Jeez, the 360 is sure being bullied around this playground

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jyoung312

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#51 jyoung312
Member since 2003 • 4971 Posts

[QUOTE="MJPK"]

[QUOTE="bphan"]

People can talk. At the end of the day, the PS3 is and will continue to always be in last place.

bphan

ok and how do u know this?

Because there is no way Sony can make up a 10 million difference in the several remaining years of this gen. The only way is if Xbox 360 stops selling entirely.

It's not a 10 million gap it's a 7 million and shrinking faster due to the slim and the growing sales in Japan. How many of those 360 are also double dippers due to RROD?
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Zaibach

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#52 Zaibach
Member since 2007 • 13466 Posts

All Im saying is this is not even close to the extreme hate the PS3 got when it first came out up until early 2008.TintedEyes
too true man, times were brutal if you had a ps3 back then. it wasnt just here in sw, all over the interwebs people were buing ps3s just to smash them and put it n youtue.

oh and youtube, everyone remembers the grill jokes, paper weight, doorstop, movie player etc etc.

if you were partof the anti ps3 mob back then, accept your ownage like a man, dont get all coy and proffessional "your taking it too seriously". the shoe is trully on the other foot and no one knows when it will turn again so the cows are gonna MILK it!!!

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SonyIsh6Fotta

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#53 SonyIsh6Fotta
Member since 2007 • 658 Posts

SMH at you calling your 360 he, is it a person? I see the problem, you have made it a real person in your own mind, so you feelbad about the treatment it's been getting lately. Back on topic, I guess you weren't here back in 07-08, it wasn't a good time to be a cow, trust me.

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Phoenix534

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#54 Phoenix534
Member since 2008 • 17774 Posts

[QUOTE="bphan"]

[QUOTE="MJPK"]

ok and how do u know this?

jyoung312

Because there is no way Sony can make up a 10 million difference in the several remaining years of this gen. The only way is if Xbox 360 stops selling entirely.

It's not a 10 million gap it's a 7 million and shrinking faster due to the slim and the growing sales in Japan. How many of those 360 are also double dippers due to RROD?

I'm not the only one who is brave enough to point that out!?

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bphan

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#55 bphan
Member since 2005 • 1666 Posts

[QUOTE="bphan"]

[QUOTE="MJPK"]

ok and how do u know this?

jyoung312

Because there is no way Sony can make up a 10 million difference in the several remaining years of this gen. The only way is if Xbox 360 stops selling entirely.

It's not a 10 million gap it's a 7 million and shrinking faster due to the slim and the growing sales in Japan. How many of those 360 are also double dippers due to RROD?

Nahh, its 10 million, 11 million if you get recent data. You can say that multiple 360s are from double purchases. I can something equally ridiculous like many PS3 owners only bought it for bluray. A sale is a sale. Period.

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TintedEyes

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#56 TintedEyes
Member since 2009 • 4769 Posts

[QUOTE="jyoung312"][QUOTE="bphan"]

Because there is no way Sony can make up a 10 million difference in the several remaining years of this gen. The only way is if Xbox 360 stops selling entirely.

bphan

It's not a 10 million gap it's a 7 million and shrinking faster due to the slim and the growing sales in Japan. How many of those 360 are also double dippers due to RROD?

Nahh, its 10 million, 11 million if you get recent data. You can say that multiple 360s are from double purchases. I can something equally ridiculous like many PS3 owners only bought it for bluray. A sale is a sale. Period.

11 million? Uhh it was 7 million at GameScom MS announced 31 million Sony announced 23.8 million Your telling me that even though the Slim just released and is selling alot, that the lead jumped to 11 million?
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stayhigh1

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#57 stayhigh1
Member since 2008 • 724 Posts
Oh, and 360 fans were just of guilty of it 2006-2007. Do you not remember all the PS3 hate back then? The tables have turned and now PS3 fans are getting their sweet revenge.Messiahbolical-
its obvious everyone know the PS3 will come up on top..Microsoft maybe won the battle but not the war..Sony just got to many first party killer games while Microsoft is still tryin to buy DLC or time exclusive.lol..
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nervmeister

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#58 nervmeister
Member since 2005 • 15377 Posts

Oh, and 360 fans were just of guilty of it 2006-2007. Do you not remember all the PS3 hate back then? The tables have turned and now PS3 fans are getting their sweet revenge.Messiahbolical-
And before 2006-2007, in the PS2 era, all cows did was gloat and bashed everything else. The point is revenge is a vicious unending cycle here, my friend.

