JRPG's and WRPG's are genres not places or origin.

Saying something like Demons souls is a JRPG because it was made in Japan is like calling a Pizza made in England English food, it's still Italian no matter where it's made.

Saying something like Demons souls is a JRPG because it was made in Japan is like calling a Pizza made in England English food, it's still Italian no matter where it's made.

mario_gamer

100% agreed

I disagree entirely because it's nonsensical and moronic to call something a "JRPG" and then go on to say "oh, we use geographic locations even though it has nothing to do with where it's from". Japanese Role playing game? Really? It tells us NOTHING except that it's a Role playing game and somehow related to Japan. Western Role playing game tells us NOTHING except that it's a role playing game that has something to do with the West. Heh, the first Japanese Role Playing Games were made in the West? I think someone had too many to drink. When you classify something, it has to make sense. It has to be reasonable. An MMORPG is called an MMO because it is massively multiplayer and online. This we can understand. We can walk away and say "yes, this is a multiplayer game with lots of people in it unlike other genres and sub genres". When we see "FPS", we understand immediately that it is a "First Person Shooter" and that means we're in the first person and we shoot things somehow unlike a Third Person Shooter where we are in the third person. However, looking at at Japanese Role Playing Games, a reasonable person would assume that such a game would come from Japan because it quite clearly identifies the country or culture of the Japanese. In other words it's a poor "genre" classification to suggest anything else. Certainly the Japanese do not call their games "Japanese RPGs", they call them RPGs. As I come to understand it, really only "hardcore" elitist diehard RPG fans use the archaic names and, hey, why bother with them.AncientDozer

the name itself is a very ppor choice, but a JRPG refers to a set of rules and concepts related to a genre that is more dominant in Japan

the first JRPG's were made by Western studios

Genres? Now hold on. The "JRPG" and "WRPG" terms are not genres, but acronyms given by players to differentiate them.

To make my perspective more clear, i'll make it easy ->

These are RPG genres:

• Tactical role-playing games
• Action role-playing games
• Competitive online role-playing games
• Massively multiplayer online role-playing games
• MUDs
• Roguelikes
• Adventure role-playing games

JRPG's and WRPG's are not, and never were genres. Denying this is denying common knowledge which is fact, and so your opinion is irelevant.

I disagree entirely because it's nonsensical and moronic to call something a "JRPG" and then go on to say "oh, we use geographic locations even though it has nothing to do with where it's from". Japanese Role playing game? Really? It tells us NOTHING except that it's a Role playing game and somehow related to Japan. Western Role playing game tells us NOTHING except that it's a role playing game that has something to do with the West. Heh, the first Japanese Role Playing Games were made in the West? I think someone had too many to drink. When you classify something, it has to make sense. It has to be reasonable. An MMORPG is called an MMO because it is massively multiplayer and online. This we can understand. We can walk away and say "yes, this is a multiplayer game with lots of people in it unlike other genres and sub genres". When we see "FPS", we understand immediately that it is a "First Person Shooter" and that means we're in the first person and we shoot things somehow unlike a Third Person Shooter where we are in the third person. However, looking at at Japanese Role Playing Games, a reasonable person would assume that such a game would come from Japan because it quite clearly identifies the country or culture of the Japanese. In other words it's a poor "genre" classification to suggest anything else. Certainly the Japanese do not call their games "Japanese RPGs", they call them RPGs. As I come to understand it, really only "hardcore" elitist diehard RPG fans use the archaic names and, hey, why bother with them.AncientDozer

JRPG = Japanese-style RPG (READ: Trash)

WRPG = Western-style RPG (READ: Worth playing)

It's not just the nationality of the developers.

I say Demon's Souls is a JRPG because I feel it's a JRPG, simple yet efficient.abuabed

Except it's ripped off countless Western Action RPGs/Hack and Slash games. There's nothing original about it. Only conolites disagree.

[QUOTE="abuabed"]I say Demon's Souls is a JRPG because I feel it's a JRPG, simple yet efficient.DeckardLee2010

Except it's ripped off countless Western Action RPGs/Hack and Slash games. There's nothing original about it. Only conolites disagree.

