is there a Western ARPG better than Diablo 2?

Honestly, Diablo 2 was kinda lacking in the depth department.

Depth is the ammount of viable choices one can make. And Diablo was sorely lacking in that department.

In combat: Characters were generally built around spamming one skill all day long, sometimes they would have a few supporting abilities. But even that did not change the rather monotone nature of combat. There was a very low skill cap. Diablo 3's skill ceiling was actually higher in combat, with character builds being bulit around 6 skills rather than 1. This overemphasis on one skill only got worse with the synergies.

In build making: Anyone saying Diablo's build making was deep is full of crap. Necromancer was the closest to depth that game had. For everyone else it was mainly about spending as many points as possible to make your favorite skill as strong as possible. Stack damage through skills, stack life through stat investment. Every stat is a dump stat save for vitality (once you have enough to use your gear that is). I wont say Diablo 3 is any deeper, but in this case it would be like comparing the tallest midget.

I hesitated to name any, because you are clearly nuts (claiming D2 had a story!? Never mind a GOOD ONE!? What game did YOU play!?), hard for D2 and won't care what I say. But what the hell, here goes anyway!

In it's own narrow "Diablo clone" genre, Diablo III and Torchlight II are better. No, you can't pretend D3 is still in it's launch state while treating D2 as it's finished product after (literally) a decade of patches. Comparing apples to apples, finished D2 to finished D3? D3 is a better game.

Moving a little further afield, but still same general area, Borderlands 2 is a superior looter.

Even if you disagree with all of them, the weird thing is you mentioned "ARPG", meaning action RPGs? Like, all of them? Because the Souls series is blatantly better. Pick any of them, up to and including Bloodbourne.

The modern Fallout games are also better imo, so are the Elder Scrolls games, so are the Witcher games, so are the Mass Effect and Bioshock games (if you count them as RPGs, some don't), the Deus Ex games... the list goes on.

"you must have extremely low standards" - No, I'm just not one of these miserable bitter assholes who picks a year/game/developer, declares it PERFECT, and then everything else SHIT in comparison. The reality is, gaming constantly improves for the most part, and just about all older games are indeed superceded by newer ones.

Only the hardcore fanboys and nostalgics try and claim these decades old games are PERFECT AND CAN NEVER BE BEAT. Normal gamers know they can and often are.

@blueinheaven:

The most I've said:

The most you've said:

The only person who has made what could even be considered a case against what I said is @Maroxad to whom I begrudgingly admit is actually correct in that regard. If Diablo 3 didn't have all the other flaws I listed it might be a much better game than D2 was. I've also said I thought D2's story was shit about 2-3 times and was only good purely in terms of comparison.

PC games were actually amazing and not just another fucking multiplat that looks better in higher resolution. You wouldn't understand.

lol the console gamer in you keeps shining through. I remember a time, long, long ago, when a console exclusive could be considered this thing I call "challenging."

@locopatho

I hesitated to name any, because you are clearly nuts (claiming D2 had a story!? Never mind a GOOD ONE!? What game did YOU play!?), hard for D2 and won't care what I say. But what the hell, here goes anyway!

This will be the fourth time. But:

I've also said that D2's story was shit about 2-3 times and was only "good" purely in terms of comparison.

.

In it's own narrow "Diablo clone" genre, Diablo III and Torchlight II are better. No, you can't pretend D3 is still in it's launch state while treating D2 as it's finished product after (literally) a decade of patches. Comparing apples to apples, finished D2 to finished D3? D3 is a better game.

I'd probably agree with Torchlight II, but no, your claim for Diablo 3 is foolish, only you and blue feel otherwise. Who said I was treating it as if it was in launch state? it ate shit during its launch and is only just now recovering.

Even if you disagree with all of them, the weird thing is you mentioned "ARPG", meaning action RPGs? Like, all of them? Because the Souls series is blatantly better. Pick any of them, up to and including.

I didn't include JRPGs because Dark Souls is better. Wouldn't be fair to compare a JARPG to a WARPG. Especially considering how much better JRPG combat usually is.

The modern Fallout games are also better imo, so are the Elder Scrolls games, so are the Witcher games, so are the Mass Effect and Bioshock games (if you count them as RPGs, some don't), the Deus Ex games... the list goes on.

As someone who creates mods for Skyrim and Fallout New Vegas as a hobby. I say: Don't compare games that absolutely require mods to be any good to a game that might actually be considered good in its vanilla state. These new AAA WRPGs (the ones I was referring to when I said 'low standards') like Witcher 3, Skyrim and Mass Effect are extremely dull. Even the simplistic nature of D2's combat is more complex than what you would do in those games.

"you must have extremely low standards" - No, I'm just not one of these miserable bitter assholes who picks a year/game/developer, declares it PERFECT, and then everything else SHIT in comparison. The reality is, gaming constantly improves for the most part, and just about all older games are indeed superceded by newer ones.

