KZ3 MP is the new MW2 ... Possibly Worse

[QUOTE="FIipMode"]

[QUOTE="IppoTenma"]I hear that, but there's a point where you just take a different route and spawn SOMEWHERE ELSE. I flanked the campers with my trusty jetpack and all was well. Not a big deal.IppoTenma

I think it's pretty significant, because of the spawn camping a spawn point close to an objective is now a death sentence, this could easily be solved in Killzone 2 by just tossing a spawn grenade in a secluded location still somewhat close to the objective and then all would be fine, or you could spawn on your squad leader.

Now in KZ3 the only other option is to spawn somewhere far away like at the base, now your running across the map just to to get to the objective, not only does that take up time but you might get killed on the way. This probably wouldn't be such an annoyance if there were more spawn points but there's only like 3 on a map.

My words are in bold :).

[QUOTE="Episode_Eve"]

[QUOTE="Mordred19"]

I only needed to try the beta to see what was going on. GG had absolutely no confidence in their own game. it now offers nothing of its own.

Mordred19

That's not true at all. They had complete confidence in this game. I'd say they had too much confidence, lol. The problem is that they followed the designs of one guy, who changed what made KZ2 such an amazing MP game.

If Guerrilla were allowed (or gave themselves) more time, like until October, the MP would be better. For example, imagine what Reach's MP would be like if there were released in Februrary 2010, instead of September.

I'm sure a larger workload was related, after all, they had to push 3D and Move so Sony could show something off.

but what shows their confidence when they:

take Halo Reach's assassinations idea but leave out the balance and letting players just stab others in the face, even if the attacker was being shot at the time

Well, I'm not so sure they "took" the idea from Bungie, but you may not be using the word literally. Brutal melees can be countered though: you're still able to shoot them in the first stages of the animations. I've killed plenty of attackers by doing this (the camera begins to go into 3rd person, then swings back to 1st). Also, teammates can shoot (or even intercept by brutal melee-ing them in the process) and kill your assailant.

I'm not super fan of brutal melees in the MP, but I don't think they're broken, by any means.

take out spawn grenades and replace it with capture points. spawn grenade = different, special, unique, very flexible tactics. any issue with it in KZ2 could have been rectified in KZ3, because they had a fresh start with new knowledge, and it is entirely GG's fault if player's didn't know how to use spawn grenades properly in 2 (there were no tips in load screens saying "it spawns you in the opposite direction when you deployed it"

I agree with spawn nades. They weren't perfect, but instead of tweaking them, they changed the method behind spawning. Like I previously stated, spawn nades were Eric Boltjes' ideas (along with most of KZ2 designs). TSAs sound good on paper, but when you don't work as a team, they can be very troublesome.

throw in a completely arbitrary ribbon system that gives players extra damage and faster reloads in the middle of a game, with no downsides like recoil or movement speed

I hate the ribbon system for the most part (double XP is cool, and I'm fine with faster reloads). They will be patching in nerfs for increased bullet damage and increased accuracy. Also, this doesn't mean they didn't have confidence in the previous game, they thought it could enhance the experience (something I disagree with).

have an upgrade system that is all about improving abilities, when those tier 3 abilities are integral enough that all players should have them from the beginning. think about it: engineers that have to buy their turrets? tacticians that need to buy their drones? every player has to buy their sidearm? they pulled something like this in KZ2, and it was a bad idea, this is even worse in 3. I saw the same thing in Bad Company 2, hold back integral skills just to give players more stuff to grind for. "unlock your ammo boxes, your med kits, your repair tool, look! we're just like the COD games now! really!"

Each c|ass has their most important abilities to start with. I understand your point, and it's vaild. But, I guess it's down to personal preference regarding unlocks.

a system with each abilitiy having a downside to balance it would have provided perfect variety while meaning that newer players were never screwed over.

There are counters to abilites:

- Tact's Spot and Mark is completely killed by the Marksman's Scramble. If you aren't in the range of the Scrambler, S&M will target them, I believe.
- Tact's S&M identifies disguisd enemy Infiltrators (on screen, and on radar). Also, your crosshairs will turn red when pointed at an enemy Infiltrator.
- Turrets and drones aren't nearly as difficult to take down as they were in KZ2. Plus, Tactician air bots disappear when they die.
- If you destroy a Medi-drone next to a Medic, it will likely kill them.
- Medic's revive gun is actually not as useful, now, lol. They're patching in more range soon. There's also a sacrifice in reviving a teammate, it leaves them open.
- Proximity mines disappear after 60 seconds, so you can't camp in a room with them for an elongated period of time.