[QUOTE="ohthemanatee"]

[QUOTE="AncientDozer"] Thank you, Kanye, you put it better than me. [QUOTE="mario_gamer"]

[QUOTE="AncientDozer"]I disagree entirely because it's nonsensical and moronic to call something a "JRPG" and then go on to say "oh, we use geographic locations even though it has nothing to do with where it's from". Japanese Role playing game? Really? It tells us NOTHING except that it's a Role playing game and somehow related to Japan. Western Role playing game tells us NOTHING except that it's a role playing game that has something to do with the West. Heh, the first Japanese Role Playing Games were made in the West? I think someone had too many to drink. When you ****fy something, it has to make sense. It has to be reasonable. An MMORPG is called an MMO because it is massively multiplayer and online. This we can understand. We can walk away and say "yes, this is a multiplayer game with lots of people in it unlike other genres and sub genres". When we see "FPS", we understand immediately that it is a "First Person Shooter" and that means we're in the first person and we shoot things somehow unlike a Third Person Shooter where we are in the third person. However, looking at at Japanese Role Playing Games, a reasonable person would assume that such a game would come from Japan because it quite clearly identifies the country or culture of the Japanese. In other words it's a poor "genre" ****fication to suggest anything else. Certainly the Japanese do not call their games "Japanese RPGs", they call them RPGs. As I come to understand it, really only "hardcore" elitist diehard RPG fans use the archaic names and, hey, why bother with them.AncientDozer

I never said those things weren't moronic, did I? These things are entirely foolish and misleading but I DO know the history of either food and the reason they are called thus are entirely based upon mistake.

We call Chinese Food chinese food even though most of it is technically only loosely based on cuisine from Asia.

In fact, most of it was invented for Westerners. In effect, all these names that are clearly wrong are based on ignorance and mistaken thought.

You'll have to remind me what Japanese Role Playing Games were made in the West.

AncientDozer

Ultima 3, Septerra Core, Sudeki, Anachornox. the Wizardry series, Sonic the Dark Brotherhood,

hell, Dragon quest and final fantasy were pretty much rip offs of Ultima 3 and the Wizardry series

Saying something like Demons souls is a JRPG because it was made in Japan is like calling a Pizza made in England English food, it's still Italian no matter where it's made.

mario_gamer

[QUOTE="abuabed"]I say Demon's Souls is a JRPG because I feel it's a JRPG, simple yet efficient.DeckardLee2010

Except it's ripped off countless Western Action RPGs/Hack and Slash games. There's nothing original about it. Only conolites disagree.

[QUOTE="DeckardLee2010"]

[QUOTE="abuabed"]I say Demon's Souls is a JRPG because I feel it's a JRPG, simple yet efficient.hd5870corei7

Except it's ripped off countless Western Action RPGs/Hack and Slash games. There's nothing original about it. Only conolites disagree.

I wanted to make absolute sure but Kanye was right. Game Spot doesn't even use WRPG or JRPG to classify. Final Fantasy and Dragon Age, for instance only use the "RPG" tag. So it is no an official genre or anything, therefor nothing is set in stone and therefor very much open to interpretation and discussion.AncientDozer

I'm always right.

Genres? Now hold on. The "JRPG" and "WRPG" terms are not genres, but acronyms given by players to differentiate them.

To make my perspective more clear, i'll make it easy ->

These are RPG genres:

• Tactical role-playing games
• Action role-playing games
• Competitive online role-playing games
• Massively multiplayer online role-playing games
• MUDs
• Roguelikes
• Adventure role-playing games

JRPG's and WRPG's are not, and never were genres. Denying this is denying common knowledge which is fact, and so your opinion is irelevant.

Lucianu

Yep, this is common knowledge those who do not understand this never researched genres.

[QUOTE="ohthemanatee"]

[QUOTE="AncientDozer"]

You'll have to remind me what Japanese Role Playing Games were made in the West.

AncientDozer

Ultima 3, Septerra Core, Sudeki, Anachornox. the Wizardry series, Sonic the Dark Brotherhood,

hell, Dragon quest and final fantasy were pretty much rip offs of Ultima 3 and the Wizardry series

lol? the only reason you gave me as to why those are not JRPG's was the art direction

I hope you're not trying to say that if fallout 3 was an anime game it would have been a JRPG :roll:

[QUOTE="mario_gamer"][QUOTE="AncientDozer"] And why are french fries called french when they are Belgian?

