Joystiq reviewer gets attacked on amazon

  • 75 results
  • 1
  • 2

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for super600
super600

33161

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#1 super600  Moderator
Member since 2007 • 33161 Posts

A couple of weeks ago a Joystiq reviewer bashed conduit 2 to death and awarded the game a 1/5. In his review he gave out a link to his book the Ruby Dragon. HVS thought it would be funny to bash his book once they all have fully read it.HVS fans may have also rewarded the book a 1/5 score too in retaliation against the reviewers's review.Do you think HVS's attack against the reviewer was justified?

http://ca.kotaku.com/5804089/author-of-negative-conduit-2-review-becomes-target-of-studios-ire-his-novel-attacked-on-amazon#comments

Avatar image for Twin-Blade
Twin-Blade

6806

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#2 Twin-Blade
Member since 2005 • 6806 Posts

Haven't played the Conduit 2, nor do I plan to, but this gets a smile out of me for some reason.

Avatar image for Shirokishi_
Shirokishi_

11206

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#3 Shirokishi_
Member since 2009 • 11206 Posts

Very mature HVS.... very...

Avatar image for fueled-system
fueled-system

6529

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#4 fueled-system
Member since 2008 • 6529 Posts

thats pathetic of them. It is only an opinion. Some people just do not get it but whatever. The score was kinda on the low end though

You don't see developers or companies going out there and trying to get people fired because they gave a low score for your crappy game despite buying a ton of ad space there

Avatar image for super600
super600

33161

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#5 super600  Moderator
Member since 2007 • 33161 Posts

thats pathetic of them. It is only an opinion. Some people just do not get it but whatever. The score was kinda on the low end though even if it is a bad game a 1....

You don't see developers or companies going out there and trying to get people fired because they gave a low review for your crappy game despite buying a ton of ad space there

fueled-system

Still the reviewer shouldn't have linked his book. Anyway like I said before the HVS employees planned to read the book before bashing it unlike some parts of their fanbase that were anger at the reviewer.They had every right to attack an unfinished review on the game.

Avatar image for MrSelf-Destruct
MrSelf-Destruct

13400

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#6 MrSelf-Destruct
Member since 2010 • 13400 Posts
Was it justified? Not at all. The guy did his job and then they just did something petty to get revenge. That's something Anon would do.
Avatar image for Twin-Blade
Twin-Blade

6806

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#7 Twin-Blade
Member since 2005 • 6806 Posts

thats pathetic of them. It is only an opinion. Some people just do not get it but whatever. The score was kinda on the low end though

You don't see developers or companies going out there and trying to get people fired because they gave a low score for your crappy game despite buying a ton of ad space there

fueled-system

Ever heard of a guy called... Oh..

Avatar image for super600
super600

33161

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#8 super600  Moderator
Member since 2007 • 33161 Posts

Was it justified? Not at all. The guy did his job and then they just did something petty to get revenge. That's something Anon would do. MrSelf-Destruct

Still it was not good that the guy had to compare the game to an N64 game and shove a link of his book down people faces.I actually thought what HVS did was kinda immature and funny too even though they actually promised to review the book fairly unlike some parts of their fanbase.His review sounded like a poor troll attempt and hebarely even touched the multiplayer.

Avatar image for ChubbyGuy40
ChubbyGuy40

26442

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#9 ChubbyGuy40
Member since 2007 • 26442 Posts

Thats actually kinda funny :P

Conduit 2 isn't 1/5 bad, more like 3/5. Very average game.

Avatar image for super600
super600

33161

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#10 super600  Moderator
Member since 2007 • 33161 Posts

Thats actually kinda funny :P

Conduit 2 isn't 1/5 bad, more like 3/5. Very average game.

ChubbyGuy40

The reviewer deserved it even though HVS and some parts of their fanbase should have backed off from giving the book 1/5 scores.

Avatar image for MrSelf-Destruct
MrSelf-Destruct

13400

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#11 MrSelf-Destruct
Member since 2010 • 13400 Posts
Was it justified? Not at all. The guy did his job and then they just did something petty to get revenge. That's something Anon would do.

