ITT: SCEA, George Hotz and System Wars

I'm largely making this thread because it's tiresome to repeat myself in multiple threads.

In this thread: we examine some of the claims thrown about System Wars with regard to the current legal situation between SCEA and George Hotz. Although I realise that the vast majority of System Wars probably doesn't care for nuance and is more comfortable engaging in hysteria.

Here is a link to every legal filing made in the proceedings thus far.

Let's start with some basics.

I own my PS3!
Yes, you own the PS3 hardware. The PS3 System Software is available under license and subject to terms of said licence, including for example that the System Software is subject to change. This is the same for any console.

The notice of license is printed on the retail box of PS3's and the System Software licenses are available online prior to purchase.

The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals has set legal precedent that software is licensed if it meets certain requirements, based on the Vernor test. See Autodesk vs Vernor.

--

But licenses are meaningless!
Licenses are legal contracts. They have been upheld in courts of law.
As with other legal contracts, they or the terms contained within can be invalidated as unconscionable.

This case isn't about contract law or licenses anyway, and will not make any determinations regarding them.

-----

Now onto SCEA vs George Hotz.

Geohot did nothing illegal!!!
If there were no questions on legality there would be no lawsuit. George Hotz may have violated US Federal Law, in particular this Law.

The principle claim in the legal dispute is potential violation of Title 17, Chapter 12, Subsection 1201 (a) (1) (A) regarding the circumvention of technological protection measures, and Subsection 1201 (a) (2) regarding the distribution of such measures.

Whether or not George Hotz did anything illegal is subject to a US Federal Court, not your whims.

Merit was found with regard to the claim, ergo a Temporary Restraining Order was granted against George Hotz.

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Geohot did nothing wrong!!!
That's entirely subjective.

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Geohot isn't from California, right?!!
Correct, George Hotz is a resident of New Jersey.

As such, SCEA has to first establish that the Northern District of California has jurisdiction over Hotz, before anything can proceed to trial in California.

At present, jurisdiction has been granted by Judge Susan Illston, based on what is termed "effects doctrine," and subsequent injunction, impoundment and subpoena has been granted under her jurisdiction. However, this does not mean the case will necessarily proceed to trial, in California, or otherwise.

Hotz's legal counsel are currently contesting this decision and using this contest as grounds for a Motion to Dismiss. The hearing is set for April 8th.

--

But "jailbreaking" the iPhone is legal, so it must be for the PS3!
The Library of Congress added an exemption to the DMCA for jailbreaking of wireless telephone handsets. The PS3 is not a wireless telephone handset.

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But the iPhone case set a precedent!
There was no "iPhone case", nothing proceeded to trial, ergo no precedent has been set with regard to the legal system.
The Library of Congress revisits the DMCA every three years and can renew and/or add exemptions to the law. The next review will be in 2012.

There is currently no exemption with regard to gaming consoles for Title 17, Chapter 12, Subsection 1201 (a) (1) (A) regarding the circumvention of technological protection measures, nor Subsection 1201 (a) (2) regarding the distribution of such measures.

--

Sony sent ninjas to confiscate Geohot's computers!
A Federal Court has impounded George Hotz items, these will be examined by a neutral third-party and any information pertaining to the case will be granted to SCEA's lawyers as part of the discovery procedure.

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Sony is going to see all your personal details, from your favorite food to your mom's maiden name, if you ever went onto YouTube, Twitter of Blogger!
No, Sony filed a Motion for Expedited Discovery, which included subpoena's for several third-parties. They requested a large degree of information, and were denied the initial request.

Both counsel for SCEA and George Hotz conferred and agreed to a more narrow discovery, which was granted by a Federal magistrate judge. As per the agreement "protection of confidential information obtained through some of the subpoenas" will be afforded through an "Attorneys Eyes Only designation", and presumably dependent upon relevance to the case.

The terms of the agreement between counsels and the scope of the granted subpoenas are available here

If you are not prepared to read the actual terms of subpoena, then do not comment on them.

--

Sony is going to send ninjas after you now!
The information obtained is only to be used to a) determine if George Hotz has violated the TRO, b) determine whether George Hotz has ties to California and c) serve as evidence for distribution of circumvention devices.

-----

Some other claims.

Geohot's tools can't be directly used for piracy.
They can, from what I have seen, no links will be provided to remain within Gamespot TOU.

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Geohot is a pirate!
There's no basis to claim this, at least with regard to games.

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All hackers are pirates!
Not true. Piracy isn't the only consequence from hacking, there are potential legitimate uses. That doesn't mean that piracy isn't a consequence though.

