purpose is or whether what you're doing is "morally" right. Nothing really makes you think, or even stimulates you emotionally.

Of course I'm not saying thats what a Metroid game should be like, but Nintendo hasn't even gotten anywhere close to attempting such a game. They seem quite content to stick with the "hero-against-all-odds" scenario for all of their games.

Teufelhuhn

The same could be said about the original Star Wars Trilogy or Lord of the Rings.

Do they suck, too?

When did I say Metroid sucked? I'm a big fan of the series. :?

Then there isnt really a problem with the series.... Why do we need emotions in games if you can have fun with a game like metroid?

Again...I never said there was a problem with the series, I just used it as an example of Nintendo's typical plot devices.  I've enjoyed Metroid games since the NES, I still enjoy them.  But I need more than just games where I don't have to think, I like to be challenged every once in awhile.  I like games like Killer7 and Shadow the Colossus where I think to myself:  "what am I doing, and why am I doing it?  Is this character really a 'good guy', or is there more to this than meets the eye?"

If you don't need games like this, then that's your prerogative I suppose.   

I had those same thoughts about Midna in TP when I played it.  "Why is she here?"  "Is this a good guy or a bad guy?".  I don't understand what you mean by "challenged", because I find these games to have direct puzzels and enemy puzzels frequently.  Do you mean a unique story?

[QUOTE="SA--X"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="kansasdude2009"]

Actually, Metroid Prime had one of the most unique ways of telling a story... but you had to be patient. It wasn't thrust in your face, but you slowly found out about the Chozo, the Space Priates, and how you were affecting them. It gave me chills sometimes... I loved Metroid Prime :D

Teufelhuhn

I liked Metroid Prime's style of storytelling, my point was that once you'd pieced it all together it was still just "the space pirates are bad, Samus and the Chozo are good".

What about prime 2? It had a great story that was above the space pirates vs Samus.

It was Luminoth (good) vs. the Ing (bad).  The polarization was so obvious, it extended into the gameplay and visuals. 

But there was a lot more going on than just those two forces at play.  Plus, the entire backstory of those two groups was greatly illustrated.  I think that a lot can be pulled from that story if you read enough into it.

[QUOTE="kansasdude2009"]

Actually, Metroid Prime had one of the most unique ways of telling a story... but you had to be patient. It wasn't thrust in your face, but you slowly found out about the Chozo, the Space Priates, and how you were affecting them. It gave me chills sometimes... I loved Metroid Prime :D

Teufelhuhn

I liked Metroid Prime's style of storytelling, my point was that once you'd pieced it all together it was still just "the space pirates are bad, Samus and the Chozo are good".   

Why blame Nintendo alone then? Most games revolve around the good/bad context. 

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="RedLobsterpwns"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="CelineDion"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

Those games may have evolved in terms of graphics in gameplay, but in terms of their story and subject material they're still stuck in 1985. For a game like Metroid, its still perfectly obvious who the good and bad guys are and there's no ambiguity about what your purpose is or whether what you're doing is "morally" right. Nothing really makes you think, or even stimulates you emotionally.

Of course I'm not saying thats what a Metroid game should be like, but Nintendo hasn't even gotten anywhere close to attempting such a game. They seem quite content to stick with the "hero-against-all-odds" scenario for all of their games.

SA--X

The same could be said about the original Star Wars Trilogy or Lord of the Rings.

Do they suck, too?

When did I say Metroid sucked? I'm a big fan of the series. :?

Then there isnt really a problem with the series.... Why do we need emotions in games if you can have fun with a game like metroid?

Again...I never said there was a problem with the series, I just used it as an example of Nintendo's typical plot devices. I've enjoyed Metroid games since the NES, I still enjoy them. But I need more than just games where I don't have to think, I like to be challenged every once in awhile. I like games like Killer7 and Shadow the Colossus where I think to myself: "what am I doing, and why am I doing it? Is this character really a 'good guy', or is there more to this than meets the eye?"

If you don't need games like this, then that's your prerogative I suppose.

I had those same thoughts about Midna in TP when I played it. "Why is she here?" "Is this a good guy or a bad guy?". I don't understand what you mean by "challenged", because I find these games to have direct puzzels and enemy puzzels frequently. Do you mean a unique story?

Yes, I'm purely talking about story here. 

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="kansasdude2009"]

Actually, Metroid Prime had one of the most unique ways of telling a story... but you had to be patient. It wasn't thrust in your face, but you slowly found out about the Chozo, the Space Priates, and how you were affecting them. It gave me chills sometimes... I loved Metroid Prime :D

SER69

I liked Metroid Prime's style of storytelling, my point was that once you'd pieced it all together it was still just "the space pirates are bad, Samus and the Chozo are good".

Why blame Nintendo alone then? Most games revolve around the good/bad context.

Of course everyone does it, its just that Nintendo has now focused their entire philosphy as a console-maker and game-maker on simple and easily-accessible games.  I'm not trying to just blame them, they're just the main topic of this thread.

[QUOTE="RedLobsterpwns"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="CelineDion"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

Those games may have evolved in terms of graphics in gameplay, but in terms of their story and subject material they're still stuck in 1985. For a game like Metroid, its still perfectly obvious who the good and bad guys are and there's no ambiguity about what your purpose is or whether what you're doing is "morally" right. Nothing really makes you think, or even stimulates you emotionally.

Of course I'm not saying thats what a Metroid game should be like, but Nintendo hasn't even gotten anywhere close to attempting such a game. They seem quite content to stick with the "hero-against-all-odds" scenario for all of their games.

kansasdude2009

The same could be said about the original Star Wars Trilogy or Lord of the Rings.

Do they suck, too?

When did I say Metroid sucked? I'm a big fan of the series. :?

Then there isnt really a problem with the series.... Why do we need emotions in games if you can have fun with a game like metroid?

what are you TALKING ABOUT!?!?!? Zelda thrives on emotion, and Metroid gives off an erie chill. Sure its good to have fun, but games like Zelda and Metroid are more complex than that. Stop thinking that Nintendo only creates simplistic affairs and that the only thing good in a game is to have fun.

Nintendo creates a wide variety of games and is great at all types.

I was just going by his logic. I agree that Zelda has alot of emotion, I've only played a little of metroid. But, He complained about nintendo games not having emotion. Then he claimed to like metroid. So i said. Why do you need emotion in games if you can have fun with games that dont have emotion. He implied metroid didnt have emotion. I was just going with it. 

[QUOTE="RedLobsterpwns"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="CelineDion"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

Those games may have evolved in terms of graphics in gameplay, but in terms of their story and subject material they're still stuck in 1985. For a game like Metroid, its still perfectly obvious who the good and bad guys are and there's no ambiguity about what your purpose is or whether what you're doing is "morally" right. Nothing really makes you think, or even stimulates you emotionally.