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stayhigh1

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#59 stayhigh1
Member since 2008 • 724 Posts
Sony sold at least more then 1 million world wide so far within two to three weeks..and its continue to sell at a great amount.. they are really closing the gap if this continue the PS3 will eventually beat the 360..3Lemmings known that the PS3 is better and over all system to purchase..and if they want to support crap let them..lol..A sale is a sale to them..hah..
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Messiahbolical-

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#60 Messiahbolical-
Member since 2009 • 5670 Posts

[QUOTE="Messiahbolical-"]Oh, and 360 fans were just of guilty of it 2006-2007. Do you not remember all the PS3 hate back then? The tables have turned and now PS3 fans are getting their sweet revenge.nervmeister

And before 2006-2007, in the PS2 era, all cows did was gloat and bashed everything else. The point is revenge is a vicious unending cycle here, my friend.

True. :P Every faction enjoys their time on top while it lasts though. I kinda do feel bad for Sheep lately though... all they really have to talk about anymore is sales and games coming in like 10 months. :/
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skinny_man_69

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#61 skinny_man_69
Member since 2005 • 5147 Posts

SMH at you calling your 360 he, is it a person? I see the problem, you have made it a real person in your own mind, so you feelbad about the treatment it's been getting lately. Back on topic, I guess you weren't here back in 07-08, it wasn't a good time to be a cow, trust me.

SonyIsh6Fotta
Yup, that was my problem. I had confused my 360 with an actual person. Wow, you are so very intelligent. Thank you so much for deterring my path of delusion and sending me towards enlightenment. I guess I should stop talking to my computer too huh? I had better write this day down as you have truly changed the way I think... it is called personification Confucius
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GreyFoXX4

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#62 GreyFoXX4
Member since 2008 • 3612 Posts

TC you do realise that in 06 and 07 the ps3 was being bashed for not having good games right. But now lemmings state that AA and A games are great and should count all of a sudden. When back then the ps3 and cows couldn't even think of using AA and A games as a tool.

And also its just that us cows knew and understood the situation. Such as MS literally has what like 2 or 3 dev teams, and got rid of like 2 teams. And lemmings kept right on, when we knew that Sony is sitting there with what 8-11 1st party and 2nd party dev teams, just fixing to get onto a roll with giving us ps3 owners great games. Not only great games but games that will start overlapping each other time wise during releases. Then to throw multiplate games into the situation, we knew all along that the ps3 was the console to own. All the while lemmings was frantically hanging onto 06 and 07. You know this to be true, if not then ask yourself what new ip's have MS brought to the gaming world this gen.

Its just that the time is now that all of us cows have been waiting for, and I'll patients and faith is being rewarded after listening to the thoughtless bashings and claims of lemmings. A sleeping giant has been awakened and that is the Playstation.

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mitu123

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#63 mitu123
Member since 2006 • 155290 Posts

Basically the roles have been reversed.

I knew Gamespot would give in to the dark side after a while.

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skinny_man_69

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#64 skinny_man_69
Member since 2005 • 5147 Posts
[QUOTE="GreyFoXX4"]

TC you do realise that in 06 and 07 the ps3 was being bashed for not having good games right. But now lemmings state that AA and A games are great and should count all of a sudden. When back then the ps3 and cows couldn't even think of using AA and A games as a tool.

And also its just that us cows knew and understood the situation. Such as MS literally has what like 2 or 3 dev teams, and got rid of like 2 teams. And lemmings kept right on, when we knew that Sony is sitting there with what 8-11 1st party and 2nd party dev teams, just fixing to get onto a roll with giving us ps3 owners great games. Not only great games but games that will start overlapping each other time wise during releases. Then to throw multiplate games into the situation, we knew all along that the ps3 was the console to own. All the while lemmings was frantically hanging onto 06 and 07. You know this to be true, if not then ask yourself what new ip's have MS brought to the gaming world this gen.

Its just that the time is now that all of us cows have been waiting for, and I'll patients and faith is being rewarded after listening to the thoughtless bashings and claims of lemmings. A sleeping giant has been awakened and that is the Playstation.