--

Geohot is wholly against piracy.
George Hotz is against piracy out of necessity and/or convenience.

George Hotz on piracy:
"I'm less opposed to piracy on the PS3 as I am on the iPhone. Obviously, it must not hurt the game manufacturers that bad, or they wouldn't continue to release PC versions of games. And if a modchip is required, that will eliminate a huge chunk of would be pirates. If you are willing to open up your system, learn some electronics, and solder, perhaps you deserve free games."

"The real reason I'm against piracy is the DMCA and lawyers. It's not a moral issue."

--

Geohot only hacked because of the removal of OtherOS
George Hotz prior to the removal of OtherOS:
"As far as the exploit goes, I'm not revealing it yet. The theory isn't really patchable, but they can make implementations much harder. Also, for obvious reasons I can't post dumps. I'm hoping to find the decryption keys and post them, but they may be embedded in hardware. Hopefully keys are setup like the iPhone's KBAG."

--

"Kevin Butler" re-tweeted the root key too!
That wasn't the root key.

--

Sony sent ninjas after "graf_chokolo" to take away his computers!
No, they filed a lawsuit against Alexander Egorenkov and requested injunction and impoundment. A German court agreed and issued an injunction and impoundment and subsequently German police confiscated said hardware.

Alexander Egorenkov has since violated the court ordered injunction.

In other words : SONY right- Geo Hotz Wrong?

Gotcha.

Dude didn't do anything wrong, TC. Giant posts with a ton of links aren't going to change anyone's mind, no matter what side of the debate they fall on.

This thread should be stickied, but it doesn't matter; people will still largely ignore you and/or continue to vouch for the person who is responsible for the removal of the precious Other OS feature in the first place.

The whole case makes me want to give Geo my parents credit cards... I would not actually do that (my parents would be very mad) but if I had a credit card (which are really hard to get without credit history) I would definatley help fight corporate greed by donating to Geo's defense. Sony included Linux in the PS3 and it is their fault if it makes the PS3 vulnerable to "hackers"... I do not even understand the whole dilemma here people have against Geo when this is a clear cut case of consumer rights.Dy_WarriorsXoXo

Is it just me, or does this post say a lot about GeoHotz supporters?

The whole case makes me want to give Geo my parents credit cards... I would not actually do that (my parents would be very mad) but if I had a credit card (which are really hard to get without credit history) I would definatley help fight corporate greed by donating to Geo's defense. Sony included Linux in the PS3 and it is their fault if it makes the PS3 vulnerable to "hackers"... I do not even understand the whole dilemma here people have against Geo when this is a clear cut case of consumer rights.Dy_WarriorsXoXo

Which presumably falls in line with "Although I realise that the vast majority of System Wars probably doesn't care for nuance and is more comfortable engaging in hysteria."

In other words : SONY right- Geo Hotz Wrong?

Gotcha.

-Snooze-

But while subjectively poorly managed, objectively everything is above board. And there's a lot of misinformation flying around System Wars, which comes up in every single thread about the situation.

Ergo it's easier to link here, than to repeat myself ad nauseum.

Dude didn't do anything wrongDarkLink77

Dude didn't do anything wrong, TC. Giant posts with a ton of links aren't going to change anyone's mind, no matter what side of the debate they fall on.

DarkLink77

Geohot did nothing wrong!!!
That's entirely subjective.

shinrabanshou

People are free to feel and state that George Hotz did nothing wrong. As noted "wrong" is subjective.

The thread isn't designed to change minds, it's a pool of information for anyone who wants it, but it's largely for reference to save myself having to post the same things again when a new Geohot thread comes up.

[QUOTE="Dy_WarriorsXoXo"]The whole case makes me want to give Geo my parents credit cards... I would not actually do that (my parents would be very mad) but if I had a credit card (which are really hard to get without credit history) I would definatley help fight corporate greed by donating to Geo's defense. Sony included Linux in the PS3 and it is their fault if it makes the PS3 vulnerable to "hackers"... I do not even understand the whole dilemma here people have against Geo when this is a clear cut case of consumer rights.Twin-Blade

Is it just me, or does this post say a lot about GeoHotz supporters?

There's quite a lot that could be said about those blind SONY lovers who condem him, especially with quotes like : He should be imprisoned for life!!! He's scum!!! OMG, GO SONY!!!

He's not to blame for piracy, he not to blame for all the hackers on games like COD. He can't control other people, information on the other should be free. Should we condem Wikipedia for the VAST amount of potentially dangerous information it shares?

Dude didn't do anything wrong, TC. Giant posts with a ton of links aren't going to change anyone's mind, no matter what side of the debate they fall on.