I never said those things weren't moronic, did I? These things are entirely foolish and misleading but I DO know the history of either food and the reason they are called thus are entirely based upon mistake.

We call Chinese Food chinese food even though most of it is technically only loosely based on cuisine from Asia.

In fact, most of it was invented for Westerners. In effect, all these names that are clearly wrong are based on ignorance and mistaken thought.

AncientDozer

Wow I'm getting pretty sick of this...people like TC obviously still struggle with the terms yet still throws them around liberally.

Style is not grounds for a genre, just because you can throw meat and cheese on dough anywhere doesn't make it a pizza. In Japan it's actually Okonomiyaki.

It all hinges on the definition, and personally I think distinguishing games by country of origin is stupid, so it must go to the style of the game. I will take what Kevin-V said before about Demon's Souls:

Assuming you disregard where and by whom this game was made, it is clearly a Western RPG. If this game were made by a European or American developer, this conversation wouldn't be happening, as its gameplay is entirely hack-and-slash-style role-playing. However, as games become more and more difficult to classify, I'm intrigued by the opposing viewpoint; however, I don't necessarily understand it. Fully real-time hack-and-slash, non-party combat, within the world proper and not a confined arena; a character creator in which you customize your appearance and choose a class; online integration (and inspired integration, at that); and none of the extreme story integration of JRPGs.

Of greater note is the title, which drives me insane from a grammar standpoint. It should be "Demons' Souls," as it does not refer to the many souls of a single demon, but the souls of many demons.

Kevin-V

I agree with him, clearly plays like a WRPG, but it's made in Japan so people classify it as a JRPG? That wouldn't really help me if I was looking for a good WRPG and Demon's Souls would qualify with flying colours. He also makes some other points in that thread.

http://uk.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=27041655&page=0

It all hinges on the definition, and personally I think distinguishing games by country of origin is stupid, so it must go to the style of the game. I will take what Kevin-V said before about Demon's Souls:

[QUOTE="Kevin-V"]

Assuming you disregard where and by whom this game was made, it is clearly a Western RPG. If this game were made by a European or American developer, this conversation wouldn't be happening, as its gameplay is entirely hack-and-slash-style role-playing. However, as games become more and more difficult to classify, I'm intrigued by the opposing viewpoint; however, I don't necessarily understand it. Fully real-time hack-and-slash, non-party combat, within the world proper and not a confined arena; a character creator in which you customize your appearance and choose a class; online integration (and inspired integration, at that); and none of the extreme story integration of JRPGs.

Of greater note is the title, which drives me insane from a grammar standpoint. It should be "Demons' Souls," as it does not refer to the many souls of a single demon, but the souls of many demons.

SaltyMeatballs

I agree with him, clearly plays like a WRPG, but it's made in Japan so people classify it as a JRPG? That wouldn't really help me if I was looking for a good WRPG and Demon's Souls would qualify with flying colours. He also makes some other points in that thread.

http://uk.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=27041655&page=0

That's why you'd say Demon's Souls is an ARPG, or a hack-and-slash RPG, something that is actually descriptive.

At the end of the day, if you look at the list of RPG sub-genres including the JRPG and WRPG, those 2 are clearly the odd men out, so to speak.

The terms first make baseless assumptions on what JRPGs and WRPGs gameplays are like, and then assumes everyone else knows exactly what those assumptions are.

There's a reason why people still argue over where games like Demon's Souls, because it overlaps between those stereotypes of what JRPGs and WRPGs should be. Like you said, being called JRPG and WRPG reveals very little information about them. If anything the terms should be abolished, but of course that's never going to happen.

Not at all. You can reread my posts if you like to get a better sense of what I was suggesting. For example. . Septerra core, artistically and mechanically, is more western games, the same goes with Anachronox from what I've had. The other point I made is that no critic, no expert, no professional calls them. . or any other game. . . a JRPG or WRPG in anything but casual conversation. Which Kanye pointed out. There is no set definition of JRPG or WRPG beyond what fans want it to be which leaves it very disorganized and chaotic. For me, because we use geographic locations, it represents geographic locations. If we want to be specific on what kind of RPG it is, mechanically speaking, we go to what Kanye listed.AncientDozer

you do know you that this time you didn't actually point to anything specific right? just saying "mechanics" is as vague as you can get

Genres? Now hold on. The "JRPG" and "WRPG" terms are not genres, but acronyms given by players to differentiate them.