Of course I'm not saying thats what a Metroid game should be like, but Nintendo hasn't even gotten anywhere close to attempting such a game. They seem quite content to stick with the "hero-against-all-odds" scenario for all of their games.

Teufelhuhn

The same could be said about the original Star Wars Trilogy or Lord of the Rings.

Do they suck, too?

When did I say Metroid sucked? I'm a big fan of the series. :?

Then there isnt really a problem with the series.... Why do we need emotions in games if you can have fun with a game like metroid?

Again...I never said there was a problem with the series, I just used it as an example of Nintendo's typical plot devices. I've enjoyed Metroid games since the NES, I still enjoy them. But I need more than just games where I don't have to think, I like to be challenged every once in awhile. I like games like Killer7 and Shadow the Colossus where I think to myself: "what am I doing, and why am I doing it? Is this character really a 'good guy', or is there more to this than meets the eye?"

If you don't need games like this, then that's your prerogative I suppose.

ok.... in Shadow of the Colossus you were fighting these things to save a girl from death. You knew your purpose, you knew what you were doing, and you did it... throughout the entire game. There was no question that the god you were talking to was actually bad until the final end when the game was OVER.

In metroid prime 2 you did it to save the Luminoth from the dark inhabitants that is the Ing. You knew what you were doing, and why. There was no question as to why you were doing it, and Metroid Prime 2 actually had WAY more story than Shadow of the Colossus. The only difference is that the Luminoth didn't go insane at the end and kill you. 

I respect both games, and I think Shadow of the Colossus is the superior game, but Metroid Prime 2's puzzles made me think more than anything in Shadow of the Colossus. 

I was just going by his logic. I agree that Zelda has alot of emotion, I've only played a little of metroid. But, He complained about nintendo games not having emotion. Then he claimed to like metroid. So i said. Why do you need emotion in games if you can have fun with games that dont have emotion. He implied metroid didnt have emotion. I was just going with it.

RedLobsterpwns

I didn't mean to imply that Nintendo games were devoid of emotion, if I came across as such I apologize.   

[QUOTE="kansasdude2009"][QUOTE="RedLobsterpwns"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="CelineDion"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

Those games may have evolved in terms of graphics in gameplay, but in terms of their story and subject material they're still stuck in 1985. For a game like Metroid, its still perfectly obvious who the good and bad guys are and there's no ambiguity about what your purpose is or whether what you're doing is "morally" right. Nothing really makes you think, or even stimulates you emotionally.

Of course I'm not saying thats what a Metroid game should be like, but Nintendo hasn't even gotten anywhere close to attempting such a game. They seem quite content to stick with the "hero-against-all-odds" scenario for all of their games.

RedLobsterpwns

The same could be said about the original Star Wars Trilogy or Lord of the Rings.

Do they suck, too?

When did I say Metroid sucked? I'm a big fan of the series. :?

Then there isnt really a problem with the series.... Why do we need emotions in games if you can have fun with a game like metroid?

what are you TALKING ABOUT!?!?!? Zelda thrives on emotion, and Metroid gives off an erie chill. Sure its good to have fun, but games like Zelda and Metroid are more complex than that. Stop thinking that Nintendo only creates simplistic affairs and that the only thing good in a game is to have fun.

Nintendo creates a wide variety of games and is great at all types.

I was just going by his logic. I agree that Zelda has alot of emotion, I've only played a little of metroid. But, He complained about nintendo games not having emotion. Then he claimed to like metroid. So i said. Why do you need emotion in games if you can have fun with games that dont have emotion. He implied metroid didnt have emotion. I was just going with it.

oooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh

gotcha ;) 

Can I object by mentioning the classic statement "graphics don't matter too much"? Best example is gears of war. It looks great and all, but I can easily imagine myself having 10x more fun with zelda TP. Also, I think also why the industry is seen as childish, is because most people don't see any depth in games. For example the games THEY see, are games like ehm... gears yes.

I think if you're going to have a better gameplay instead of creating better graphics (if you can only get graphics to a max you already know, you can invest the extra time to work on gameplay) then I think the wii isn't necessarily bad. Also, the wii probably gets more people into gaming.  

On a whole you're right though. Nintendo is going the cheap way this gen. Also I think while the wii is selling best now, PS3 and 360 will start to catch up soon once they become a bit more affordable too.

11Marcel

I completely disagree with that. I have played gears over and over again with many different friends and just people online and gears is 1000X's better than zelda or any nintendo game that is currently out.

Nintendo isn't doing a bad job, but being honest, they are moving away from a certain gaming demographic and more mainstream (not sure if that's good or bad. We will not know for sure aor at least 18 months).

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

Those games may have evolved in terms of graphics in gameplay, but in terms of their story and subject material they're still stuck in 1985. For a game like Metroid, its still perfectly obvious who the good and bad guys are and there's no ambiguity about what your purpose is or whether what you're doing is "morally" right. Nothing really makes you think, or even stimulates you emotionally.

Of course I'm not saying thats what a Metroid game should be like, but Nintendo hasn't even gotten anywhere close to attempting such a game. They seem quite content to stick with the "hero-against-all-odds" scenario for all of their games.

CelineDion

The same could be said about the original Star Wars Trilogy or Lord of the Rings.

Do they suck, too?

Except that isn't even true.

Both Luke and Frodo suffer from the temptation to forsake their cause and join the evil side. While the two factions are very clearly aligned, the characters themselves at least have to wrestle with morality.

Frodo's struggle with the desire to abandon his companions and take the Ring for himself is one of the central struggles of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. And Luke Skywalker has conflict between his own urges of how to react to his friends being captured in Empire Strikes Back and Yoda's advice as to how to proceed.

There is much more thought involved in both trilogies than in Metroid, where the story generally boils down to, "You're here, defeat everything that isn't you." Zelda also avoids this kind of stuff, even though it sort of pretended to deal with it in Twilight Princess.  

ok.... in Shadow of the Colossus you were fighting these things to save a girl from death. You knew your purpose, you knew what you were doing, and you did it... throughout the entire game. There was no question that the god you were talking to was actually bad until the final end when the game was OVER.

kansasdude2009

Perhaps it may have seemed this way to you, but for me it was much different.  Being instantly cast into the world with little explanation as to why you're in a forbidden land or why you're attempting to revive a girl sacrificed by her people, you're left to your own devices to merely assume what you will about the situation.  To me the whole inital setup had a very "Deal with the devil" feeling when you make accept Dormin's proposal.  Every time I took down one of the seemingly peaceful Colossi and heard their inhuman death moans, it raised a sense of conflicting morality and made me question just what exactly my purpose was.  In the end I found Wander's self-sacrifice for the mysterious girl to be utterly beautiful, while at the same time incredibly sad.

