Is Total War, the most Complex and Deepest Franchise of Our Time?

When it comes to Total War, the franchise always delivers a lot of content. One game can hook you up for months. These titles are system based, which already leaves a lot of room for multiple replays. But things don't end there. You have multiple factions with different units and starting positions on maps.

Different units have different strengths and weaknesses. Advance units are unlocked later in the game, and are recruited by the player. You have to train these units before taking them to battle, which means you'll have to spend money. Units also have upkeep cost, that is taken from your bank balance after every turn.

To fill your bank balance, first you have to earn money on campaign map, that uses turn based system and 4x elements. You can sent a diplomat to negotiate with other factions, that make their moves when you end the turn. You can trade with other factions or become their alley. You can also conquer other settlements to expand your empire.

The more settlements you conquer, the more taxes you receive from locals, which also increase your income. You have to keep your people happy to prevent people from becoming rebellions. You have to build hospitals to cure diseases, upgrade your city and castle walls to protect them from your enemies, build new buildings for your military, so you can recruit more unique units.

You also have to build farms, roads, docks etc to increase income via trade and for providing food to your people. Building Mosques, Churches and other religious places are also necessary to keep people peaceful. You have to spend your money wisely and make sure that you are not spending too much of it, otherwise you'll go bankrupt in difficult times.

These difficult times can be natural disasters like Earthquakes or Floods that can kill your population and reduce your income per turn. Or these can be some sort of diseases or military invasion. The great thing about Total War is that, it mixes these twists and turns with historic accuracy. For example, everything goes well until Mongol invasion in Medieval 2: Total War. Then you have to fight them back with all the resources you have.

So, basically you experience events of history but at the same time, you have complete control to overcome these challenges and rewrite history. Same goes for natural disasters and other threats. You can also upgrade stats of your units or unlock new ones with the help of tech tree. These tech trees also differ based on faction that you've chosen for your walkthrough. Now imagine unique units, tech trees, goals etc in a game like Medieval 2, where there are 17 playable factions.

Things become even more exiting when you think that the campaign map is not just a cookie cutter map with no functionality. It's actually a real world with forests, mountains, bridges, rivers and so on. All of these things can affect real time battle. For example, if your army meets the enemy near a bridge, then the real time battle that you will fight, will be near the bridge. If you decide you ambush your enemies near mountains or forests,,, go ahead. Now imagine a game like Empire: Total War, where you basically have entire world to conquer, full of different terrains, multiple factions, different religions and unique units.

On campaign map you can also deploy spies and assassins. You can betray your allies by sending assassin inside their castle and executing one of their generals. Without a good general, there is always a chance of units to turn their backs during the war and run away without a good commander. You can send your spies to see what you are up against or to open the gates of the castle, so you don't have to use siege towers or battering rams to enter the settlement.

You can also perform sabotage missions and blow up their training facilities and other similar stuff before the battle to destroy their economy and to make them weak internally before invading them. Your spies can put their buildings on fire and poison their foods. Or you can ask your enemies to join you in battle against someone else, or you will slaughter them all. After winning the battle, you can also choose to loot the place, take over peacefully or to kill every last one of them. All of these actions have different consequences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cCrMNl9iqE

Then you have real time battles, that use real world tactics. You have infantries, cavalries, archers and skirmishers. You have to use all of these units carefully to win the battle. Everything matters. If you are on top of a hill, good for you. If your enemy is on top, then this might be the problem. On higher grounds, not only your archers can shoot anyone approaching you more effectively but your cavalry will be able to charge at enemies with more energy. Being on higher ground also means that your enemies will have to climb the mountains, which will make them tired and less effective during combat.

Different units also have different stats. Some have good morale but bad attack. Others have great defense but bad defense. Yet others have great attacking abilities but bad speed and so on. Better,,, some units are great at pretty much everything but are extremely expensive. But there are some units that are better if used wisely but also cheaper. It's all about using your head and deploying right units at the right time. For example, Hashashins are not good at 1:1 combat due to smaller numbers but they are amazing at skirmishes and holding the line during siege battles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7fwcElPNhw

You can hide your cavalry in the forest and charge enemies from behind to break their morale. You can charge over and over again from behind, while your infantry fights 1:1 battle with them. This is great way to break their morale and force them to flee the battle. You can also recruit mercenaries on campaign map to fight for you on the battlefield. If your enemies have greater army then you can defeat them by choosing location of your battle carefully.

