Is the 360 causing so much paid DLC?

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GreySeal9

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#101 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

They arne't robbing any one and you aren't entitled to their work.savagetwinkie

Exactly. The sense of entitlement that drips from these posts is pretty crazy IMO.

The only time a developer is doing anything unethical is when the DLC they sell is merely a key to unlock content that's all ready on the disc. That's pretty sleazy.

In any other case, if a developer releases content after a game releases, there is no problem with them expecting money for it. Sure, it is nice when a developer offers free content and they should get props for that, but in no way are they obligated to.

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N00bTuber

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#102 N00bTuber
Member since 2010 • 264 Posts

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"]They arne't robbing any one and you aren't entitled to their work.GreySeal9

Exactly. The sense of entitlement that drips from these posts is pretty crazy IMO.

The only time a developer is doing anything unethical is when the DLC they sell is merely a key to unlock content that's all ready on the disc. That's pretty sleazy.

In any other case, if a developer releases content after a game releases, there is no problem with them expecting money for it. Sure, it is nice when a developer offers free content and they should get props for that, but in no way are they obligated to.

Live with Xbox Live Gold... Microsoft is just breaking in the market for maximum profit imo ofc.
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#103 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"]They arne't robbing any one and you aren't entitled to their work.N00bTuber

Exactly. The sense of entitlement that drips from these posts is pretty crazy IMO.

The only time a developer is doing anything unethical is when the DLC they sell is merely a key to unlock content that's all ready on the disc. That's pretty sleazy.

In any other case, if a developer releases content after a game releases, there is no problem with them expecting money for it. Sure, it is nice when a developer offers free content and they should get props for that, but in no way are they obligated to.

Live with Xbox Live Gold... Microsoft is just breaking in the market for maximum profit imo ofc.

Microsoft is well within their rights to charge for any service that they provide.

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N00bTuber

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#104 N00bTuber
Member since 2010 • 264 Posts

[QUOTE="N00bTuber"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Exactly. The sense of entitlement that drips from these posts is pretty crazy IMO.

The only time a developer is doing anything unethical is when the DLC they sell is merely a key to unlock content that's all ready on the disc. That's pretty sleazy.

In any other case, if a developer releases content after a game releases, there is no problem with them expecting money for it. Sure, it is nice when a developer offers free content and they should get props for that, but in no way are they obligated to.

GreySeal9

Live with Xbox Live Gold... Microsoft is just breaking in the market for maximum profit imo ofc.

Microsoft is well within their rights to charge for any service that they provide.

Yup, ripping off is legal, so they'll keep doing it. Smart company if I say so myself, they just won't rip me off.
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GreySeal9

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#105 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="N00bTuber"] Live with Xbox Live Gold... Microsoft is just breaking in the market for maximum profit imo ofc.N00bTuber

Microsoft is well within their rights to charge for any service that they provide.

Yup, ripping off is legal, so they'll keep doing it. Smart company if I say so myself, they just won't rip me off.

Charging for a service one provides/=/ripping off.

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N00bTuber

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#106 N00bTuber
Member since 2010 • 264 Posts

[QUOTE="N00bTuber"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Microsoft is well within their rights to charge for any service that they provide.

GreySeal9

Yup, ripping off is legal, so they'll keep doing it. Smart company if I say so myself, they just won't rip me off.

Charging for a service one provides/=/ripping off.

I know kind sir, but in the case of Xbox Live, and MS accessories it is undoubtublly a massive rip off. imo ofc.
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#107 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="N00bTuber"] Yup, ripping off is legal, so they'll keep doing it. Smart company if I say so myself, they just won't rip me off.N00bTuber

Charging for a service one provides/=/ripping off.

I know kind sir, but in the case of Xbox Live, and MS accessories it is undoubtublly a massive rip off. imo ofc.

I'll give you the accessories (they are WAY overpriced), but the cost of Live is pretty cheap. What would you charge for it to make it "not a rip-off"?

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kuraimen

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#108 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts
I think MS came into the console gaming business with their MS mentality so it was on their objective list to promote DLC and make it popular on the conole front as much as possible. That's why they were the ones who started buying exclusive DLC and stuff like that.
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kuraimen

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#109 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts

[QUOTE="N00bTuber"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Charging for a service one provides/=/ripping off.

GreySeal9

I know kind sir, but in the case of Xbox Live, and MS accessories it is undoubtublly a massive rip off. imo ofc.

I'll give you the accessories (they are WAY overpriced), but the cost of Live is pretty cheap. What would you charge for it to make it "not a rip-off"?