[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"]Was it justified? Not at all. The guy did his job and then they just did something petty to get revenge. That's something Anon would do. super600

Still it was not good that the guy had to compare the game to an N64 game and shove a link of his book down people faces.I actually thought what HVS did was kinda immature and funny too even though they actually promised to review the book fairly unlike some parts of their fanbase.

I agree his review was pretty over the top, but you can't completely begrudge a person for being passionate about their work - especially when it involves their opinions. No matter how he put it he obviously hated the game and the score would have been the same. In the end he was still just doing his job. What they did was just flat out attacked him because they were butthurt over the way he felt about their game. Maybe they should have got on Gamespot and started giving themselves bad reviews for making a game that everyone didn't fall head over heels in love with. It was petty of them, and totally wrong. And even if they did all go and actually read his book their bias would certainly have gotten in the way of them giving it a fair shake, so I don't see how that would have helped...
Avatar image for meatgrinderz
meatgrinderz

1329

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#12 meatgrinderz
Member since 2010 • 1329 Posts

Whether they hated his review or not, it's not very professional to target his book leaving bad reviews. Looks very juvenile and bad on them.

Avatar image for super600
super600

33161

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#13 super600  Moderator
Member since 2007 • 33161 Posts

Was it justified? Not at all. The guy did his job and then they just did something petty to get revenge. That's something Anon would do. [QUOTE="super600"]

[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"]Was it justified? Not at all. The guy did his job and then they just did something petty to get revenge. That's something Anon would do. MrSelf-Destruct

Still it was not good that the guy had to compare the game to an N64 game and shove a link of his book down people faces.I actually thought what HVS did was kinda immature and funny too even though they actually promised to review the book fairly unlike some parts of their fanbase.

I agree his review was pretty over the top, but you can't completely begrudge a person for being passionate about their work - especially when it involves their opinions. No matter how he put it he obviously hated the game and the score would have been the same. In the end he was still just doing his job. What they did was just flat out attacked him because they were butthurt over the way he felt about their game. Maybe they should have got on Gamespot and started giving themselves bad reviews for making a game that everyone didn't fall head over heels in love with. It was petty of them, and totally wrong. And even if they did all go and actually read his book their bias would certainly have gotten in the way of them giving it a fair shake, so I don't see how that would have helped...

Actually I heard the review was unfinished and the guy barely touched the multiplayer.

Avatar image for nintendoboy16
nintendoboy16

42242

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 44

User Lists: 14

#14 nintendoboy16
Member since 2007 • 42242 Posts
Wow, HVS! Butthurt much?
Avatar image for super600
super600

33161

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#16 super600  Moderator
Member since 2007 • 33161 Posts

Quality reviews are not what I think of when I think of Joystiq, but this is still a childish and unprofessional move by HVS.

Slashkice

Yeah! I agree. I also heard some of the reviews on Amazon could be from the actual HVS fanbase.

Avatar image for SaltyMeatballs
SaltyMeatballs

25165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#17 SaltyMeatballs
Member since 2009 • 25165 Posts

Very mature HVS.... very...

Shirokishi_

The reviewer deserves it if you ask me. Not a great game but HVS deserve some respect, definitely a step up for the Wii's online.

This Murdock guy has it all wrong:

"The issue is not that it's a cute back and forth between a major video game developer and a lowly reviewer, but moreso that a major company attacked the livelihood of the reviewer because they didn't like the review, and they're acting like that's ok"

HVS is not major company, and *****y reviews like this affect the livelihood of 100 developers.

Avatar image for tomarlyn
tomarlyn

20148

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#18 tomarlyn
Member since 2005 • 20148 Posts
Is this sheep or Conduit fanboys? I can't possibly imagine there's any such thing as a Conduit fanboy
Avatar image for 1080pOnly
1080pOnly

2216

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#19 1080pOnly
Member since 2009 • 2216 Posts

This is classic and good on them!

See, the reviewer gave them a 1/5 to buck a trend and get people to read his review by causing a 'shock factor'. Happens with all games, at least one reviewer does it.

This guys mistake is to release a book on a site where you can rate it and leave comments. He should have seen it coming and fair play to them. If the reviewer thinks his bad review won't damage the commercial success of the Conduit then he shouldn't worry about the impact on his own book.