To make my perspective more clear, i'll make it easy ->

These are RPG genres:

• Tactical role-playing games
• Action role-playing games
• Competitive online role-playing games
• Massively multiplayer online role-playing games
• MUDs
• Roguelikes
• Adventure role-playing games

JRPG's and WRPG's are not, and never were genres. Denying this is denying common knowledge which is fact, and so your opinion is irelevant.

Lucianu

The fact that some games don't neatly fit into either catergory doesn't change anything (categorising games into genres is inherently sticky in many cases anyway, that doesn't entirely invalidate descriptions though). The fact that there is also a lot of disagreement on what makes a JRPG or WRPG also doesn't change anything...all it does is make things messy, though it doesn't change that fact that when most people talk about JRPG or WRPG they are probably talking about a type of gameplay and aesthetic (in the case of the blanket term "wrpg" most people probably don't even know where they are made...or indeed it if they are made in what would strictly speaking...constitute 'the west').

That's my 2 pennies anyway. To summarise, these terms are very loose, very inaccurate labels given to types of game. And when I say types of game that means in terms of play **** aesthetics and design philosophy. Granted, they are exceptionally loose terms at times, but the debate only goes on precisely because RPG's often walk the line between two traditions. And that really is the point: there are two traditions that are still continuing today.

I don't agree that WRPG or JRPG are genres, more like styles of a certain genre. I still prefer the terms console-style and pc-style RPGs.

It all hinges on the definition, and personally I think distinguishing games by country of origin is stupid, so it must go to the style of the game. I will take what Kevin-V said before about Demon's Souls:

[QUOTE="Kevin-V"]

Assuming you disregard where and by whom this game was made, it is clearly a Western RPG. If this game were made by a European or American developer, this conversation wouldn't be happening, as its gameplay is entirely hack-and-slash-style role-playing. However, as games become more and more difficult to classify, I'm intrigued by the opposing viewpoint; however, I don't necessarily understand it. Fully real-time hack-and-slash, non-party combat, within the world proper and not a confined arena; a character creator in which you customize your appearance and choose a class; online integration (and inspired integration, at that); and none of the extreme story integration of JRPGs.

Of greater note is the title, which drives me insane from a grammar standpoint. It should be "Demons' Souls," as it does not refer to the many souls of a single demon, but the souls of many demons.

SaltyMeatballs

I agree with him, clearly plays like a WRPG, but it's made in Japan so people classify it as a JRPG? That wouldn't really help me if I was looking for a good WRPG and Demon's Souls would qualify with flying colours. He also makes some other points in that thread.

http://uk.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=27041655&page=0

You show the point very well, WRPG and JRPG invoke an idea of what a game is like, as you say with looking for a good WRPG, this pretty much proves they talk about a category and not a place of origin.

I don't agree that WRPG or JRPG are genres, more like **** of a certain genre. I still prefer the terms console-****and pc-****RPGs.

ZIVX

Actually if you read gaming magazines from the 90's you will notice that JRPG evolved from the term Japanese-Styled RPG which evolved from CRPG. Even here on GS if you look at RPG reviews from the PS era you can track this evolution from Japanese-Styled RPG to only JRPG. The cRPG to WRPG one ocurred a little bit later, around end of 90's early 00's.

[QUOTE="Lucianu"]

Genres? Now hold on. The "JRPG" and "WRPG" terms are not genres, but acronyms given by players to differentiate them.

To make my perspective more clear, i'll make it easy ->

These are RPG genres:

• Tactical role-playing games
• Action role-playing games
• Competitive online role-playing games
• Massively multiplayer online role-playing games
• MUDs
• Roguelikes
• Adventure role-playing games

JRPG's and WRPG's are not, and never were genres. Denying this is denying common knowledge which is fact, and so your opinion is irelevant.