$0 as long as it includes the basic service of playing online. I already pay for the online sections of a game to the developers and I pay the internet service to my ISP so I shouldn't be paying yet again for the same stuff.
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#110 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="N00bTuber"] I know kind sir, but in the case of Xbox Live, and MS accessories it is undoubtublly a massive rip off. imo ofc.kuraimen

I'll give you the accessories (they are WAY overpriced), but the cost of Live is pretty cheap. What would you charge for it to make it "not a rip-off"?

$0 as long as it includes the basic service of playing online. I already pay for the online sections of a game to the developers and I pay the internet service to my ISP so I shouldn't be paying yet again for the same stuff.

Doesn't matter. You are using a "conduit" for playing online that MS created and maintains. They are well within their rights to charge for a service they provide.

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#111 Locutus_Picard
Member since 2004 • 4166 Posts

You already goddamn payed for the game which has royaltie fees to M$

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deactivated-5d78760d7d740

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#112 deactivated-5d78760d7d740
Member since 2009 • 16386 Posts

[QUOTE="XVision84"]

[QUOTE="sonicmj1"]

Is that why most of the first-party games they put out have DLC? LittleBigPlanet's been putting out new Sackboy outfits and sticker packs weekly for a year and a half. Pain was a concept created by their marketing department for the express purpose of selling DLC.

Microsoft probably got the ball rolling early, considering that they were doing this on the Xbox, but every publisher is a part of this, and it's because they like money. EA doesn't sell cheats because they can't fit on the disk. Oblivion's legendary horse armor wasn't released online for lack of space. Street Fighter 4's outfits were available in arcades, yet Capcom charged money for them on consoles.

DLC is all about getting more money out of people that already like your game. Just like collector's editions, DLC is a way of effectively raising the retail price of the product. The $60 retail price bump hasn't been enough for publishers this generation, so they've been getting more and more creative with their monetization.

For most publishers this generation, there's no point in giving away something that you can make people pay for.

sonicmj1

For your first statement the truth is that LBP is a game where you use content given to you to make levels. LBP is filled with content on the disk, it's enough for many people. Now, some people want MORE content to make BETTER levels, LBP is a perfect way for DLC and money, there is a PURPOSE for the DLC and it is REASONABLY PRICED therefore it is a smart way of making money without completely ripping off customers. Microsoft on the other hand releases DLC that is overpriced and is completely unnecessary. They waste money of timed exclusivity and they actually support the MW2 dlc! $15 for 5 maps, that's $3 per map, don't give me the excuse "your not forced to buy it" or "it's for the fans" because no matter what it IS milking and it is a rip off. Sony does not support DLC as much as Microsoft, and just like NOOBtuber said Sony is losing some profit from their game division but anyone can tell that they take pride in Playstation from their actions, and just the way they present it in conferences and such, they pay extra to have games like Heavy Rain or Fahrenheit released. Those 2 games could have failed miserably and probably weren't going to sell all that well but they put them out there because they were great games with great stories.

What you stated about Oblivion and EA, that's all individual companies, not Sony nor Microsoft. Also, again he didn't mean ALL DLC are because of Microsoft, he was asking people if they thought that the limited space in a DVD can possibly be a cause of DLC, if GTA4 had been a PS3 exclusive would Ballad of Gay Tony be included in the disk? Rockstar complains about the 360s limited space, the only thing keeping them from making the next GTA a ps3 exclusive is Microsoft's constant bribing, apparently it's going to be on multiple disks for the 360. DLC is a way to make money but the main selling point or purpose of DLC is for replay value, many people don't realize that. The siege pack for Uncharted 2 included a new co op mode, new maps, new skins, a new mode, and new trophies, that was to make people who had left Uncharted 2 to go back to it, it was $5.99, did it sell well? YES. Did people go back to Uncharted 2 because of this? YES. Therefore was it successful? YES. Is it an example of how DLC should be like? YES. The same goes for the Pirates of the Caribbean DLC in LBP. That's what DLC is meant for, when the CoD4 map pack was released it wasn't reasonably priced, PC gamers were smart enough to avoid it while Lemmings quickly bought it as fast as possible. End result? The CoD4 remains in XBL and PSN to this day as a paid DLC and it is completely free for PC. When Microsoft said PC users would have to pay for LIVE, they avoided it meanwhile xbox users rushed out and payed $60 for LIVE, end result? Online is free for PC while Live is still $60 a year for xbox. I think I've proved my point here.