Only the hardcore fanboys and nostalgics try and claim these decades old games are PERFECT AND CAN NEVER BE BEAT. Normal gamers know they can and often are.

I never said it was perfect =)

"protip" is an indication that you shouldn't take the following statement seriously.

I actually do think there are other WARPGs as good as Diablo 2: Deus Ex, Torchlight II and Divinity Divine/Sin. You see, the thing you're missing here is that multiplayer is what made Diablo 2. Few other ARPGs, or even games in general, created a multiplayer like D2 did, well until it was overrun by bots. Things like ladder resets, PvP, Hardcore ladders and cow runs made a game that would have been merely good as a single player game into one of the best ARPGs ever. D3 lost all of that when it launched poorly and it almost never recovered. It's far too late for D3 to become even a tenth of what D2 was.

All this arguing I've done with blue was not over some insane fanboy claim that D2 is the best in the universe, but only to convince him that D3 is a pile of dogshit.

I've heard Torchlight shits on Diablo III.

However, I've never played either.

Nope. Some got close but not quite.

It's a loot game, it is the no-depth genre.

There is no depth to slave gameplay.

ARPGs in general usually don't have much depth due to not being so much about "choosing" as "hack and slash"

How in hell does that comment make me a console gamer? I play games on PC AND console. Seriously, some of the stuff you come out with is just plain idiotic. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're a child.

@jg4xchamp Doesnt change the fact that I have seen multiple diablo 2 fanboys try to assert that the game has an infinte amount of depth.

It is why I am fine with Diablo 3's supposed dumbing down. Because Diablo 2 never really had any depth to begin with.

Diablo 3's biggest problem nowadays comes to the lack of permanency. Whereas in Diablo 2, the game gave your character a feeling of identity through attribute allocation and skill allocation, Diablo 3 did not achieve this thanks to respec anywhere, anytime. A character in Diablo 3 is nothing more than a set of gear, whereas in Diablo 2 they would be determined by their gear, skills and attribute allocatio. Another thing Diablo 3 did terribly was to make the loot so unexciting, this problem has been mostly fixed now, but I still feel D2 had somewhat more exciting loot and looting in that game was more fun. Finally, Diablo 2 also offered superior replay value, with its ladders, better loot, and skill point system.

While Diablo 2 doesnt have a lot of depth, it has a lot of replay value.

Lol, was gonna type a proper reply but yeah. You're just full of shit. D2 boils down to click click clicking to spam 1 or 2 skills. These games are all more complex. You are just lying if you say otherwise.

lol. Is that not the same as Witcher 3 and Skyrim? But with either X or square depending on what controller you have?

I did enjoy Diablo for a bit, but I never went in very deep. Same with Torchlight 2. And, if I had to compare, I would choose Torchlight 2, because of the more appealing aesthetic. What bothered me about Diablo 2 was the fact that I would just feel like going in to fetal position after a few hours, it is such a depressing game in terms of atmosphere.

On a shallow level, Torchlight 2 is better. As in, you could play 30 hours of Torchlight 2 and get more fun out of it than in 30 hours of Diablo 2.

I would argue that TW3 and Mount and Blade Warband are better. But, they are of a different subgenre. Mount and Blade Warband is a true gem, only held back by it's piss-poor vomit inducing presentation, lack of voice acting, animation, everything. Yet the gameplay is so good and free form that it's still a fucking amazing RPG.

@skelly34: . "Is that not the same as Witcher 3 and Skyrim?" No, obviously not.

@skelly34: Path of Exile is far better than Diablo 2 and Lost Ark online brings Action RPGs in a whole new level

I liked Diablo 2 a lot. Is it better than 3? I don't care. Its not like I am firing up 2 instead of 3 as a result.

Not quite sure what you mean with this statement, but if its that Diablo 3 requires more skill to master then its absolutely incorrect. Diablo 2's PVP is way harder to master than any other similar game, be it Diablo 3, WoW or whatever. The learning curve is so steep it literally takes thousands of hours just to get decent at the PVP scene.

@skelly34: I'm not watching that, tell me your point

@locopatho:

You should watch the video. It'll enrich your life, as it did mine.

And FPS games boil down to just point your gun and clicking.. To excel at Diablo 2 you needed surgical precision with your mouse, know when to spam a certain skill or to aim with said skill or another, evade your opponents spells with split-second reactions (when the armour 'Enigma' came into the game giving every single character the ability to instantly teleport, the game changed for ever), "namelocking" and "synching" -

there were certain flaws in the game that you could take advantage of be "desynchronizing yourself" from the server, meaning things happen on your screen before that information has reached your opponents, essentially leaving you to blindly anticipate your enemies next move as you were up to 1-2 seconds behind (which is a lot in this case) if your were a good "syncher" as they were called. sounds maybe weird but it was a great mechanic to use if you were good at it you were basically killing people with invisible spells. Sounds like lag but its not quite the same, don't know how else to explain it. and at high levels you don't just use 1 skill, most builds will have you swap between 4-5 skills or so that you had to hotkey to your keyboard.