You can fight them on bridge to make sure that you are not flanked. Or you can wait inside your castle and wait for them to lay siege. During siege battle you can put them on fire by throwing oil at them near gates, you can put their siege towers on fire by firing fire arrows, you can destroy their battering rams by using black powder, you can fight bigger army more effectively in streets by using hit and run tactics etc. But be careful, your enemies might destroy your walls by using canons or rocket launchers and breach the city.

Also keep in mind that different units are scared of other units. For example, camels can really scare horses and cause them to route or elephants can do the same with camels. But if you have a good general, then your army might stand a chance against all odds. I can go on and on but you got my point. So, in my opinion, I think Total War games are the deepest games around and great time killers. And great thing about these games are that despite being complex and deep, these games offer some of the most cinematic, enjoyable and most memorable moments in video games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo93sjrYjAo

Share your thoughts.

Yep. Completely agree. I need to be very cautious with Total War games. Once I played 14 hours straight and I only had wanted to play it for a couple of hours lol. Now when I sit to play TW I set a clock alarm.

@jhonMalcovich: that's so true it happened to me as well, you get immersed in these games.

I guess so.

Same here.

As far as big budget games probably - Empire being the most ambitious.

Total War is possibly my favourite I.P. with Empire Total War in the lead. It's an awesome series and I can safely state I've been hooked since Shogun Total War.

Empire was heavily slated, largely due to being a crashfest when it came out but let's face it, most Total War games are on the buggier side of stable on release and can be for a few months after, they get there in the end though. For scope though it's just unbeatable, this was released before the DLC factions became a thing and every single faction in the game can be unlocked and played from the Plains Nations in the Americas to a Rebellious Scotland (we'll never change) to the Maratha Confederacy of India. Almost every one of the 50 odd factions had units completely unique to them over and above the demographic unit standard unit set.

Additionally it was also the first to add naval combat, the age of European empire building brought about by advances in sailing was the perfect era for this to be added.

Actually I was hooked before the Video game was ever made and here's why

The original (well actually a second edition) of the real Shogun (Total War) which itself was inspired by Risk.

Yes , Indeed

Civilization

Can't really argue with that. What I like about TW is that it has enough complexity without going over the top. I also like annihilating my enemies with a stategy I made many turns prior it's my favourite aspect of strategy games planning ahead and watch as it comes to fruition.

It's still very easy to exploit, i find in Rome 2 a lot of the AI battles can be cheesed pretty easily with some basic stuff, OP artillery, elephants cripple moral too fast, able to trap enemies on the walls, dumb AI moves etc.

Right now i'm wrestling with Football Manager 2016, it's damn hard as there's not really an OP tactic any more, you've got to be able to look at the state of play as a manager would (albeit with instant stats on hand to help), pick out opponent weaknesses etc. You've got to understand what you're doing to make a competent tactic now.

I totally agree with your op, the only problems I currently have with creative assembly are their shady business practices. Otherwise, I think total war is the best thing that ever happened to gaming.

Seriously, charging money for a blood pack dlc is just ridiculous in my opinion.

No.... Games like Europa Universalis 4 are far more in depth than the Total War games..

I don't think I've enjoyed a Total War game since Rome 1, or possibly Medieval 2. I remember Empire being pretty bland at launch, and even when it worked the combat was really uninspiring.

Anyway, I'd say that other grand strategy games like Europa Universalis, Dominions, or even Crusader Kings are much deeper and more complex than the Total War series. Total War excels at real-time combat, but...not a lot else.

Just bc you make a long winded thread with some screen shots doesn't make it absolute.

There's so many games out there that are deep or not to many different ppl......it's only a matter of opinion.

Total War games are time consuming, and even immersive, but not complex.

I would say that X-Com games in the 90s were more complicated than Total War games have ever been. The number of buttons at the base screen alone was totally dumbfounding. I was 10 years old and had to learn base management, staff management, research, manufacturing etc.