The question wasn't whether the DLC was good or not. The question was why it existed. I'm a big fan of what LBP did with the MGS4 and Pirates DLC packs. Doesn't mean they didn't cost money. Whether the DLC is appropriately priced or a total ripoff (always a subjective assessment anyways), it's still a way for publishers to get more money from consumers after they've bought a product. Fundamentally, there's no difference at all between the Uncharted Siege Pack and MW2's Stimulus Package.

Sony supports DLC just as much as Microsoft does. I can't think of a significant difference between how Halo 3 and Gears were treated and how Uncharted 2 and Killzone 2 were treated. They charge for maps, they charge for modes, they charge for shiny new themes for your console. They give you replay value in exchange for money, just like every other publisher on the planet. DLC plans have nothing to do with hardware manufacturers, and everything to do with publishers.

It's ludicrous to suggest that a full campaign package that Rockstar released a year after their game launched would have shipped on disk had it been PS3-exclusive content. It's ludicrous to act like Sony's DLC is a wonderful gift to gamers, unlike the DLC of other publishers, when everyone is still charging money. It's ludicrous to compare the PC market, where people have had free DLC and online access for years, to the console market, where many gamers are accepting of DLC (need I remind you of the millions of dollars in digital sales Sony acquired from Home?).

DLC is a fact of life in the industry now, and if you don't like it, you can go play on the Wii where Nintendo's online infrastructure makes it impossible to distribute. Both Sony and Microsoft wanted to sell DLC going into the generation, every game publisher on the two consoles has been gleefully producing content, and gamers on both sides have been lapping it up.

What you say is true, DLC is a way of making more money from consumers after they've gotten a product but at times it is misused and DLC is basically adding in more content to the game to make people go back to it, that's the point of it, as the months go by less and less content is included in DLC and the prices for it keep getting higher and higher which is terrible. Sony doesn't support DLC as much as Microsoft does, Microsoft basically pays companies to be featured in DLC and let it sell, and the original question was whether the 360 having less space on a single disk contributes to more DLC, the answer being that it's possible. It's not the point of DLC but it IS possible that it can be a factor to a company deciding on it. I never said that DLC was a "wonderful gift to gamers" but DLC was normally made to add content to the game, now it's changed so much and the prices for it have rised so that now it's all about providing the least content as possible for the most price possible, and it's part of the many people who buy DLC at these crazy prices that contribute to this. It seems like this topic's true purpose has been buried and turned into an all-out Sony vs Microsoft fight :lol:.

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#113 deactivated-5d78760d7d740
Member since 2009 • 16386 Posts

[QUOTE="XVision84"]

[QUOTE="sonicmj1"]

Is that why most of the first-party games they put out have DLC? LittleBigPlanet's been putting out new Sackboy outfits and sticker packs weekly for a year and a half. Pain was a concept created by their marketing department for the express purpose of selling DLC.

Microsoft probably got the ball rolling early, considering that they were doing this on the Xbox, but every publisher is a part of this, and it's because they like money. EA doesn't sell cheats because they can't fit on the disk. Oblivion's legendary horse armor wasn't released online for lack of space. Street Fighter 4's outfits were available in arcades, yet Capcom charged money for them on consoles.

DLC is all about getting more money out of people that already like your game. Just like collector's editions, DLC is a way of effectively raising the retail price of the product. The $60 retail price bump hasn't been enough for publishers this generation, so they've been getting more and more creative with their monetization.

For most publishers this generation, there's no point in giving away something that you can make people pay for.

GreySeal9

For your first statement the truth is that LBP is a game where you use content given to you to make levels. LBP is filled with content on the disk, it's enough for many people. Now, some people want MORE content to make BETTER levels, LBP is a perfect way for DLC and money, there is a PURPOSE for the DLC and it is REASONABLY PRICED therefore it is a smart way of making money without completely ripping off customers. Microsoft on the other hand releases DLC that is overpriced and is completely unnecessary. They waste money of timed exclusivity and they actually support the MW2 dlc! $15 for 5 maps, that's $3 per map, don't give me the excuse "your not forced to buy it" or "it's for the fans" because no matter what it IS milking and it is a rip off. Sony does not support DLC as much as Microsoft, and just like NOOBtuber said Sony is losing some profit from their game division but anyone can tell that they take pride in Playstation from their actions, and just the way they present it in conferences and such, they pay extra to have games like Heavy Rain or Fahrenheit released. Those 2 games could have failed miserably and probably weren't going to sell all that well but they put them out there because they were great games with great stories.