Avatar image for arbitor365
arbitor365

2726

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 0

#20 arbitor365
Member since 2009 • 2726 Posts

well, I think its perfectly fair. if joystiq gets to make biased, derisive, BS reviews on a daily basis, I think they deserve a taste of their own medicine every once in a while.

Avatar image for Mozelleple112
Mozelleple112

11293

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#21 Mozelleple112
Member since 2011 • 11293 Posts
Wow, HVS! Butthurt much?nintendoboy16
Indeed they were, can't believe this...
Avatar image for razgriz_101
razgriz_101

16875

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#22 razgriz_101
Member since 2007 • 16875 Posts

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

Thats actually kinda funny :P

Conduit 2 isn't 1/5 bad, more like 3/5. Very average game.

super600

The reviewer deserved it even though HVS and some parts of their fanbase should have backed off from giving the book 1/5 scores.

nobody deserves this.

Its childish,petty and makes HVS look like a bunch of utter idiots.

Avatar image for SaltyMeatballs
SaltyMeatballs

25165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#23 SaltyMeatballs
Member since 2009 • 25165 Posts

[QUOTE="super600"]

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

Thats actually kinda funny :P

Conduit 2 isn't 1/5 bad, more like 3/5. Very average game.

razgriz_101

The reviewer deserved it even though HVS and some parts of their fanbase should have backed off from giving the book 1/5 scores.

nobody deserves this.

Its childish,petty and makes HVS look like a bunch of utter idiots.

The game review he did already implied that. Hence why he deserves it.
Avatar image for mccoyca112
mccoyca112

5434

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#24 mccoyca112
Member since 2007 • 5434 Posts

[QUOTE="nintendoboy16"]Wow, HVS! Butthurt much?Mozelleple112
Indeed they were, can't believe this...

Yup, they're salty big time.

Avatar image for 1080pOnly
1080pOnly

2216

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#25 1080pOnly
Member since 2009 • 2216 Posts

[QUOTE="super600"]

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

Thats actually kinda funny :P

Conduit 2 isn't 1/5 bad, more like 3/5. Very average game.

razgriz_101

The reviewer deserved it even though HVS and some parts of their fanbase should have backed off from giving the book 1/5 scores.

nobody deserves this.

Its childish,petty and makes HVS look like a bunch of utter idiots.

Nobody deserves this except the developers of games right? Double standards much?

He should of thought a little before trashing someones hard work lest his hard work gets trashed.

Avatar image for razgriz_101
razgriz_101

16875

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#26 razgriz_101
Member since 2007 • 16875 Posts

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

[QUOTE="super600"]

The reviewer deserved it even though HVS and some parts of their fanbase should have backed off from giving the book 1/5 scores.

1080pOnly

nobody deserves this.

Its childish,petty and makes HVS look like a bunch of utter idiots.

Nobody deserves this except the developers of games right? Double standards much?

He should of thought a little before trashing someones hard work lest his hard work gets trashed.

it works both ways.The more mature thing would have been not to retaliate in such a manner.

Avatar image for noxboxlive
noxboxlive

5856

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#27 noxboxlive
Member since 2008 • 5856 Posts

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

[QUOTE="super600"]

The reviewer deserved it even though HVS and some parts of their fanbase should have backed off from giving the book 1/5 scores.

1080pOnly

nobody deserves this.

Its childish,petty and makes HVS look like a bunch of utter idiots.

Nobody deserves this except the developers of games right? Double standards much?

He should of thought a little before trashing someones hard work lest his hard work gets trashed.

Yes, but he is a reviewer, if he doesnt like the game and finds in flawed he gives it a bad review its his job. He trashed a game? well maybe its his OPINION?

the company doesnt need to start crying that someone doesnt like a pretty poor game. its childish and petty. the guy should sue them for it.

Avatar image for paradigm68
paradigm68

5588

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#28 paradigm68
Member since 2003 • 5588 Posts

You don't see developers or companies going out there and trying to get people fired because they gave a low score for your crappy game despite buying a ton of ad space there

fueled-system

Irony has got to be one of the funniest forms of comedy.

Avatar image for topgunmv
topgunmv

10880

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#29 topgunmv
Member since 2003 • 10880 Posts

That's what he gets for trying to hock his book in a game review.