I suppose its fair not everyone has the same take on the game as I do, same as I may not appreciate Metroid Prime's story as much as others.

[QUOTE="Iyethar"]

Ironically, the Wii is the best shot in this generation of enhancing the perception of gaming beyond that of a child's toy.

Panda doesn't realize that because he's too attached to his subjective assessments of quality.

Iyethar

To expand upon this thought, let me say that interactive entertainment cannot dispel prejudice by dint of any measure of sophistication, quality or artistic merit.  There can be two types of prejudices concerning interactive entertainment - the first being prejudices about the nature of the thing in itself, the second being prejudices about the nature of its users.  Either type will prevent its holder from experiencing the merit in any example of interactive entertainment.  Those who hold such prejudices will avoid it or dislike it, and they do not trust its proponents.

Therefore Nintendo's focus on accessibility is key.  Panda questions the value of casual/weekend gamers to the game market, to which I answer that they are essential.  To dispel prejudices against gaming and its users, every person must know that many of their peers consider the activity part of a healthy and good life.  To accomplish this is a simple matter of selling a game console to as many people as conceivably possible, and providing as much software as possible for as many types of users as possible.

This necessarily encompasses software for those who do not care about cinematic gaming or complex and dynamic simulations.  It doesn't exclude those that do, however.  The software design of games has much room in which to progress, most of which is not limited by the Wii.

There are many cases in which a person's direct interests and preferences may dictate that an HD console is a better choice than a Wii.  Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of those cases involve persons who are already participating in the home console market.  For those who historically haven't participated in the console market, the improvements of the HD consoles over the last generation don't have value.

The Wii is a good value proposition to prior participants and new users alike, and provides lower development costs to developers.  It's a good platform to accomplish the goal of having large numbers of users and a large number of games.  Quantity of users makes anti-gaming prejudice harder to hold.  Quantity breeds variety, and a variety of users and a variety of games designed for them makes new prejudices harder to form.

I also have two pieces of advice for Panda.  The first is that claiming to be unbiased is absurd by definition and alerts the suspicion of a clear and rational thinker.  The second is a recommendation from William Strunk, Jr. - omit needless words.

And I agree with nearly everything you had to say.

One thing the guys on these boards don't get (the ones who want or have a ps3 and 360) most consumers do not get HD gaming and don't get why it is so expensive. To us, we understand it and want it to grow, but remember, most consumers who have an HD set do not even have an HD source running it. Yes that's a fact. People don't even understand what HD is, don't get HD movies (bluray) and don't get how gears looks great on a plasma with hdmi at 1080p vs. a regular hookup and a regular TV.

There are a lot of people who are saying that the marketing by both MS and Sony has been extremely lacking in regards to educating the marketplace about HD gaming. Nintendo might win simply because consumers will always understand what the consoles main goal is (at least over the next 4 years, hopefully by then most consumers should be educated about HD gaming).

[QUOTE="SER69"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="kansasdude2009"]

Actually, Metroid Prime had one of the most unique ways of telling a story... but you had to be patient. It wasn't thrust in your face, but you slowly found out about the Chozo, the Space Priates, and how you were affecting them. It gave me chills sometimes... I loved Metroid Prime :D

Teufelhuhn

I liked Metroid Prime's style of storytelling, my point was that once you'd pieced it all together it was still just "the space pirates are bad, Samus and the Chozo are good".

Why blame Nintendo alone then? Most games revolve around the good/bad context.

Of course everyone does it, its just that Nintendo has now focused their entire philosphy as a console-maker and game-maker on simple and easily-accessible games.  I'm not trying to just blame them, they're just the main topic of this thread.

So you blame them because they are trying to attract non-gamers? That's selfish.

ok.... in Shadow of the Colossus you were fighting these things to save a girl from death. You knew your purpose, you knew what you were doing, and you did it... throughout the entire game. There was no question that the god you were talking to was actually bad until the final end when the game was OVER.

In metroid prime 2 you did it to save the Luminoth from the dark inhabitants that is the Ing. You knew what you were doing, and why. There was no question as to why you were doing it, and Metroid Prime 2 actually had WAY more story than Shadow of the Colossus. The only difference is that the Luminoth didn't go insane at the end and kill you. 

I respect both games, and I think Shadow of the Colossus is the superior game, but Metroid Prime 2's puzzles made me think more than anything in Shadow of the Colossus. 

kansasdude2009

SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The federation found that the space pirates had made a fortress on one of the planets under their sector, Aether.  A large vessel of Marines followed a transport ship to the planet, but had to crash land because of atmospheric conditions.  The space pirates knew that the federation had landed, but were given orders not to attack them because the fed. did not know exactly where their base was.  Meanwhile, the feds. set up a base and tried to make a temporary HQ until they could get reinforcements.  The problem was that they just so happened to land on a splinter hive (think of it as an ant hill), which meant they were constantly fighting them off.  One day, many splinters showed up, but they were black and much tougher than before; they completely wiped out the troops.  Back at the space pirate base, the troops there were beginning to think the fed. was about to start an attack and the pirates were scared.  Many of them also reported seeing Samus around theres tealing their phazon (radioactive material with many purposes).

After the federation base was attacked, Samus was sent in to investigate what happened.  Upon landing, her ship was struck and also had to crash land and found itself near the hive as well.  As it turned out, the entire fleet of feds. were possesed by some weird beings that she later came to find to be "the Ing".  After finding out there were no more troops left and getting all her equipment taken from her by the ing and this mysterious Dark Samus, she decided to do some exploring.  She found out soon enough a creature name U-Mos, a luminoth, who was the last one still consious... all the others were chronologically frozen or dead.  He told her that the Ing had appeared after a meteor hit the planet and caused the two dimensions to appear (resemblant to the meteor that hit Tallon IV).  Each side had its own light, and the ing had stolen theirs.  If the last of the light was taken, then light Aether would collaps and die.  So it became Samus' mission to find the light and return it.

Soon after this, she found her way to the space pirate base where she had to confront not only space pirates, but Dark Samus.  After her dual with Dark S, she made it into the dark world.  The space pirates witnessed this battle, now knowing that there were two Sami instead ofone.  They quickly made a deal with the dark one promissing her phazon as long as she didn't fight them and attacked Samus.  She agreed.

That's all for now, I will give you the rest later maybe.  But as you can see, there is much more than Luminoth VS Ing.