What you stated about Oblivion and EA, that's all individual companies, not Sony nor Microsoft. Also, again he didn't mean ALL DLC are because of Microsoft, he was asking people if they thought that the limited space in a DVD can possibly be a cause of DLC, if GTA4 had been a PS3 exclusive would Ballad of Gay Tony be included in the disk? Rockstar complains about the 360s limited space, the only thing keeping them from making the next GTA a ps3 exclusive is Microsoft's constant bribing, apparently it's going to be on multiple disks for the 360. DLC is a way to make money but the main selling point or purpose of DLC is for replay value, many people don't realize that. The siege pack for Uncharted 2 included a new co op mode, new maps, new skins, a new mode, and new trophies, that was to make people who had left Uncharted 2 to go back to it, it was $5.99, did it sell well? YES. Did people go back to Uncharted 2 because of this? YES. Therefore was it successful? YES. Is it an example of how DLC should be like? YES. The same goes for the Pirates of the Caribbean DLC in LBP. That's what DLC is meant for, when the CoD4 map pack was released it wasn't reasonably priced, PC gamers were smart enough to avoid it while Lemmings quickly bought it as fast as possible. End result? The CoD4 remains in XBL and PSN to this day as a paid DLC and it is completely free for PC. When Microsoft said PC users would have to pay for LIVE, they avoided it meanwhile xbox users rushed out and payed $60 for LIVE, end result? Online is free for PC while Live is still $60 a year for xbox. I think I've proved my point here.

Ballad of Gay Tony is practically a different game than GTAIV, with a different story arc and everything. Of course it wouldn't be included in the disc.

Also, please provide a link for your claim that the next GTA game is going to be on multiple discs on the 360.

It's a different story but at least maybe more content than was given, would it have been included on the disk if it weren't for the limited space the 360 has on the disk? It is rational to think that it does contribute to it, Rockstar has complained about it many times before. As I said before I read it in an article, if I can I will try to find it but I remember reading it. Proof isn't exactly needed anyways, if Rockstar complained about the disk space when GTA4 is out they will surely want to improve and add even more content, make the city larger, GTA5 would be much larger than GTA4 so if they already complain that means they are almost filling up a whole dvd disk which means that multiple disks most likely will have to be involved in the sequel to allow a true improvement over GTA4.

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AdobeArtist

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#114 AdobeArtist  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 25184 Posts

[QUOTE="AdobeArtist"]

People are still proclaiming their "should have been on the disc" propoganda, so I'm going to reiterate. Production schedules and budgets for what can be created within a time frame and at a certain cost are realities which limits all developers. This is not to say they use DLC to recoup their initial overhead, but that many levels, missions, chapters and what not, are ordinarily cut out of games due to time and budget constraints.

People compare DLC to the extras on movie DVDs. The difference is that those deleted scenes were actually filmed when the movie was originally made and then cut for what ever editing reasons, then later included on DVD. The game DLC is produced after the final game and as part of a seperate work schedule and budget, and released accordingly. Tomb Raider Underworld's two extra chapters and ME2's Kasumi mission being examples.

I guess you would say that I'm saying most of the time, people crying "it should have been on the disc" are just coming from a sense of self entitlement. It's a shift of perception, where something meant to be extra content to add new life to an old game can be convenientlly spun around as "missing from the original release", even when it was produced after the games initial completion. Their only rationalization is simply, they want it, so they complain how the devs "should have released it" to justify their entitlement.

There are of course the cases where the DLC is released the same day as the core game, which does lead to suspicious practices. This clearly shows the content was worked on during the initial development cycle. But many extras that come months later can't be treated as such. They took extra time, effort, and cost to manufacture that at a later time.

More recently there has been another motivation for DLC, one which I support. And that's Day 1 DLC which is FREE, and simply placed as DLC for incentive to buy new instead of used. All devs want revenue from the games they made and not to lose that potential income to the 2nd hand market where its the middle man *coughgamestopcough* who co-opts that profit. This is fair and reasonable for all sides.

Vadamee

This! I wish everyone was as rational as AdobeArtist! I don't mind DLC, even if it was released on the same day as the core game and cost money, just as long as I get a complete and satisfying experience with the core game. If I feel certain elements were blatantly cut from the game and a premium was tacked on, then by all means rage against the machines. Fortunately, we haven't seen a case were this has happened. Most DLC has supplemented the core game pretty well so I will continue to support the decision. :thumb:

Thanks, I do ppreciate the show of support :)

But still, I can't defend charged Day 1 DLC. I have no problem paying for content that comes later as a supplement to add new life to a game. But that is a clear case of the content having been manufactured as part of the main game development cycle, and then seperated for additional charging. If it was made during the initial development cycle, it should be included in the package.

The only way Day 1 DLC is acceptable is when its FREE. The developers encourage buying games new, and you the player still get all the originally designed game at base cost. Everybody wins.