There are other abilities that don't even need counters, like the Tact's TSA capture, Medic's healing aura, Engy's repair tool, etc.

developers make mistakes, it happens. some don't go back and change them. there is a tendency for people to just accept the first thing they get without considering the alternative.

Yeah, that's true. Thankfully, I see Guerrilla devs are on the boards conversing with fans about issues, and they already have a nice list of fixes, with more to come. I really do appreciate their involvement and response :).

In the end, I think they were completely confident with their KZ2, outside of controls. What they made the mistake of doing is going about altering the complaints of Killzone 2 in the wrong way.

It's not about confidence, I believe. They followed the lead of a guy who wanted to go in a different direction.

People should really stop involving COD into f***ing everything.

We know,the game sucks.Stop whining about it every goddamn time.

Lto_thaG

8.5 is HORRIBLE.

[QUOTE="Lto_thaG"]

People should really stop involving COD into f***ing everything.

We know,the game sucks.Stop whining about it every goddamn time.

Easyle

8.5 is HORRIBLE.

[QUOTE="W1NGMAN-"][QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"] And have you seen what SOCOM looks like?HardGames420

:lol: how is he trolling?

[QUOTE="HardGames420"][QUOTE="W1NGMAN-"] Yea, graphically it looks like ass ... your point?BPoole96

:lol: how is he trolling?

:roll:

People now-a-days. :P

Have any of you guys tried beating MAWLR graveyard as ISA? That map just makes me want to cry half the time. The first two objectives are easy and straight forward but the battery cells can seem impossible in certain games. If the helghast team is half as good as the ISA team, there's no way they will lose it.shakmaster13

Ugh yeah I hate that one. I've won it before but everyone on my team died a lot. The ISA basically has to run through the spawn point ofthe HGH to deliver the cells

[QUOTE="Zaibach"]

I gotta stop hanging around here, the collective ire for some games actually start ruining them for me, but thanks for your opinion bro. I'm gonna go back to kz3 3 now. I suggest you sell your copy and and stick to kz 2 instead of coming here *****ing about it

W1NGMAN-

I'm liking how the people who disagree don't say anything more than "are you serious?" "stop crying".:P

Btwchickenwing, I toldRockmanhow you are disliking KZ3 MP a lot and he bashed me.:( What's with all of this KZ3 defending?:P

sanim02

it dont take long for cheaters to ruin online games on psn. all they have to do is put the cheat into the game savels file and bam they can take extra damage, be super fast,and kill you with a single shot with any gun in the game. dont know . warhawk was the worst. used to be a great game then u have guys taking shots from tank while on foot and blowing it up like it was nothing... sick thing there is no risk to get caught either because psn is free so they can just make a new account if they get banned.

episode_eve, your're right about counters between cIass abilities, how they interact, but I'm just a fan of TF2's philosophy of sidegrades, where all new items are purely optional and don't need to be on your loadout, and when they are, the new effects have clearly stated weaknesses you did not have before. I think Killzone as a competitive shooter could benefit greatly from this simple idea, and when a developer passes that up, we're left waiting again for the next sequel, and the next one, and the next one, etc :P

I understand your opinions though. I do think KZ3 can be fun, just like MW2 and BO were for a while. but I won't be buying the game like I did KZ2 at full price. and it's definetly better debating with you than those on the KZ3 forums :P

episode_eve, your're right about counters between cIass abilities, how they interact, but I'm just a fan of TF2's philosophy of sidegrades, where all new items are purely optional and don't need to be on your loadout, and when they are, the new effects have clearly stated weaknesses you did not have before. I think Killzone as a competitive shooter could benefit greatly from this simple idea, and when a developer passes that up, we're left waiting again for the next sequel, and the next one, and the next one, etc :P

I understand your opinions though. I do think KZ3 can be fun, just like MW2 and BO were for a while. but I won't be buying the game like I did KZ2 at full price. and it's definetly better debating with you than those on the KZ3 forums :P

Mordred19

Yeah, TF2 is super balanced.

As for KZ3, I'm disappointed (just ask the OP, Wingman), but I don't think it's the worst thing ever, like some people do :P. There needs to be patches, and thankfully they're listening. I've had matches play out amazingly well, depending on whether players are actually playing their role and communicating. And I've had them play out terribly bad :P.