I actually feel quite the same way. Although I do like the Wii, I also see it as yet another step back when it comes to getting people to recognize video games as something more than just toys. It's just sad to see how far backwards we've come since 1999. Back then we had Fallout and Planescape, right now we have nothing that comes even close to them. 

So you blame them because they are trying to attract non-gamers? That's selfish.

SER69

Blame them for what? I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.

And if wanting Nintendo to make games that I like rather than what games my grandfather will like is selfish...then so be it.

Well, friends, Panda has finally reached the pinnacle of logical thought concerning Nintendo. In this thread, you will find the most objective, gamer-friendly, and industry-positive interperation of Nintendo's "Next-Gen" plans. If you object to a paticular point of this post, I encourage you to explore my blog. Chances are, I've done a post on it one time or another. Read over this with an open mind, thanks.

The Problem with Gaming in General

Gaming has long been critcized as a childish and wasteful hobby. The critcism against gaming at the present time is quite fair, I agree. But, nothing about gaming makes it originally more likely to be subject this form of critcism than any other form of entertainment media. Why can we not apply this same critcism toward any type of entertainment media? Some individuals do, but their voices have largely been marginalized and dismissed -- the same can not be said for gaming. Gaming is one of the few entertainment media formats that still has value judgements posited on the format itself -- "video games are for kids. games are a waste of time. games are a waste of money." These value judgements plauge gaming because consumers demand products that have endowed 99% of games with a distinct nature: shallow content, excessive enfranchisement, painfully ignorant stories, familycentric entertainment.

Gaming is perverted by hyper-marketing, a focus on the child and teenage consumer, and an abject and terrible set of standards by which consumer judge games. The demands of consumers perpetuate the stagnation of games. Until consumers demand products that can breech other forms of entertainment media in terms of quality, I believe it is quite fair that most of society views our shared hobby as a childish waste of time -- it's what we demand, for the most part.

Nintendo, more so than any other company on the market, is responsible for the perpetuation of the idea that gaming is a wasteful and childish toy.

Nintendo has Sold us Down the River

Supporting Nintendo, particuarly their 20 year old franchises that create an enormous feeling of nostalgia, has become rationally unplausible this generation because Nintendo has offered a console that is over three years obsolete in terms of hardware. A fan might love Nintendo with all their heart, but, if they were to judge Nintendo by an objective or historical standard, they would find that they were supplied with an antiquated console that does not take full advantage of next-gen tech. The Nintendo fan is thus left in a minor paradox if they wish to continue supporting Nintendo: they must either re-order their values to rationalize their support, OR their values have already been subject to reconstruction. If a fan of Nintendo is not forced into this paradox, they most likely are not aware of the full potential or capacity of gaming.

Nintendo games on the market today are not "fun." Most are constructed around 20 year old ideas implemented in the most simple, brutual, dull, and shallow ways possible. Nintendo fan's standards and expectations of gaming have been warped and lowered so these games might appear "fun." The strength of these games lies in unwarranted gameplay reduced to its most simple and brutual extreme. We all love games that are reduced to such a low, but Nintendo has elevated and promoted these games as the pinnacle of this generation. Nintendo refuses to provide us with superior products, and a broader conception of gaming, because we demand and value simplistic products. Nintendo has provided fans with a shallow console, and shallow games, because they know that consumer loyalty will ensure profit -- you love X (X=Mario, Zelda, Samus, Etc.) so much so that most ignore the major flaws of the console and the short comings of supposedly "next-gen" Nintendo games, but... [see my blog for a full proof on this]

Consumer loyalty only goes so far. Nintendo has limited the function of gaming to that of a simplistic child's toy that functions off technology that is an entire generation obsolete -- making games for such a low quality machine is far cheaper; it's also extremely cost effective when the main goal of Nintendo is not to sell the gamer games, but to encorporate a broader audience. These games only appear fun because some consumers evaulate games by the most low, bias, and abject standards in entertainment media.

Nintendo introduces the mainstream market to gaming by showing them that gaming amounts to little more than a fun toy that can read simple kenetic motions that transfer into familiar on-screen tasks. These consumers do not come to expect quality or complexity from gaming -- their assumptions about "gaming as a toy" remain entact; the form of input is now slightly more appealing and let "geeky." As the demand of casual consumers grow, Nintendo need not raise its standards, or devote precious resources, into developing high-quality games for its traditional market. It need only throw consumers a rotting bone, in the form of yet another 20 year old franchise game, every quarter or so to maintain consumer loyalty. [see my blog for a full proof on this].

Since Nintendo has managed to re-structure their fans' values concerning games, they have also managed to re-structure their values concerning consoles -- the big Nintendo fan, in order to rationalize their belief, must restructure an intuitive ordering of value. Obvious things we value in consoles -- power, cost effectiveness, utility -- take a back seat to more abstract, and quite functionless values, that only appear "great" because Nintendo has effectively lowered much of the market's standards.

Nintendo is trying to sell me, you, and all people who think games are a little more than a child's toy down the river this gen. They are attempting to alter the standards and natural progression of this industry and reduce gaming to its most simple function (simply because this is the most cost effective platform on the market). They offer us vastly inferior products, constructed on ideas that are literally DECADES old, that are based around the demands of consumers who view games in their most negative, limited, and unwanted light.

FoamingPanda

First Sorry about being late to the party... I have a life out side of these forums and well sometimes things come up...

Anyway Panda... Your logic is in sever need of repair.

First things first, about your assertions as too why Gaming is viewed as childish, while other forms of media are not... Well first you made one mistake, you assume that games are a form of media... which is subbject open to debate. Some games are a from of media, other's are not. From this faulty assumption about what games are the rest of your assertions flow.

Your logic is full of fallicies too. What does supporting 20 year old franchies that are nostalgic have anything to do with the abilites of the hardware? This is a Red Herring... The power of hardware souldn't change your feelings of nostalgia espeically if your already a fan towards a company. If anyting the power of hardware and your nostalgia or fandom shouldn't be related at all.

Your second point is all opinion. MGS is Hide and Seek... God of War 2, Hack and Slash. All games can be simplified down to there basic gameplay principles.

Your third point is ad hominem, you argue that conusmers evaluate games with "low, bias, and abject standards in entertainment media." You first have no poof of this, and second are attacking the conumer, which doesn't prove anything towards your arugment against Nintendo. (Also your attacking nintendo instead of proving it's faults)

Your fouth you assert that consumers of the Wii "...do not come to expect quality or complexity from gaming -- their assumptions about "gaming as a toy" remain entact; the form of input is now slightly more appealing and let[sic] 'geeky.'" This is again an ad hominem, and you again failed to provide any evidence as to how you know what consumers expect.

I agree that Nintendo has changed the market, but you attack them for doing so. Your bias shows in your writing.