WoW, Torchlight, Path of Exile, Diablo 3 and every other online RPG I've tested just doesn't have this fast-paced action, everything feels so slow with no skill involved.

Again PVP of course, but PVP is what makes and breaks a good APRG. (Remember D3 shipped without any PVP? biggest mistake Blizzard ever made)

When it comes to PVM (Player vs. Monsters), yes all you do is mindlessly click and spam, no skills required what soever, if your gear was good enough, you were literally invincible, even on the hardest difficulty. But the fact that certain items were so rare (like one in a billion chance to drop) was just so rewarding and addictive. Plus how at lvl 90++ (lvl 99 max) it took you literally dozens of hours of grinding monsters just to level up to 91,92,93 (etc, it takes longer each level) Just so that your characters life would increase from say, 4500 to 4530 and your damage increase from 11,200 to 11,250.

@Mozelleple112: I don't play PvP at all man, so I accept fully everything you say about it. I was talking PvM. I'm a single player gamer mainly :)

@Skelly34: No, I don't watch videos. If youve a point, go ahead. If not, keep being a jive turkey ;)

I see. Well in that case I fully understand your point. Diablo 2 single player is garbage lol. its the competitive online scene that made tens of thousands (even hundreds of thousands) of players play it every day, even 8-9 years after its initial launch.

And I'm a single player gamer myself. If you look at my top 10 all time favourite games, 9 out of 10 are single player only or largely single player focused with online mode tacked on (MGS4, TLOU..)

@Mozelleple112: Garbage is a bit strong :p

I love the single player game but it is a bit limited and simplistic by today's standards.

It IS really cool that it got patches for a decade and PvP stayed strong. Fantastic game, I ain't trashing it. Just saying its been superseded.

NO...Diablo 2 is the gold standard. Torchlight 2 and Nox come pretty close though if you ask me.

Referring to PvE primarily.

And, I HIGHLY doubt what you are saying. Exploiting bad netcode does not make for a deep gameplay. Diablo 2's PvP was popular since it was well integrated with the rest of the game, but it was never anything serious. Nox still has the best isometric ARPG combat. Far less stiff, far more balanced, faster and involved far more skill.

Watched a popular PvP video and the guy was using 3 skills. Even the most basic class in Nox used 5 (in addition to basic attacks)

Does anyone remember grabit?

Can't believe no one mentioned:

1. Titan Quest: Immortal Throne

2. Grim Dawn (new release, Feb 2016)

No

No love for the original Diablo?

Pretty much any one is better than that ninja-loot stealing POS game.

D3 is far superior... D2ools can suck it.

Path of Exile is pretty good.

I love the atmosphere from the original, none of the sequels have replicated or surpassed it in any way. But its gameplay is hopelessly outdated.

Agreed. Times change and definitions do with them

cant believe people resurrecting a 1 year old topic

And titan quest has been mentioned a few times on this thread

I hear Grim Dawn is pretty good. Probably not Diablo II good, but if someone is looking for a new game like it...

Hmm I see it's an accidental necro, and the game has been mentioned before. Huzzah.

Yes and no.. Diablo 2 is not perfect, by today's standards it has quite a few problems.. Especially when it comes to actual class balance and the like.. Diablo 3 the devs are far more into the class balance in trying to make every ability useful.. Diablo 2 there is a laundry list of worthless abilities and they only made some "worthless" abilities worth investing with synergy.. If we had some kind of strange child hybrid between Diablo 2 and Diablo 3, that would be the gold standard imo.

Grim Dawn is the closest game I've found to be as good as Diablo 2. It might even be better in many respects.

Bah, a necro thread. Lock this shit.

I've enjoyed Diablo 3 on consoles far more than I enjoyed Diablo 2, which I enjoyed far more than Diablo. No more clicking for me!

Destiny

eee, another necro

@locopatho: Diablo 3 is still much worse than Diablo 2, IMO. The swap-n-go crap skills management alone makes it such a soulless experience. But to each their own. It is such a shallow game (which, as you noted, is saying something with Diablo 2 not actually being deep in any real way)

Hell no.

Diablo 1's gameplay was somehow better than the sequels. The original Diablo was about making the best out of what you were given. Diablo 2 and 3 threw this out the window. And replaced it with infinite farming for days. Turning the Diablo into a game of dealing with the cards you were given into a game about slave grinding for days.

Yes there is , Path of Exile. But nowdays casuals find it too difficult

D3 was the biggest mess i could ever imagine and one of the most upsetting games i ever played ( PC version on release ).

Path of Exile easy.

D2 was good and I spent years on it but compared to Path of Exile it's bleh in depth.

No, that would be Dark Souls.

I don't know, i never dedicated time for these games beyond finishing the single player a few times with different characters. I like your opinion on the game, but i won't agree because there's simply much to be lacking in Diablo regarding the gameplay in comparison to newer hack 'n slash - point 'n click RPGs.

@planex: Dat necro thread

Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance was more fun than D2 for me.