I realize that the PS3 was mistreated back in those times, but I don't feel that the whole "eye-for-an-eye" technique will work on this one. The PS3 is certainly on a role, I have already stated that as a fact, but that doesn't mean that the 360 is a dead system, which seems to be what a lot of System Wars is marketing it as. Also, I asked myself the question of what new Ip's Microsoft has added this gen and Gears chainsawed my brain in half
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tbolt76

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#65 tbolt76
Member since 2008 • 987 Posts

There is two good reasons.

For one, all of the high rated exclusives and great games that have been released for the PS3, none of them have staying power. Sales are good the first month or 2 and then they are forgotten (check the sales of KZ2, Infamous etc.).

Secondly, if you look back at most of the PS3 exclusives, they don't, with a few exceptions, have good replay value. So after eight hours or so of playing "teh gr8est game evah", the fanboys are back trolling the forums.

For all of the great games the PS3 has, either they are niche (LBP, MGS4) have low replay value (UC, iNfamous) or too small communities for sustained online play (KZ2, Socom).

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TheArmyGuy48

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#66 TheArmyGuy48
Member since 2009 • 858 Posts

I have noticed that within the past few months that is has become almost a staple in System Wars for every other thread to somehow hate on the 360. It is true, the 360 hasn't had the greatest year and this year is clearly the year of the PS3 (inFamous, Killzone 2, Demon's Souls, Uncharted 2 etc) but honestly, I dont see why the machine has suddenly become the target of rampant and vehement fanboy remarks. I get that this is System Wars and this is the place where debates of console supremacy occur, but it as if the 360 can do no right and any success that is made is instantly discredited (ODST is only an expansion, Forza 3 demo looks like garbage, 360 has no games this year or next year etc) I am not sure if this is just blind fanboyism from cows (who have seemed to influx so greatly in numbers within the past few months I would say they now outnumber lemmings and sheep combined) or it is now an accepted fact that the 360 is no longer seen as a successful console. I just feel bad for the poor machine because, I will admit, it is my favourite console this generation (although I have been playing my PS3 more recently) but I do not believe he deserves such punishment. I would just like to understand where all this hate began and why every other topic is either bashing on 360's lack of exclusives, PS3 having already won this generation and/or 360's hardware failure rate (which has been posted so often I am surprised that it isn't common knowledge)

P.S. Another observation I have made is that although there are MANY threads bashing the 360, two-thirds of the replies seem to actually be rational rebuttals. Why don't these numbers reflect the qualities of the topics being posted, instead of the consistent level of garbage posted by fanboys. Why can this System Wars community not have intellectual arguments instead of spewing incoherent logic and then using that against a system?

Signed, A Concerned Game Lover :(

skinny_man_69

Well what do you think we had to go through for the last friggin year, listening to "the PS3 gon die, it gon be discontinued by sony" "They make a loss on every PS3 sold", "Sony is going to stop production on PS3s"(even though they had like 10 AAA titles comming out for it:roll: ). Now its your turn. You couldnt even click on N4g, or System Wars without reading some propaganda about how sony is selling PS3s at a loss, and sony is going to end production on PS3s (even though sony kept stating that ps3 was set to be profitable by 2010)

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JuarN18

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#67 JuarN18
Member since 2007 • 4981 Posts

who cares?? this is just... a playground

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jyoung312

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#68 jyoung312
Member since 2003 • 4971 Posts

There is two good reasons.

For one, all of the high rated exclusives and great games that have been released for the PS3, none of them have staying power. Sales are good the first month or 2 and then they are forgotten (check the sales of KZ2, Infamous etc.).

Secondly, if you look back at most of the PS3 exclusives, they don't, with a few exceptions, have good replay value. So after eight hours or so of playing "teh gr8est game evah", the fanboys are back trolling the forums.

For all of the great games the PS3 has, either they are niche (LBP, MGS4) have low replay value (UC, iNfamous) or too small communities for sustained online play (KZ2, Socom).

tbolt76
You do realize that LBP and Uncharted 1 had sales legs. Uncharted 1 had really slow opening month for sales something like 100k in US but it eventually got to 2.5~ million bc word of mouth. Maybe 360 exclusives such as Gears and Halo sell better bc that's all the 360 has.
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dream431ca

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#69 dream431ca
Member since 2003 • 10165 Posts

Why is the 360 getting bullied? Because the games this year were mediocre at best.