I actually feel quite the same way. Although I do like the Wii, I also see it as yet another step back when it comes to getting people to recognize video games as something more than just toys. It's just sad to see how far backwards we've come since 1999. Back then we had Fallout and Planescape, right now we have nothing that comes even close to them.

inoperativeRS

Are you saying that a step backwards might be a step in the right direction? If you are, i sorta agree. 

Well first you made one mistake, you assume that games are a form of media... which is subbject open to debate. Some games are a from of media, other's are not. From this faulty assumption about what games are the rest of your assertions flow.

GundamGuy0

How does that work?

You can't have something that's only media some of the time. 

Why would you say that games aren't media? 

[QUOTE="CelineDion"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

Those games may have evolved in terms of graphics in gameplay, but in terms of their story and subject material they're still stuck in 1985. For a game like Metroid, its still perfectly obvious who the good and bad guys are and there's no ambiguity about what your purpose is or whether what you're doing is "morally" right. Nothing really makes you think, or even stimulates you emotionally.

Of course I'm not saying thats what a Metroid game should be like, but Nintendo hasn't even gotten anywhere close to attempting such a game. They seem quite content to stick with the "hero-against-all-odds" scenario for all of their games.

sonicmj1

The same could be said about the original Star Wars Trilogy or Lord of the Rings.

Do they suck, too?

Except that isn't even true.

Both Luke and Frodo suffer from the temptation to forsake their cause and join the evil side. While the two factions are very clearly aligned, the characters themselves at least have to wrestle with morality.

Frodo's struggle with the desire to abandon his companions and take the Ring for himself is one of the central struggles of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. And Luke Skywalker has conflict between his own urges of how to react to his friends being captured in Empire Strikes Back and Yoda's advice as to how to proceed.

There is much more thought involved in both trilogies than in Metroid, where the story generally boils down to, "You're here, defeat everything that isn't you." Zelda also avoids this kind of stuff, even though it sort of pretended to deal with it in Twilight Princess.  

I'll just answer about metroid.  That's just not true.  The old games was just samus surviving an ordeal, fine.  Metroid prime is far more subtle imo.  You are faced with a genuine struggle between a peaceful race and an agressive race.  In the end, you are a bounty hunter.  I constantly wonder in those games if I should even be picking sides, and ultimately I'm doing so because the aggressive race is antagonizing me.  Think of MP1, where samus' fight with the space pirates begins with samus fighting one of their creations and cleaning up their mess, ultimately for her own survival.  And all through the game, samus is essentially just taking back all that was taken from her, and there are the occassional allies (the light guys from MP2, and in MP1 the dead race of chozo communicating through tablets).  I guess that dynamic isn't as "deep" as shadows of collossus, but is it the job of video games to have a question of morality that elaborately laid out? NO! Metroid prime is doing something on its own and doing a fine job of it. You're supposed to feel a certain loneliness in the game

You see, FoamingPanda, everything you just said is an opinion. Sadly, it doesn't really matter. I bet you half the people that will read my post will disagree but thats just the way it is. In my opinion, Nintendo is actually helping the industry progress furthur than any other manufacturer has in recent memory. Nintendo is widening the market. It's bringing innovation to the industry, not just more buttons and better graphics. Next generation, Nintendo will probably have a console that can compete hardware wise with the other consoles as well. And it is likely Sony and Microsoft will introduce something like motion sensing or virtual reality helmets (joke :P) so that they can reach the same markets Nintendo is reaching this generation. You may think it is making Nintendo seem childish but it isn't. Once the GOOD games start comming out it won't be such a childesh console no more. I'm talking about the games that were actually built from the ground up for the Wii, without the use of assets from last generation games... or current generation handhelds...d_eM_s

How does it benefit the industry to bring in new people with something as shallow as motion control? You're luring them in with a gimmick that has nothing to do with the games themselves. People are being attracted by the way they interact with the game, not with how deep the story is or how great the graphics are. They weren't brought in by complex games, and I doubt they'll stay for them either. 

The Wii IS bringing in more people, but not the kind of people the industry needs. 

[QUOTE="inoperativeRS"]

I actually feel quite the same way. Although I do like the Wii, I also see it as yet another step back when it comes to getting people to recognize video games as something more than just toys. It's just sad to see how far backwards we've come since 1999. Back then we had Fallout and Planescape, right now we have nothing that comes even close to them.

RedLobsterpwns

Are you saying that a step backwards might be a step in the right direction? If you are, i sorta agree.

Hmm, I'm not "saying" anything in particular, I'm just stating a fact. Although I do like games that are simply fun I think there's something really wrong with this industry if that's everything it is about. With Planescape Black Isle came so close to making a game that could be compared to classical literary works favourably that the fact that we haven't seen anything quite like it afterwards makes me really sad. 

Foamingpanda, I understand your concern for the industry as it is a hobby that we all love and cherish, but I think that your overblowing the impact of Nintendo's mass marketing campaign just a tad. Yes, there will be a flood of "casual" games and the emphasis on high-end graphics will be lessened, but since when has that stopped the industry? I mean, look at the PS2. If that wasn't a casual's machine, then I don't know what is. The system was technically the weakest of all the systems and the  ratio of good to crappy game was like 1 to 500, but did the industry crash and burn? Not that I know of.

Another thing, do we really need bleeding edge tech in our games. I mean, yes the extra horsepower is always welcome, but right now the PS3 and 360 seem too bloated and inefficient (in size and architecture) when it comes to their specs. Most of that tech won't be fully recognised until the very end of their life span, like what happened with the G-cube. In addition, the customer suffers with higher prices and a larger ratio of buggy consoles due to the complicated tech stuffed in there.

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't be raising the alarms so early into the new generation. Step back and see where it goes. This isn't the first time someone has cried wolf over a nonexistant concern.

One thing I'll give you though is the need to stop the endless parade of mini-game games, there has to be a balance between epics and the pick-up-and-play games. Sadly, it seems we'll just have to weather that storm until the latter part of this year.

Koopaknight29

It seems that my first post was drowned out in the shouting match somewhere on page 3 so I'll post it again with an addition in hopes of a dialouge with Mr. Panda. (Geez this thread moves fast...)

---

Why must games conform to the standards of the existing artist's world? If gaming truely wishes to come into its own as a type of art, then it must do it on its own power, not on the coattails of another medium. Only then can it be considered true, original art. In fact, does it even have to be considered art to be accepted? There is more than one road to greatness and we must find our own, even if it doesn't bring us to the loft heights of artdom.

I will not deny that Nintendo is appealing to the lowest common denominator , but do not forget that they are still trying to satisfy you. Maybe not now, but they still try.