I've actually been very active on the offical boards since the open beta, expressing my thoughts, and conversing with devs (I've gotten a lot of answers, too!). And the KZ boards can be rough, lol. Especially for the devs.

WHAT THE ****! :| The only reason why I even bought KZ3 was to play with you and Eve. $65 down the drain. :( Screw that, I'm not going to buy UC3(sorry sanim) or R3 anymore. lol

Rockman999

Hey, man, I'm not giving up on it (yet :P). You know I'ma still play. But I'll alternate between this and SOCOM 4 eventually. Maybe BRINK, too. You know, Niel Alphonso, one of Killzone 2's map designers, works with Spash Damage now!

Really now? i personally am loving Killzone 3 especially the online, much better than Killzone 2

finalstar2007

Yeah, me too. I've certainly been on a number of teams that "sweep" the competition, but have also been swept as well a few times. A little teamwork goes a long way to turning the tide of battle.

I would make a few changes if it were up to me.

* the Tactitions would be able to bypass the spawn invulnerability. As it is, the Tac is completely defenseless while the enemy spawns and decides which way to dispatch him.

* the Tacs spot and mark ability would be more effective.

* I'd take away that silenced auto pistol from the Marksman, probably the assault rifle as well.

* I'd make the Proxy mines a secondary weapon for the marksman, and maybe the engineer as well. Not for everyone in place of grenades, don't like that.

* I'd region lock the ranked servers, and allow the custom, unranked servers to be worldwide.

* I'd change the squad lobby to a team lobby, with 12 places available. I'd include the ability to designate squads and squad leaders in that lobby, as well as configure loadouts for the match.

I think that's it, all in all far less than I'd change in most MP games.

I hated how in KIlizone 2, whenever you spawned from a smoke grenade you'd be facing the wrong direction. Did it ever occur to Geurilla that I'd prefer to face towards the ENEMY base, where the bad guys are all coming from? It was so easy for spawn campers to just park their asses in front of a smoke grenade and shoot you in the back as soon as you spawned.Timstuff

That depended on how the Tactician deployed the spawn nade. Players would spawn facing the opposite direction the Tact faced when he dropped it. And yeah, lame players often spawn killed them :(. The big plume of smoke was a signal, they should've been less obvious. Also, they shouldn't have been able to be placed directly on top of objectives (a certain "do deploy zone" should apply).

Well, they changed it in KZ3. And if you see a Tact, please follow and support him, it's vital you guys get enough Tactical Spawn Areas (and if you're a Tact, do yo job!). In KZ3, you have a 1-2 second invincibility, when you spawn though.

I hated how in KIlizone 2, whenever you spawned from a smoke grenade you'd be facing the wrong direction. Did it ever occur to Geurilla that I'd prefer to face towards the ENEMY base, where the bad guys are all coming from? It was so easy for spawn campers to just park their asses in front of a smoke grenade and shoot you in the back as soon as you spawned.Timstuff

There are a few things that I liked more in KZ2, but for the most part, I'm having a blast with KZ3. I think the TSPA's in the map are a pretty sweet addition to the MP. I've had some great battles waring over which team controls which spawn points. It can completely shift the tide of battle depending on who controls the TSA's. It's much better than the god awful spawn grenades in KZ2. When they were used correctly, they were fine, but that was a rare occurence. More often than not you'd get people just tossing them anywhere and the opposing team just camping by them waiting for people to spawn. Another thing I dislike about KZ3 is that you can't revive people from a distancce anymore as a medic. You actually have to be pretty much on top of the person for the option to pop up. Other than that, it's awesome. Them taking out ability switching sucks, but I'm crossing my fingers that they'll patch that in soon.

How could GG screw up the MP of KZ3 when KZ2 was near perfection? Maybe perfection is a bit of an exaggeration but nothing major needed to be addressed in KZ2, less load times, more info displayed to a player before joining a room, easier way to party up, you know simple things that didn't involve the core game.

Instead GG decided to fool around with the setup of KZ2 and managed to ruin everything that was good about KZ2 :?

TSAs were a way to prevent frag campers of KZ2, now we simply have spawn campers due to the limited and poorly placed TSAs on the map! Each map seems to give one team the upper hand and due to this Warzone matches are ending more frequently with 5-2 scores or complete sweeps.