@aigis: Pfff hahahahaah, all i can think of are these three https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_Vikings

He didn't say it was absolute he simply asked a question. I didn't read all of his original post though.

Anyways, what would your pick be?

wtf...?

@walloftruth: He's the stereotypical hermit. Him praising a PC game enough to make a thread about it is him praising himself.

My pick?

Tribes 2. It's the closest to an actual sport than any other esport.

how is that stereotypical? and where did TC try to make the claim that his opinion was absolute?

@lostrib: I'm sorry....is there something wrong?

@Cloud_imperium: I have to admit that I own some Total War games but never actually played them. Thanks to your thread I'm inclined to give them a shot though and I was wondering which one should I start with? These are the TW games that I own.

I'm not new to RTS games, I've been playing them for over 10 years, but the TW games look a bit more complicated than some of my RTS favorites likeBattle Realms, any of the C&C, StarCraft, Age of Empires, Empire Earth etc, Rise of Nations etc.

Which one would be the best entry point into the series in your opinion?

I also have to say that Total Warhammer looks sweet as heaven, so I wanna get into the series before dipping into that Warhammer goodness.

@lostrib: please just go. Someone could deliberately misquote an article to start shit and all you say is "that's not what was said".

You honestly don't give 2 shits about this other than you want to start whole long quote chain shit storm.

You annoy me rib...in case you haven't noticed I haven't been replying to you for a while. Just let it go.

let what go? I'm simply asking about what you posted. Why post in a forum if you don't want to have any actual discussion about what you say?

@lostrib: no no.....just not with you.

not really sure what you're taking issue with

Deep? Yes.

Complex? Not really. Your battles are determened by your preperation, and unlike SIV, you always go the conqueror path.

The only reason i like Total War, it's cause it's more simple to win then SIV.

Just as a foot note: I LOVE SHOGUN 2.

That's definitely a good pick, but I have to go with Uncharted.

The shooting and platforming, while they may seem elementary to a novice, do indeed betray your expectations once you're exposed to their limitless depth. Relatively easy to learn, but nearly impossible to master. To compliment these expansive systems, Uncharted also brings us a melee system that might as well be a top tier fighting game unto itself. I always laugh when people look to games like Guilty Gear, Street Fighter, Tekken, Virtua Fighter, etc. as some sort of fisticuffs simulations that are worthy of marvel when Uncharted gives you that experience and so much more.

Then there are puzzles that can twist the minds of even the most seasoned gamers and send them running to Youtube for answers, tails tucked between their legs. Once I was stumped on a puzzle in Uncharted for 14 hours straight. These days I have to set an alarm clock to let me know when to give up and consult a specialist.

And you want to talk complexity? Most games (Total War included) are merely toys. True complexity is the complexity of emotion and Uncharted has this in SPADES my friend. Tears of sadness, tears of joy, tears from laughter. Anger, love, angst, it's all there for the taking. Uncharted is like a movie if movies didn't suck (by comparison mind you), it's an emotional roller coaster, far too complex for most gamers, but for us intellectual gamers? It's the height of this medium. Every day I'm grateful that Naughty Dog went out of their way to weave these intricate threads that will undoubtedly be lost on most gamers.

Wow. This is the most skillful trolling I have ever seen, pretty much a dying art nowadays. @Heil68 Take some notes, Heil. Your routine became pretty stale lately XD

Deep, yes but i wouldnt really call it complex, besides who cares, its damn enjoyable and addiictive thats all that matters and Total War sits with the best of the "just one more turn" games :D

@walloftruth said:

@Cloud_imperium: I have to admit that I own some Total War games but never actually played them. Thanks to your thread I'm inclined to give them a shot though and I was wondering which one should I start with? These are the TW games that I own.

I'm not new to RTS games, I've been playing them for over 10 years, but the TW games look a bit more complicated than some of my RTS favorites likeBattle Realms, any of the C&C, StarCraft, Age of Empires, Empire Earth etc, Rise of Nations etc.

Which one would be the best entry point into the series in your opinion?

I also have to say that Total Warhammer looks sweet as heaven, so I wanna get into the series before dipping into that Warhammer goodness.