What a great thread, as it did what great threads should do, get people to post.

Not only that, there is some really relevant discussion going on in here, from Nintendo's themes never involving the player's morality, to Nintendo forcing us into a Paradox between Gaming Tech, and Nintendo Loyalty.

Good Stuff. 

Quote taken from the New York Times review of Planescape Torment:

"we may not have seen their Shakespeare yet, but I think in Chris Avellone and the rest of his team, and in Planescape, we may have seen the like of Christopher Marlowe and Dr. Faustus."

This is about game developers. Chris Avellone was the lead designer for the game (planescape).

For 7 years I've waited for that Shakespeare, only to see the game industry getting more and more focused on casual games. I'm definately not blaming Nintendo, but I just think the fact that this is happening is really sad.

What a great thread, as it did what great threads should do, get people to post.

Not only that, there is some really relevant discussion going on in here, from Nintendo's themes never involving the player's morality, to Nintendo forcing us into a Paradox between Gaming Tech, and Nintendo Loyalty.

 

Good Stuff. 

SolidTy

Gah, I go down the street to a Kentucky Derby party with my GF, and this thread has errupted ino this... I'm so back-logged in responses that I don't know where to start, =/.

Stupid Hardspun almost had it one, blah, =/. 

Why do you have such retarded poll options? Basically every option is there to boost your self-esteem. And also you should warn people about the wall of text you have up to welcome them. d_eM_s

Because polls are jokes?  Desu? 

[QUOTE="d_eM_s"]Why do you have such retarded poll options? Basically every option is there to boost your self-esteem. And also you should warn people about the wall of text you have up to welcome them. FoamingPanda

Because polls are jokes? Desu?

Please can you let this thread gladly go away? I agree it was a great one, but it's went way off topic.

[QUOTE="sonicmj1"][QUOTE="CelineDion"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

Those games may have evolved in terms of graphics in gameplay, but in terms of their story and subject material they're still stuck in 1985. For a game like Metroid, its still perfectly obvious who the good and bad guys are and there's no ambiguity about what your purpose is or whether what you're doing is "morally" right. Nothing really makes you think, or even stimulates you emotionally.

Of course I'm not saying thats what a Metroid game should be like, but Nintendo hasn't even gotten anywhere close to attempting such a game. They seem quite content to stick with the "hero-against-all-odds" scenario for all of their games.

GunSmith1_basic

The same could be said about the original Star Wars Trilogy or Lord of the Rings.

Do they suck, too?

Except that isn't even true.

Both Luke and Frodo suffer from the temptation to forsake their cause and join the evil side. While the two factions are very clearly aligned, the characters themselves at least have to wrestle with morality.

Frodo's struggle with the desire to abandon his companions and take the Ring for himself is one of the central struggles of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. And Luke Skywalker has conflict between his own urges of how to react to his friends being captured in Empire Strikes Back and Yoda's advice as to how to proceed.

There is much more thought involved in both trilogies than in Metroid, where the story generally boils down to, "You're here, defeat everything that isn't you." Zelda also avoids this kind of stuff, even though it sort of pretended to deal with it in Twilight Princess.

I'll just answer about metroid. That's just not true. The old games was just samus surviving an ordeal, fine. Metroid prime is far more subtle imo. You are faced with a genuine struggle between a peaceful race and an agressive race. In the end, you are a bounty hunter. I constantly wonder in those games if I should even be picking sides, and ultimately I'm doing so because the aggressive race is antagonizing me. Think of MP1, where samus' fight with the space pirates begins with samus fighting one of their creations and cleaning up their mess, ultimately for her own survival. And all through the game, samus is essentially just taking back all that was taken from her, and there are the occassional allies (the light guys from MP2, and in MP1 the dead race of chozo communicating through tablets). I guess that dynamic isn't as "deep" as shadows of collossus, but is it the job of video games to have a question of morality that elaborately laid out? NO! Metroid prime is doing something on its own and doing a fine job of it. You're supposed to feel a certain loneliness in the game

It isn't the job of videogames to do that, but that doesn't mean that they should never try. While Nintendo is ambitious in innovating how we play games, they have no ambition whatsoever when it comes to anything outside gameplay. That's because of their philosophy, why they make games. This philosophy makes for fun games, but it limits the potential of videogames as a form of expressive media.

Metroid Prime is extremely atmospheric, though, which does a lot for the game. 

[QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="d_eM_s"]Why do you have such retarded poll options? Basically every option is there to boost your self-esteem. And also you should warn people about the wall of text you have up to welcome them. shungokustasu

Because polls are jokes? Desu?

Please can't you this thread gladly go away? I agree it was a great one, but it's went way off topic.

From what I've read, it doesn't look like it.  It seems like people tailed it off into more so a dicussion about the value of Nintendo's franchises.  Considering these franchises are the substitutes for quality in gaming, I think it's still on topic.

[QUOTE="d_eM_s"]Why do you have such retarded poll options? Basically every option is there to boost your self-esteem. And also you should warn people about the wall of text you have up to welcome them. FoamingPanda

Because polls are jokes? Desu?

Enough of the Desu. Desu spam has already all but ruined another of my favorite forums. Dont go around bringing that crap here. 

[QUOTE="shungokustasu"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="d_eM_s"]Why do you have such retarded poll options? Basically every option is there to boost your self-esteem. And also you should warn people about the wall of text you have up to welcome them. FoamingPanda

Because polls are jokes? Desu?

Please can't you this thread gladly go away? I agree it was a great one, but it's went way off topic.

From what I've read, it doesn't look like it. It seems like people tailed it off into more so a dicussion about the value of Nintendo's franchises. Considering these franchises are the substitutes for quality in gaming, I think it's still on topic.

What happened to unbiased? What i bolded is opinion. Opinion has NO place in unbiased discussion. Retract that statement or consider yourself and the thread a failure. 

[QUOTE="FoamingPanda"][QUOTE="shungokustasu"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="d_eM_s"]Why do you have such retarded poll options? Basically every option is there to boost your self-esteem. And also you should warn people about the wall of text you have up to welcome them. RedLobsterpwns

Because polls are jokes? Desu?

Please can't you this thread gladly go away? I agree it was a great one, but it's went way off topic.

From what I've read, it doesn't look like it. It seems like people tailed it off into more so a dicussion about the value of Nintendo's franchises. Considering these franchises are the substitutes for quality in gaming, I think it's still on topic.

What happened to unbiased? What i bolded is opinion. Opinion has NO place in unbiased discussion. Retract that statement or consider yourself and the thread a failure.

Being unbiased doesn't mean you don't have opinions, it means your approach something without prejudice and preconceived notions. 