Articuno76

The fact that some games don't neatly fit into either catergory doesn't change anything (categorising games into genres is inherently sticky in many cases anyway, that doesn't entirely invalidate descriptions though). The fact that there is also a lot of disagreement on what makes a JRPG or WRPG also doesn't change anything...all it does is make things messy, though it doesn't change that fact that when most people talk about JRPG or WRPG they are probably talking about a type of gameplay and aesthetic (in the case of the blanket term "wrpg" most people probably don't even know where they are made...or indeed it if they are made in what would strictly speaking...constitute 'the west').

That's my 2 pennies anyway. To summarise, these terms are very loose, very inaccurate labels given to types of game. And when I say types of game that means in terms of play **** aesthetics and design philosophy. Granted, they are exceptionally loose terms at times, but the debate only goes on precisely because RPG's often walk the line between two traditions. And that really is the point: there are two traditions that are still continuing today.

I fully understand what you wrote there, i know the terms seem very loose and could be quite confuzing, or messy, looking at this from a more logical perspective. Your answer as to why is also something i agree with. I think you're view on this is very acceptable, yeah, two different traditions is something i would say they are.. Or like the last posters here said, two different st*les of a certain genre, with some distinct gameplay/visual features to both of them.

Yeah i think that's about the most logically correct thing we can say about these acronyms.

Saying something like Demons souls is a JRPG because it was made in Japan is like calling a Pizza made in England English food, it's still Italian no matter where it's made.

mario_gamer

In my opinion JRPGS and WRPGs are subgenres that define a particular style to a game similar to RTS and TBS. JRPG has the more cinematic games with less choices/consequences but a more gripping story. WRPGs on the other hand let go of the cinematic philosophy for a more open world where choices are what drive the narrative.

That is my reason for being interested in Demon's Souls. It sounds like they used some WRPG design philosophies on it to fix what I don't like about JRPG philosophies.

In my opinion JRPGS and WRPGs are subgenres that define a particular style to a game similar to RTS and TBS. JRPG has the more cinematic games with less choices/consequences but a more gripping story. WRPGs on the other hand let go of the cinematic philosophy for a more open world where choices are what drive the narrative.

That is my reason for being interested in Demon's Souls. It sounds like they used some WRPG design philosophies on it to fix what I don't like about JRPG philosophies.

Whiteblade999

But gaming genres are always confusing and or ambiguous. For example like you mentioned strategy. RTS is a defined genre, it's a strategy game where you have city management, economy management and unti management all in real time, basically Dune 2 clones. TBS is simply to indicate that a game is played in turns. These games are usually from real defined genres like 4X, Wargames or Tactical games. Just because a strategy game is in real time it means it's a RTS. Something similar I would say happened in the RPG's since people misunderstand the original meaning of JRPG/WRPG/CRPG/cRPG.

JRPG = Japanese-style RPG (READ: Trash)

WRPG = Western-style RPG (READ: Worth playing)

It's not just the nationality of the developers.

DeckardLee2010

I disagree entirely because it's nonsensical and moronic to call something a "JRPG" and then go on to say "oh, we use geographic locations even though it has nothing to do with where it's from". Japanese Role playing game? Really? It tells us NOTHING except that it's a Role playing game and somehow related to Japan. Western Role playing game tells us NOTHING except that it's a role playing game that has something to do with the West. Heh, the first Japanese Role Playing Games were made in the West? I think someone had too many to drink. When you classify something, it has to make sense. It has to be reasonable. An MMORPG is called an MMO because it is massively multiplayer and online. This we can understand. We can walk away and say "yes, this is a multiplayer game with lots of people in it unlike other genres and sub genres". When we see "FPS", we understand immediately that it is a "First Person Shooter" and that means we're in the first person and we shoot things somehow unlike a Third Person Shooter where we are in the third person. However, looking at at Japanese Role Playing Games, a reasonable person would assume that such a game would come from Japan because it quite clearly identifies the country or culture of the Japanese. In other words it's a poor "genre" classification to suggest anything else. Certainly the Japanese do not call their games "Japanese RPGs", they call them RPGs. As I come to understand it, really only "hardcore" elitist diehard RPG fans use the archaic names and, hey, why bother with them.AncientDozer