DarkLink77

Legal questions aside, doing something that youknowwill facilitate, encourage and therefore increment piracy is wrong.

Nowhere near as wrong as some people make it seem (some people act like he has killed somebody or something like that), but it's definitely not right.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

Dude didn't do anything wrongJynxzor

Great thread, and I never saw that Geohotz was planning on posting the keys even before other OS was removed. because that seems to be the first thing Hotz supporters use as a reason.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

Dude didn't do anything wrong, TC. Giant posts with a ton of links aren't going to change anyone's mind, no matter what side of the debate they fall on.

IronBass

[QUOTE="Jynxzor"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

Dude didn't do anything wrongDarkLink77

[QUOTE="Twin-Blade"]

[QUOTE="Dy_WarriorsXoXo"]The whole case makes me want to give Geo my parents credit cards... I would not actually do that (my parents would be very mad) but if I had a credit card (which are really hard to get without credit history) I would definatley help fight corporate greed by donating to Geo's defense. Sony included Linux in the PS3 and it is their fault if it makes the PS3 vulnerable to "hackers"... I do not even understand the whole dilemma here people have against Geo when this is a clear cut case of consumer rights.-Snooze-

Is it just me, or does this post say a lot about GeoHotz supporters?

There's quite a lot that could be said about those blind SONY lovers who condem him, especially with quotes like : He should be imprisoned for life!!! He's scum!!! OMG, GO SONY!!!

He's not to blame for piracy, he not to blame for all the hackers on games like COD. He can't control other people, information on the other should be free. Should we condem Wikipedia for the VAST amount of potentially dangerous information it shares?

It's easier to point out foolish people when they're on the other side and ignore foolish people when they're on your side.

[QUOTE="Jynxzor"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

Dude didn't do anything wrongDarkLink77

So no one should ever have full access to any computer they own since piracy will inevitably be a result. Good to know.DarkLink77

There's a reason why "closed systems" are called that way. Besides, what exactly does "full access" on a gaming console means? Linux?

Besides, from "breaking the PS3 piracy protections" to "no one should ever have full access to anycomputer" there's a huge difference.

[QUOTE="-Snooze-"]

[QUOTE="Twin-Blade"]

Is it just me, or does this post say a lot about GeoHotz supporters?

hakanakumono

There's quite a lot that could be said about those blind SONY lovers who condem him, especially with quotes like : He should be imprisoned for life!!! He's scum!!! OMG, GO SONY!!!

He's not to blame for piracy, he not to blame for all the hackers on games like COD. He can't control other people, information on the other should be free. Should we condem Wikipedia for the VAST amount of potentially dangerous information it shares?

It's easier to point out foolish people when they're on the other side and ignore foolish people when they're on your side.

I'm on neither side.

Couldnt care less about Geo hotz, and I couldnt care less about a faceless multi billion dollor corporation, especially considering their last console was a pirates paradise, and somehow also one of the most, if not the most successfull in history.

Dude didn't do anything wrong, TC. Giant posts with a ton of links aren't going to change anyone's mind, no matter what side of the debate they fall on.

DarkLink77

Posting irrefutable factual evidence is useless? haha.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Jynxzor"] Thats up for debate really, he wouldn't be in court if the legality of his actions were not in question.

Animal-Mother

[QUOTE="Animal-Mother"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Sony doesn't actually care if they win the case. They just want to bankrupt the guy, and make an example of him. The genie's already out of the bottle, and you can't put it back.DarkLink77

Doing nothing is also an action in of itself that sends a message.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]So no one should ever have full access to any computer they own since piracy will inevitably be a result. Good to know.IronBass

Good thread.

Hopefully this will clear up some of the arguments done on here.

They're not gonna stop anything by suing him. You can't pull that knowledge off the internet. It's there to stay. Why the hell would they be this extreme about something they KNOW isn't going to change anything?

DarkLink77

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

[QUOTE="Animal-Mother"] I dunno, that seems just a tad bit extreme.hakanakumono

Doing nothing is also an action in of itself that sends a message.

[QUOTE="Twin-Blade"]

[QUOTE="Dy_WarriorsXoXo"]The whole case makes me want to give Geo my parents credit cards... I would not actually do that (my parents would be very mad) but if I had a credit card (which are really hard to get without credit history) I would definatley help fight corporate greed by donating to Geo's defense. Sony included Linux in the PS3 and it is their fault if it makes the PS3 vulnerable to "hackers"... I do not even understand the whole dilemma here people have against Geo when this is a clear cut case of consumer rights.-Snooze-

Is it just me, or does this post say a lot about GeoHotz supporters?