Avatar image for 1080pOnly
1080pOnly

2216

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#30 1080pOnly
Member since 2009 • 2216 Posts

[QUOTE="1080pOnly"]

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

nobody deserves this.

Its childish,petty and makes HVS look like a bunch of utter idiots.

razgriz_101

Nobody deserves this except the developers of games right? Double standards much?

He should of thought a little before trashing someones hard work lest his hard work gets trashed.

it works both ways.The more mature thing would have been not to retaliate in such a manner.

Maturity doesn't express your anger and considering he hasn't done anything 'illegal' how were they supposed to hit back at him?

He completely trashed their game, completely. He didn't need to, it wasn't that bad. They lost money because of him. They got some revenge. All's fair in love and war...or in this case business.

Avatar image for 1080pOnly
1080pOnly

2216

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#31 1080pOnly
Member since 2009 • 2216 Posts

reviewer, if he doesnt like the game and finds in flawed he gives it a bad review its his job. He trashed a game? well maybe its his OPINION?

the company doesnt need to start crying that someone doesnt like a pretty poor game. its childish and petty. the guy should sue them for it.

noxboxlive

And therein lies the double standard again. They 'reviewed' his book in the same fair and unbiased way that he 'reviewed' their game. Tit for tat.

So what if it's childish, it's damn funny and having worked in the games industry myself I can envision them in the office doing it.

What you have to understand is even if the game is bad, people have spent a long time making it and put in a lot of effort. When a so-called independant reviewer rates your game, against the average by a big margin just to get people to look at his article and then sell his book...man thats a ***** thing to do.

Avatar image for adamlovesu
adamlovesu

829

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#32 adamlovesu
Member since 2010 • 829 Posts
Well that seals it... I've never bought an hv game before and I never will.
Avatar image for razgriz_101
razgriz_101

16875

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#33 razgriz_101
Member since 2007 • 16875 Posts

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

[QUOTE="1080pOnly"]

Nobody deserves this except the developers of games right? Double standards much?

He should of thought a little before trashing someones hard work lest his hard work gets trashed.

1080pOnly

it works both ways.The more mature thing would have been not to retaliate in such a manner.

Maturity doesn't express your anger and considering he hasn't done anything 'illegal' how were they supposed to hit back at him?

He completely trashed their game, completely. He didn't need to, it wasn't that bad. They lost money because of him. They got some revenge. All's fair in love and war...or in this case business.

you just walk away and laugh it off and say the simple words haters gonna hate.

I just find replying like such is irrational and immature, something one shouldnt expect from a developer.For one they would have been much better getting in contact with Joystiq and requesting a re-review with a diffrent reviewer and/or playing the Eidos card.

Avatar image for wolverine4262
wolverine4262

20832

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#34 wolverine4262
Member since 2004 • 20832 Posts

I remember that review. It was pretty great.

You would think that High Voltage would have something better to do... like addressing the numerous complaints raised by Joystiq's and many others' reviews.

Avatar image for finalfantasy94
finalfantasy94

27442

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#35 finalfantasy94
Member since 2004 • 27442 Posts

Why would you advertise something of yours in a review. That seems very unprofessinal.

Avatar image for KiZZo1
KiZZo1

3989

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#36 KiZZo1
Member since 2007 • 3989 Posts

He only deserves it if his review wasn't honest. Otherwise it's just intimidation of a journalist, which is bad ...

Avatar image for Darth_DuMas
Darth_DuMas

2687

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#37 Darth_DuMas
Member since 2006 • 2687 Posts

At first I was feeling a bit defensive and thinking how pathetic HVS was for this and they are. But the Joystiq review wasn't just bad, it was unprofessional. It was written like a SWs post. If someone writes a post like that, they instantly get accused of being a fanboy.

There wasn't any constructive criticisms. He didn't just point things out as bad, he just ripped into it. Theres no need to word a review like that, auther needs to grow up. It makes Joystiq look like an unprofessional site. It's a site seriously worth ignoring if that's how they write reviews.

The developer should be above this. Their tit for tat is pathetic but they're both unprofessional if you ask me.

I can't recall a GS review written like.