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Phoenix534

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#70 Phoenix534
Member since 2008 • 17774 Posts

Why is the 360 getting bullied? Because the games this year were mediocre at best.

dream431ca

You are correct.

You are correct!!!

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Riverwolf007

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#71 Riverwolf007
Member since 2005 • 26023 Posts

let people brag it was a loooong launch, they deserve to blow off some steam

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205212669269561485377169522720

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#72 205212669269561485377169522720
Member since 2005 • 14458 Posts

[QUOTE="Messiahbolical-"]Oh, and 360 fans were just of guilty of it 2006-2007. Do you not remember all the PS3 hate back then? The tables have turned and now PS3 fans are getting their sweet revenge.skinny_man_69
See that is what I mean. Sweet revenge. Why do people take their consoles so seriously in the terms of sales and exclusivity. Did they make these consoles? Are their paychecks reliant on whether or not their system or the games on said system sell better than another? I wish people would just calm down and be happy for each other's preferred gaming devices. I don't mind a little competition, but when you see people saying stuff like "The PS3 or 360 version runs 30 fps while the other version runs 60! Guess that means the other system is garbage and should accept ownage!" it just bothers me. I mean, who cares? Play the version that you can and be happy. That is the world I want to live in... one day

And why are you taking this way too seriously? Ever thought about saying THIS in 07? Nope, if I remember well, that year was the year many were doing the complete opposite. You know why Sony fanboys are so pissed off and other mean things I don't wanna say is because of you lems who kept picking on them.

There's no reason to fight over something so small but this is like trying explain 2 children to stop fighting. Also tbh, I'm enjoying this because it's funny to see how people react to "Hey what's your problem?" and trying to be all reasonable and "intelligent", After like nearly 2 years of torture they gave them. It's like high school seriously.:P

In the end no one wins anyways but this is what SW is, pulling eachothers hair till someone caves.

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12345678ew

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#73 12345678ew
Member since 2008 • 2353 Posts

Leave if you dont dont like it, SW is meant to be like this and lets face it.. 360 have no games.

fire-dragon-90
ICWUDT lolz but it's true... lol you know you've won when your only lemming friend starts fighting people and getting strong instead of playing video games... his 360 is broken and he isn't even sending it in for a fix
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DealRogers

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#74 DealRogers
Member since 2005 • 4589 Posts
Oh, and 360 fans were just of guilty of it 2006-2007. Do you not remember all the PS3 hate back then? The tables have turned and now PS3 fans are getting their sweet revenge.Messiahbolical-
Yeah most people seem to have forgotten those days.
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MizFitAwesome

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#75 MizFitAwesome
Member since 2009 • 2745 Posts

[QUOTE="Messiahbolical-"]Oh, and 360 fans were just of guilty of it 2006-2007. Do you not remember all the PS3 hate back then? The tables have turned and now PS3 fans are getting their sweet revenge.DealRogers
Yeah most people seem to have forgotten those days.

You mean like after the 360 launch when the cowscalled the 360 a failure because it only had 1 AAAE and then commited group suicide when the PS3 launched with 0 AAA's?

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battalionwars13

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#76 battalionwars13
Member since 2007 • 1264 Posts

Leave if you dont dont like it, SW is meant to be like this and lets face it.. 360 have no games.

fire-dragon-90
Have no games? lol It has plenty of games.
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Stevo_the_gamer

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#77 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 50173 Posts
Every system has been bullied by the iPhone this year!
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spike6566

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#78 spike6566
Member since 2008 • 1630 Posts
blame MS for not having great exclusives this year.
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LOXO7

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#79 LOXO7
Member since 2008 • 5595 Posts

Systems are at our disposal for criticisms. Just Cons stick out more than Pros. If I could sum up the 360's lifetime in one word it would be Broken.

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Nike_Air

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#80 Nike_Air
Member since 2006 • 19737 Posts
  • 360 = Scut Farkus
  • Wii = Grover Dill (scut's toadie)
  • ps3= Ralphie Parker !

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MizFitAwesome

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#81 MizFitAwesome
Member since 2009 • 2745 Posts

  • 360 = Scut Farkus
  • Wii = Grover Dill (scut's toadie)
  • ps3= Ralphie Parker !