There's quite a lot that could be said about those blind SONY lovers who condem him, especially with quotes like : He should be imprisoned for life!!! He's scum!!! OMG, GO SONY!!!

He's not to blame for piracy, he not to blame for all the hackers on games like COD. He can't control other people, information on the other should be free. Should we condem Wikipedia for the VAST amount of potentially dangerous information it shares?

He doesn't have control over them no. The same way you don't have control over a pack of rabid dogs. If you open the cage & those dogs go off & attack stuff, you should be responsible. For the record, I don't really care what happens. My PS3 is for single player exclusives & I don't care about Sony's beef with some kid, but if asked who I think is in the wrong, it's the hacker.

I should be able to do anything I want with it that isn't illegal. DarkLink77

The DMCA establishes a claim right that one is not at liberty to circumvent protection measures.

[QUOTE="Animal-Mother"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Sony doesn't actually care if they win the case. They just want to bankrupt the guy, and make an example of him. The genie's already out of the bottle, and you can't put it back.DarkLink77

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

They're not gonna stop anything by suing him. You can't pull that knowledge off the internet. It's there to stay. Why the hell would they be this extreme about something they KNOW isn't going to change anything?

shinrabanshou

I don't know. Personally, I don't care. But if I buy a computer (Which is what the PS3 is), I should be able to do anything I want with it that isn't illegal. Opening the system up for homebrew isn't (or shouldn't be) illegal. Yes, piracy will follow, but you can't stop piracy. If people want your product for free badly enough, they will get it and there's nothing you can do to stop them.DarkLink77

"I should" is a non-argument. It means you have your own pre-conceptions of what every system should do, instead of the one we are actually talking about. Remember that the product maker has his own conceptions of what his product "should do". If you buy said product you're inherentlyaccepting those conceptions.

If you want to do anything you want with a system, buy a PC (and even PCs have certain restrictions). If you buy a PS3 but want to do whatever you want with it, then you simply made a mistake as a consumer.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] They're not gonna stop anything by suing him. You can't pull that knowledge off the internet. It's there to stay. Why the hell would they be this extreme about something they KNOW isn't going to change anything?

DarkLink77

Doing nothing is also an action in of itself that sends a message.

It isn't likely that Geohotz will try and pull something like this again, after the lawsuit. He's been the biggest thorn in Sony's side and doing this will be a victory for Sony in that regard.

It also sets a precedent, not legally, but for hackers to be wary of taking such reckless actions.

shinrabanshou - Based on your original post, Sony is right and GeoHotz is wrong. Your 'analysis' couldn't have been more one-sided. KC_Hokie

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]I should be able to do anything I want with it that isn't illegal. shinrabanshou

The DMCA establishes a claim right that one is not at liberty to circumvent protection measures.

shinrabanshou - Based on your original post, Sony is right and GeoHotz is wrong. Your 'analysis' couldn't have been more one-sided. KC_Hokie

Everything else is simply statements and links correcting misinformed claims.

You're free to post what you deem an equitable analysis, although I'm sure an argument ad hominem is easier than a real argument.

[QUOTE="-Snooze-"]

[QUOTE="Twin-Blade"]

Is it just me, or does this post say a lot about GeoHotz supporters?

Twin-Blade

There's quite a lot that could be said about those blind SONY lovers who condem him, especially with quotes like : He should be imprisoned for life!!! He's scum!!! OMG, GO SONY!!!

He's not to blame for piracy, he not to blame for all the hackers on games like COD. He can't control other people, information on the other should be free. Should we condem Wikipedia for the VAST amount of potentially dangerous information it shares?

He doesn't have control over them no. The same way you don't have control over a pack of rabid dogs. If you open the cage & those dogs go off & attack stuff, you should be responsible.

Except that's not even similar to what he's done.

What he's done is made public a way to do what you wish with the PS3. People will do illegal things, no doubt, some will use it for more noble, or less harmful things.

Should the fella who discovered Alcohol be held accountable for the COUNTLESS deaths a year, due to abusing it? Of course not, nor shoudl geo be held accountable for the countless people who will abuse his method.

Perhaps if devs focused less on people pirating their titles, and actually making them worth purchasing new, less people would pirate them. After playing GOW3 I almost sympathise with pirates (4 hours of garbage for £40? No thanks)

Should information not be free?

shinrabanshou - Based on your original post, Sony is right and GeoHotz is wrong. Your 'analysis' couldn't have been more one-sided. KC_Hokie

He provided evidence that suggests that Sony is correct and that many of the claims about Geohotz have been proven incorrect.