I think you should pick up Shogun 2. It's streamlined and best Total War for new comers. Just complete the tutorials and switch to easier difficulties if you are having a problem. There will also be an option of choosing "short" or "long" campaign. In short campaign, you will have to conquer less settlements than the longer one but keep in mind that the real events take place during longer campaigns and last longer with a lot of memorable moments.

Got shogun back in 2012. Stopped playing after 30 minutes. No thank you.

@Cloud_imperium:

Nope, europa universalis are more complicated, as are some of the deeper 4x games

Furthermore there are DCS which require you to understand military aviation and it's jargon before even understand how to start up a plane, even then you have to deal with the complexity of each plane even in the easiest of the modules and in game mode.

Total war are toys by comparison.

Well, i never thought of it, i guess you're right.

Indeed! :D

i was like "hmm...he can't be serious"....then i saw your comment and relieved :v

Europa Universalis? Crusader Kings 2? Hearts of Iron? Is this really a discussion? Total war is pretty, but deep? Sure, If you campare it to Candy Crush.

Look at bigger picture, not just campaign map. None of those games have real time combat.

@Cloud_imperium: ...and? Are you having fun playing rock,paper & scissor? Because that's pretty much total war, but I guess you would need real time for that.

@Cloud_imperium:

Europa Universalis 4 is real time, furthermore the real time combat in total war games were deliberately nerfed from realism that they were incredibly simplistic once you grasped the concept of ancient battle tactics, it's all went down to the simple hammer and anvil tactic with some gamey mechanics being exploited here and there.

And there's also wargames, there was a modern wargame featured in rps some months ago that looked so daunting, can't remember what's the name lol

Sorry, but brainless shooters arent complex.

Its quite obvious that the campaign in total war is somewhat lacking, but the actual battles make up for this loss. Winning a battle that you would otherwise lose due to auto resolving feels quite satisfying. Everything isnt about having greater numbers or more advanced technology.

Winning battles on luck and auto resolving doesnt appeal that much to me.

This is true. And judging by your user name, I'm assuming you're accustomed to those kinds of games on your "platform". Camping simulators like Arma. Kiddie Pixar shooters like Team Fortress. "Hur dur we had cool physics like a decade ago" shooters like Half Life 2. Or babies first twitch shooter, Counter Strike.

I get it man. That's the kind of slop you're used to.

Fortunately, Uncharted is neither brainless, nor is it a shooter. Uncharted transcends genre. It's a synthesis of mastery across multiple genres. It took platforming, puzzle solving, melee combat, and shooting to heights never seen before, even individually, and combined them seamlessly into an epic masterpiece of a trilogy. I'd be willing to concede that it's arguable that Little Big Planet might approach the Uncharted series as far as top tier platforming goes, but even that is questionable.

Uncharted manages to be the apex of a thinking mans game, but even beyond testing your wits, it demands the highest level of reflexes that a human being is capable of. From navigating perilous ruins, to solving puzzles that are true to the adventures of real life archaeologists, to surviving conflicts with life-like ruthless enemies that would even have a Navy Seal shaking in their boots, Uncharted is the total package and the magnum opus of this industries efforts.

Some day, when you're ready to put down that tool that is used for emails and pick up a real gaming machine, with a real controller, you will get to experience a true masterpiece.

Deep, yes! EVE is complex, definitely not for the nooblars. Paradox games like Europa Universalis, Victoria, Hearts of Iron and CK do a good job of presenting the illusion of complexity.

The OP describing basic Strategy game 101, lists the simplest of "4X" mechanics and then talks about scale in a thread about justifying depth. How cute.

But hell no. Total War has more breadth than it has depth. It uses that scope of mechanics to deliver a gameplay loop where its turn-based phase informs its real time one to give the campaigns a nice rhythm and flow. Neither its turn based or real time phases matches up to the depth of what other strategy games offer that specialize in them, but that's fine. Total War has always succeeded in engaging the player with strategic variety to keep its modes of gameplay fresh.

I love Total War. But let's not pretend that it's some pinnacle of depth and complexity. Particularly within the scope PC strategy games where credit to go to other, less popular titles that are more deserving. This is an era where Europa Universalis, Wargame, Distant Worlds or Hearts of Iron exist.

I love Total War but the games aren't that complex tbh so I have to disagree.