Then theres "in game perks" where the rich get richer, not being able to mix n match abilities between classes, invisibility having no counter ... geez I can go on. KZ3 MP is an balanced piece of turd with better controls.

Wish it was Socom 4 that released Feb 22 rather than this poor excuse of a "blockbuster title"W1NGMAN-

Im not going to comment on your "near perfection" KZ2 comment since thats gonna take us with another long argument so Im going to talk about the now which is KZ3.

as far as spawn campers goes, its a matter of skill more than broken MP, if you can't kill the campers who killed you after respawning then its your fault since they can't get near the spawn points because of the turrets, there is an amount of space between the spawn point and the spawn campers so there is a great chance of escaping or shooting the campers, all you have to do to make your escapeeroute even easier is to change your class to thetacticianto see all of your enemies, I say improve your skills and practice more cuz I can make it out of spawn campers, if I could make it you could too :P

As for the in-game perks, that's a great addition, i didn't like it at first and I was feeling the same but after improving and levelling up with my favorite classes I don't mind it, that aspect rewards the player who is better and do more in the match, I like that very much.

I have some complaints though, I agree on the marksman class its like the most overpowered class in the game.

I mean invisibility, scramble enemy radar within 15 f**** meters, I can live with the invisibility, I can counter that with drones but the scramble thing has no counter and above all of that they gave the marksman assault rifle, I mean wtf ? so he is invisible to my eyes , he is invisible to the tactician radar and he is hiding in a corner with a assault rifle, how the f*** Im gonna kill that jerk?

they need to balance the marksman with another class.

Im sorry but this game is way better then mw2 and no where near like it. I have yet to run into hardcore campers. While I will miss the weight feel of KZ2 imo KZ3 feels much better.

Wow, really?

Im probably not going to get it now. Its not just this post but other things ive heard. I also love KZ2 multiplayer so its a shame to hear what theyve done in KZ3. I didnt like the SP demo either. Guess ill stick with KZ2.

People he isn't exactly comparing Killzone to MW2. He's basically saying Killzone 3 is to Killzone 2 as MW2 was to MW1. And that both are kind of unbalanced lol


Anyway, yeah this game was a big disappointment for me, so I'll see how Brink, Socom, or Battlefield 3 is.

Wow, really?

Im probably not going to get it now. Its not just this post but other things ive heard. I also love KZ2 multiplayer so its a shame to hear what theyve done in KZ3. I didnt like the SP demo either. Guess ill stick with KZ2.

shutdown_202

In my eyes all they changed was the weight thing. The class mix up like how you can have 1 skill from one class and one from another. Lastly the smoke spawns and thank god they did. Every match always turned into one big cluster **** with constant grande and rocket spaming. KZ3 feels less clustered and more fun. All I miss is the weight but I can live with it.

Oh and matches in Killzone 3 can easily turn into mortar spam. I've had teammates do it on Graveyard and the ice level. It's pretty bad in the Graveyard level, because you toss that in their spawn and there is no chance that they'll escape.

When I realized that you didn't have to control your shots anymore, that's when I uninstalled the beta, and canceled my preorder. And, that hit me like a truck. I was like, "Oh, snap. I understand why I was getting the weirdest deaths now. It's because I was trying to burst fire, while my opponent was just going full auto." Silly me.

You got punished hardcore for doing that in KZ2. No matter the distance, that was a bad move.
Don't get me wrong, though. If that was the only thing I didn't like, I could have let it slide. Less players, health/bullet damage, brutal melee, spawn on squad, gun distribution, etc. Gaaahhh!

I'll get this game later in the year after it gets some patches that are clearly due.
It's not worth it to me right now.

How could GG screw up the MP of KZ3 when KZ2 was near perfection? Maybe perfection is a bit of an exaggeration but nothing major needed to be addressed in KZ2, less load times, more info displayed to a player before joining a room, easier way to party up, you know simple things that didn't involve the core game. Instead GG decided to fool around with the setup of KZ2 and managed to ruin everything that was good about KZ2 :? TSAs were a way to prevent frag campers of KZ2, now we simply have spawn campers due to the limited and poorly placed TSAs on the map! Each map seems to give one team the upper hand and due to this Warzone matches are ending more frequently with 5-2 scores or complete sweeps. Then theres "in game perks" where the rich get richer, not being able to mix n match abilities between classes, invisibility having no counter ... geez I can go on. KZ3 MP is an balanced piece of turd with better controls. Wish it was Socom 4 that released Feb 22 rather than this poor excuse of a "blockbuster title"W1NGMAN-

[QUOTE="sanim02"]I'm liking how the people who disagree don't say anything more than "are you serious?" "stop crying".:PFIipMode

It is disappointing when you write out clearly why the game is inferior all you get as a response is "stop crying" or "you just suck at the game".