Try and spin "people deserve free games if they hack their console" into him being anti-piracy. Go ahead.

Try and spin him planning to use the Other OS to release the keys as "the keys were a last resort because they removed Other OS!"

If you think the facts provided suggest something different, then go ahead. Spin away. Reality just so happens to support his argument and invalidate some of the arguments that have been made.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] I don't know. Personally, I don't care. But if I buy a computer (Which is what the PS3 is), I should be able to do anything I want with it that isn't illegal. Opening the system up for homebrew isn't (or shouldn't be) illegal. Yes, piracy will follow, but you can't stop piracy. If people want your product for free badly enough, they will get it and there's nothing you can do to stop them.IronBass

"I should" is a non-argument. It means you have your own pre-conceptions of what every system should do, instead of the one we are actually talking about. Remember that the product maker has his own conceptions of what his product "should do". If you buy said product you're inherentlyaccepting those conceptions.

If you want to do anything you want with a system, buy a PC (and even PCs have certain restrictions). If you buy a PS3 but want to do whatever you want with it, then you simply made a mistake as a consumer.

How do people actually come to the conclusion that this guy did nothing wrong? He is being sued and in court....what does that imply? He made Sony's security keys public...in the process encouraging piracy. If he was against it..he would have kept those for himself! People need to stop riding on his ****. Stop boosting a criminals ego. gsus!

He is also an attention seeking idiot! His videos back that up!

What sucks is the people that get affected by the hacks.

That's not cool.

All these hacks have done for me is make my online experience worse.

3 of my friends were playing COD4 and they lost all their stats due to large increase of hacks.

I don't even want to play COD4 online on my main account anymore because of this.

I'll just buy COD4 for PC now.

Sucks though. The ripple effects of these hacks really have no good.

I hate a person who knows and realises what these hacks will do if he releases them. I hate when he lies saying I didn't know that would happen. He's knows god damn well what will happen and he doesn't care he just wants attention and more fame.

No. If I buy a hybrid and turn it into a race car, I just completed destroyed the car manufacturer's idea of what their product "should do."DarkLink77

How do you know that? I've never seen something in the (plenty) of information I got with my car that says "you are not allowed to do it".

Contrary to cars, game consoles come with (very clear) indications of the product maker's conditions (the ToU and licensing agreements).

Meh, it's a dumb law. Having full access to something you buy should not be illegal.DarkLink77

However, balance should be struck between the rights of content creators to generate gains from their creations and those that consume said creations.

Most products are bought with intended purpose, and are only bound to provide you with intended purpose.

And regardless, it is the law as it stands.

Im still with Sony on this. As Geohotz knew things will spew up if he released the codes. Yet he did. If he's so smart then why did he release the codes? Because of popularity and thinking that if Sony attack him, he said he would easily win this fight.He wasn't worried at all. He honestly didnt care. He thought his popularity and past victorys would help him win.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Doing nothing is also an action in of itself that sends a message.

hakanakumono

It isn't likely that Geohotz will try and pull something like this again, after the lawsuit. He's been the biggest thorn in Sony's side and doing this will be a victory for Sony in that regard.

It also sets a precedent, not legally, but for hackers to be wary of taking such reckless actions.

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]shinrabanshou - Based on your original post, Sony is right and GeoHotz is wrong. Your 'analysis' couldn't have been more one-sided. hakanakumono

He provided evidence that suggests that Sony is correct and that many of the claims about Geohotz have been proven incorrect.

Try and spin "people deserve free games if they hack their console" into him being anti-piracy. Go ahead.

Try and spin him planning to use the Other OS to release the keys as "the keys were a last resort because they removed Other OS!"

If you think the facts provided suggest something different, then go ahead. Spin away. Reality just so happens to support his argument and invalidate some of the arguments that have been made.

I was wondering if you were gonna make a thread regarding this. :P

I've read most of your posts on the situation, and thought to myself, "Man, it would be nice to have all of this info in one place".

Now, I'll actually read the OP. :P

shinrabanshou - Based on your original post, Sony is right and GeoHotz is wrong. Your 'analysis' couldn't have been more one-sided. KC_Hokie

Its been established in the 15+ threads that Shinra is not for what Hotz did. He cannot say Hotz is wrong or even sony is wrong. That is where the court will coem to play. He does have that slight slant but thats natural. In the end, we will have to wait and see. Its really gonna depend on how the court feels on this. We are deep in a weird grey area with multiple nations, multiple states, cross country lawsuit, with all kinds of twist and plots. I know one thing... I have my popcorn ready