[QUOTE="shungokustasu"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="d_eM_s"]Why do you have such retarded poll options? Basically every option is there to boost your self-esteem. And also you should warn people about the wall of text you have up to welcome them. FoamingPanda

Because polls are jokes? Desu?

Please can't you this thread gladly go away? I agree it was a great one, but it's went way off topic.

From what I've read, it doesn't look like it. It seems like people tailed it off into more so a dicussion about the value of Nintendo's franchises. Considering these franchises are the substitutes for quality in gaming, I think it's still on topic.

im sorry, but did you mean "substitutes for quality in gaming" in that Nintendo's franchises do not consist of quality ideas and sheep use it as a substitute for a quality title? Or something completely different?

[QUOTE="FoamingPanda"][QUOTE="shungokustasu"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="d_eM_s"]Why do you have such retarded poll options? Basically every option is there to boost your self-esteem. And also you should warn people about the wall of text you have up to welcome them. RedLobsterpwns

Because polls are jokes? Desu?

Please can't you this thread gladly go away? I agree it was a great one, but it's went way off topic.

From what I've read, it doesn't look like it. It seems like people tailed it off into more so a dicussion about the value of Nintendo's franchises. Considering these franchises are the substitutes for quality in gaming, I think it's still on topic.

What happened to unbiased? What i bolded is opinion. Opinion has NO place in unbiased discussion. Retract that statement or consider yourself and the thread a failure. 

I suppose some consumers may enjoy drowning themselves in the 6-15th release of a game that contains 20-year old ideas, some might even go so far as to say gameplay corrects these tired and dead ideas, but most consumers will simply tilt their nose up at the smell of rotting ideas and walk away.  I am being unbias when I call Nintendo's FP games a substitute for quality gaming.

If Mario, Zelda, or Samus was not slapped on the box of a Nintendo game -- that functioned with the same gameplay and premise -- I seriously doubt anyone would have restructured their values to support Nintendo while they're offering you products that are over three years obsolete physically -- and two decades old intellectually.

Unfortunately, these ideas exist at the expense of other ideas that could be designed on the same budget.

[QUOTE="RedLobsterpwns"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"][QUOTE="shungokustasu"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="d_eM_s"]Why do you have such retarded poll options? Basically every option is there to boost your self-esteem. And also you should warn people about the wall of text you have up to welcome them. Teufelhuhn

Because polls are jokes? Desu?

Please can't you this thread gladly go away? I agree it was a great one, but it's went way off topic.

From what I've read, it doesn't look like it. It seems like people tailed it off into more so a dicussion about the value of Nintendo's franchises. Considering these franchises are the substitutes for quality in gaming, I think it's still on topic.

What happened to unbiased? What i bolded is opinion. Opinion has NO place in unbiased discussion. Retract that statement or consider yourself and the thread a failure.

Being unbiased doesn't mean you don't have opinions, it means your approach something without prejudice and preconceived notions.

He obviously has a prejudice against nintendo. And its not that he has opinions Its that he's considering his opinions as facts.  

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="RedLobsterpwns"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"][QUOTE="shungokustasu"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="d_eM_s"]Why do you have such retarded poll options? Basically every option is there to boost your self-esteem. And also you should warn people about the wall of text you have up to welcome them. RedLobsterpwns

Because polls are jokes? Desu?

Please can't you this thread gladly go away? I agree it was a great one, but it's went way off topic.

From what I've read, it doesn't look like it. It seems like people tailed it off into more so a dicussion about the value of Nintendo's franchises. Considering these franchises are the substitutes for quality in gaming, I think it's still on topic.

What happened to unbiased? What i bolded is opinion. Opinion has NO place in unbiased discussion. Retract that statement or consider yourself and the thread a failure.

Being unbiased doesn't mean you don't have opinions, it means your approach something without prejudice and preconceived notions.

He obviously has a prejudice against nintendo. And its not that he has opinions Its that he's considering his opinions as facts.  

The sky is green.

Dogs are cats.

Barney the Dinosaur is for Adults.

Objectifying a highly observable opinion does not indiciate prejudice -- it indicates that you can evaluate and judge an unbiased light.

I must say Panda is definitely not a "Nintendo hater" as a lot of crying Nintendo die-hards are saying. Some of his arguments could be applied to OTHER consoles, and if you see his signature you'll see a view of the industry as a whole and not just Nintendo. Nintendo seems to be the one lowering everyone's standards. There was always the " gameplay > graphics " argument, but what I didn't like about it is that gamers of the past faced with this problem ( "Cows" and "Sheep" respectively ) never said "gameplay+graphics= Gigas_Yuu

when has it ever been Nintendo that lowered their standards? Are Nintendo titles on the Wii still good? Did Zelda TP not get several GOTY awards last year? Do WarioWare and Super Paper Mario suck? When has Nintendo ever created an outright bad game? NEVER

Is it nintendo that is bringing in these terrible last gen ports? Is it nintendo who is aiming its guns at the Casuals? NO! Nintendo has always been about gamers... whether that means a causal or a hardcore. Metroid Prime 3, Mario Galaxy, Super Smash Bros, Disaster Day of Crisis, Fire Emblem, and Battalion Wars all appeal to me as a gamer! To some other gamer that might be Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Health Pac, Brain Age, and others.

Nintendo makes games for gamers, and they have single-handedly raked in Casuals, non, and hardcore gamers alike to their system with enticing, quality titles. 

[QUOTE="RedLobsterpwns"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"][QUOTE="shungokustasu"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="d_eM_s"]Why do you have such retarded poll options? Basically every option is there to boost your self-esteem. And also you should warn people about the wall of text you have up to welcome them. FoamingPanda

Because polls are jokes? Desu?

Please can't you this thread gladly go away? I agree it was a great one, but it's went way off topic.

From what I've read, it doesn't look like it. It seems like people tailed it off into more so a dicussion about the value of Nintendo's franchises. Considering these franchises are the substitutes for quality in gaming, I think it's still on topic.

What happened to unbiased? What i bolded is opinion. Opinion has NO place in unbiased discussion. Retract that statement or consider yourself and the thread a failure. 

I suppose some consumers may enjoy drowning themselves in the 6-15th release of a game that contains 20-year old ideas, some might even go so far as to say gameplay corrects these tired and dead ideas, but most consumers will simply tilt their nose up at the smell of rotting ideas and walk away.  I am being unbias when I call Nintendo's FP games a substitute for quality gaming.

If Mario, Zelda, or Samus was not slapped on the box of a Nintendo game -- that functioned with the same gameplay and premise -- I seriously doubt anyone would have restructured their values to support Nintendo while they're offering you products that are over three years obsolete physically -- and two decades old intellectually.