The reasons are written out, but they aren't clear. The classes only seem unbalanced if your team isn't using all of them. Most of what he wrote sounds like it's coming from someone who is unwilling to learn the subtleties of a new game.

The TSA's are an improvement over the grenades IMO. The fight for TSAs is another level of game on top of whatever objective is going on, and really makes it feel like the side with the most team work is the one that wins.

You shouldn't be spawning at the base and running to the objective if they have all the TSAs, or they are spawn camping the one you do have. You should be switching to Tac or maybe engineer escorting a Tac and gaining ground for your team. You don't have to win every round, and it'd usually be smarter to better position your team for the upcoming rounds rather than just go die a lot.

Oh and matches in Killzone 3 can easily turn into mortar spam. I've had teammates do it on Graveyard and the ice level. It's pretty bad in the Graveyard level, because you toss that in their spawn and there is no chance that they'll escape.

Luxen90

[QUOTE="FIipMode"]

[QUOTE="sanim02"]I'm liking how the people who disagree don't say anything more than "are you serious?" "stop crying".:PPug-Nasty

It is disappointing when you write out clearly why the game is inferior all you get as a response is "stop crying" or "you just suck at the game".

The reasons are written out, but they aren't clear. The classes only seem unbalanced if your team isn't using all of them. Most of what he wrote sounds like it's coming from someone who is unwilling to learn the subtleties of a new game.

The TSA's are an improvement over the grenades IMO. The fight for TSAs is another level of game on top of whatever objective is going on, and really makes it feel like the side with the most team work is the one that wins.

You shouldn't be spawning at the base and running to the objective if they have all the TSAs, or they are spawn camping the one you do have. You should be switching to Tac or maybe engineer escorting a Tac and gaining ground for your team. You don't have to win every round, and it'd usually be smarter to better position your team for the upcoming rounds rather than just go die a lot.

I do wish there were more maps but the visual detail on the ones there are astounding. It doesnt sound like you were gelling with your team tc, so its a good thing you sold the game.

[QUOTE="FIipMode"]

[QUOTE="sanim02"]I'm liking how the people who disagree don't say anything more than "are you serious?" "stop crying".:PPug-Nasty

It is disappointing when you write out clearly why the game is inferior all you get as a response is "stop crying" or "you just suck at the game".

The reasons are written out, but they aren't clear. The classes only seem unbalanced if your team isn't using all of them. Most of what he wrote sounds like it's coming from someone who is unwilling to learn the subtleties of a new game.

The TSA's are an improvement over the grenades IMO. The fight for TSAs is another level of game on top of whatever objective is going on, and really makes it feel like the side with the most team work is the one that wins.

You shouldn't be spawning at the base and running to the objective if they have all the TSAs, or they are spawn camping the one you do have. You should be switching to Tac or maybe engineer escorting a Tac and gaining ground for your team. You don't have to win every round, and it'd usually be smarter to better position your team for the upcoming rounds rather than just go die a lot.

I see your points, even though I think it's still inferior to KZ2's system. Another reason is it's not easy for a low level tactician to capture an enemy spawn point, especially since new enemies are always spawning while a tac is trying to capture at an incredibly slow pace. While in Killzone 2 every single tactition can do a good job since they start off even with everyone else.

Infiltrators are ruining avery game/

Infiltrators are ruining avery game/

dvalo9

The new MW2 is a bit of a stretch

[QUOTE="W1NGMAN-"]How could GG screw up the MP of KZ3 when KZ2 was near perfection? Maybe perfection is a bit of an exaggeration but nothing major needed to be addressed in KZ2, less load times, more info displayed to a player before joining a room, easier way to party up, you know simple things that didn't involve the core game. Instead GG decided to fool around with the setup of KZ2 and managed to ruin everything that was good about KZ2 TSAs were a way to prevent frag campers of KZ2, now we simply have spawn campers due to the limited and poorly placed TSAs on the map! Each map seems to give one team the upper hand and due to this Warzone matches are ending more frequently with 5-2 scores or complete sweeps. Then theres "in game perks" where the rich get richer, not being able to mix n match abilities between classes, invisibility having no counter ... geez I can go on. KZ3 MP is an balanced piece of turd with better controls. Wish it was Socom 4 that released Feb 22 rather than this poor excuse of a "blockbuster title"Renzokucant