Avatar image for madsnakehhh
madsnakehhh

18368

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#38 madsnakehhh
Member since 2007 • 18368 Posts

Why he would give a link to his book on the first place on a Review of a video game?

That's bad, but yeah, it was also very inmature on HSV.

Avatar image for Hexagon_777
Hexagon_777

20348

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#39 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts

Why was this douche advertising his book in a review? Sounds like he wanted this stuff to happen.

Avatar image for Another-World
Another-World

784

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#40 Another-World
Member since 2011 • 784 Posts

It was wrong on both parts. the guy should not have advertised his book, and HVS should have tried and been more mature.

Avatar image for JigglyWiggly_
JigglyWiggly_

24625

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#41 JigglyWiggly_
Member since 2009 • 24625 Posts
Big deal? The game sucks.
Avatar image for Wanderer5
Wanderer5

25727

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 11

User Lists: 0

#42 Wanderer5
Member since 2006 • 25727 Posts

Why would you advertise something of yours in a review. That seems very unprofessinal.

finalfantasy94

Agree, plus his review seem pretty over the top. But what HVS did, which somewhat amusing, was pretty childish and unprofessional.

Avatar image for Ross_the_Boss6
Ross_the_Boss6

4056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#43 Ross_the_Boss6
Member since 2009 • 4056 Posts

Well I read the review and it's pretty harsh, but that doesn't justify HVS's actions. It's actually extremely pathetic.

Looking at the Amazon page for the reviewer's book, it seems like there's also some 5 star reviews from people who are trying to balance the score. I can't help but think this is a below average novel anyways and its averaged rating reflects that.

Avatar image for RandoIph
RandoIph

2041

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 0

#44 RandoIph
Member since 2010 • 2041 Posts

[QUOTE="Shirokishi_"]

Very mature HVS.... very...

SaltyMeatballs

The reviewer deserves it if you ask me. Not a great game but HVS deserve some respect, definitely a step up for the Wii's online.

This Murdock guy has it all wrong:

"The issue is not that it's a cute back and forth between a major video game developer and a lowly reviewer, but moreso that a major company attacked the livelihood of the reviewer because they didn't like the review, and they're acting like that's ok"

HVS is not major company, and *****y reviews like this affect the livelihood of 100 developers.

Well you know HVS can do something to positively affect the lives of their 100 or so employees to counter act that. They can stop making such crappy games. When the Conduit series is the highlight of your development portfolio, sorry, your team SUCKS. Period. HVS simply doesn't deserve any of the attention they get, and the fact they have a following, quite frankly, baffles me.
Avatar image for super600
super600

33161

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#45 super600  Moderator
Member since 2007 • 33161 Posts

Is this sheep or Conduit fanboys? I can't possibly imagine there's any such thing as a Conduit fanboytomarlyn

It's mostly angry Conduit 2 fans and some of the developers from HVS.

Avatar image for uglyhippos
uglyhippos

283

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#46 uglyhippos
Member since 2007 • 283 Posts

Everybody is taking this way too seriously. Its a user review on amazon, its not like they are paying the New York's Times book reviewer to give his book a bad review. I see it as a silly immature tongue and cheek prank. Like putting your co-workers stapler in jello. Honestly who takes amazon user reviews seriously anyways.

Avatar image for super600
super600

33161

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#47 super600  Moderator
Member since 2007 • 33161 Posts

Everybody is taking this way too seriously. Its a user review on amazon, its not like they are paying the New York's Times book reviewer to give his book a bad review. I see it as a silly immature tongue and cheek prank. Like putting your co-workers stapler in jello. Honestly who takes amazon user reviews seriously anyways.

uglyhippos

Like I said before there have been rumors that the C2 fanbase also wrote some reviews about that guy's book.

Avatar image for catfishmoon23
catfishmoon23

5197

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#48 catfishmoon23
Member since 2005 • 5197 Posts

I saw that a few days ago on Joystiq. Pretty pathetic of the devs and/or fans of the devs/games.

Avatar image for super600
super600

33161

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#49 super600  Moderator
Member since 2007 • 33161 Posts

I saw that a few days ago on Joystiq. Pretty pathetic of the devs and/or fans of the devs/games.

catfishmoon23

I agree! I wish they both did this in a mature way.