Unfortunately, these ideas exist at the expense of other ideas that could be designed on the same budget.

Uh, Metroid Prime was a very original game. I don't recall games that have a first person helmet view with several versions of beams and combinations of them with missiles. Super Mario Sunshine has you spraying stuff with a watergun, and Super Mario Galaxy has you flying around planets like no one's business. What other games do that? Super Paper Mario combines old school mario with RPGs and adds a funny and intresting storyline. F-Zero GX was pretty much the fastest racer of its time.

There's plenty more examples. Nintendo puts on the character to boost sales because people like these characters. It's not just Super Mario Bros: The Wii Edition! I think the games would be scored as high as they did even without 80's Nintendo's characters in the starring role.

when has it ever been Nintendo that lowered their standards?

-- This Gen. 

Are Nintendo titles on the Wii still good? Did Zelda TP not get several GOTY awards last year? Do WarioWare and Super Paper Mario suck? When has Nintendo ever created an outright bad game?

-- For those of us who do not bow before the alter of marketing icons, or expect a little more from games these days than "click random box," absolutely.  See blog post on pleasure, I'm too lazy to type up a full explanation.

Is it nintendo that is bringing in these terrible last gen ports? Is it nintendo who is aiming its guns at the Casuals? NO! Nintendo has always been about gamers...

-- Please review Nintendo's Wii mission statement.  I think you haven't heard it, or chose to ignore what it means.

[QUOTE="FoamingPanda"][QUOTE="RedLobsterpwns"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"][QUOTE="shungokustasu"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="d_eM_s"]Why do you have such retarded poll options? Basically every option is there to boost your self-esteem. And also you should warn people about the wall of text you have up to welcome them. CJL13

Because polls are jokes? Desu?

Please can't you this thread gladly go away? I agree it was a great one, but it's went way off topic.

From what I've read, it doesn't look like it. It seems like people tailed it off into more so a dicussion about the value of Nintendo's franchises. Considering these franchises are the substitutes for quality in gaming, I think it's still on topic.

What happened to unbiased? What i bolded is opinion. Opinion has NO place in unbiased discussion. Retract that statement or consider yourself and the thread a failure. 

I suppose some consumers may enjoy drowning themselves in the 6-15th release of a game that contains 20-year old ideas, some might even go so far as to say gameplay corrects these tired and dead ideas, but most consumers will simply tilt their nose up at the smell of rotting ideas and walk away.  I am being unbias when I call Nintendo's FP games a substitute for quality gaming.

If Mario, Zelda, or Samus was not slapped on the box of a Nintendo game -- that functioned with the same gameplay and premise -- I seriously doubt anyone would have restructured their values to support Nintendo while they're offering you products that are over three years obsolete physically -- and two decades old intellectually.

Unfortunately, these ideas exist at the expense of other ideas that could be designed on the same budget.

Uh, Metroid Prime was a very original game. I don't recall games that have a first person helmet view with several versions of beams and combinations of them with missiles. Super Mario Sunshine has you spraying stuff with a watergun, and Super Mario Galaxy has you flying around planets like no one's business. What other games do that? Super Paper Mario combines old school mario with RPGs and adds a funny and intresting storyline. F-Zero GX was pretty much the fastest racer of its time.

There's plenty more examples. Nintendo puts on the character to boost sales because people like these characters. It's not just Super Mario Bros: The Wii Edition! I think the games would be scored as high as they did even without 80's Nintendo's characters in the starring role.

You're confusing gameplay innovation with intellectual innovation.  Someone, I think it was on page 11, made a really good point about this.  And, no, I seriously doubt a Nintendo fan would be willing to restructure their values if their most beloved marketing icons were stripped away from games.

As I've always said, the presense of Mario inflates the value of a game by at least 1-4 points on the GS rating scale.

when has it ever been Nintendo that lowered their standards?

-- This Gen. 

Are Nintendo titles on the Wii still good? Did Zelda TP not get several GOTY awards last year? Do WarioWare and Super Paper Mario suck? When has Nintendo ever created an outright bad game?

-- For those of us who do not bow before the alter of marketing icons, or expect a little more from games these days than "click random box," absolutely.  See blog post on pleasure, I'm too lazy to type up a full explanation.

Is it nintendo that is bringing in these terrible last gen ports? Is it nintendo who is aiming its guns at the Casuals? NO! Nintendo has always been about gamers...

-- Please review Nintendo's Wii mission statement.  I think you haven't heard it, or chose to ignore what it means.

 

FoamingPanda

Places that review the Nintendo games such high scores give them because they're good games overall, not because it has Mario or Samus in it. You just think every game that has a Nintendo character in it is the same. And can I have a link to the Nintendo Wii's mission statement?

[QUOTE="RedLobsterpwns"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="RedLobsterpwns"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"][QUOTE="shungokustasu"][QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="d_eM_s"]Why do you have such retarded poll options? Basically every option is there to boost your self-esteem. And also you should warn people about the wall of text you have up to welcome them. FoamingPanda

Because polls are jokes? Desu?

Please can't you this thread gladly go away? I agree it was a great one, but it's went way off topic.

From what I've read, it doesn't look like it. It seems like people tailed it off into more so a dicussion about the value of Nintendo's franchises. Considering these franchises are the substitutes for quality in gaming, I think it's still on topic.

What happened to unbiased? What i bolded is opinion. Opinion has NO place in unbiased discussion. Retract that statement or consider yourself and the thread a failure.

Being unbiased doesn't mean you don't have opinions, it means your approach something without prejudice and preconceived notions.

He obviously has a prejudice against nintendo. And its not that he has opinions Its that he's considering his opinions as facts.

The sky is green.

Dogs are cats.

Barney the Dinosaur is for Adults.

Objectifying a highly observable opinion does not indiciate prejudice -- it indicates that you can evaluate and judge an unbiased light.

First of all, im going to attack your use of language skip reading this part if you feel like it I'll tell you when i actually start attacking your argument.

    Why are you using all these complicated words? People are supposed to write for those who are going to hear the speach, read the book, ect. Your use of language exceeds most of the people in System Wars are capable of understanding. Also, you seek to use words to confuse others. Good grammer's purpose is not to confuse others but to enlighten them. Most of your posts are just filler. They dont really mean anything. You're just acting like a well versed fanboy. Just because you're literate doesnt mean you know what you're talking about.

    Okay attacks on you argument start here. It is prejudice because you claim that nintendo is not capable of making a deep game. Once again, as I said before, Super Smash bros Melee is not a shallow game. Advance wars is not a shallow game. Just because you think All nintendo games are shallow and moving the industry in the wrong direction doesnt make you correct. You are biased. So is this thread. Everyone is. Saying you arent just makes you look self centered.