Best reply of the thread thus far!:lol:

[QUOTE="Renzokucant"][QUOTE="W1NGMAN-"]How could GG screw up the MP of KZ3 when KZ2 was near perfection? Maybe perfection is a bit of an exaggeration but nothing major needed to be addressed in KZ2, less load times, more info displayed to a player before joining a room, easier way to party up, you know simple things that didn't involve the core game. Instead GG decided to fool around with the setup of KZ2 and managed to ruin everything that was good about KZ2 TSAs were a way to prevent frag campers of KZ2, now we simply have spawn campers due to the limited and poorly placed TSAs on the map! Each map seems to give one team the upper hand and due to this Warzone matches are ending more frequently with 5-2 scores or complete sweeps. Then theres "in game perks" where the rich get richer, not being able to mix n match abilities between classes, invisibility having no counter ... geez I can go on. KZ3 MP is an balanced piece of turd with better controls. Wish it was Socom 4 that released Feb 22 rather than this poor excuse of a "blockbuster title"sanim02

Best reply of the thread thus far!:lol:

[QUOTE="Pug-Nasty"]

[QUOTE="FIipMode"]

It is disappointing when you write out clearly why the game is inferior all you get as a response is "stop crying" or "you just suck at the game".

FIipMode

The reasons are written out, but they aren't clear. The classes only seem unbalanced if your team isn't using all of them. Most of what he wrote sounds like it's coming from someone who is unwilling to learn the subtleties of a new game.

The TSA's are an improvement over the grenades IMO. The fight for TSAs is another level of game on top of whatever objective is going on, and really makes it feel like the side with the most team work is the one that wins.

You shouldn't be spawning at the base and running to the objective if they have all the TSAs, or they are spawn camping the one you do have. You should be switching to Tac or maybe engineer escorting a Tac and gaining ground for your team. You don't have to win every round, and it'd usually be smarter to better position your team for the upcoming rounds rather than just go die a lot.

I see your points, even though I think it's still inferior to KZ2's system. Another reason is it's not easy for a low level tactician to capture an enemy spawn point, especially since new enemies are always spawning while a tac is trying to capture at an incredibly slow pace. While in Killzone 2 every single tactition can do a good job since they start off even with everyone else.

That's the brilliance of the leveling system in KZ3. You never even have to touch a class until it's fully maxed out. Unlike in KZ2 where you had to suffer long periods of uselessness with each class before they unlocked their abilities.

[QUOTE="Luxen90"]

Oh and matches in Killzone 3 can easily turn into mortar spam. I've had teammates do it on Graveyard and the ice level. It's pretty bad in the Graveyard level, because you toss that in their spawn and there is no chance that they'll escape.

FIipMode

Infiltrators are ruining avery game/

dvalo9

How? Its pretty easy to see through the disguise.

When I realized that you didn't have to control your shots anymore, that's when I uninstalled the beta, and canceled my preorder. And, that hit me like a truck. I was like, "Oh, snap. I understand why I was getting the weirdest deaths now. It's because I was trying to burst fire, while my opponent was just going full auto." Silly me.

You got punished hardcore for doing that in KZ2. No matter the distance, that was a bad move.
Don't get me wrong, though. If that was the only thing I didn't like, I could have let it slide. Less players, health/bullet damage, brutal melee, spawn on squad, gun distribution, etc. Gaaahhh!

I'll get this game later in the year after it gets some patches that are clearly due.
It's not worth it to me right now.

violent_spinal

im kinda confused are you saying you were punished in KZ2 for not aiming down the sights and just hip firing? If so I disagree since I got kills easly in KZ2 by just hipfiring full auto.

[QUOTE="dvalo9"]

Infiltrators are ruining avery game/

finalfantasy94

How? Its pretty easy to see through the disguise.

I get killed by infiltrators sometimes but its usually my fault for not paying attention (They don't appear as green dots on the radar). However, the Marksman class really makes me rage. There is no counter at all to a guy sitting in the corner of a room while invisible with a Proxy Mine at every doorway

[QUOTE="dvalo9"]

Infiltrators are ruining avery game/

finalfantasy94

How? Its pretty easy to see through the disguise.