Nike_Air

Are you saying you'll shoot your eye out with a PS3?...

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jyoung312

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#82 jyoung312
Member since 2003 • 4971 Posts
I think Sony's 1st party studios are starting to pay off bc it means that the sony can roll out quality titles and the competition can't keep up, especially when MS has so few studios and can't keep 3rd party exclusives. MS should have bought studios instead of buying 3rd party exclusives or exclusive dlc that doesn't stay exclusive very long.
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WilliamRLBaker

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#83 WilliamRLBaker
Member since 2006 • 28915 Posts

its no worse then what the ps3 was receiving just last year.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#84 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 50173 Posts

its no worse then what the ps3 was receiving just last year.

WilliamRLBaker

Errr. What? :?

PS3: 1 AAAAE, 2 AAAEs, and 2 AAEs (2008 )

Xbox 360: 1 AAAE (2009)

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xsubtownerx

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#85 xsubtownerx
Member since 2007 • 10705 Posts

Leave if you dont dont like it, SW is meant to be like this and lets face it.. 360 have no games.

fire-dragon-90
Actually, the 360 has about 200 more games than the PS3's library. :)
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Stevo_the_gamer

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#86 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 50173 Posts
[QUOTE="fire-dragon-90"]

Leave if you dont dont like it, SW is meant to be like this and lets face it.. 360 have no games.

xsubtownerx
Actually, the 360 has about 200 more games than the PS3's library. :)

300 actually. :)
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xsubtownerx

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#87 xsubtownerx
Member since 2007 • 10705 Posts
[QUOTE="xsubtownerx"][QUOTE="fire-dragon-90"]

Leave if you dont dont like it, SW is meant to be like this and lets face it.. 360 have no games.

Stevo_the_gamer
Actually, the 360 has about 200 more games than the PS3's library. :)

300 actually. :)

Close enough. :P
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SolidTy

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#88 SolidTy
Member since 2005 • 49991 Posts

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]

its no worse then what the ps3 was receiving just last year.

Stevo_the_gamer

Errr. What? :?

PS3: 1 AAAAE, 2 AAAEs, and 2 AAEs (2008 )

Xbox 360: 1 AAAE (2009)

Maybe he just posted some words?I don't understand what's going on...

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GreyFoXX4

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#89 GreyFoXX4
Member since 2008 • 3612 Posts
[QUOTE="tbolt76"]

There is two good reasons.

For one, all of the high rated exclusives and great games that have been released for the PS3, none of them have staying power. Sales are good the first month or 2 and then they are forgotten (check the sales of KZ2, Infamous etc.).

Secondly, if you look back at most of the PS3 exclusives, they don't, with a few exceptions, have good replay value. So after eight hours or so of playing "teh gr8est game evah", the fanboys are back trolling the forums.

For all of the great games the PS3 has, either they are niche (LBP, MGS4) have low replay value (UC, iNfamous) or too small communities for sustained online play (KZ2, Socom).

Sales: Uncharted 2.5 million, MotorStorm 3.5 million, GT5p 3 million, Rfom 3.5 million, mgs4 4.2 million, LBP 2.4 million, KZ2 2 million, R2 1.6 million, R&C:tod 1.5 million, Infamous 900,000, Socom 888,000. And some of those sales haven't been updated for quite some time actually like Socom has been at that number for about 6-8 months if I'm correct. VGchartz don't show when their numbers were last updated anymore. Halo3, 10 million, Geow 5 million, Gears2 5 million, Forza 2 4 million, Fable 2 3 million, L4D 2 million, Mass Effect 2 million, Dead Rising 1.7 million, Halo Wars 1.5 million, Viva Pinata 1.5 million. Ok only Halo 3 really stands out in comparison to Ps3 games sales. And if anything the ps3 sales look pretty awesome across the board when you think of the user base size of the ps3 compared to the 360. So don't bring game sales up in this lol. And your last statement well is just not even worth talking about. Especially when you end it saying can't sustain a online community and mention Socom or even KZ2. I now know of 7 guys that haven't touched their 360 for literally a year since BUYING a ps3 just for Socom.
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Malta_1980

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#90 Malta_1980
Member since 2008 • 11890 Posts

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]

its no worse then what the ps3 was receiving just last year.

SolidTy

Errr. What? :?

PS3: 1 AAAAE, 2 AAAEs, and 2 AAEs (2008 )

Xbox 360: 1 AAAE (2009)

Maybe he just posted some words?I don't understand what's going on...

Maybe WilliamRLBaker was refering to last year's bullying PS3 was receiving compared to what the 360 is getting this year..

TC, I've been in these boards for a long time and trust me being a PS3 fan back since its launch till mid 2008 was a hard job lol Constant bashing on practically everything related to the console / games (lack of games)..

Now with the PS3's install base being larger its normal having more PS3 fans in these boards and with PS3 having tackled all the issues on which it was hardly bashed in the past its not that hard being a PS3 fan nowadays :P

Lets not forget that PS3 was bashed for

1) Its price - now its at a much more reasonable price-tag

2) Lack of quality exclusives / multipalts - now its getting many great exclusives & multiplats are of equal quality compared to 360 (just minor differences)

3) PSN - the service got better & better since PS3's launch

So considering PS3 is also a much more reliable console compared to 360, most PS3 haters ran out of ammunition while Ps3 fans got more confident and instead of just defending their beloved console are now in a position to even 'attack' other systems :)

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Floppy_Jim

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#91 Floppy_Jim
Member since 2007 • 25933 Posts
It's having an easy time around here compared to the PS3 in 2007 and Wii last year. Every system has it's weak year though.
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Rockman999

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#92 Rockman999
Member since 2005 • 7507 Posts

maybe its retribution for 06-07 or maybe the lack of games or maybe now that Sony is putting out good games the cows now have the testicular fortitude to bash the once almighty 360

Thessassin

This guy is right.

Maybe WilliamRLBaker was refering to last year's bullying PS3 was receiving compared to what the 360 is getting this year..

Malta_1980

I wouldn't give it much thought, that person is a huge lemster.

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WilliamRLBaker

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#93 WilliamRLBaker
Member since 2006 • 28915 Posts

TC you do realise that in 06 and 07 the ps3 was being bashed for not having good games right. But now lemmings state that AA and A games are great and should count all of a sudden. When back then the ps3 and cows couldn't even think of using AA and A games as a tool.

And also its just that us cows knew and understood the situation. Such as MS literally has what like 2 or 3 dev teams, and got rid of like 2 teams. And lemmings kept right on, when we knew that Sony is sitting there with what 8-11 1st party and 2nd party dev teams, just fixing to get onto a roll with giving us ps3 owners great games. Not only great games but games that will start overlapping each other time wise during releases. Then to throw multiplate games into the situation, we knew all along that the ps3 was the console to own. All the while lemmings was frantically hanging onto 06 and 07. You know this to be true, if not then ask yourself what new ip's have MS brought to the gaming world this gen.

Its just that the time is now that all of us cows have been waiting for, and I'll patients and faith is being rewarded after listening to the thoughtless bashings and claims of lemmings. A sleeping giant has been awakened and that is the Playstation.

GreyFoXX4
lol wow thats sad, how you make out the cows didn't use the same defenses as lemmings...but then agian to you the ps3 is christ reborn..
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Scoob64

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#94 Scoob64
Member since 2008 • 2635 Posts

Leave if you dont dont like it, SW is meant to be like this and lets face it.. 360 have no games.

fire-dragon-90

"360 have no games"...

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skrat_01

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#95 skrat_01
Member since 2007 • 33767 Posts
One hell of a chunk of text. This is system wars. hate happens.
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Asim90

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#97 Asim90
Member since 2005 • 3692 Posts

The Wii and PS3 have received far more hate than the 360.

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WilliamRLBaker

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#98 WilliamRLBaker
Member since 2006 • 28915 Posts

The Wii and PS3 have received far more hate than the 360.

Asim90

hmm i think its really about equal, now the cows are just getting started with the hate in the end.

there have all ways been more cows thats a simple fact, and they are comming out of the woodwork after the 3 or so years of constant flops and low sales.

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Chrome-

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#99 Chrome-
Member since 2009 • 1744 Posts
Only on these forums anywhere else people don't seem to care.
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InfinityMugen

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#100 InfinityMugen
Member since 2007 • 3905 Posts

Were you around 2006-2007? The PS3 was basically the nerd getting wedgied and swirlied around here.